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Pesko
10-24-2010, 01:32 AM
Heya guys.
I'd been playing arround on the beta for quiet awhile as holy and disc.
Now i want to try shadow for good, but.. How/when to use Mind Spike?

I follow the same rotation as on live, but due to Evanglism i has to do mind flay quiet offen, and therefore cant berly push a mind spike in.

Evangelism is up for 20 sek, Dark Arcangel for 15 sek with both pushed you'll get +10% periodic shadow dmg, and +10% dmg on spike, blast and flay.

My idea of a rotation would prolly be:
Devo Plaque > PW:S > Vamp Touch > flay up to 5 > 2x spike > instant MD >fill up flay again > refresh Vamp and prehaps Devo.

Anyone tryed a beta raid as shadow, or just got wide knowledge on shadow? :)
pls help.

best regard Pesko

Beefius
10-26-2010, 08:19 AM
I dont think its that attractive for a standard PvE rotation because of how it extinguishes your DOTs on the target - you would lose uptime on SW:P, DP & VT and you would have to recast SW:P which negates the point of the pain and suffering talents, a staple of shadow spec.

I think it may be attractive whenever archangel is available to trigger (every 90 secs) to then break your standard rotation of mindflay and refreshing DP and VT instead to cast mindspike repeatedly and mind blast as often as you are able for the 18 secs, then return to your standard rotation.

It will also be attractive in PvP in many situations since it has half the cast time and does twice as much damage as mind flay.

Santuse
04-02-2011, 04:51 PM
beef is pretty spot on, but he forgot something. Mind blast as always is supposed to be in the regular rotation, thus mastery has a purpose.

my good understanding of the rotation's start; MS (3) VT (for healer's mana) MB DP SWP SWD PWS MF MF MB dispersion.

Spam mind flay and mind blast as much as possible and make sure to reapply VT and DP as needed.

Once you need mana, Hit evangel. then go back to start (forget the dispersion at end). After that your rotation should stabilize.

Krenian
04-02-2011, 09:21 PM
Moved to DPS section.

Beefius
04-03-2011, 03:52 PM
Try to keep in mind, what I said on the topic was only pre-cata speculation... maximising shadow priest raid damage pre-85 was all about maximising dot uptimes, and mana was of no concern at all.
These days my priest isnt up to raiding spec yet; my fury/prot warrior is my main going into this expansion so I have only a vague idea of how priests (of any spec) function at this present time.

mistraele
04-03-2011, 10:53 PM
i tend to go with a Vamp Touch, PWS, devo then mind flay to orbs. MB only on orb proc. keep SWD on CD too and all dots ups after that.

Zxian
04-04-2011, 02:45 AM
My understanding of shadow now in Cata is as follows:


Mind Blast only when you have three orbs, or you need it to maintain the Empowered Shadow buff.
Keep DoTs up. Refreshing the DoT within the last tick is perfectly acceptable, due to the changes Blizzard has made to overlapping existing DoTs. Note: Re-casting DP is never a DPS loss, but spamming it can cause you to go OOM quickly. DP/SW:D can be used at any time that you have to move in order to maintain your DPS.
Archangel on CD.
Mind Flay when you have nothing else to do.
Mind Spike only when you need burst damage. It is not useful for sustainable DPS.
As of 4.0.6, multi-DoTing is better DPS than Mind Sear. This may change once Mind Sear gets buffed in the next patch.

Strateuomai
04-04-2011, 03:42 AM
I always tend to start with a standard rotation to begin with.

SWP>VT>DP>MF

Once I establish a 5 stack i need to check my priority. Priority is given to MB assuming i have an orb proc. If no orb continue to MF or reapply VT>DP until Orb. Once orb is procced I pop Arch Angel and any on use trinket. MB then reapply VT>DP>MF then continue normal priority assuming I can maintain orbs. You will also need to use SWD every once in a while and preferably in between timers so you you can continue to take advantage of orbs(e.g. dont clip your VT cd to use swd. Cast VT to keep dot up then cast SWD. You dont ever want to if you can help it to use 2 instant casts back to back until you get to sub 25% on boss. Useful adds-ons include power aura and fortexorcist.

Once a boss reaches sub 25%, My priority goes to MB(assuming orb is up) VT>DP (assuming i need to reaply) >SWDx2.

You wont always need to reapply dots or to MB on cd. There are times when running under the 10% buff that you will need or can reapply your VT and DP assuming you have enough time on the counter. Hope this helps as its more of a fluid approach these days when it comes to SP's.

Obviously if you can help it, try not to disperse until you get to a point in a raid encounter where its beneficial to be moving so you dont die. Or during certain portions of a fight where massive damage happens to you(e.g. Nefarian Crackle) Other than that, a stationary fight you really shouldnt be having mana problems at all in a raid. If so it means you arent managing your CD's properly or not SWD when you are down.

1stormchaser
04-04-2011, 08:05 AM
First, Mind Spike is a waste, at least for now. Not sure what's in the future for it.

SWP is cast once and then refreshed with MF. Empowered Shadow is what should be concentratred on. Keeping EP to proc above 80% of the time is what you should shoot for. Orbs seem to pop mostly from MF. Testing on the dummies to see which rotation will give you the best chance to proc might be a good idea. Just remember, dummies won't give you the same results when doing groups and raids.

On trash, I wouldn't worry too much about doing that great of DPS. Mobs usually die way too quick for a useful rotation to establish which is where your DPS will come from. On boss fights, that's a different story.

On fights where the mob has an excess of 1M, use SWP to start fight. After this, the rotation needs to be sufficent to cast MB and SWD once they come off their cool-downs. A simple but useful rotation can be something like (after SWP is cast) VT; DP; MB; MF; MF; SWD. Repeat. Yes, chances are you won't get any orbs on the first MB and yes, DP has not counted down but don't worry, ES will have proc'd which is your bread and butter buff. Like I said it's simple but a good starting point for you to work on. One more thing. I know there a lot of threads which talk about the importance of Haste and though this is true, I would concentrate on your hit first and getting that up to 17. One miss and not only will you not get any dps, your orbs, ES will not proc not to mention the loss of mana.

Whyss
04-04-2011, 12:24 PM
Since both Mind Blast and Mind Spike consume Shadow Orbs, they should both proc Empowered Shadow. I have not tested it yet, but it should be true.

After procing Empowered Shadow, you want to refresh your DoTs to get the damage bonus, so maybe the DoT wipe done by Mind Spike is not such a bad thing? Of course, you will have to recast Shadow Word: Pain, not just refresh it with Mind Flay. But you will recast Devouring Plague and Vampiric Touch if you want to take advantage of Empowered Shadow, right?

I have not convinced myself that Mind Spike is any good, even given the above. But just thought I'd toss it out there for further thought and conversation.

1stormchaser
04-05-2011, 09:01 AM
Shadow Orbs proc from both, MF and SWP. Yes, the orbs are consumed with MB. Empowered Shadow comes from landing MB after having it consume the orb. MF also procs Dark Evangelism which increases the Priest damage. Ideally, you would want to proc the Orbs which can happen if you land SWP first. Follow with your dots which includes MF. Then MB. SW Death is used for the purpose to regain mana, not to increase your DPS. So it is possible and very likely to have both procs, ES and SO both to be running at the same time which is what you want.

Reyntrannin
04-06-2011, 11:48 AM
From the looks of it, msot are recommending casting SW:P early and then only refreshing via MF. Previously, with similar spell rotations, you would wait until Empowered Shadows had procced since the SW:P would continue to use the same damage values taht it had at teh moment of cast, and thus activating teh Emp. Shadows buff after its inital cast would not have any effect on its damage when refreshed.

Has this mehanic changed with Cata in general, or is this kind of interaction unique to the Shadow Priest?

Meerkat
04-18-2011, 04:00 PM
From the looks of it, msot are recommending casting SW:P early and then only refreshing via MF. Previously, with similar spell rotations, you would wait until Empowered Shadows had procced since the SW:P would continue to use the same damage values taht it had at teh moment of cast, and thus activating teh Emp. Shadows buff after its inital cast would not have any effect on its damage when refreshed.

Has this mehanic changed with Cata in general, or is this kind of interaction unique to the Shadow Priest?

currently whenever SW:P is refreshed it's like putting it up again. it takes on Emp Shadows (if up) as well as any damage modifiers, trinkets, etc. so you are correct, cast SW:P early and only refresh with MF. DP and VT however do not work like this, they take on only the modifiers that are up at the time of cast.

Kemanorel
05-02-2011, 09:47 AM
When asking in my guild forums about testing a dps offspec for my alt rather than a continued disc/holy pair, one of our lead priest officers mentioned:

Facemelter Reloaded @ curse.


Like most rotation assists it isn't always bright enough to be best, but like lore I find on occasion that a idiot light can be helpful to focusing on more important things. The addon in question has adjsutable priorities, and also displays last action, suggested action, and a displayed prediction of next suggested action. Given 350 or so ilevel healing gear and semi-traditional spec was well over 12k+ range this week in a 10 BH, which considering its literally my disc set i'm reasonably content with the offspec alt dps level for now.

Schisme
05-09-2011, 10:26 AM
My understanding of shadow now in Cata is as follows:


Mind Blast only when you have three orbs, or you need it to maintain the Empowered Shadow buff.



This is absoultely wrong. Cast MB on CD, every cd, unless ES is already expired. It's a huge DPS loss to wait for even a single orb. Yes, that means you should be casting MB even without an orb up.

Quinafoi
05-09-2011, 11:25 AM
What is your source Schisme? Not saying your right or wrong, just curious where you get this information.

Schisme
05-12-2011, 10:31 AM
Quinafoi, just about every Shadow Priest resource has the numbers freely available.

http://shadowpriest.com/viewtopic.php?f=73&t=30303 in the Q&A section.

ES lasts 20 seconds. That gives you the opportunity to cast MB, then cast MB again before ES falls off. MB is better DPS (as of 4.0.6) than MF even without an orb. Therefore you're able to cast MB without an orb, then wait for an orb, MB again, and have no ES downtime. This also helps on wasting orbs. If you start casting at 2 orbs, and get the 3rd in the middle of the cast, it's far less likely that there will be wasted procs of shadow orbs. Hope that helps. I'm working on a complete Shadow Priest guide for my YouTube channel if you want to check out some of those videos. Most of them are heroic fights, but you might pick up something useful.

http://www.YouTube.com/user/schisme