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Kippery
10-25-2010, 05:13 PM
My Protadin is good, and I can tank through ICC decently (10 man, at least) but I'm having a little trouble with threat and I get hit harder than I think I should on bosses like Sindy. Maybe I'm not gemming/gearing/glyphing right nor do I have the right spec as of 4.0.1., but last night in ICC a bear tank of comparable gear was just blowing me away with even AOE threat. It seemed like he taunted, hit one button and had the mobs and I could never get them back.

My armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Scarlet+Crusade&cn=Kippery

My rotation:

Single Target
- Taunt
- Avenger's Shield
- Judge
- CS
- Consecrate
- CS til 3 holy power
- Shield of the Righteous

And so on. This is basically what I do, but it's mostly just spamming CS until I get 3 holy power and filling in AS procs, Consecrate and Judge when CS is on CD. My AOE rotation is basically the same except CS becomes HotR and I use Holy Wrath every time it's off CD.

As far as my mitigation goes, I have 22.5% block, 19.4% parry and 22.83% dodge.

If anyone can help I'd greatly appreciate it! I am a Resto druid at heart but I really love Paladin tanking, and I've done all my Resto research and I'm trying to be just as good of a tank as I am healer :)

Thanks !!

-- Kippery --

Exiledknight
10-25-2010, 06:36 PM
First you new to reforge until you are at block cap, expertise and hit looks good although you are over the hit cap so you can reforge some to mastery. Move 2 points from GC and 1 from Hallowed ground, use those 3 points for crusade(it's roughly a 210dps increase for all 3 points).
Start the pull with an exo cast instead of taunt as the dmg portion of taunt is gone. Feral's are doing more threat since the patch so I would not be too concerned about that

uglybbtoo
10-25-2010, 08:25 PM
Actually bear AOE threat is rather weak ATM there single target threat is very good.

Your issue with threat is your weapon we dont use fast tank weapons anymore did you miss the memo :-) Take a slow one hand dps weapon even nighttime from H-FOS will do almost twice the threat of your current weapon.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=29317&p=593316&rb_v=viewtopic#p593316

https://sites.google.com/site/matlabadin/4-0-1/401_weap_allcs.png

As exiled said you do need to do a bit of reading up on reforging
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=29787&rb_v=viewtopic

Kippery
10-25-2010, 08:30 PM
I did just go through and make almost all my hit Mastery. most of my gear is reforged now. So a better weapon, eh? No, I did not get the memo. Musta been lost in my TPS reports....

Okay... I'll work on that :) Thanks so much !!! :D

Exiledknight
10-25-2010, 11:47 PM
Bear threat in general depends on vengeance, they do scale much better with it than any other tank but at a starting block ug is 100% correct I prob should have looked outside the box (I doubt most guilds pull at the pace we do) and/or given a little more of an explaination, other than the first pull of a wing in ICC myself and our bear still have vengeance stacked as we are making the next trash pull. I would actually suggest grinding out some honor and grabbing the 264 wrathful sword. Not only will its tps/dps be through the roof with what you currently have it will also provide you with more stam.

Kippery
10-26-2010, 07:24 PM
So i went ahead and got the Wrathful Gladiator's Slicer, new pants and reforged a lot of my dodge into Mastery. Now what enchant do I use? I see Donthealme has Mongoose on the weapon. Is Blade Ward something useful? I see a lot of tanks with that now. Check out my armory again if you would to see how it looks :)

And should I just be gemming straight stam? Or should I add parry/dodge in there too?

Exiledknight
10-27-2010, 10:42 AM
I have always and will continue to laugh at bladeward, it is crap its a proc like mongoose but with a long ICD worthless IMO. So now that you have done some legwork lets dig in some more, here is a list of gems/enchants to put in/fix

Helm-Change the parry/stam to an epic gem with agi/stam
Back-+225 armor enchant
Chest change enchant to +275 health, put in 3 solid majestic zircons
Gloves- Put on heavy borean armor kit(+18 stam)
Legs- 2 solid majestic zircons
Boots- change the parry/stam to straight stam
Libram- change to solid majestic zircon
Shield- change to +18 stamina
Weapon- solid majestic zircon


Now only make these changes if you are in fact block capped, if not use some agi/stam gems in reds and dodge/stam gems in yellows to reach it. Again remember when calculating this give yourself kings, if you eat agi or str food eat that and then also get a DK in your group to blow Horn of winter. Reforge the weapon's resil to mastery, if you dont have any buffs showing on your character sheet you sit prob about 8-9% away from being block capped, reforging the rest should get you there(I really wish they would fix the armory to show mastery).

pinnacle2009
10-27-2010, 10:27 PM
I am pretty sure I read that Accuracy is a higher TPS increase than Mongoose is now. It may only be better if under hit cap? I can't remember what it was saying, but I'd look into Accuracy. I am using it and a fast weapon and having no problems with threat (I have been meaning to enchant my H Frost Cleaver though, that TPS increase looks nice.)

If you are looking for an enchant for survivability, I'd go with Blood Draining.

Skaggi
10-28-2010, 12:44 AM
Mungo is pretty much dead as are agi/stam gems because agi won't give us armor anymore. Dodge gives more avoidance and opens room for reforging.

Accuracy is a good threat enchant until hitcapped while blooddraining is good for survival.

Cheers!
Skaggi

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk

sifuedition
10-28-2010, 09:38 AM
I may have missed it but I didn't see anyone address your rotation.

First, there is NO true rotation anymore. If you are pressing buttuns in the same order repeatedly, you're doing it wrong. Also, I would not start with taunt. Use exo if you need a ranged pull single target. AS for multiple target ranged pull.

Single target (after the pull)
CS-x-CS-x-CS-SotR
That is the pattern. The x is replaced by whatever is not on cd. Consecration and HotR are the only things not viable. Judge, holy wrath, avengers shield are all options. Multiple targets is the same but replace CS with HotR and cons becomes viable again.

Your threat will not be what it was before unless it is in a raid and you have vengence stacked. TAB targetinging is important on pack pulls now.

Using this, I don't have any threat issues using Last Word. The slow one ganders may help but ATM, doesn't seem necessary to me so I'll keep doing as I always have.

Exiledknight
10-28-2010, 03:17 PM
He addressed his rotation which is completely correct, LW is the highest threat generating tank weapon but with the wrathful weapons being not requiring rating, AND providing more stam than the heroic version of LW why would you not use it?

Exiledknight
10-28-2010, 03:24 PM
As far as mongoose, once hit capped it is your best choice for threat hands down(unless....well that discussion doesnt belong here), BD is very useful situationally, there are so few instances it will save you that at this point in your tanking career it is prob useless to you. Do I have weapon with it? Absolutely at this point solely for p1 of H LK to ensure if a tranq is a bit slow those ghouls wont kill me before heals land, H sindy, H PP, H BQL, H fester, maybe H rotface if you are add kiting are the only fights it has any use, but once those are farm then it's time to swap and close the dps gap.

sifuedition
10-29-2010, 09:52 AM
He addressed his rotation which is completely correct, LW is the highest threat generating tank weapon but with the wrathful weapons being not requiring rating, AND providing more stam than the heroic version of LW why would you not use it?

He said "crusaders strike three times" which I took as CS, wait on cd, CS, etc. That was the reason I mentioned it. He also mentioned mana issues which I am not sure how that would be the case with the way I mentioned.

Tazlex
10-29-2010, 04:36 PM
Just something I do on opening up Single Target: Judgement -> AS -> CS -> Filler -> CS -> Filler -> Judgement should be up by now. This just allows me to get another Judgement in if Sacred Duty didn't proc the first time. Since in your link you have the long range judgement talent.

Not sure how up to date the armory is at the moment. Showing you using a 20 dodge rating to shield enchantment. I would recommend using Titanium Plating instead. TP gives 26 Parry Rating and 50% reduction on Disarms for giggles, or traditionally you can go for the +18 stamina. Also another alternative for glove enhancement is to use the +240 Armor item from Leather working. Also you are not getting the +12 Stamina Socket bonus in your head piece. Try to find a purple gem with something + 15 stamina. Just gives you almost as much stamina but with a bit extra in another stat department.

Exiledknight
10-29-2010, 10:33 PM
He said "crusaders strike three times" which I took as CS, wait on cd, CS, etc. That was the reason I mentioned it. He also mentioned mana issues which I am not sure how that would be the case with the way I mentioned.

Ah I see what you mean, I tookt he CS 3 times as kind of a rinse and repeat, but if it is how you read it then yeah its wrong.

Kippery
10-30-2010, 05:19 PM
Mungo is pretty much dead as are agi/stam gems because agi won't give us armor anymore. Accuracy is a good threat enchant until hitcapped while blooddraining is good for survival.

Sooooo I'm not exactly sure. I have Mongoose at the moment, but no weapon with Blood Draining. What about Blade Ward? It gives parry, and nobody has mentioned this.

And Exiled, why an Agility/Stam Meta? And why do you favor Mongoose so much, especially since it doesn't give us armor anymore? I figured the +2% armor would be better to help me take less damage. But again, I really don't know :)


Oh and, stupid question.. what percent is my block cap? There seems to be a lot of different percentages out there and I just want to make sure I get the right one.

And the gem in my boots is going to stay purple (Parry/Stam) because I need that to activate my meta. Unless I switch Meta, but I'm not sure why I want agility at this point.

Fetzie
10-30-2010, 07:08 PM
Blade ward is a subpar avoidance enchant that will push your avoidance into a heavy diminishing return on avoidance stats (basically the next ten points of avoidance net you less avoidance than the ten points before)

you used to take an agility/stamina gem in the helmet because agility granted armor, dodge and crit. Now that it only grants dodge and crit you get more avoidance by taking the parry/stamina hybrid gem. The helmet is the absolutely best place to place the purple gem to fulfill the meta gem requirement. Nowhere else will you find a 12 stamina bonus for a single non-blue gem.

the stamina/2% armor meta gem is the best one.

you need your avoidance stats and block chance to be equal to or greater than 102.4% to be block capped against boss level (x+3) mobs. If you are only farming 5 man heroics you only need 101.6% This is because mobs ignore 0.2% of each of your avoidance chances (parry, dodge, miss) and block chance for each level they are higher than you,

100% avoidance + block according to your character sheet means you will always avoid or block the attack from a same level mob (i.e. level 80)
100.8% avoidance + block according to your character sheet means you will always avoid or block the attack from a level+1 mob (i.e. level 81)
101.6% avoidance + block according to your character sheet means you will always avoid or block the attack from a level+2 mob (i.e. level 82)
102.4% avoidance + block according to your character sheet means you will always avoid or block the attack from a level+3 mob (i.e. level 83 or boss level, only relevant if you are raiding)

simply add up like this:
Dodge chance + parry chance + block chance + 15(holy shield grants this much block chance) + 5 (you have 5% miss).

if the answer is more than or equal to either 101.6 or 102.4, then you are block capped for the 5 man content or raiding content respectively.


(note on the side: I am sure it was 101.8% for level+2 mobs when gearing for nerubian burrower tanking, but oh well)
As for mastery, I would definitely reforge every item so that you have at least some mastery stat on it. this will push your block chance up a good 6-7% while only losing you 1-2% avoidance and make you tougher to kill (and more predictable to heal).

When you have placed the purple gem in your helmet, either use a dodge/stam gem to unlock the boot's socket bonus or dump a 30 stam in that slot. using a purple gem in a yellow socket is a big nono :) either take the bonus, or leave it, but if you leave it then use a 30 stamina gem.

Exiledknight
10-31-2010, 02:41 PM
Sooooo I'm not exactly sure. I have Mongoose at the moment, but no weapon with Blood Draining. What about Blade Ward? It gives parry, and nobody has mentioned this.

And Exiled, why an Agility/Stam Meta? And why do you favor Mongoose so much, especially since it doesn't give us armor anymore? I figured the +2% armor would be better to help me take less damage. But again, I really don't know :)


Oh and, stupid question.. what percent is my block cap? There seems to be a lot of different percentages out there and I just want to make sure I get the right one.

And the gem in my boots is going to stay purple (Parry/Stam) because I need that to activate my meta. Unless I switch Meta, but I'm not sure why I want agility at this point.

You want to activate your meta via the red slot in your helm, and use a purple gem, it gives you the highest socket bonus. I favor mongoose on my main weapon for a few reasons, the first being that I do not need the hit from accuracy, Blood draining I already covered, Blade ward just sucks for what you get it really is poorly itemized, which leads us to mongoose being the only real choice.

Fetzie
10-31-2010, 03:35 PM
If you dismiss bladeward because it grants a small amount of avoidance, why take mongoose? it too grants a small amount of avoidance. In fact, chances are you gain more avoidance through bladewarding than through mongoose because your parry chance tends to be lower than your dodge chance.

threatwise, you gain about 1.5% crit from mongoose. that is all. Druids and rogues get AP from it, paladins and warriors do not. If you want a threat enchant, and are hitcapped without accuracy, 20 strength, 65 AP and berserking will all grant more tps than mongoose.