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View Full Version : Tanking Wait, [warrior] tanks are speccing into blood craze now?



Umadbro
11-10-2010, 03:08 AM
Honestly this is a degraded version of blood draining. Ok, come cata when healers will apparantly be mana conserving I can see a use for it.

The ONLY time this talent will be useful at 80 is if you are fortunate enough to have it proc at low health with no incomming heals for a second as overhealing pretty much renders this useless for the majority of the fight. It's 10% so even in ICC now that's 7-8k health over 5 sec or 1.6 a tick.

Looking at the scenerio now, burst threat tends to be the bigger issue especially in a tight dps fight, so it would seem like war accademy or cruelty would be the better option.

MellvarTank
11-10-2010, 07:40 AM
Being that there currently is no 'spam' healer left in the game, care to back this up with some math?

Sifer
11-10-2010, 08:25 PM
I have been thinking of speccing out of Blood Craze after going over the WOL of recent raids.

On trash it doesnt do bad since I am getting hit alot.

However come bosses which is when your actually going to need the healing, certainly in end game tanking gear, it just doesnt cut it.

I was healed 15k by Blood Craze on PP hc when I was tanking PP for phases 1 and 2 aswell as probably 40% to half of phase 3.

41k on Sindragosa Hc.

Yes its maybe bonus healing and added survivavility but I see it as very poor return for 3 Talent Points when it comes to use in a raid setting.

Im sure it has a bit more uptime in 5 mans but given 5 mans at the moment and the lack of aoe tanking in the expansion It might not get any better.

Other places to spend the points?

The choices as I see It would be 3 points in War Academy or 1 in War Academy and 2 in Cruelty.

Having checked the numbers from logs I seem to be running at around 10-11% crit shield slams in raids.

So 2 points in Cruelty would pretty much double my crit chance with the extra 5% damage on HS for the left over point, as an added benefit, it just seems to be the way to go.

Guess this calls for some testing.

Come the expansion, I can only really see the talent being of more than a little benefit to survivability if bosses hit very fast like the dual wielding bosses we have had only occasionally in wotlk, Algalon, Twin Valk's while a shield is up etc

klausi
11-10-2010, 09:55 PM
Don't forget that there is a nerf incoming in a future patch (from 9% to 3.6% with field dressing). So you ticks with clvl 85 won't be much higher than your ticks outside of icc: about 1kish.

Sifer
11-11-2010, 05:35 AM
Well as soon as I shut down my pc It hit me why I would be seeing quite so low healing.

I thought maybe partial hits eg Blocks would be proc the heal.

I guess that isnt the case.

Given the amount of avoidence I have and that I have quite a bit of mastery, although not quite unhittable, That would have drastically reduced my non blocked or non avoided attacks.

Given the avoidence and mastery rating required per percent looks like its going to increase quite steeply in the expansion we should see a bigger amount of heals once the expansion comes with the talent getting progressively less procs as we get better and better gear and closer and closer to unhittable again.

So I will spec out of it now and then maybe test it out again at level 85.

Krays
11-11-2010, 06:58 AM
I still dont believe its worth speccing out of blood craze , it will be very powerful when you have like 150k hp(even with the nerf to beta blood craze) and its takes a healers 3 max rank heals to top you off, but from what i heard from speaking to healers is that blizzard has greatly exaggerated the mana will matter thing. IN beta right now, palas are spamming what ever heal they want once they start getting some epics, they claim tank damage isnt very bursty and is relatively low, allowing them to never really worry about mana once they get rid of some blues. Read the article on hydramist if you want to know more.

heres an extract...

/start
Gear Changes Everything

There have been a few phases of premade characters thus far in the beta, from fresh 85s to fully raid geared (non-heroic) characters. The latest premade characters, having full raid epics, are so strong that mana conservation is pretty much gone.
I know gear is supposed to make things easier, but literally you can end fights with full mana… at least as a Paladin. With mana becoming this much of a joke during the first tier of raiding is pretty concerning. All of the initial epic pieces give healers a ton of Spirit, through set bonuses or procs. You can reforge out of spirit and into throughput stats instead. Even still, you’ll have more than enough mana to play with…
Making mana matter is, in my opinion, never going to play out throughout an entire expansion. Initially, we’re going to need to watch our mana bar. As we pick up epic gear, things will get so ridiculous in terms of regen that choice of which spell you use if going to be your only concern.


/end

Bashal
11-11-2010, 07:05 AM
Assuming that what Krays said is just a beta balancing issue, which will be corrected on live:

My thought was that at 80, with mana still not at a premium for healers, blood craze would be a lot of overheal (or push the healer's heals into overheal). I'd definitely take it for progression raiding at 85, or even for solo leveling as prot, or solo farming older content.

Right now though, my prot warrior skipped it.

Umadbro
11-12-2010, 02:20 AM
Gear Changes Everything

There have been a few phases of premade characters thus far in the beta, from fresh 85s to fully raid geared (non-heroic) characters. The latest premade characters, having full raid epics, are so strong that mana conservation is pretty much gone.
I know gear is supposed to make things easier, but literally you can end fights with full mana… at least as a Paladin. With mana becoming this much of a joke during the first tier of raiding is pretty concerning. All of the initial epic pieces give healers a ton of Spirit, through set bonuses or procs. You can reforge out of spirit and into throughput stats instead. Even still, you’ll have more than enough mana to play with…
Making mana matter is, in my opinion, never going to play out throughout an entire expansion. Initially, we’re going to need to watch our mana bar. As we pick up epic gear, things will get so ridiculous in terms of regen that choice of which spell you use if going to be your only concern.


/end

That only strengthens the arguemnt for us to specc out of blood craze, since just as the poster above has pointed out, most of it will be overheal, and the rare occasions it will not, it will simply be infused and forgotten amoung the "steady damage" and huge heals tanks are receiving.

MellvarTank
11-12-2010, 07:39 AM
it will simply be infused and forgotten amoung the "steady damage" and huge heals tanks are receiving.

Which is the point exactly. If you notice it, it is over powered whereas if you don't, then it is well balanced. If it does nothing, then it is worthless. The last time I used it and victory rush in a spec, it out-performed victory rush substantially.

I'm not saying it makes a huge difference, I'm saying wait until cata goes live before you write off the talent or at least have some kind of math to back it up instead of just claiming it is crap.

Reev
11-12-2010, 07:48 AM
I was surprised. Last night it accounted for 3.7% of total effective healing done on me during the Lich King. A total of 173k healing, or 125k effective healing. By comparison, Flash of light did only 346k effective healing to me during the fight, which was the highest healing ability used on me.

http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/17004453#damageout

Sifer
11-12-2010, 09:09 AM
That is a decent amount of healing.

I havent checked out you on the new armory to see what mastery you have, and sadly I dont use WMO so I have no idea how to find blocked hits or even if its possible to find them.

Im around 5 or 6% block above you if I use the block amount on the old armory and noticed a dramatic difference in the amount healed.

In terms of healing , dont forget you also got heals from the Beacon which means you were getting healed quite possibly with the Other tank getting the flash of light.

Also Paladins use a bigger variety of heals now than they did previously.

But as I mentioned a few posts above, the skill's usefulness varies alot dependant on gear and especially the level of mastery you have.

For me atleast until I overgear the content less its not really worth the points.

As with everything that may not be the case for you.

Reev
11-12-2010, 09:25 AM
Yeah, it's possible I got lucky with the procs, and very likely that the 6% difference in block causes a major difference as well.

I wasn't suggesting that Blood craze was close to the paladin's total heals or anything. I took healing from a very wide variety of spells, and flash of light in actuality, while the greatest source, only accounted for 14% of my total healing.

Still, at my gear level, which is respectable for guilds doing normal Lich King, Blood Craze isn't an insignificant amount of healing. At least until the nerf. Possibly that's why they're nerfing it, since we'll take more normal hits at the beginning of level 85, probably increasing the value of the talent significantly.

praetoria
11-12-2010, 09:41 AM
i have 79k hp buffed in icc.

7.5% = 5925 per proc.

the avg fight lasts 7 minutes.

with a 2 second swing timer that 30 melee attacks per minute and 210 per fight

at a 10% proc, that roughly 21 procs per fight ( and this assumes a short fight)

thats roughly 124,425 healing per fight. ( NOT considering magic damage)

this assumes your NOT specd into field dressing, which i am. someone else can work out the added 20% effect.

note: are wow logs accounting for bloodcraze? also, dose it account for the 20% added effect from field dressing? my logs indicate a percentage of healing done my be as "other" with no breakdown of spells.
often, the numbers there are in line with the above calculations. often, they are closer to 150K ( field dressings effect on blood craze?)

this is all very rough math, as some fights are much longer, some fights have frenzy whereas haste is buffed, exct. but unless my calculations are out right wrong, 125k per fight seems worth while to me. as specially considering the presence of avoidance and more spike damage.

i really cant see giving up this tallent for threat. im pumping out 35-40k tps as it is with vengeance stacked.

MellvarTank
11-12-2010, 09:47 AM
specially considering the presence of avoidance and more spike damage.

An avoided hit is a hit that won't proc blood craze, which will change your numbers. To be honest, avoidance will devalue this talent.

praetoria
11-12-2010, 09:49 AM
An avoided hit is a hit that won't proc blood craze, which will change your numbers. To be honest, avoidance will devalue this talent.

I understand that, i wasnt implying that avoided hits proc bloodcraze. i was just saying that with so much more spike damage, any blanket healing effect is going to bennifit healers and tanks.

Reev
11-12-2010, 09:54 AM
I understand that, i wasnt implying that avoided hits proc bloodcraze. i was just saying that with so much more spike damage, any blanket healing effect is going to bennifit healers and tanks.

Santoro, you can look at the WMO log I linked above. It includes Blood Craze. It did approximately 170k healing on the Lich King, ~45k of which was overheal.

Sipher made the point that I'm in mostly 264 gear with a couple 251s, and in his 277s with ~6% more block chance, he was seeing far smaller Blood Craze numbers.

Tengenstein
11-12-2010, 09:59 AM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses

That's my healing taken over last nights little bit of fun in ICC10HC, Blood craze come in as my third largest source of healing by spell being 11.3% of my healing taken, with a mere 14% overheal, and 15% uptime on boss fights.

I am mainly in 264s with the occiasional 277, and have at present 37.08% avoidance, 41.3% block going off my character sheet (unbuffed), with blocks avearging a 42.8% damage reduction. Dunno how much that will affect BC proccing but i am fairly sure it can proc off Blocks;
[19:02:46.155] Risen Archmage (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/39/?enc=bosses) hits Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses) 4813 (O: -1, B: 2063)
[19:02:46.167] Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses) gains Blood Craze (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/spell/16491/?enc=bosses) from Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses)

and partial resists;
[19:11:39.079] Gluttonous Abomination (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/45/?enc=bosses) Gut Spray (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/spell/72025/?enc=bosses) Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses) 2026 (O: -1, R: 250)
[19:11:39.445] Lucita (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/9/?enc=bosses) Prayer of Mending (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/spell/33110/?enc=bosses) Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses) +4182
[19:11:40.101] Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses) gains Blood Craze (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/spell/16491/?enc=bosses) from Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses)
[19:11:40.101] Gluttonous Abomination (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/45/?enc=bosses) Gut Spray (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/spell/72025/?enc=bosses) Tengenstein (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/k08c2z4dfalrpsf3/details/0/?enc=bosses) 1801 (O: -1, R: 500)

I like it, i don't find threat an issue, or at least threat isn't an issue as often as me dying is. In the balance of things, I tend to die more often due to lack of heals, than i do becuase a mob broke loose and twatted a raid member.

praetoria
11-12-2010, 10:03 AM
Santoro, you can look at the WMO log I linked above. It includes Blood Craze. It did approximately 170k healing on the Lich King, ~45k of which was overheal.

Sipher made the point that I'm in mostly 264 gear with a couple 251s, and in his 277s with ~6% more block chance, he was seeing far smaller Blood Craze numbers.


I do NOT know how blocked attacks work into the equation. but i would assume "after taking ANY damage" implies that includes blocked attacks, because damage was infact taken. avoidance is different. you avoided that attack, and took no damage. i dont think blizz is as silly to exclude blocked attacks and list in the tool tip " after taking any damage".

sure, avoidance takes about 30# of melee attacks off the table, but in almost all fights, 30% or much more of the damage taken is magic damage, which cant be avoided, so the calculation still holds.

also consider your not using worldoflogs.com. your using another site. perhaps your site is updated and wowlogs isnt.

but to say that 6% block is making that much of a difference, id have to see proof of that. im in all 264/277 gear. and the returns im seeing above are inline with my calculations above.

Sifer
11-12-2010, 10:09 AM
Given it does only proc after a hit that does help with it being more effective healing and that it scales with Health even better.

If your not going to be blocking or avoiding most attacks it would have a decent uptime.

Its that its counter to what you would want from a talent I dont like.

About swapping it for a threat talent, I agree threat with vengence stacked up when figthing a raid boss is at a situation when you can pretty much afk the later half of fights.

Burst threat is however still slow even with MD's and tricks especially if you open up with BL and the dps nuke with everything they have.

Tengenstein
11-12-2010, 10:14 AM
it does proc from Blocks however, probably shares the same proc mechanic as UO stacking does

EDIT; but yeah if you Overgear the content there's no point, might as well maximise your DPS once your survivability has reached the nigh unkillable level.

Sifer
11-12-2010, 10:19 AM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iqi0e2e8idllvmw8/details/5/?s=11356&e=11617

This weeks Sindragosa , It healed a bit more than the 41k I mentioned in one of the earlier posts although not by a huge amount.

I didnt main tank on every fight this week.

Spreading the duties around helps keep the tank team happy.

Im not sure if it is just down the the logging site but from everything the log shows it just doesnt proc alot at all on boses.

My only explaination for it, was down to Blocking not proccing Blood Craze

praetoria
11-12-2010, 10:20 AM
Given it does only proc after a hit that does help with it being more effective healing and that it scales with Health even better.

If your not going to be blocking or avoiding most attacks it would have a decent uptime.

Its that its counter to what you would want from a talent I dont like.

About swapping it for a threat talent, I agree threat with vengence stacked up when figthing a raid boss is at a situation when you can pretty much afk the later half of fights.

Burst threat is however still slow even with MD's and tricks especially if you open up with BL and the dps nuke with everything they have.

i dont care how much you crit in the first 10 seconds of the fight.. it could be 100%... the attacks are still based on attack power. a crit ss will hit for about 7-14 k without vengeance stacked ( 7 without shield block, 14 with).

part of the point here is blocked attacks still accound for "any damage taken" so blocked attacks are still on the table.

for a more detailed picture:

-we will use a 60-40 ratio magic/melee

with a 2 sec swing timer, assume 30% of melee attacks were avoided or blocked.

30% of 40% = 12% of total attacks that will not proc the ability.

88% of damage taken procs the ability.

for fights like cindy, 70% of all damage is magic damage.. that means roughly 8% of damage taken is subject to not proc the ability.

i still see this ability as nothing but a big help

Sifer
11-12-2010, 10:25 AM
Yeah maybe Sindragosa wasnt the best example which is why I check other bosses aswell.

That is however a pretty much 1 tank fight till the end phase aswell as being one of the longer fights.

I dont doubt that for you, you may have more use of it than me but other than for trash it seems a very poor return for me personally.

praetoria
11-12-2010, 10:27 AM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-iqi0e2e8idllvmw8/details/5/?s=11356&e=11617

This weeks Sindragosa , It healed a bit more than the 41k I mentioned in one of the earlier posts although not by a huge amount.

I didnt main tank on every fight this week.

Spreading the duties around helps keep the tank team happy.

Im not sure if it is just down the the logging site but from everything the log shows it just doesnt proc alot at all on boses.

My only explaination for it, was down to Blocking not proccing Blood Craze

from what i see


your guild is pro at this fight..

the entire fight was under 6 minutes.

so less time on the rng

furthermore, the fight is split tanked , taking what looks like 33% of the fights occuring damage off of you.

in percentage healing done, you actually beat my cindy attempts by a full 1%.. the proc rate was actually better for you, however, the environments were very different..

praetoria
11-12-2010, 10:31 AM
Yeah maybe Sindragosa wasnt the best example which is why I check other bosses aswell.

That is however a pretty much 1 tank fight till the end phase aswell as being one of the longer fights.

I dont doubt that for you, you may have more use of it than me but other than for trash it seems a very poor return for me personally.


but its not a 1 tank fight. you took roughly 1.4mill damage, the other tank took roughly 700k. unless hes really bad at iceblocks ( which cant be the case, otherwise he would be dead), the proc rate is still inline with the projections. mathmaticly, theres no reason i can discover to not take it.

Sifer
11-12-2010, 10:32 AM
The fight was short I agree however that is one of the longer fights hence why I chose that fight , The previous week was the 6 minute one, I know the fights are RNG but I have very little to no procs on all the bosses and thats been the case as far as I can tell since taking the talent after the patch.

The healing done by Blood Craze on that Sindra Kill was about 3% of my damage which yes its healing but that accounts for less than 4 average Flash of lights, of which over half of the Blood Craze healing was Overheal.

praetoria
11-12-2010, 10:36 AM
10% is 10% no matter how you look at it.. your still accounting for 4-5% of overall healing done, your still helping your healers by normallizing the damage incomming

what did you expect? your self healing to account for 25% of overall healing? lol the ability isnt ment to be op, its ment to circumvent large damage spikes, which its doing well for your healers.

Sifer
11-12-2010, 10:47 AM
I guess I expected a little bit more the proc chance just seems a little low and I was hoping to see into maybe the 6 figure heals.

It wasnt far off a one tank fight im just pretty good on blocks and was in frost ress gear so didnt spike as bad in the final phase.

Biogi only took 4 melee hits In the whole fight which is about a 10% of what I took and he took 0 cleaves.

Either way Its upto everyone to make their mind up on the Talent and I still dont think personally its all that great.

praetoria
11-12-2010, 11:02 AM
I guess I expected a little bit more the proc chance just seems a little low and I was hoping to see into maybe the 6 figure heals.

It wasnt far off a one tank fight im just pretty good on blocks and was in frost ress gear so didnt spike as bad in the final phase.

Biogi only took 4 melee hits In the whole fight which is about a 10% of what I took and he took 0 cleaves.

Either way Its upto everyone to make their mind up on the Talent and I still dont think personally its all that great.

my logs and a few others who have posted show 6 figure heals. but low 6s... not 500k. thats just op.. paladins lost the argent o ship button because it was op. 500k self heals would also be op.

and it may seem small, but in reality, he took 30% of the damage.

all im saying is that several of the oppinions your making arent supported by the math behind the confrentations. by no means am i saying " YOU MUST LIKE THIS!!"... not at all.. im just trying to give you perspective on what your looking at.

if you have a fight spicific gear set for every fight in the game and you havent died in icc since the 20% buff then awsome. you have the content on farm and do what ever makes you happy. specing for threat or survival really makes zero difference at that point. but if your working on h 25 lk or ruby, and your seeing huge damage spikes like everyone else working on those fights, or if your still running icc as progression content, then the ability is more or less a staple in your spec.

finally, there is a threat multiplier on bloodcraze.. wartotem did the workup in the warr threat values thread.

Tengenstein
11-12-2010, 11:09 AM
I thinks thats the key point, if your healers are having no problems keeping you topped off the talent is pretty worthless. But in the same logic, if you're not having aggro problems then the alternatives to BC are pretty meh.

Yours Sifer was up for 23% of the fight, that not exactly bad uptime, with only 3 seconds or so where you overwrit the proc

praetoria
11-12-2010, 12:04 PM
I thinks thats the key point, if your healers are having no problems keeping you topped off the talent is pretty worthless. But in the same logic, if you're not having aggro problems then the alternatives to BC are pretty meh.

Yours Sifer was up for 23% of the fight, that not exactly bad uptime, with only 3 seconds or so where you overwrit the proc



i havent seen anyone with real threat problems since 4.0. only snap threat, which has to do with vengeance and nothing else. its just how the game is designed right now. the most common problem right now is keeping tanks alive.

but i do agree, that if you over gear the content your raiding, options at this point are pretty much meh

Bodasafa
11-12-2010, 05:50 PM
Honestly this is a degraded version of blood draining. Ok, come cata when healers will apparantly be mana conserving I can see a use for it.

The ONLY time this talent will be useful at 80 is if you are fortunate enough to have it proc at low health with no incomming heals for a second as overhealing pretty much renders this useless for the majority of the fight. It's 10% so even in ICC now that's 7-8k health over 5 sec or 1.6 a tick.

Looking at the scenerio now, burst threat tends to be the bigger issue especially in a tight dps fight, so it would seem like war accademy or cruelty would be the better option.

As a tank your primary goal is to survive. This means self healing talents are practically mandatory if you are min/maxing for progression (unless Blizzard guts them to the point they suck). The couple talents you could pick up over these self healing ones are not going to make you some sort of tank threat god or awesome DPS. Frankly if your having threat issues you either have a L2Play problem or Blizzard is bending you over currently.

In any event if your not progression tanking then you don't need to min/max and will be able to handle normal modes just fine with whatever spec you feel the best with (blizzard has said as much).

Nehama
11-13-2010, 02:19 AM
Just a lil' tip for you warrior tanks who want a bit more threat on pulls - use recklessness before the pull.

Granted, it looks "OMG, I'll take more damage", but it's usually just one or two hits with 20% damage more on you. On a pull, healers can usually cope with that, and your brust threat will do wonders. Not to mention it also rises your vegence faster :)

Bodasafa
11-13-2010, 08:01 AM
Just a lil' tip for you warrior tanks who want a bit more threat on pulls - use recklessness before the pull.

Granted, it looks "OMG, I'll take more damage", but it's usually just one or two hits with 20% damage more on you. On a pull, healers can usually cope with that, and your brust threat will do wonders. Not to mention it also rises your vegence faster :)

Correct me if I am wrong but last I checked you have to be in Zerker stance to use Recklessness. So not only are you taking +20% damage from Reck, your taking an additional 10% from the stance. +30% EXTRA damage off the pull is not something a tank should be trying to accomplish.

Its much safer to tell the DPS to hold their wad for a couple of seconds or simply laugh at them when they face plant.

Bovinity
11-13-2010, 08:17 AM
Any healing should be useful, but I'm having a hard time seeing where a very unreliable HoT with low uptime on bosses is going to be all that interesting, regardless of how much it actually heals for over the course of a night. It won't scale very well with gear at all or will scale negatively (More HP = bigger HoT, but more avoidance = fewer procs) and it probably only contributes to other healers' overhealing.

Granted, that's assuming the WotLK model. If Cataclysm really does have a much slower paced "not always topped off" damage model for tanks, then yeah I can see where the HoT might be useful. Still not really all that sold on it.


Just a lil' tip for you warrior tanks who want a bit more threat on pulls - use recklessness before the pull.

It's true that you'll probably burn through the Recklessness charges - and thus the 20% damage debuff - within 2/3 globals. But I'd still rather not take 20% more damage to get a few crits. If someone is having so much trouble with threat that they're willing to do that, they need to talk to their DPS or work on their own TPS.

praetoria
11-13-2010, 12:20 PM
Any healing should be useful, but I'm having a hard time seeing where a very unreliable HoT with low uptime on bosses is going to be all that interesting, regardless of how much it actually heals for over the course of a night. It won't scale very well with gear at all or will scale negatively (More HP = bigger HoT, but more avoidance = fewer procs) and it probably only contributes to other healers' overhealing.

Granted, that's assuming the WotLK model. If Cataclysm really does have a much slower paced "not always topped off" damage model for tanks, then yeah I can see where the HoT might be useful. Still not really all that sold on it.



It's true that you'll probably burn through the Recklessness charges - and thus the 20% damage debuff - within 2/3 globals. But I'd still rather not take 20% more damage to get a few crits. If someone is having so much trouble with threat that they're willing to do that, they need to talk to their DPS or work on their own TPS.

slice it, dice it, do what ever you want with it.. its still a 10% proc rate. all the math ive done above is as of today, so speaking relative to todays raiding environment,rule #1 is always survivability. the dynamic of surviving has changed slightly, in that spike damage is much more present. any blanket effect is aid to your healers that are trying to handle keeping you alive, and that is what seems to be the intention of the proc. ive seen tanks drop to 3k health in h lk fights, and ruby, and any boss that is still considered progression. the same applies to anyone who dosnt overgear the conent they are running. sure, its not op. but i remember being pretty pissed that paladins were prefered over warriors in much of wrath simply because the AD proc ment even if the tank made a mistake, a passive ability would save the day. at least now we are getting some attention. this is kind of like saying " damage shield wasnt worth it" . bc also have a threat multiplier.

as for snap threat, aggro is not a problem today unless your dps are well.... bad. I belive vengeance is going to redefine raiding in wow. OMEN, aggro reducing abilities, efficient target changing, and so on, are all going to reshape what " a good dps" means to a raid. this machanic has been neglected for a long time now, and blizzard has made clear that the current format is not what was intended.

reckless not only breaks rule #1, but also results in less then expected returns.

assuming your 3 crits are ss, dev, and hs ( if rev isnt procd) your looking at a 7-14k ss(depending on the use of sb), a 4-6k dev, and roughly the same for hs.

that is not going to hold aggro off a fire breathing mage, a heroic strike smacking fury warrior, or a star falling boomkin. its just not going to happen.

in terms of survival, its kinda like roulette. because if your spot healer is cought off guard, your eaither forced to waste a cd or die.

as for cata, ive heard all sorts of things.. bc will proc vr, and things like that, but until cata hits theres no use in speculating. there is almost an infinate number of possibilities that blizz can throw at us given the changes they are implementing. but theres no use in dabating them at this time.

Kavaren
11-13-2010, 03:05 PM
Just going to preface this: I've only used Blood Craze to MT Halion top side and farm old bosses/dungeons solo.

On Halion I tank the dragon and the big inferno up top for several minutes and it ends up only healing 30-70k with 75% overheal (along with field dressing). This is a situation where threat/dmg talents are mostly irrelevant, and also where you have fewer healers than most raids. It might be amazing tanking bottom (twilight realm), but then a DK owns that which is what my guild uses.The healing in old dungeons is amazing I must say. It might be useful on a few lower WotLK fights, but then they are easy to heal anyway.

Now for the dope: On every other fight in the expansion you should be going for max damage/threat.

In the current build of the game you don't need that much survival boost, you need to burn the bosses/adds down down. ICC has been out for coming up on a year and subject to several other nerfs. RS is easy as hell on normal, and heroic is mostly a focus issue. You don't get records on WoL from buying field dressing/blood craze or even gag order. I spec into those only for my role on Halion - if I were on adds I would use a very different build.

I would only use time theorycrafting on this once lvl 85 raiding starts. For now, I would use a single-target boss spec emphasizing heroic strike/shield slam damage and an aoe spec (w/blood and thunder, war academy, thunderstruck).

Tengenstein
11-13-2010, 05:19 PM
I spec BC+FD

I scored 4th for Prot warriors on Val10 HC on WoL. I don't beleive as Prot i should be going out there with the aim to be ranked on WoL doesn't tell me anything, i could be doing all kinds of bad tanking to get my DPS up.

Nevertheless the value of this BC is entirely dependant on your healers, the stronger your healers are the weaker the talent is, and vice versa. If you out gear the content then yes, survivabilty isn't an issue so this talent is crap. when survivabilty is an issue this talent is golden.

and BnT is still meh, other than P1 LK where you don't burn the adds its either end up with all the adds dead before you can get more than a tic or two of rend.

Bashal
11-15-2010, 07:51 AM
when survivabilty is an issue this talent is golden.

That really sums it up, right there.

Brutyx
11-15-2010, 07:10 PM
i really cant see giving up this tallent for threat. im pumping out 35-40k tps as it is with vengeance stacked.
^ This man knows his stuff. Threat shouldn't be an issue for any prot warriors if you're doing it right. In fights like H Sindy, I've had Blood Craze proc and save my life from her melee swings, and got healed up before the next Frost Breath.