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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot - The Hardcore 10-Man Guild



Lore
11-09-2010, 05:04 PM
5mGtQtnexT4

Bashyou
11-09-2010, 06:38 PM
devolore@gmail.com not on the video. It is missing. So..............
Anyways. Thank you for this video. My guild has been talking about becoming a casual raiding guild in cat and we have been tlaking about what loot system to use. I think this really cleared things up for us.

cartmanrulez10
11-09-2010, 06:59 PM
lol at you playing angry birds at the beginning.

Baelaron
11-09-2010, 08:27 PM
Hey Lore,

I figured I could shine a little light on this, as my guild is looking at 10man hardcore for Cata. We've been working along this model since ICC opened, though pre-4.0 we still organized a 25-man with other guilds for the sake of higher level loot.

The guild came about as a result of people getting tired of working with lazy and/or unreliable raiders. Since BC I, like I'm sure most players, have been making a list of people who were good raiders that I liked playing with. Ineveitably with guild breakups and people getting burntout you loose touch or don't raid with them, but you still know they are out there. I was talking with 3 of these people about a year ago and we came to the conclusion that 10man raiding was viable as a progression setup (though obviously easier at the time due to 25man loot). Between the 4 of us we knew we could bring in 10-12 excellent, and pleasant, raiders. That was basically the birth of the guild. All of us were sick of having to play with people we didn't get on with in order to do 25mans.

The guild went thru an unfortunate growing phase, where we grew to be 2 10-man groups because some one wanted to bring some one they liked etc etc. As with any 2 team setup, 1 team does better and jealousy ensues. Once things started to come apart, the original group decided to reform the original guild again, with the understanding that we wouldn't be having more than 1 10man group running.

Since then things have been going well.

The biggest advantages I've found have been as much social as playwise. We only ever recruit one person at a time, and even that is a rarity usually brought about because someone had real life problems that kept them away. As a result that one person can be vetted quite well, for personality conflicts as well as playing skill and dedication.

This has big payoffs with the loot process. We have (rather unbalanced I know) 3 warriors, both tanks and a fury. However, since we each respect the other and want to help the group as a whole we have more problems with people going "No you take it / No you / No YOU" than we do with arguements over who's turn it is.

In conclusion, what I've found is that a 10man guild can work very well, but it is even more reliant on each person. It allows you to vet your recruits easily, and you rarely need to find more than one at a time. Control of the social side of guild is easier, which can lead to a better raid atmosphere. I've found it has really improved my raiding experience.

However, even 1 person missing can screw the raid for that day and an effective replacement is less likely to work. I would warn against it if you value a highly competitive environment, as you will likely have no one to truly compete against. I've found 10man raiding to be more of a "common good" environment, since it is rare that loot has more than 1 person going for it, and if even 1 person falls behind the effect is very noticeable.

Petninja
11-09-2010, 09:59 PM
...get get get get over it.

Krays
11-09-2010, 11:28 PM
Is this your way of telling your guild that half of them are getting the boot? :P

In other words is Months behind gonna be a 10m guild in cata ?( was just kidding on that 1st question im sure you handle everything professionally).

Rawer
11-10-2010, 12:40 AM
Ok, you talked about like how could it be done ... but I imagine you wouldn't talk about it if you didn't thought of doing this, so how will you do it ?
What makes a guild or raid hardcore in the end ? Or how hardcore can you be ?
My thoughts:
Hardcore is picking the most comitted players with the best skills and best gear.
You can't be 10-12 friends and become hardcore, but you need to be 12 hardcore players that maybe become friends (atleast in wow).
15 persons rooster: 15 is too much, 12-13 at most, 5 persons to replace/sit-out it's getting away from the word "hardcore".
Classes: being hardcore means you need the best classes with the best specs, 5 paladin friends is getting away from the word "hardcore" again.But having mages and locks it's too, because you basically need hybrids for those dual-specs you talked in the end and getting 2 sets of equal ilvl gear will be more difficult.

What will happen is this, the 10 man hardcore guilds won't exist ... because of the raid lockouts ... there will be what exists now to an extent, the 10 men MAIN group, that's the 10 best hardcores that gear tanks/healers first, that gear up faster, that go into and learn the HC fights first, that raid 25s too next week or after clearing 10 man. There will be 10 men strict guilds, progressing thru only 10 men content but not "hardcore" to the end.

Krays
11-10-2010, 01:42 AM
Ok, you talked about like how could it be done ... but I imagine you wouldn't talk about it if you didn't thought of doing this, so how will you do it ?
What makes a guild or raid hardcore in the end ? Or how hardcore can you be ?
My thoughts:
Hardcore is picking the most comitted players with the best skills and best gear.
You can't be 10-12 friends and become hardcore, but you need to be 12 hardcore players that maybe become friends (atleast in wow).
15 persons rooster: 15 is too much, 12-13 at most, 5 persons to replace/sit-out it's getting away from the word "hardcore".
Classes: being hardcore means you need the best classes with the best specs, 5 paladin friends is getting away from the word "hardcore" again.But having mages and locks it's too, because you basically need hybrids for those dual-specs you talked in the end and getting 2 sets of equal ilvl gear will be more difficult.

What will happen is this, the 10 man hardcore guilds won't exist ... because of the raid lockouts ... there will be what exists now to an extent, the 10 men MAIN group, that's the 10 best hardcores that gear tanks/healers first, that gear up faster, that go into and learn the HC fights first, that raid 25s too next week or after clearing 10 man. There will be 10 men strict guilds, progressing thru only 10 men content but not "hardcore" to the end.

Honestly a proper thru and thru hardcore 10 raid guild will have a larger rosta than you think, they will have about 22 people at least, and run up to 3 10 mans a week (using alts to make up numbers, during farming/(normal waiting for heroicto be available periods). They will settle in to one main raid during intense Heroic raids.

They will want the large rosta for faster gearing and opportunities for stacked groups. Hardcore guilds always have people benched/waiting outside, i doubt that will change for 10 mans, well thats what groups aiming for world top 10 will be doing anyway, for top 100 could get away with the smaller rosta. Paragon ran 3 25mans for icc when heroic wasnt available, and they ran two when they did, and 1 for when LK HC was there. This allowed them to be world No1 (well that and their skill ofc), alot of guilds would have taken note of that by now, and will be following suit come cata.

xeno
11-10-2010, 04:51 AM
humm, is that a subliminal message at 13:15? :o

nawka
11-10-2010, 05:00 AM
i watched the marmot on 10 man raiding guilds but i have a question how would you go about not showing favourtism to other guild memebers?I know with every guild there will be those selected few who will always go no matter what how could that issue be resolved in a smart way without causing any major issues?

Thanx

Lore
11-10-2010, 05:09 AM
...get get get get over it.

<3

Rawer
11-10-2010, 05:38 AM
Honestly a proper thru and thru hardcore 10 raid guild will have a larger rosta than you think, they will have about 22 people at least, and run up to 3 10 mans a week (using alts to make up numbers, during farming/(normal waiting for heroicto be available periods). They will settle in to one main raid during intense Heroic raids.
Yeah, they could be 100 or the capped 1000 ... there will still only be a MAIN 10 men with 2-3 reserves that will do things first.



They will want the large rosta for faster gearing and opportunities for stacked groups. Hardcore guilds always have people benched/waiting outside, i doubt that will change for 10 mans, well thats what groups aiming for world top 10 will be doing anyway, for top 100 could get away with the smaller rosta. Paragon ran 3 25mans for icc when heroic wasnt available, and they ran two when they did, and 1 for when LK HC was there. This allowed them to be world No1 (well that and their skill ofc), alot of guilds would have taken note of that by now, and will be following suit come cata.


10- and 25- man raids in Cataclysm will share the same lockout
10- and 25- man bosses will be close in difficulty
10- and 25- man bosses will drop the exact same items

So they won't be able to do that anymore. Plus running 25 mans kindda cuts you out of being a 10 man guild.

Berzerker
11-10-2010, 06:53 AM
Classes: being hardcore means you need the best classes with the best specs, 5 paladin friends is getting away from the word "hardcore" again.But having mages and locks it's too, because you basically need hybrids for those dual-specs you talked in the end and getting 2 sets of equal ilvl gear will be more difficult.

if a group is going to be hardcore, they are hardly going to simply discount every "straight dps" class from joining, just because they can't swap to a tank or healing role when needed. Particularly Hunters will be fairly necessary for the dynamic raid buffing their pets allow. Finding an optimal setup for raid buffs and complementing styles will be a big hurdle for hard-core 10 man groups, because there tends to be so much less room for error in a 10 man fight. Players only setup to fill one role may be more likely to have to sit, though, since they're only able to fill one position, and competing against everyone else that can fill that position... Hybrids are still competing against everyone else, but have more positions generally available that they can offer to fill (subject to gearing).

While my guild isn't by any means "hard-core progression", but we were 10-man strict for pretty much all of ToC and ICC and strived to see how far we could get (we lost our strict after we 4.0.1 when we brought in several guys alts that had run 25 GDKP runs, so we could use the guild UI for checking professions). We constantly ran into the "missing person" problem, where a player not being on meant a large-scale fiasco to try and get a raid going. You do have to carry 2-3 extra players in order to make sure you have 10 each week, but when all 13 show up, it's standard drama of who's going to sit. When it's 11 or maybe 12 people, you can usually get a volunteer.

Even when getting volunteers, you run into issues with tanks and healers being the more rare roles, and the folks in those positions rarely get the chance to sit (even when they want to) -- mostly because (a) no one wanted the position originally was how they got it, and (b) no one else has gear that's as good as the people doing it all the time, because they obviously get the better gear first.

With that said, the new flexible lockout system makes it MUCH easier to carry a few more extra people (like probably 15-20), because now the "extra" people don't have to sit around and do NOTHING while everyone else goes and raids... they can not only go PUG into a raid (or "alt raids" on another night are also feasible), they can PUG into the very same raid the rest of the group is doing, as long as they don't kill any bosses the main raid won't be attempting or will be uncertain to finish, so that they can simply roll into the guild group later in the lockout when it's their turn to raid. It'll be a bit of juggling as far as knowing which bosses you're going to want to try to avoid hitting in a pug, or probably a really big pain trying to find a PUG later in the week if you're already locked out of some bosses, but something most people will be able to at least work around in some capacity, with a bit less drama/impact than in days past.

Tressym
11-10-2010, 06:56 AM
Our guild is about the farthest thing from hardcore as a guild could be. But we did recently make the decision to change from 25-man raiding to strictly 10-man raiding. When it comes to gear we more often face the "No, you take it" problem. Honestly, there have been times when I've had to tell them to roll for it and the lowest roll takes it. In the rare event that two or more players actually want a piece of gear we simply do random rolls. Then if another piece drops that they want the person who won the previous roll usually sits out the roll this time.

But then again, our guild is full of really laid back people. In our three years of existence I can only remember there being one argument over gear. And that was from a little kid who had just joined the guild and quit immediately there after. He got mad because a group that had been raiding in Kara for the evening wouldn't drop someone and let him in on the Prince fight. And a piece of gear he really wanted (I believe it was a polearm that a lot of hunters wanted) dropped.

Bashal
11-10-2010, 08:48 AM
how would you go about not showing favourtism to other guild memebers?I know with every guild there will be those selected few who will always go no matter what how could that issue be resolved in a smart way without causing any major issues?

Thanx

I find what most people see as favoritism is actually loyalty.

The guildie who is a solid player, has excellent attendance, and has been around for a while tends to get picked. The guy on the outisde calls it favoritism; I say the guildie has shown us loyalty and responsibility, and I return it in kind. More often than not, the guy crying "favoritism" has some issues, usually attendance, which causes them to be 2nd string.

You can explain that, but people who want to see things a certain way will continue to do so.

As long as you have your raiding rules set up properly (basically say explicitly that reliable people will be reliably included in raids), you can just point at that.

Quinafoi
11-10-2010, 10:34 AM
The easiest way to avoid issues, is to recruit people who don't have those issues to begin with. The vast majority of drama comes from the outside and is brought into the raid. You want to recruit people who don't have that excess baggage. Everything starts with recruitment, including the problems that arise. If there is something you are worried about, first thing you should look at is your recruitment.

Regardless of the size of your raid, problems do not manifest themselves out of nowhere. The cause is nothing more than the people in the raid. If you encounter problems, learn from them and improve your recruitment process in order to avoid recruiting players that may have similar problems they bring to the raid.

youintrouble
11-10-2010, 11:13 AM
Hello,

As I currently run a 10-man progression guild (US-Silvermoon-<Arcanists of Silvermoon>), I thought I would share some of our concepts which have helped us immensely.

Recruiting:

When at all possible, recruit from people you PuG to fill that occasional open spot. Doing it this way, you can see how a person performs in a raid, how they treat wipes, and if they have the right attitude that meshes with your core group and focus.

If you must recruit from trade, do an interview! This will tell you the maximum possible about a potential raider. Make it somewhat lengthy, but have a mind for occasional comedic relief as you don't want to overstress a person, but you do want to see how they do behave when put on-the-spot; as well as give you an idea as to the person's general patience level. Even if you don't, make sure to ask a candidate how they feel about perma-extended lockouts. This will help you rather quickly get to know whether the person is progression-minded, or just wants to ride your coat-tails for loot.

Loot:

Now when it comes to loot, what we have chosen to do (and to-date have not yet had drama) is to have 1 Mainspec, Unlimited Offspec (With Mainspec rolls taking priority). What this means is everyone will have an opportunity to upgrade their mainspec gear, but the loot has a chance to trickle-around. Now if you have, say, only one holy paladin and two pally tanks, and healy plate gear drops... so much the easier, and more often than not (if you have done proper recruiting) your raid members can easily work out need vs. greed to make sure everyone is happy. If your 10 people in raid tend to rotate fairly often in a raid week, you may want to consider restting the rolls every raid night... otherwise resetting MS roll availability every lockout-week is quite appropriate.

Leadership:

Regarding officers, we have an officer corps designed around both the raiders and non-raiders, and consists of those with demonstrated leadership ability, integrity, in-game knowledge and participation in the guild. As devolore said, leadership is a rather individual affair, but should be a happy medium between fiefdom and democracy (neither are going to work well at all in a 10-man progression guild).

That being said, hope my input was useful. Have fun, and good killing and plunder! :)

Clinical
11-10-2010, 12:01 PM
Great vid first off i have alot of friends who run in close 10man guilds and ive definitely showed them this vid if they have not checked it out themselves already. I on the other hand have been running a 10m/25m guild. We were running a more srs 10man focus with a casual 25m. Myself as well the guild decided to go the way of a more serious 25m progression route since the raidIDs are merged. I was wondering if you had any advice for any new up and coming 25m guilds for cataclysm? We've already implemented an application for our 25m core, as well knocking out our 10man raiding days and replacing them with 3 nights of icc25, just to keep people playing. As far as loot we're going to run a loot council being the guild has always trusted the officers. One last point I'm not sure if I read it on a comment on tankspot or possibly a youtube post but i feel the stigma that 25man guilds are cold and impersonal just originate from bad experiences from some people. I think its moreso a selling point whereas you have a core 25m group as opposed to a 10 you can fill a spot easier than relying on the 10-15 ppl you're rotating in and out for your 10. Plus on off raid nights I've head 10man guilds get really quiet. Anyway, great vid Lore and I'd love to hear your feedback on a new 25m cata guild.

Bodasafa
11-10-2010, 12:58 PM
This is a topic that has been in my head for quite some time as I just started my own 10 man guild with goals of competitive raiding.

Your guild structure and loot system sound very similar to the one I have set up. You can read it here:http://absoluteguild.mmoguildsites.com/pages/info

My biggest issue is figuring out the bench situation. I really don't see how I can have a roster of more than 10 "dedicated raiders". The synergy that comes from running with the same group and gearing up issues really prevents the idea of constantly swapping people in and out. For now I think the solution is to have a few "member" type people who can't fully commit to the whole raid schedule and are willing to be brought in as needed. Basically skilled raiders that have schedule conflicts or time constraints preventing them from being a full on raider.

I would be interested in hearing other takes on the bench situation if anyone (including more from Lore) has them.

ECHOHART
11-10-2010, 12:58 PM
First: I have been a long time viewer of your program and urge you to keep up the great "fing" work you do.

Second: I must say if you were a girl I would want you to have my babies. Have you considered a sex change?......Just kidding :)

Third: In response to the video of 10 man Guild. We are a 25 man raiding guild and will try to continue that in cata. Prior to the changes that Blizzard decided to make in regards to the shared raid id between 10 and 25 (Which sucks in my opinion), We would run 2 or 3 10 man teams each week. We found the Good old fashion gentleman's rule was good at distributing loot in a fair manner.

Fourth: I have searched and would like to know if there is any confirmation in regards to Achievements on world kills. Will there be a way to see if a person has killed something on 10 or 25?

swills
11-10-2010, 06:37 PM
I would be interested in hearing other takes on the bench situation if anyone (including more from Lore) has them.
My guild isn't hardcore really - we have a few server firsts at 10-man, but we're nowhere in the grand scheme of things primarily cos we're a bunch of older guys with jobs, wives, etc.

Having said that, we usually run a raidforce of 14-15 players, because we found it really sucks if some RL thing prevents you from raiding because one specific guy can't show up. When content is fresh and desirable, we might get 1-2 of those players not being able to show up for a given raid. For the remaining 12-13 who want to raid we have a sitover system, whereby you earn a "sitover point" any time you can attend a raid but are benched for the night. When we form a raid, players with fewer sitover points get priority. You only get a sitover point if you can attend a raid and are required to either be online or contactable for the duration of the raid in case we lose someone to a DC or something. This means everyone has to skip the same amount of raids, has no favoritism and works quite well for us. It's simple, requires little mantenance, etc. It does mean people sitover around a quarter of the raids they can attend.

The only thing it does require is flexibility and more of a treatment of dual-specs as two equal specs. We have two main-spec tanks, who can DPS when needed, one Tank-Healer, one Healer-Tank, and a couple of Healer-DPS. This means we can almost always form a viable raid no matter who attends or who should sitover.

Sometimes raid make-up overrides sitover points if we're pushing for some Heroic kill and we really do need the 10 best geared players, or if we need to stack ranged DPS for something, but in general it works fine.

natilious
11-10-2010, 11:17 PM
My guild has been a ten man guild all through Wrath. The way we work is, we have the guild master, who happens to be my brother. THen me, who is basically second in command. We kind of do a dual raid leader status. We then have two other officers. We have about 25 active members in the guild. That spiked a bit in the later part of Wrath. We plan on running two ten man runs come cata. We have always been a melee heavy guild so we came up with many strats for ICC fights based no that. When doing progressive runs we use a Suicide kings loot method. We find it a bit more fair since it pays to be present and active. On not so progressive content we do 1 main spec roll.

Didi
11-11-2010, 03:39 AM
WOW thanks lore:)! really helped me out as a GM now, i were just sitting the other day considering what i had to do for cata.. most people left after we took LK 25 down... were also forced to kick 10 people beceause they never signed for raids and made 10mans instead... but well with 12 raiders left it really helped me out:)!

Now im gonna talk to the guildies and be democratic. LORE U ARE AWESOME:D!! -Big(gest) Fan didi ;)

Lynzee
11-11-2010, 04:39 PM
I started playing wow about half-way through wotlk so I never had experience raiding in large 40 man or 25 man raids, I had only been exposed to 10 mans so when I created my guild I came in with the idea of doing 10 man progression.
How it works for my guild which has about 150 members (alts, friends, etc) is we have 3 core teams which are our "serious" progression teams as well as alt runs that are for people who cant make core times or simply can't commit to a team.
My 10 man team is always the same 10 people, the only time we replace someone on the team is when we lose a member for whatever reason. We have a couple fill ins in the guild who come if a main team member must miss a raid day so we are always able to raid. There were people commenting earlier how do you tell your 25 that half of them wont be on the team anymore? Well you don't have to, you can split the 25m team into 2 10 mans and get the same progression.
What I have found to be a huge advantage when working in a team of just 10 people is you learn to coordinate very well with each other and you learn everyone strengths and weaknesses so instead of just replacing a person you can adjust the fight strategy to match your group. Another advantage of always running with the same 10 people is loot is never an issue, we all gear at about the same pace and everyone is willing to help each other get loot. I usually do a 1 mainspec, 1 offspec roll system until we all get something but most the time only 1 person needs the item anyway.
As far as being a serious progression 10 man guild, it is very possible. We started Icc 4 months after it came out and we are currently ranked 7th on our server. I have found that we actually progress faster in a 10 man enviornment than a 25 because it's less people to coordinate with and everyone works really well together when there are only 10 of us. Having 3 teams also creates a bit of healthy competition, I know we are always competeing against each other to see who can get down a boss first. It helps keep us all motivated and connected as a guild.
Honestly I am excited that cata is makin the igear level the same for 10 and 25, its nice that my team wont be penanlized gearwise for doing serious 10 man progression rather then 25. I think it will allow more raiding guilds to progress into endgame content that was previously unabtainable unless you're raiding in the 1 amazing guild on the server (in my case anyway lol only 1 guild on our server has downed H LK).

I hope that this shed some light on 10 man serious progression :) Thanks.

Griff
11-15-2010, 02:05 PM
► Alt
- Cannot be invited to the main guild raid.

Bodasafa, why hamstring yourself like this? What does this rule accomplish except for making a headache down the road when you want to break it. Say you've got a raid night and your main tank is down with the flu. One of your solid players has been gearing a tank alt on the side and is willing to bring it in. Now you're faced with breaking your rule or risking a pug tank or worse, not even raiding.

Bashal
11-17-2010, 08:57 AM
► Alt
- Cannot be invited to the main guild raid.

Bodasafa, why hamstring yourself like this?

I've heard of guilds having this rule before; it has the advantage that it effectively squelches people wanting to bring in alts once they feel their main is "geared enough". It has its downside, as you pointed out, in that you then have to break the rule under extraordinary circumstances. And even though you make a reasonable exception to a rule, people will sometimes jump all over that and claim you're playing favorites or being hypocritical, even though (as far as I'm concerned) all you're doing is giving in to a logical necessity. :P

On the other hand, pugging an empty spot can be a good recruitment tool. Taking an alt as an absolute last resort makes sense if a guild uses pugging to recruit.

My guild, which does use a lot of alts sometimes to fill in a second 10-man group, uses a "mains favored over alts" rule instead. We also expect people to use their mains on progression runs, unless they're explicitly asked to use an alt, to make sure a group is properly balanced.