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Riverune
11-07-2010, 07:02 AM
I'm really struggling with figuring out why my initial threat on bosses is so low. I understand warriors aren't great for initial burst threat to due rage, but dps are catching up awfully fast, even taking aggro. In Sarth +3D I am basically guaranteed to lose aggro several times to the high dps. Generally once I have good threat, the rest it fine, it is just starting up. Ill give my rotation as well (excluding buffs/shouts etc.):
Heroic Throw > SS + B&S > Revenge (if available) > Shockwave > Conc. Blow > Devastate > HS
Something similar to that for opening up, however dps still generates threat too fast >.< I am happy with my gems/enchants/gear/spec for the moment so I'm not looking at changing that around. As I mentioned, I am not sure why dps do (come close to) steal(ing) aggro off me so any advice is welcome, thanks.

Reev
11-07-2010, 07:26 AM
I am not sure what you're meaning by B&S. Warriors don't really have a rotation. We have a priority system.

For single target:
Priority 1: Shield Slam
Priority 2: Revenge
Priority 3: Shockwave
Priority 4: Concussion Blow
Priority 5: Devastate

Of course, while using those abilities, you should be spamming Heroic Strike while you have rage. It's not on the global cooldown, so you can use it at the same time as other abilities. I generally don't bother with Shockwave/Conc Blow on single targets, because they can come in handy at times, and I don't like to put a nice stun on cooldown.

Multi-Target, my initial ability usage is:
Charge>Thunderclap+Cleave>Shockwave>ShieldSlam+Cleave>Revenge>Regular rotation+Cleave

Riverune
11-07-2010, 07:41 AM
B&S = Board and Sword so i.e. shield slam whenever possible. My priority system I listed is the same as what you have said, so with that being put into action, I still can't see why my initial threat sucks :/ . I'm not worried about multi-target, just single target at the moment too :)

Reev
11-07-2010, 07:52 AM
So yeah, if you're doing what I was saying up there, I'm not sure what's going on. I seem to hold aggro just fine with that priority system. If the dps are pulling from you in the first few moments in spite of a good tanking rotation, then they probably need to hold back a little for you to establish threat before going nuts.

Martie
11-07-2010, 08:05 AM
Look, for the initial phases of a fight, you really shouldn't be asking us. You should be asking your rogue, hunters and possibly your other DPS. Aggro management is a part of being a good dps, after all.

Riverune
11-07-2010, 09:54 AM
i know Martie hehe, but I just wanted to clarify it wasn't my end that was stuffing up :) thanks for the clarification though guys its still appreciated.

Pastulio
11-08-2010, 12:04 PM
throw on some dps gear if you tanking old content imo

Dannyl
11-09-2010, 12:09 AM
When I'm pulling a boss, I generally follow a simple check list; charge -> heroic throw (important! it is an instant, rage-free, high-threat ability) -> turn the boss around and hit SS -> heroic strike. I use both berserker rage and CS right before the pull, so that I have the max rage needed for the pull. From there I quickly continue with Shield Block to get extra damage on my next SS and usually get almost an instant revenge after the turn around. After that I just fall into my priority list, which doesn't include Conc Blow or SW actually. I know some people use them but I do so very rarely. Instead it's just SS > revenge > devastate (filler) and heroic strike on every CD. You shouldn't generally ever be rage starved once the fight starts. I find I can go nuts on my HS through the length of any fight, as long as the boss keeps hitting me. You can hold back during some of the luls, like when Rotface turns to spit on a random raid member, though you should usually have a shout or berserker rage available for those situations as well. I also always use Shield Block on every CD, unless I need it for defensive purpose and it's always important to use SS before revenge when they proc because revenge can proc SS. It isn't rare for me to get a SS proc right after revenge and those bursts with SB is just amazing for your TPS. I've seen my TPS peak as high as 60k that way.

You can also, if you want use Shield Block prior to your first SS. With Heavy Repercussions -talent it should give you 100% more damage, which makes it extremely valuable. I use it particularly in 5-mans where I rarely have Vengeance to speak of and I need the best snap aggro I can make. You should have a talk with your guild officers and have them spread around the habit or the DPS to wait 1-2 GCDs before attacking in. Sindragosa especially tends to be a twitchy boss to pull and in our raids, we have a strict rule that nobody attacks the boss before the tank has got her into position.

The simple fact atm is that DPS needs to learn to manage their aggro better for the coming expansion. Atm, I would define this particularly for AoE situations and definitely during pulls. It's not odd for a fury warrior to grab aggro off a boss if he charge in at the same time with the tank, blow death wish and whatever other funny things he has. Once Vengeance kicks in, he can kick and scream at the boss as much as wants, there is no way he will steal your aggro but until then, for the first 30-45 seconds, DPS needs track their threat on their threatmeters.

uglybbtoo
11-09-2010, 01:10 AM
Of course, while using those abilities, you should be spamming Heroic Strike while you have rage. It's not on the global cooldown, so you can use it at the same time as other abilities.

That's a little bit confusing it does have it's own CD you can't really "spam" it like we used too and my RSI appreciates the change ^_^

Snap threat since the 4.0.1 patch is a little rough for all tanks for OS3D you will need help from the DPS if they are geared as martie and danny say.

EDIT: It's funny I see people post and say they never have any threat issues like a friend of mine apparanetly had no threat issues as DK tank ..... till I ran with him as a dps on my DK and he did nothing but complain my threat was insane.

MellvarTank
11-10-2010, 08:44 AM
Threat is weird for warriors right now as we still operate off of rage but have to use vigilance as well, no damage = no rage. Usually for snap threat right now, it is:

commanding shout>shield block>shield slam>normal rotation. That shield block/shield slam will give you a good enough lead on threat that you should be able to stack vengeance/rage and stay ahead of the other tanks/dps.

If you can get the boss to start hitting you, you shouldn't have too many threat issues with DPS.

Syltraul
11-10-2010, 09:19 AM
First let me say I am no expert at warriors as I only have a 57. In taking a quick look at your character sheet on armory I see you have a 144 hit rating and your expertise is at only 13. As a pally tank those two low ratings would definitely cause me trouble in generating initial threat.

Stoutale
11-10-2010, 02:55 PM
Pally tanks have other ways to generate threat, so it's not really comparable.

Tetrapakk
11-11-2010, 12:47 AM
Well, being hit and expertise capped is something all tanks wanna be, my guess is, warrior tanks even more so than protardins.

On a side note, this is an issue thats being caused by Dps being buffed and tank threat nerfed, wich is a bad combo if, for instance, the arcane mage starts popping CDs right away and doing 30k+ burst.
There is an easy solution to this tho, Make sure tricks and MDs are used on cooldown, and having the dps who always is on the edge of overaggroing know that threat is an issue nowadays.

Fade, invisibility, feign death, soul shatter, everything that lowers your aggro is starting to be usable again.

Syltraul
11-11-2010, 08:49 AM
Pally tanks have other ways to generate threat, so it's not really comparable.

Considering I said if my hit/exp were not capped I'd also have the problem, the point your making is completely irrelevant.

Either way, if you have an arcane mage popping CD's right off the bat before your tank has had time to do anything that's just bad. Throughout my guild's 3 10man groups we have pally, warrior, druid and DK tanks. Not ONE person is having problems with threat (we are all hit/exp capped). I'm not saying we're perfect, I'm just saying we're aware of the changes and what needed to happen to compensate for it.

I don't think buffing dps while nerfing threat was necessarily bad. In fact I don't see it as buffing or nerfing, just as balance. DPS shouldn't be able to just go all out without regard to threat. Tanks shouldn't just be able to face roll and hold 10+ mobs with ease. This change simply makes people have to actually think when raiding (something that was really lacking in this game since BC and even more so WotLK). Pay attention to what you're doing and you'll be fine

uglybbtoo
11-11-2010, 07:00 PM
Either way, if you have an arcane mage popping CD's right off the bat before your tank has had time to do anything that's just bad. Throughout my guild's 3 10man groups we have pally, warrior, druid and DK tanks. Not ONE person is having problems with threat (we are all hit/exp capped). I'm not saying we're perfect, I'm just saying we're aware of the changes and what needed to happen to compensate for it.


Can I come tank for your guild plz ... pretty plz.

Most of our guys think ICC is such a joke the pulls go 2 ways

1.) You start running in and a pyroblast ball flys past over your head followed by a metric ton of other crap

..... OR .....

2.) You pull and are almost deafened by the sound of everyone proc'ing there trinkets and then the barrage comes flying in.

Martie
11-11-2010, 07:29 PM
Can I come tank for your guild plz ... pretty plz.

Most of our guys think ICC is such a joke the pulls go 2 ways

1.) You start running in and a pyroblast ball flys past over your head followed by a metric ton of other crap

..... OR .....

2.) You pull and are almost deafened by the sound of everyone proc'ing there trinkets and then the barrage comes flying in.

So make a habit of pulling with taunt.

This has two effects.
The first is that you'll have three seconds of boss attention.
The second is that, should someone overaggro, you can't taunt again, and they'll die.

After people die and you manage to kill the boss, post a complete "damage done" list, and point out the dead person on the bottom of the list.

Tschus
11-11-2010, 11:41 PM
For the OP:
I think it's very possible that it's tough to hold aggro during the beginning of the Sarth fight. Warrior's TPS is highly dependent on vengeance stack now. With the avoidance that current gears provide, you might get only little damage from the boss. Hence you can't build vengeance fast enough so TPS is low. I have the same problem while taking over the first time from another tank in the ICC Saurfang fight, even with vigilance.

SeptimX
11-12-2010, 12:21 AM
hmm somebody forgot to put in Taunt, every 8sec after it cools down...

i tank heroic valanar, blood price council, dps usually hold off dps for those few seconds till i get him in position, then i simply taunt him again, and again, to gain threat lead over other dps....

funny the other day, pally tanking os3d, i gave him plenty of time to hold on to aggro, and i (fury) still manage to get aggro after doing only 1 heroic strike @.@...

Dannyl
11-12-2010, 01:03 AM
Well, being hit and expertise capped is something all tanks wanna be, my guess is, warrior tanks even more so than protardins.
This is something of a misconception. You can do really good threat even with low hit and expertise. Lots of tanks do just fine with as little as 4% hit and 13 expertise. Sure, would like to be capped but it doesn't occupy my mind that much anymore these days.

On the topic of snap aggro, was experimenting with using Recklessness on our last night's raid in ICC. It felt pretty good actually. Basically, pop Recklessness -> Def Stance + Shout + Zerker Rage -> Charge. Use the three strikes from Recklessness well on hits like SS, Heroic Strike, and Revenge. After my first SS, I pop Shield Block for my second SS. It's really good and fast aggro.

Riverune
11-12-2010, 04:20 AM
actually i found that using shield block for my first SS as shield specialisation offers lots of rage helpful for the beginning of a fight, especially fights that you may not be able to charge in to etc..
on a side note, as far as cata goes 3/3 war academy along with 3/3 incite sounds like a decent boost in threat as well, but i suppose HS is mostly used after the initial seconds of a fight where you already have plenty of rage and/or threat. anyway just thoughts ^^

Nehama
11-13-2010, 03:25 AM
I'll give you what I consider a magical solution for this.

Before the pull, activate recklessness. If you time it right, your heroic throw, shield slam with shield block activated and either a revenge or a heroic strike will be crits. It'll do wonders to your 5 sec threat generation and from there you should be able to keep it up, since vengence will stack already.

Brutyx
11-15-2010, 08:21 PM
I have several DPS in my 10Man group that make initial threat... challenging. That being said, I've developed my own sure-fire way that makes it virtually impossible for them to pull aggro off of me.

I pop Commanding Shout prior to my charge. (Like a second before) Then it's Charge -> Heroic Throw (on charge) -> Shield Block as I'm charging, SS, Rev, Devx2,Then I pop Blood Fury (I'm an orc) and hit my second shield slam. I make a point -never- to HS within my first 'rotation' (or at least being very careful) because I've ended up in spots where I've had zero rage. However, once that first 'rotation' (I'm using that term lightly) is over, I HS as normal.

(Many prot warrior rank CB/SW higher than Dev, and I would have to agree prior to 4.0.1, but I've had really good experiences using Dev since then)

Priority list for me is SS, Rev, Dev, Shock, Conc.

I don't spec into incite, I don't spec into war academy. I spec into Blood Craze for added survivability. With that being said, using the 'rotation' as I listed, if I do it properly, dps will not pull off of me (that applies to ever Heroic Mode currently in the game)

EDIT: My biggest peice of advice if you're having threat issues (I had them for a few hours too after the 4.0.1 patch), make sure you're not HSing too much. I used to spam HS like no tomorrow, but now it's a whole different ball game, and it'll eat through your rage and leave you missing valuable SS's and Rev's.

klausi
11-15-2010, 09:14 PM
Look, for the initial phases of a fight, you really shouldn't be asking us. You should be asking your rogue, hunters and possibly your other DPS.
I browsed through all postings and wondered why nobody bothered mentioning that thorns are the new tricks/md. Having a druid of any specc giving you thorns on the pull is most likely enough initial aggro with a shield slam (except for caster heavy packs camps) until your ramped revenge stack kicks in.

Ticking for 8000ish in a raid is just insanely good.

praetoria
11-15-2010, 09:42 PM
When I'm pulling a boss, I generally follow a simple check list; charge -> heroic throw (important! it is an instant, rage-free, high-threat ability) -> turn the boss around and hit SS -> heroic strike. I use both berserker rage and CS right before the pull, so that I have the max rage needed for the pull. From there I quickly continue with Shield Block to get extra damage on my next SS and usually get almost an instant revenge after the turn around. After that I just fall into my priority list, which doesn't include Conc Blow or SW actually. I know some people use them but I do so very rarely. Instead it's just SS > revenge > devastate (filler) and heroic strike on every CD. You shouldn't generally ever be rage starved once the fight starts. I find I can go nuts on my HS through the length of any fight, as long as the boss keeps hitting me. You can hold back during some of the luls, like when Rotface turns to spit on a random raid member, though you should usually have a shout or berserker rage available for those situations as well. I also always use Shield Block on every CD, unless I need it for defensive purpose and it's always important to use SS before revenge when they proc because revenge can proc SS. It isn't rare for me to get a SS proc right after revenge and those bursts with SB is just amazing for your TPS. I've seen my TPS peak as high as 60k that way.

You can also, if you want use Shield Block prior to your first SS. With Heavy Repercussions -talent it should give you 100% more damage, which makes it extremely valuable. I use it particularly in 5-mans where I rarely have Vengeance to speak of and I need the best snap aggro I can make. You should have a talk with your guild officers and have them spread around the habit or the DPS to wait 1-2 GCDs before attacking in. Sindragosa especially tends to be a twitchy boss to pull and in our raids, we have a strict rule that nobody attacks the boss before the tank has got her into position.

The simple fact atm is that DPS needs to learn to manage their aggro better for the coming expansion. Atm, I would define this particularly for AoE situations and definitely during pulls. It's not odd for a fury warrior to grab aggro off a boss if he charge in at the same time with the tank, blow death wish and whatever other funny things he has. Once Vengeance kicks in, he can kick and scream at the boss as much as wants, there is no way he will steal your aggro but until then, for the first 30-45 seconds, DPS needs track their threat on their threatmeters.


this pretty much sums it up.. also, i might add the heroic throw glyph ( adds a stack of sundarmor.. win) and stay away from recklessness. lastly, MAKE SURE YOU HAVE SHIELD BLOCK UP BEFORE YOUR FIRST SS. then, get that s&b proc within the 10 secounds and you should be golden

SeptimX
11-17-2010, 10:56 PM
Most of our guys think ICC is such a joke the pulls go 2 ways
1.) You start running in and a pyroblast ball flys past over your head followed by a metric ton of other crap
..... OR .....
2.) You pull and are almost deafened by the sound of everyone proc'ing there trinkets and then the barrage comes flying in.

hahaha, sounds very realistic..., lucky i play with sounds off, easier for Vent users.... i play Smart dps, and wait for the tank to get a hold of the mob, before i go intercept and whirlwind behind the tanks target... or if I tank, the group usually gives me a good head start, stack rend tclap and shockwave...
also this is a good way for dps to be sit out, especially when you GM is the tank, and the pull doesn't go according to plan... LOL...

Airowird
11-18-2010, 02:00 AM
"Guys, give me TWO Sunders time, ok???" Blast from the past has come back!!