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Kitinan
11-01-2010, 10:43 PM
I am new to warriors and tanking, and I need some advice.

What is the most effective way to deal with starting at 0 rage, assuming Battle Shout and Charge are on cool down?

In randoms I ask people to wait for shockwave to go off before starting DPS, but most DPS ignore this request. Sometimes this causes a downward spiral where I am not being hit, so I am generating less rage, and I have trouble keeping aggro on everything because I can't generate as much threat since I can not use my abilities.

Staying a bit ahead of my DPS has helped me a bit with this, and I have a lot better gear than when I started out. However, I am worried about Cata when there might be more down time between pulls, due to waiting for healer mana or talking strat. Potentially, I will be starting a larger number of pulls with 0 rage.

Another issue I've had is a warlock kept pulling groups. When I asked him why he kept pulling, he said he was trying to pull them to me. I am not really familiar with the DPS/Tank relationship because my previous character was a healer, but is it common for DPS, other than a hunter with misdirect, to pull like this? I find it very difficult to obtain aggro when the initial threat is on a DPS. Sometimes thunderclap/shockwave works, other times (especially if the enemies are spread out) it is not so pretty. So I taunt/heroic throw one, charge/shield slam another, grab another one with a devastate or revenge, then attempt to deal with any remaining mobs if there are any. Sometimes losing aggro on either the one I taunted or shield slammed. Is this a problem with me, or should DPS be doing that?

This thread is kind of all over the place, but I am just looking for warrior specific tanking advice. Mainly dealing with rage. And what is expected of me in a dungeon? What should I expect from the others in the dungeon?

All advice is greatly appreciated.

Here is a link to my armory. http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Firetree&cn=Danikar (The armory was down when I posted this, so if the link doesn't work I am Danikar on the realm Firetree). I have most of the justice point gear I can get. Gem/enchant advice would be appreciated as well.

klausi
11-02-2010, 12:21 AM
Your shouts might be on cooldown, but your charge shouldn't. So charging in, hitting thunderclap and get those mobs together for your shockwave. Rend, thunderclap again and don't forget about cleave.

You could also specc into the Blitz talent for additional 10 rage with every charge and don't forget about to mark at least one mob with a skull/desired raid symbol for your dps to nuke.

Regarding the warlock: "You pull it, you tank it." If they won't stop after being asked nicely let them learn the hard way and if they still proceed being unconvincable there's always a 'vote: kick player' option.

Gemming advice: Cata content is not here yet so getting as much stamina as possible is still advisable, ignoring all socket bonus despite one (preferable helmet) to meet your meta requirements.

Shield: 18 Stamina
Weapon: Blood Draining

And i'd highly recommend spending those 70 honor points and grab yourself a Wrathful Gladiator's Shield Wall (http://www.wowhead.com/item=51533). Despite still saying it has a rating requirements all below 2000 have been lifted with the 4.0.x patch.

Kitinan
11-02-2010, 03:08 AM
Thanks I grabbed the shield and moved two points into Blitz to try it out. Still need to work on gems and enchants.

Jammer Six
11-02-2010, 08:11 AM
I do the same thing, but I skip the warning. Just let them die. Usually, they either figure it out or leave the group.

Charge usually gives me enough rage to start, and hold mobs until I've been hit enough to get the circle going.

Lepka
11-02-2010, 08:19 AM
The key to warrior tanking, is mobility. That's something, I feel we do better than any other class. We have Charge (costs no rage, stuns target, and puts some extra rage in your pocket for a thunderclap or shockwave), then there's intercept (which costs rage but does damage on hit, and stuns the target), and of course intervene.

Intervene does cost a little rage, but its highly useful when trying to gain some threat back. It automatically reduces the threat of your target by 10%.

So in conjunction with your 3 quick sprints (I highly recommend having them ALL on your action bar, and map them to and easy to access area, like your mouse wheel), It's all about action priorities. If you're shouts are down, you can use berserker rage (which gives you 5 rage if glyphed), you should start with an obvious charge. Walk back to pull the mob into a single file line, shockwave, rend, thunderclap, cleave. And then it's all down hill from there. Just be sure to use thunderclap often to keep the bleeds up, and maybe do a little tab targeting and stack devastate and throw a heroic strike in there.

One thing I also suggest, after the initial pull, and you go through your rotation, save shockwave, until you've used thunderclap 3 additional times and stacked "thunderstruck" 3 times, then use shockwave. That will earn you a lot of burst threat.. and will help keep the mob glued to you.

Also, some of it obviously isn't your fault. Tanking motto (and it's been mentioned) "If you pull it, you tank it." So in cases like the lock, if you've warned your raid/group not to pull, and to allow you a few seconds to gain full aggro, then whatever they pull from that point is their fault. You've done your job. They're going to have to get used to it in Cata, so they need to start practicing watching their threat levels NOW.

I'm a 6k+ geared tank, and even I need time to build my threat. On fights like Lich King, my group knows that I need 5 seconds to gain full aggro on LK before they unload. And honestly... it's little things like that, that keep the raid together, and save a wipe.

So if you're doing your job, believe it or not... dps have one, and need to do there's.

Uranos7
11-02-2010, 10:32 AM
[


Regarding the warlock: "You pull it, you tank it." If they won't stop after being asked nicely let them learn the hard way and if they still proceed being unconvincable there's always a 'vote: kick player' option.

Totally agree!

[QUOTE]Gemming advice: Cata content is not here yet so getting as much stamina as possible is still advisable, ignoring all socket bonus despite one (preferable helmet) to meet your meta requirements.


I disagree will not bore you with the math but Avoidance > Stam sponge always has been always will be. Obviously you are one of the people that never got the concept of def and why blizz "dumbed it down" and now your still not gettin it.

nouturn20
11-02-2010, 10:35 AM
Because 4.0.1 implemented a lot of changes that are designed for Cataclysm it's not abnormal you are having threat issues. Looking at your gems/chants and specs/glyphs everything looks pretty good. Blizzard has stated that with Cata they are going back to challenging tanks and DPS threat wise by removing threat reduction talents and so forth. The only thing I can really see that would be a big help to you in the interim would be a weapon upgrade. Slower higher Damage weapons are now much better threat wise than faster tank weapons. IF you do raid regularly a good weapon to pick up would be the Frost Giants Cleaver from 10man Gunship (Heroic Version if you can) as it is a slow, high top end Damage weapon that is easily obtainable. Otherwise look at some of the PvP weapons that you can buy for honor. A lot of them have a 2.6 swing time with higher end Damage. Also upping your hit and exp to the soft caps might help some but since you are already almost there (260ish Hit and 26 exp) it wont make a huge difference.


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Laughing+Skull&cn=Plopenstein

Kitinan
11-02-2010, 04:02 PM
I'd assume some math has been done for the stam vs avoidance stuff. I have seen a few things for pre-4.0. Have the numbers changed with the removal of defense and the changes to block? I'd like to read some if someone could link me.

I am going to grab the pvp sword. I am not currently in a raiding guild, so I am going to wait till Cata to start raiding. Are a lot of my abilities based on weapon damage? I assume that's why slower weapon would be better. I figured a fast weapon would still be better because more hits on the enemy is more rage, right? Are cata tanking weapons going to be slower, or is there still going to be fast tanking swords?

Thanks for all the help.

Edit: I also thought that the expertise cap has been reduce to 23 at level 80.

nouturn20
11-02-2010, 06:11 PM
You may be right about the exp cap. I noticed the hit cap was a little lower since 4.0.1 so exp might be the same. The slower weapon will do more damage and increase your threat on most of your AoE abilities like TC, Shock wave, Cleave and Revenge. Also it will make heroic strike hit much harder. From what I've read and seen on other websites most of the tanking class weapons in Cata will be slower weapons. You used to want a faster weapon since Cleave and HS were on your next swing but now that they are instant casts off of the GCD you want them to hit as hard as possible on mobs to gain threat. Simply switching weapons seemed to help me a lot

mistrale
11-03-2010, 02:48 AM
well, i find you just need to be a bit more careful about blowing off your rage.. for example, if you are getting to the end of the fight on a trash pack, and your aggro by then is good, and you have say 50 rage, nowadays i will just throttle off and save it for the next fight, rather than wasting it killing the trash.

but, even with that, yes there are sometimes ive found myself with a depleted rage bar and shouts on cooldown. in that situation, then you really have to work your charge as best you can. in a moving fight where you are attacking the next pack e.g. FOS, thats easy enough. in a fight with static spawns e.g. HOR then you might need to reposition yourself accordingly to make sure u have room to make the charge.

the worst fight now i find, is the event fight in HoS. trash dies so fast, you dont build up any rage, and because the mobs spawn quite close, you need to be really on top of your targeting (and backing off to the steps as far as u can), so that you can still charge.

klausi
11-03-2010, 05:06 AM
I disagree will not bore you with the math but Avoidance > Stam sponge always has been always will be. Obviously you are one of the people that never got the concept of def and why blizz "dumbed it down" and now your still not gettin it.
Guess why tanks gem for stamina in WotLK? You can still die in a global (or two) even while (slighty) overgearing the content. Avoidance will be important at clvl 81+ when healer have to rethink about spamming flash of light (or: how to use use their limited mana pool efficiently). But for now it's just about being cappable of surving possible bursts for ~ 2s without a heal. This is not entirely true for paladin, because they can easily achieve being unhittable (dodge + parry + block) - so they only really need to worry about not dieing in a single breath + cleave combo at Sindragosa. But this thread is about a warrior and you can't achieve over ~ 90% avoidance + block and that still leaves you with a wide margin of lethal erros.

Uranos7
11-21-2010, 06:18 AM
What you were talking about wll be important at 81 is here and in efect now at 80!
Even though we wil not be lvl'n for at least another month. I have 3 tanks and 4 healers so I know when a tank is too low on avoidance as a priest it becomes evident by how long my shield lasts even without inspect or GS I can tell a good tank from a bad one.
So if you try stam sponge gemming healer will be oom from trying to keep you up when the big hit comes and you will die If you read Satori's post in DK tanking he has done the math and over 60% of the damage a tank recieves is avoidable.

Crittable
11-22-2010, 01:08 PM
If you read Satori's post in DK tanking he has done the math and over 60% of the damage a tank recieves is avoidable.

One of the main things Satorri was trying to get across in his guide was that avoidance is wanted especially with DK's because of the threat and the new rune system. The more Rune Strike spam, the more runes available to use and the more single target threat can be applied. Not to say that stacking avoidance over stamina while we're still in the wrath raids is better, just that for DK's it's a tad bit more appealing than it used to be.

I don't necessarily agree or disagree with the avoidance vs. stamina thing. My warrior, who is as geared as I am going to get him (I'm not getting heroic tier so I'm content), stacks stam since we are in the WotLK world still but my main focus has always been armor. I believe mitigation helps more than avoidance and stamina, but that's just personal preference with me also owning a few healers. Granted, on magical fights, stamina wins out, which is why I have multiple sets of gear on him (stamina set, armor set, avoidance/block semi-set).

On my DK, however, I'm matching socket bonuses with dodge/sta and parry/sta for the yellows and reds respectively. I'm still gearing him up (only 2pc 251 t10 and a couple other frost 264's mixed with some ilvl 200 epics and blues) so I'm currently having a little bit of a problem with overall threat, but I believe that the avoidance has helped me significantly since my Rune Strike is constantly up.