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Laose
10-20-2010, 08:47 AM
So, I searched and couldn't find any threads talking about this, so if there are already I apologize, and feel free to delete this and ban me for stupidity. :cool: With that said...

Did you know that Frost DKs are quite possibly the most OP DPS spec in the game right now? I know that I'm pretty decently geared, and that Cata will come along and make a good portion of our AoE DPS useless... but wow. If you have a DK, go spec Frost and enjoy it while we have it. My guild Raids on Fridays, and one week to the next, I moved from 3rd-4th on the DPS charts in ICC10 behind a Boomkin, a Ret Pally, and a heavily Geared Rogue, to 1st by 2k easily. My single target is just slightly behind the Boomkin now, but my AoE is... insane. 20k on trash.

And don't even get me going on 5man Heroics. Frost DKs are a Tank's worst nightmare. Howling Blast is easily the most overpowered ability in the game right now. I've run maybe 40 Randoms since the patch, and I have yet to be in a group where I didn't double the next Highest DPS on the chart.

Anyway, I realize I'm coming off like a snobbish jerk now, so I will go ahead and ask a couple questions to see if anyone has experimented around yet... Does anyone know if Unholy is any good right now? Also, do any other Frost DKs prefer Two-Handers to DW? I've specced both and found DW to be slightly higher for me, but I'd be curious if others are having the same results.

Reev
10-20-2010, 08:52 AM
I tanked against a frost dk last night who was pulling 10-15k on trash, and 8-10k on bosses in Gun'Drak. I maintained aggro on the group, but only because the instant the DK pulled a mob off me, it was dead anyway.

Toushiro
10-20-2010, 09:00 AM
I went Unholy, the same fights in heroic I did 6-7k DPS on as 2H frost I did 9-10k DPS.

Grannos
10-20-2010, 09:04 AM
Yeah, frost DK dps is pretty sick right now. My gs is only 4600 (for reference of gear only) and I was pulling 15K on trash in Heroic PoS last night and just over 6K on bosses. I think the boss fights are low due to low quality weps (lvl 219 weps from normal HoR). That is quite a bit more than I was able to do before the patch.

uglybbtoo
10-20-2010, 10:30 PM
I went Unholy, the same fights in heroic I did 6-7k DPS on as 2H frost I did 9-10k DPS.

Can you throw me a link to a spec plz Toush I am have finally got around to playing with my 2 DK's atm but I really hate unholy the whole pet thing annoys the crud out of me coming from an old blood dps background .. I don't play a hunter for that reason :=)

Both DK's have tank spec's as primary but I do like to have viable dps spec's on them as usually filling in raid spots with them.

PatrikL
10-21-2010, 02:58 AM
It was good at single targets before the patch as well I think but it is as you said now a bit OP on AoE since they removed the CD on HB. Even more so in 5 mans than raids since mobs dont live so long and our burst is extremely good. Before the patch I could on a good day do 6-7k total throughout a dungeon. After min 8k, max maybe 11k, depending on which dungeon but its hard finding tanks who can hold things.

On larger trashpacks numbers above 20k isnt unusual, no matter if its a short or long fight. HOWEVER, AoE really doesnt matter and never has. On boss fights I'd say we are about where we were before the patch (at least at my gear level).

Sterbefall
10-21-2010, 03:25 PM
Frost AoE is broken right now (in a good way, so expect a nerf). Single target is about the same as it was before the patch, maybe a little better or a little worse depending on your procs.

Unholy is quite good and possibly a tad better at single target DPS.

uglybbtoo
10-21-2010, 07:46 PM
I am personally blaming toushiro for this but I unintentionally upset many a tank in cross realm last night using his spec.

What single target? it hits everything and if your tank is average you end up tanking everything which is not a real issue just pisses tanks off.

Yes the AOE splash damage is out of control and I now see it is this DK spec that has cause me a few issues with tanking.

I do like this spec over unholy because I hate pets so expecting to peeve many more tanks >.<

BTW: Reforged all my crit to make hit cap, make expertise cap and then everything left into mastery. My AOE splash damage is now officially uncontrolable proportions I am so going to have rename my toon after having some fun for next few days the tanks will see me and kick me :-)

penademuerte
10-22-2010, 08:11 AM
Can you guys provide links to this spec you are all ravign about. I would love to try it out. One other thing have you had to change the rotation post patch very much from the pre-patch rotation.

Thank you

Yves
10-23-2010, 04:00 PM
Is this build you guys are talking about ?
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#j0hZMIMMfuRzfz0b:MamcMmcMm

uglybbtoo
10-24-2010, 09:55 PM
This is my baby DK alt on oceanic server

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Saurfang&cn=Ubbdk

It is almost untankable setup like that will do 7-8K in almost any heroic alot of fun but pisses tanks off :-)

EDIT: Should add in I got background detail of what to do from
http://manaflask.com/Daniie/blog/4905/

spec: (which i think is same as yves gives above)
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#j0hZGc0rfuRzbu0b:amM0

and stat weighting given in that:
The stat weights for 2H are:

Hit (until 8% ) > Expertise (until 200 rating) > Strength > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Agility > Spell Hit

PatrikL
10-25-2010, 03:59 AM
Can you guys provide links to this spec you are all ravign about. I would love to try it out. One other thing have you had to change the rotation post patch very much from the pre-patch rotation.

I'm using the current one from EJ and yes the "rotation" is different. It was a priority system before the patch and is even more so now. What has made the big change is the fact that HB no longer has a cooldown. Since it hits harder than IT you dont use IT to apply frost fever anymore and the added "bonus" is that if you have a few mobs it does some serious numbers. This is also why some tanks have big issues holding all the mobs. Bear tanks I have found to have the biggest issues but then again they are very good on single targets. I ran FoS yesterday and did 11k total (as in over the whole dungeon) which is way too much if you ask me. I would be surprised if blizz didnt either lower the damage from HB or put a short cd on it again. But then again this doesnt really affect the more important fights (raid boss fights).

Theotherone
10-25-2010, 06:01 AM
I got to melee dps in stead of tank on my DK last night, and Frost does some serious damage. Melee dps just isn't my strong suit, since I think too much like tank and get myself killed a lot, but on the "we'll attack from behind" adds the come into the Fest/Rot hallway, I did 25k with HB, DnD and BB. It was just sick.

All night Frost Strike was critting for around 15 - 20k, Icy Touch was critting for around 10k and Obliterate was critting for around 15 - 20k. I can only imagine what this DK could do in the hands of someone who knows what the hell they're doing as a melee dps.

PatrikL
10-25-2010, 06:31 AM
If you are a decently geared dps, you can tank most heroics in frost also (in blood presence though). Because of HB you'll have everything absolutely glued to you and its kinda fun to do say 8k as a tank. Just make sure your healer knows about it since the damage is pretty spiky but with 35-40k hp since the patch its not too risky. I do this in pugs sometimes if I see I have a good healer and ppl are pretty amused :-)

LoneJacobs
10-25-2010, 07:36 AM
Im not sure if this is the correct slot to post this in but, i cannot get over 3-4k buffed in raids...hos is it that peopel are getting 20k. i know its gear and rotation some but ...i have never heard of that. i am still a "newbie" in a sense. i have been playing for a bout 1.5 yrs on wow but some things are eluding me. any help would be appreciated.

Theotherone
10-25-2010, 07:43 AM
Im not sure if this is the correct slot to post this in but, i cannot get over 3-4k buffed in raids...hos is it that peopel are getting 20k. i know its gear and rotation some but ...i have never heard of that. i am still a "newbie" in a sense. i have been playing for a bout 1.5 yrs on wow but some things are eluding me. any help would be appreciated.

Well my 25k is a bit misleading since it's not single target it was mob pack so DnD, HB and BB do sick damage. On single target, i was doing around 9k dps in 10 man. Surfang was around 9k, which on that fight is not great for a dps, but I'm not very good at melee dps, I just dont' do it that much. It's a matter of gear, talents and priority.

DnD then get your diseases on the target, spread them around (if multi-mob), Froststrike like mad, use Obliterate when it comes up, HB whenever you get the chance and have fun.

There are many on here who know the priorities much better then I do.

uglybbtoo
10-25-2010, 07:55 AM
Im not sure if this is the correct slot to post this in but, i cannot get over 3-4k buffed in raids...hos is it that peopel are getting 20k. i know its gear and rotation some but ...i have never heard of that. i am still a "newbie" in a sense. i have been playing for a bout 1.5 yrs on wow but some things are eluding me. any help would be appreciated.

Grab a 2 hander use the spec above and reforge any crit on gear to make sure u are hit capped and expertise capped reforge any remaining crit to mastery.

You can use a addon like CL-DK to help with your priority rotation .

As you can see from an average heroic run its like half your damage normal hits are 4K-7.5K crits which for me is 20% of time are 8.3K-15K.

Edit: I should also say I am pretty crap as a dps'er .. I much prefer being a tank but even I can manage frost dps.

Thats a geared grp run thru H-HOS so my dps is down a bit from normal because of the event it just happened to be on my screen ;-)

This is what makes tanking for this spec so hard you need to be prepared to tank half the crap at all times so make sure you have icebound fort and am shield somewhere handy on toolbar

2384

EDIT and incase you thought the group wasnt geared here is the damage off last boss the mage pulls 11K. As you can see the dps damage from frost is relatively flat one target or many.

2385

raedin
10-25-2010, 01:52 PM
well, i will agree frost is a great spec, i lvoe it and have used it since i hit 80 on my dk, but, unholy, in my opinion has also gotten much better. i dont have a comparison for the two, but in nax i hit 10.5k in unholy on a boss were we didnt need to move. and my gs is only 5.5k.

uglybbtoo
10-25-2010, 04:30 PM
Not disagreeing unholy has good dps in raid it also has some unique diseases etc as well. It's is by it's nature with the pet etc a bit more complicated to play and in heroics it's actually lower dps because your disease ghoul etc don't get time to work.

Part of this has turned to how much fun can you have in heroics which basically involves how much nuking can you do.

I should say mind you I got a run at LK at a pug saved 11/12 on this guy and was doing 10K but I have no idea what it would pull as unholy in same gear. They failed to down him
but that was a group issue.

PatrikL
10-26-2010, 01:57 AM
Im not sure if this is the correct slot to post this in but, i cannot get over 3-4k buffed in raids...hos is it that peopel are getting 20k. i know its gear and rotation some but ...i have never heard of that. i am still a "newbie" in a sense. i have been playing for a bout 1.5 yrs on wow but some things are eluding me. any help would be appreciated.

Since the dps guide here isnt updated I would recomend you to read:

http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-frost_dps_cataclysm_countdown/ (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-frost_dps_cataclysm_countdown/p2/)

Thinga that are important are:
- Spec (which is easier now with the smaller trees but make sure you grab the abilities you need depending on if you one or two weapons).
- Using slow one handers if DWing.
- Gemming all strength after the meta gems are set.
- Reforging hit/exp to mastery after the soft caps are reached.
- Reforging crit to mastery for both specs and haste to mastery also in some cases for DW.
- The priority list (instead of a set rotation)

Prexie
10-27-2010, 02:10 PM
BiS Frost DW/2H is anywhere from 2-5k under BiS Unholy on live (check WoL rankings). I way outgear our frost DK but while his dps has risen since patch, it's not close to the boost I've seen as unholy. I'm pushing 20k on fights like Saurfang/Fester/Rot HM. Our other unholy is either right above me or below me depending on the fight. A lot of it comes down to effective pet and cooldown usage for unholy while frost has seemingly lost its niche as the proc-watching spec (compared to 3.3.3).

AoE dps on trash isn't really a strong measure of dps capabilities of a class. A caveat to that could be improved dps on Heroic Halion.

HM25 Saurfang: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sklsl1gya0nhfuw5/sum/damageDone/?s=2087&e=2247
HM25 Rotface: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sklsl1gya0nhfuw5/sum/damageDone/?s=2810&e=2981

uglybbtoo
10-27-2010, 08:07 PM
Yeah prexie I am certain unholy will out DPS frost in raid absolutely no arguement.

However as you already noted I am in fairly average gear and yet I can out dps even highly highly geared toons in heroics because the burst dps off frost is massive. With frost the rotation is also very simple where it's alot more complex with unholy.

So if you like the groups frost is extremely attractive too is those ungeared and levelling, tanks who only dps as a second spec (hence why its on this site) and those who want to have some absolute laughs in heroics.

It actually makes heroics fun again .. here is a log for H-DtK from a week ago to give you an idea ... I have improved my DPS even more since then.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/llj30micm8yy1v3x/sum/damageDone/

penademuerte
10-27-2010, 09:10 PM
So am i understanding correctly then that you should reforge crit to be at hit and exp caps and then reforge crit to mastery.....what i am not understanding....is crit not that important for frost dk's now?? What is the break point that you do not want to go below on your crit in order to get those (exp, hit, and mastery) up??

uglybbtoo
10-27-2010, 11:15 PM
Thats my work in progress atm I will post some more detailed numbers when I get time to run analysis tonight and hence why I started logging my runs.

The original work says:
Hit (until 8% ) > Expertise (until 200 rating) > Strength > Mastery > Haste > Crit > Agility > Spell Hit

EJ's latest stats tables shows:
Hit 3.37 Expertise 3.27 Strength 3.11 Mastery 3.14 Haste 3.23 Crit 2.30 Agility 1.43 Spell Hit 0.91 Weapon DPS 11.25 Weapon Speed 27.27

Notably there values are for a BIS setup and I am not sure how they are getting there number (I have a compaint with EJ stuff there is some vague reference to how they got them I am used to work like theck et al where everything is open) http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-frost_dps_cataclysm_countdown/ and I am assuming they are raid buffed and ICC.

I am coming up with very very diff numbers .. here is what I have noticed so far

There appears to be a some sort of haste cap I am at 689 haste on current gear and I am finding haste value is diminishing rapidly ... yet to do reading on why. I am running in unholy presence so need to look up stuff on this.

Mastery is much more important than any other stat as it increases frost damage as a flat percentage. For example 20 strength produces very little increase in damage 20 mastery produces massive increase in damage so I am yet to fathom how they can have mastery and strength as equal in value.

This may be a distortion of the sorts of fight but weapon speed is of little value. On values I am seeing only its damage matters because it is woven into frost strike http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49143. Our other main attack howling blast http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49184 simply uses AP in its calc. Most of the time my actual melee damage is tiny so not sure how they get weapon speed as important.

So from where I am ATM what I am seeing is

Hit (until cap) > Expertise (cap) > Mastery > Strength >>> Crit (if haste is over 600ish) > Haste

I should get a chance on weekend hopefully to fully publish numbers and logs etc so you can see how I derived the numbers.

Prexie
10-28-2010, 01:05 AM
EJ's latest stats tables shows:
Hit 3.37 Expertise 3.27 Strength 3.11 Mastery 3.14 Haste 3.23 Crit 2.30 Agility 1.43 Spell Hit 0.91 Weapon DPS 11.25 Weapon Speed 27.27

Notably there values are for a BIS setup and I am not sure how they are getting there number (I have a compaint with EJ stuff there is some vague reference to how they got them I am used to work like theck et al where everything is open) http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t105701-frost_dps_cataclysm_countdown/ and I am assuming they are raid buffed and ICC.

I am coming up with very very diff numbers .. here is what I have noticed so far

There appears to be a some sort of haste cap I am at 689 haste on current gear and I am finding haste value is diminishing rapidly ... yet to do reading on why. I am running in unholy presence so need to look up stuff on this.

Mastery is much more important than any other stat as it increases frost damage as a flat percentage. For example 20 strength produces very little increase in damage 20 mastery produces massive increase in damage so I am yet to fathom how they can have mastery and strength as equal in value.

This may be a distortion of the sorts of fight but weapon speed is of little value. On values I am seeing only its damage matters because it is woven into frost strike http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49143. Our other main attack howling blast http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49184 simply uses AP in its calc. Most of the time my actual melee damage is tiny so not sure how they get weapon speed as important.

So from where I am ATM what I am seeing is

Hit (until cap) > Expertise (cap) > Mastery > Strength >>> Crit (if haste is over 600ish) > Haste

I should get a chance on weekend hopefully to fully publish numbers and logs etc so you can see how I derived the numbers.

The guys on EJ are running Kahories' sim in BiS gear, not just glancing at values from a raid log.

Obliterate (your other main damage attack besides Frost Strike) doesn't deal any frost damage so mastery doesn't benefit it. You only utilize howling blast on a single target fight when you initially apply frost fever or proc rime.

Either way, in live there are no mastery gems and you cannot reforge to strength so their relative itemization values to each other are kinda moot.

The stat priority differences are explained fairly well in Consider's main post. What has you confused about it?

uglybbtoo
10-28-2010, 01:30 AM
Cause just reading it ATM it has been reported to them in there own discussion people noticed it:

QUOTE: "with the priority changed from mastery>haste to haste>mastey as a 2h Frost, I wanted to ask weather there is some sort of softcap for haste. With all crit or haste reforged to mastery, I still have about 650 Haste. When i changed the priority to haste>mastery, it lowered my Dummy-DPS about 1.5k... is this just a matter of training or did I reach some sort of softcap?"

Yet it's sort of ignored in there conclusions

QUOTE:
"Haste is ridiculously strong these days, now that it affects the rate at which runes regenerate. There is a softcap to the stat, but the exact percent amount has yet to be determined (and would vary fight by fight, anyways, pending such factors as AMS soaking, Dark Simulacrum use, and so forth). Rough math would say you only start to get in real trouble when you are heading north of 30%, but it hardly matters; even past the soft-cap, haste rating is still above every other secondary stat except crit."


And I am programmer by trade and build "sims" as you call them and to create the "sim" you need data. I am parsing the data thru a full analysis process as they would have done not merely glancing at logs as you suggest.

There are a few comments that there sim is out from real worl and raid results.

Thats all I am saying is the result is out pure and simple will get to the bottom of it when I have time.

EDIT: I found this an interesting comment "You only utilize howling blast on a single target fight when you initially apply frost fever or proc rime" if you looked at the numbers I am seeing you might want to reconsider that. Again at BiS maybee the numbers reverse and given I don't have access to a toon with BiS I will leave it alone for now.

EDIT: I should also say this is probably getting outside the scope of tankspot discussion being as its a DPS discussion .. Kaz and you moderators please advise?

Assuming we aren't going on I would sort of suggest if you are a Frost DPS keep an eye on EJ's frost forum because there current sim numbers are slightly out and I suspect it is capable of preforming slightly better than they are showing with stat adjustments.

Rampart
10-28-2010, 02:24 AM
EDIT: I should also say this is probably getting outside the scope of tankspot discussion being as its a DPS discussion .. Kaz and you moderators please advise?

Assuming we aren't going on I would sort of suggest if you are a Frost DPS keep an eye on EJ's frost forum because there current sim numbers are slightly out and I suspect it is capable of preforming slightly better than they are showing with stat adjustments.

This is a dps forum, so I don't know why there'd be a problem.

I do know that Frost does insane damage on AoE trash packs. Tough as nails to maintain threat on everything when there is a Frost DK, though still doable with tab-targetting and such. But there single target dps is definitely not as high as Unholy's, which is where it really matters due to bosses.

Prexie
10-28-2010, 02:46 AM
Cause just reading it ATM it has been reported to them in there own discussion people noticed it:

QUOTE: "with the priority changed from mastery>haste to haste>mastey as a 2h Frost, I wanted to ask weather there is some sort of softcap for haste. With all crit or haste reforged to mastery, I still have about 650 Haste. When i changed the priority to haste>mastery, it lowered my Dummy-DPS about 1.5k... is this just a matter of training or did I reach some sort of softcap?"


First, this post received an infraction. Second, he states that he tested on a dummy (inaccurate measure of applicable DPS) and posted no logs, sim data or support for his anecdotes of drastic dps decreases. If there's a question as to why this hurts his post's chance of receiving any sort of serious response, read this: http://considerit1.wordpress.com/2010/10/08/theorycrafting-do-it-right/#more-1449

The people posting about Kahorie's sim giving them greater or lesser EP values for crit and haste depending on whether or not the ICC buff is present is more relevant to the discussion, IMO.



EDIT: I found this an interesting comment "You only utilize howling blast on a single target fight when you initially apply frost fever or proc rime" if you looked at the numbers I am seeing you might want to reconsider that. Again at BiS maybee the numbers reverse and given I don't have access to a toon with BiS I will leave it alone for now.


The screenshots (a recount meter is not a combat log) you posted are not showing individual strike values but rather total damage done from those abilities over the course of a heroic. A 17 second heroic HoS fight is not a large enough sample size to make determining factors on what is a higher damage per rune/gcd investment.

If you're looking at DW Frost, make sure you're combining Obliterate's MH and OH hits when comparing to howling blast. There seems to be a differing opinion on "rune availability for OB vs. blowing F/D runes on HB in the meantime" but our frost DK's logs show average hit and crit for MH/OH being higher on Obliterate than on Howling Blast. This should be the case for every single-target raid boss.
http://worldoflogs.com/reports/sklsl1gya0nhfuw5/details/25/?s=2087&e=2247

For 2Her, the comparison should be easy enough. It could be possible that your 2Her is a very low ilvl item and your howling blast could potentially do more damage than a 2 disease OB. It would be interesting to see a log where that's the case. I just can't see it happening with a ToC or better weapon, though.


EDIT: I should also say this is probably getting outside the scope of tankspot discussion being as its a DPS discussion .. Kaz and you moderators please advise?

Assuming we aren't going on I would sort of suggest if you are a Frost DPS keep an eye on EJ's frost forum because there current sim numbers are slightly out and I suspect it is capable of preforming slightly better than they are showing with stat adjustments.As stated above, this is in the DPS discussion section of Tankspot so it's fair game.

uglybbtoo
10-28-2010, 03:18 AM
Okay bear with me because I am not the guru on DPS I am much more comfortable around tanks and tank sims. I have organize a run thru ICC on saturday so I should have alot better data which I will publish.

However I will ask you a generic question if I may because you are obviously a DPS'er which I sort of picked up on your answer for single target and I am NOT implying you are right or wrong so please bear with me I am trying to understand where to extend my sim work. Why are they loading up on mastery which only increases frost damage if on single target they only use HB to keep frost fever on and frost strike? At BiS does frost fever become really significant or does frost strike damage grow hugely?

As you say I have 15-30 sec real life combat logs or long periods on heroic dummy to go off .. which i readily acknowledge.

Second one is why are they ignoring the haste cap effect or does the actual melee damage come up to compensate for the drop off?

Prexie
10-28-2010, 04:18 AM
This shows the secondary stat scaling for BiS DW Frost currently, http://considerit1.files.wordpress.com/2010/10/frostdwscaling.png

Values could be different for 2Her but I'm not positive on that and have not personally run my own simulations to chart relative values. I only have Consider's values but considering I can't think of a time where my coefficient tests on Beta or Kahorie's sims have run counter to his data. You'll notice that strength and mastery behave in a linear fashion while haste has minor plateaus and such, eventually scaling equal or worse to crit around 800 rating.

I didn't say JUST when FF needs refreshing. Rime procs are used for HB as well.

Mastery affects your Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Frost Fever damage (Icy Touch as well but that's rarely used by frost post 4.0.1). Frost DPS owes very little of their total damage output to the actual disease damage (FF accounts for ~4-5% of our DWer's dps). The major thing is the significance of having both diseases up to maximize obliterate damage. Mastery is currently scaling better than haste and crit for DW while 2H is seeing a better result with haste over mastery due to haste's interaction with unholy presence and more RP gains from MotFW procs.

Obliterate and Frost Strike are Frost's highest portion of damage done on single target fights. They'll trade places depending on mastery, but they're pretty even for both specs currently.

Side note: I don't take offense to differing opinions or anything of that sort so don't worry if you're implying whether I'm right or wrong :). It's just a process with testing and hypotheses. If I'm making a claim where it's speculation rather than a statistically significant statement or postulate, I try to make sure that's clear. I don't believe anyone here is trying to be malicious, but rather just gather the correct information.

Dummies serve a good purpose for learning new rotations, checking spell coefficients, and things of that nature. It's just good practice to avoid using them to make theories about raid dps, relative class differences and such which is a problem commonly seen in trade chat, official forums and random posts on EJ that eventually end up in the dung heap.

uglybbtoo
10-28-2010, 05:53 PM
If you read the all the above posts I am not seriously recommending anything for raid DPS'ers my data is not scaled up high enough or accurate enough at the moment for that.

At the moment all my data is good for is setting up histrionics thru heroics. So for peeps who don't have access to BiS gear because of raid situations as is the case with my DK alt the data I am gathering may be of some use.

As for the actual data my 1H data looks almost identical to the graphs you show but my 2H data has a marked plateau at 600 haste and it varies between Frost and Unholy presence ... I will get my web server back online on weekend and post some data an links.

At the moment having some fun and fine tuning stuff and its working basically lifted my heroic dummy DPS to 7.8K which would be VERY VERY VERY low by your standards but for my crap gear it's not bad :-) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/00x1m63oo0b1eupb/sum/damageDone/

It is however getting a little rough for most tanks in heroics because I can get to that level very fast. As we aren't raiding now till cata I have organized to do a few ICC runs and will see where this all goes I am uncertain if my interest will keep up.

Thanks for all your help been most insightful and very very helpful as I said I really have never done DPS for a long long time.

Sterbefall
11-01-2010, 05:11 AM
You're skewing your HB numbers by using dummies. If you look at what the HBs hit, you'll see that you're hitting a second dummy. Your DPS could very well be higher than Oblit, but it's misleading because your single target DPS is lowered.

Krenian
11-01-2010, 06:36 AM
I wouldn't be worried about discussing DPS stuff in the DPS section. It is, what the forum's title is, being used for what is meant to be used: Discuss DPS.

Keep trudging.

uglybbtoo
11-01-2010, 10:45 PM
You're skewing your HB numbers by using dummies. If you look at what the HBs hit, you'll see that you're hitting a second dummy. Your DPS could very well be higher than Oblit, but it's misleading because your single target DPS is lowered.

Yeah it's hard to get an angle the HB doesn't hit another on heroics but my parser filters all that out and you can sort of filter it on WOTL just choose the target actor

Goto here http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/00x1m63oo0b1eupb/details/3/
Now select damage by actor .. choose the heroic dummy and you will end here
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/00x1m63oo0b1eupb/details/6/

You will see it doesn't change HB average damage per hit 6461.7 .. obliterate 6162.8
The crits come up very clsoe because of the glyph etc for obliterate
HB crit average 13856.8 obliterate average 13835.5

EDIT: Again I should say this only applies to my current gear level for those more geared stick with EJ's because I have no numbers on HB versus Obliterate at those levels and the scalings may take Obliterate past HB. However if you are in lower gear like me it may be worth looking on heroic dummy to see if HB or obiterate does more damage.

I have raid data from heroics bosses and VOA 25 I did saturday which shows the same but looking forward to this afternoons ICC run to get some real data. My VOA damage for torovan was 10348 dps which I was very happy with even though I lost rotation a few times.

Sterbefall
11-03-2010, 08:41 AM
A couple things. First, I'm pretty sure WoL doesn't properly show ToT (making Obliterate look much weaker than it is). Second, Rime means that Obliterate gives you the damage of Obliterate + 45% of the damage of a HB over the long haul. It is not better to use HB over Obliterate.

HB is superior for multiple targets, Obliterate is better for single.

uglybbtoo
11-03-2010, 08:04 PM
Two problems which I have dealt with above:

First: WoL is doing the same as I am parsing the entries in the combat the log so unless blizzard doesn't record the sources correctly that simply doesn't add up.

Secondly: Practical logs both on heroic dummy and actual runs were showing higher dps using HB.


Now and most importantly I say were because I very recently changed weapons (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Saurfang&cn=Ubbdk) I had enough honour points to buy the PVP 2H sword and initial testing with it is showing very different results and I am see why EJ's gets different numbers now http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49020 is based alot on weapon damage.


So I feel comfortable in saying that it's still a test thing that DPS should do. In BiS gear with a big arse weapon yes Obliterate is better to use than HB but it is not always the case in lesser gear. The reason is simply without really high weapon damage it wont scale like HB does.

EDIT: I guess what people need to learn most from all this is data is always skewed and not always tested across full ranges even from very reputable sources like EJ's. It also means advice is only valid for the range it was tested in a point I have conceeded all the way thru with my data which was showing much different to EJ's.

EDIT: My concern for DPS community is there seems to be a blind faith in EJ's and don't get me wrong there work is first class BUT the data isn't opened up for scrutiny and range limits of testing isn't given. What I have found in this journey is alot of advice is been dished out on ranges of gear that haven't been tested and if you aren't geared towards BiS you need to take all advice understanding that.

EDIT: In no way is this an attack on EJ's I feel they do a fanatastic job unfortunately they also spawn some blind zealots.

Sterbefall
11-04-2010, 08:59 AM
The combat log shows Obliterates when DWing as two separate entries. You're now using a 2H weapon so this doesn't happen as you don't use ToT.

You've shown one log and that one had you hitting a second enemy with HB. Your actual runs are also mostly trash. Currently, HB gets priority in multiple target situations. For strictly single target, Obliterate is better.

I still don't buy the idea that HB is a better choice than Obliterate in single target situations as you still haven't addressed my above point about Rime modifying the value of Obliterate assuming the numbers listed in your log were correct (which I'm still not convinced of because my own WoL reports using near BiS DW weapons show HB average doing more damage than Obliterate which I know isn't true for ST).

uglybbtoo
11-04-2010, 07:30 PM
It's relatively simple to understand and infact I was kicking myself for being so stupid.

Howling blast (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49184) uses only AP in it's calc
Obliterate (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=49020) uses only weapon damage

What happens as you are gearing up is it's easier to get top end armor gear so you AP rapidly increases and you are reforging frost damage so it scales very fast. Weapons on the other hand you really don't get access to until running ICC or like in my case get the PVP one.

It's only when you get access to better weapons that the numbers start to reverse and I imagine by really high end it's quite a margin.

Assuming you have around 5500AP which is sort of all the 264/251 badge gear level this is sort of a simplification of what I am seeing.

ilvl 232 weapon (all 232.7DPS) HB will be higher by along way
ilvl 251 weapon (all 267.3 DPS) Very close HB marginally ahead
ilvl 264 weapon (all 294.8 DPS) Obliterate comfortably ahead

Within an iLvl of weapon there is only small shifts in number based on top end/bottom end damage and the stats on weapon so in my defense in my initial work I didn't think about weapon being crucial to the effect I was seeing.

Sterbefall
11-05-2010, 08:33 AM
I checked and WoL doesn't show Obliterate damage correctly. I had 32k Oblit crits last night and WoL only shows about 20k.

Obliterate is not strictly modified by weapon damage. It is normalized.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Normalization

Yves
11-07-2010, 10:51 AM
Is anybody using Frost DPS spec 3/31/2 with 2H weapon?
I am currently using 2x1Handed weapon, doing pretty fine.

But was wondering if 2H was better or at least equal to 2x1Handed.

Had a battered hilt drop, and i am undecided if i should sell it or trade it in for the 2H wep.

Nerrectuz
11-07-2010, 04:04 PM
As a former Blood DPS death knight prior to path 4.0.1, I changed to Unholy DPS, and with recent spec opinions gave Frost a chance. With Unholy I felt middle-tier with any 10m RAID, and while I did fairly well, it never felt like I did what I could.

With Frost spec, I have noticed a drastic performance change using the ideas of rotation and talent choices provided here in this post. Frost has changed my DPS to not drop and my total damage to increase significantly. In a raid environment it can be difficult when Single Target is the case, but when you have multiple trash with Boss it is overkill and noticeable that your damage is there.

I suggest for any straight DPS players using the two, try Unholy spec and Frost Spec as OS, and run a raid, switching off between the two depending on your boss encounter and the Single/Multi target situation, you'll see what I mean.

Frost is easier I believe to play, while Unholy has more and's and if's tied to it, when you wait for cooldowns and runes to regen. Just my two cents, will keep an update of what I discover in my next ICC 10man.

uglybbtoo
11-07-2010, 07:31 PM
I checked and WoL doesn't show Obliterate damage correctly. I had 32k Oblit crits last night and WoL only shows about 20k.

Obliterate is not strictly modified by weapon damage. It is normalized.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Normalization

I don't use WOL for my data anyhow and it's simple to prove and hence not worth the arguement ... try it.

Lets assume you are in 271 gear or whatever use recount or whatever you want to record you dps. Now switch to a much lower weapon and of coarse you DPS will drop because melee + frost strike + obliterate all have weapon damage tied up in them in varying degrees. If you look at recount for example your howling blast damage is almost entirely unaffected as it only uses AP which is on your gear and only difference in stats between weapon will affect it.

In this situation slotting in extra Howling blasts will increase your damage over running "proper rotation" just based on damage levels of each of the abilities. Yes you lose proc and benificial effects etc etc no arguement and you can never reach your original DPS but your DPS will be higher that running a correct rotation.

This is the effect that we were seeking to understand ... it is a total mismatch between gear and weapon that produces the anomoly.


EDIT: Cheers for alerting me to the normalization however because I had been scratching my head trying to work out why there was less movement in the numbers for weapons of same ilevel. Helped me alot .. this has been quite a journey so far :-)

uglybbtoo
11-07-2010, 07:43 PM
Is anybody using Frost DPS spec 3/31/2 with 2H weapon?
I am currently using 2x1Handed weapon, doing pretty fine.

But was wondering if 2H was better or at least equal to 2x1Handed.

Had a battered hilt drop, and i am undecided if i should sell it or trade it in for the 2H wep.

Just to make life confusing both normal specs for frost 2x1h and 2H are 3/31/2

2x1H spec is generally http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#j0hZMI0rfuRzfz0b:amM0
2H spec is genrally http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#j0hZGc0rfuRzbu0b:amM0

And neither works well with wrong spec because of the talent shifts based on the weapons you intend to use. On the gear levels available to me there is not much in it either way assuming similar level weapons.

Rennadrel
11-07-2010, 08:25 PM
You're skewing your HB numbers by using dummies. If you look at what the HBs hit, you'll see that you're hitting a second dummy. Your DPS could very well be higher than Oblit, but it's misleading because your single target DPS is lowered.

My DK is almost hit capped, and fully expertise capped with very little in the ways of good gear, and as Frost Obliterate hits like a Mack truck. Half my gear is either blues or cheap epics with gems and no enchants, my Obliterate is hitting for 10-12k crits in a 5 man. My characters GS on WoW Heroes is only 2400 :P

Frost in my opinion has an upside for AoE with the amount of damage Howling Blast has, it's pretty disgusting in 5 mans that it crits for 11k on the main target and is hitting 5k on every other target in it's range.

I think dual wield Frost DPS will be better in Cataclysm then it is now because the weapons will be optimized for it better.

penademuerte
11-11-2010, 06:56 PM
I am using 3/31/2 on my Dk Latormenta on Korgath and it is insane on trash in ICC, on the trash right before rot and festergut, I had a 32k dps spike and leveled off at 23k, and on bosses like saurfang and festergut i was staying at 11-12k so it is good. I am sure that blizzard will nerf it cause all the other classes will be griping about the DK's being to OP. On the question of the battered hilt I would sell it cause sure as the world you turn it in a bryntroll will drop for you or something like that.

uglybbtoo
11-14-2010, 07:27 PM
It's not that frost DK's are OP its a scaling issue that they get higher DPS alot earlier than unholy. It's alot like paladin's doing 1.2-1.6K at level 60 which is alot more than any other class but then it all levels back. A frost DK at level 60 (I am raising a new one to plot DPS at lower levels) only does 400-600DPS because we don't have howling blast.

Unholy are definitely doing more damage in the higher gear bracket but they need the gear to pull it off. Given that why would blizz nerf frost DK's .. enjoy the fun :-)

Basically I would say if you are a DK and don't have access to raid gear you probably should be in frost. I really hate gearscore but GS terms thats sort of 4700-5600 and assuming normal Justice point gear. There is a massive difference between frost and unholy DPS at this gear level.

Cocktales
11-14-2010, 07:44 PM
why are you guys so excited about AoE damage and dps on a heroic boss. If you were decently geared you should have already pulled these numbers in unholy or frost. Whoopdy doo da.

uglybbtoo
11-14-2010, 07:55 PM
If you aren't top end gear near BiS frost will out DPS unholy even on single target. In unholy in my current gear I do 7K tops on fights like fester and saurfang as opposed to 11K+ in frost ... THATS THE POINT.

AOE and heroics is just fun.

No-one is knocking unholy at all but not everyone has access to BiS gear.

Cocktales
11-14-2010, 08:23 PM
AoE and heroics doesnt count though. Besides, that stuff was normal in 3.3 even out of BiS. My point i guess is that this isnt magic, its always been this way

Karhazn
11-15-2010, 03:12 PM
The thing about Unholy vs Dw frost is that Unholy currently requires a much higher haste level, nearing the soft cap, to see its dps excel. In 25-man t10 you can start seeing Unholy dps closing the gap and then exceeding the gap as gear increases. Because it's so gear dependant you may find that you personally do more dps as frost (talking purely single target raid dps now), depending on gear others may find different results.

erox1000
11-17-2010, 06:36 PM
Looking for help with right rotation and what do i need to be building most. AP, crit, etc...

uglybbtoo
11-17-2010, 09:32 PM
STAT PRIOTITIES:

1.) Hit (until 8% )
2.) Expertise (until 200 rating)
3.) Haste till 600 rating
4.) Strength
5.) Mastery
6.) Haste beyond 600 rating
7.) Crit
8.) Agility
9.) Spell Hit


REFORGING:
1.) Crit to mastery on items
2.) Any excess hit/expertise to mastery


PRESENCE: Unholy.
***EJ's and others say unholy for single target, Frost for AOE I find on my gear staying unholy works better ... so I would say check which for AOE.


PRIORITY:
1) Killing machine -> Frost strike (Learn to recognize UI animation)
2.)Keep frost disease running -> Howling blast
3.)keep blood plague running -> Plague strike
4.)Rime -> Howling blast (Learn to recognize UI animation)
5.)**Obliterate
6.) Howling blast
7.) Blood Srike (Locked out because you have no runes left ^-^ )

**Obliterate: For low gear levels go onto heroic target and check the damage of obliterate versus howling blast. If howling blast is significantly higher than obliterate ignore obliterate. Obliterate scales mainly off weapon damage while howling blast scales off AP so at low levels HB often does alot more damage than obliterate and can be ignored as it basically just gives free HB's via rime.


CLC_DK addon is useful if you want a visual queue on screen.

Sterbefall
11-18-2010, 11:49 AM
You only need 177 expertise (23) for Wrath content.

Also, the above guide is geared toward 2 handers. DW need less hit (strange but true), weighing in at 146 IIRC because of NoCS. DW also ST DPS in Frost Presence.

That priority system also seems wrong. Obliterate hits harder than Frost Strike, so KM procs should optimally be used for Obliterate first. Howling Blast should be left off the priority listing unless it's used to apply FF or consuming a Rime proc. EJ has the optimal rotation, however, for simplicity I chop off some of it in my head to make it easier:

1) Diseases (applied with HB and PS)
2) Rime
3) Obliterate
4) Blood Strike if Blood Rune (not death) ready
5) Frost Strike
6) Horn of Winter

The EJ priority priority helps address the fact that Frost Strike gains priority when there is no KM proc and you're already RP capped (because you'll be wasting RP if you don't consume some before using a rune attack).

As for your ** note, I still contend that you're ignoring the Rime component, which is important. In order for HB to be more worthwhile single target than Obliterate, the following would need to be satisfied:

Let X = Obliterate damage.
Let Y = HB damage

In order for HB to be better than Obliterate, Obliterate (and associated Rime) needs to be less than HB. In math:
X + 0.45Y < Y
Let's simplify!
100X + 45Y < 100Y
100X < 55Y
X < 0.55Y

In other words, Obliterate needs to be nearly half as weak as a single HB in order for HB to be higher priority. I've never seen such a situation. Weaker weapon damage is not enough to cause this as Obliterate is normalized.

uglybbtoo
11-18-2010, 05:26 PM
ALL rime does is give you a ZERO cost howling blast http://www.wowhead.com/spell=59057 If you were simply spamming howling blast you would have still inserted the howling blast it just would have cost runes.

It doesnt make the spell instant or do extra damage or anything else so you maths is total falacious because you are somehow adding in 0.45Y. When obliterate and howling blast are close you start using obliterate because the extra free runes starts to matter because you end up less often down having to blood strike.

Edit: I have had several EJ zealots arguing about using obliterate and saying I am wrong they keep quoting some 45% but noone has yet explained where this 45% comes from. I can only think they mean the annilation talent but that 45% extra is already added into the obliterate number recorded in the logs. As I have said a number of times I simply a programmer looking at the numbers in the logs and producing modelling.

This is not something we pulled out of simulation or some crap if you read the posts above we have like EJ's run numbers on it over and over.

Finally the priority you list above is exactly the same as the one I listed if you look carefully except priority 1 and you added frost strike/horn of winter after my list which would be the only things left you could press if blood strike was also on rune lock out.

You do bring up a good point however I took priority 1 off EJ's blindly I will indeed go and check numbers to see if frost strike crits are always bigger than obliterate crits at gear levels because killing machine just simply guarantees next swing is a crit http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51128 so you want to use the biggest.

EDIT: Just checked all the logs I have at hand and frost strike crits are bigger than obliterate crits but I will conceed this needs to be tested still it may not hold over all gear levels.

EDIT: I should also say sterball is correct the expertise level is 177 I havent updated my data. And the above info is for 2H frost sorry forgot to tag that in the top.

uglybbtoo
11-18-2010, 07:19 PM
Ok I have been thru the suggestion to use Obliterate instead of Frost strike on KM and it has merit if obliterate is criting for you more than frost strike. Unfortunately my sim won't give me results because it is telling me there is going to be rune flow issues but I am not happy to say this is real because I would have done very little rune flow with this priority seq.

This close in to cata by the time I prove or disprove with good data it will be cata time :-) The reality is even if obliterate was critting for 3K more than frost strike the net change in DPS is around 320DPS. At my highest gear levels I have Frost strike crits 13-16K and Obliterate crits 12-15K but I presume in BiS obliterate will overhail frost strike.

So I will reconcile this as a post below to make a sort of combined sticky ... Again and as always this is sort a short form recomendation for the really nitt picky stuff with straining the last couple of hundred DPS hit the EJ's forums.

uglybbtoo
11-18-2010, 07:25 PM
AMENDED 2H FROST DK SETUP

STAT PRIOTITIES:

1.) Hit (until 8% )
2.) Expertise (until 177 rating)(23 expertise)
3.) Haste till 600 rating
4.) Strength
5.) Mastery
6.) Haste beyond 600 rating
7.) Crit
8.) Agility
9.) Spell Hit


REFORGING:
1.) Crit to mastery on items
2.) Any excess hit/expertise to mastery


PRESENCE: Unholy.
*EJ's and others say unholy for single target, Frost for AOE I find on my gear staying unholy works better ... so I would say check which for AOE.


PRIORITY:
1) Killing machine -> **Frost strike/**Obliterate (Learn to recognize UI animation)
2.) Keep frost disease running -> Howling blast
3.) Keep blood plague running -> Plague strike
4.) Rime -> Howling blast (Learn to recognize UI animation)
5.) ***Obliterate
6.) Howling blast
7.) Blood Srike (Locked out because you have no runes left ^-^ )
8.) Frost strike
9.) Horn of winter

** Confirm which crit does more damage Frost strike or obliterate. Try other and confirm rune flow is not an issue.

***Obliterate: For low gear levels go onto heroic target and check the damage of obliterate versus howling blast. If howling blast is significantly higher than obliterate ignore obliterate. Obliterate scales mainly off weapon damage while howling blast scales off AP so at low levels HB often does alot more damage than obliterate and can be ignored as it basically just gives free HB's via rime.

CLC_DK addon is useful if you want a visual queue on screen.

Krenian
11-19-2010, 11:57 AM
You might wanna look up Annihilation to figure out where they're pulling the 45% out of.

uglybbtoo
11-20-2010, 01:59 AM
http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51473 the extra 45% is recorded in the actual obliterate data ... its even written like how you would expect it work. Respec take the talent out and go hit something and you will see obliterate damage is down.

We are comparing the raw hits of obliterate and howling blast and that already includes annilation so I repeat where is the extra 45% coming from. I am willing to be wrong here I am not infalable but sorry I cant see how they keep coming up with this because the data simply doesn't show it.

uglybbtoo
11-20-2010, 07:07 AM
To again help doubters I post another 3min bash on the heroic dummies in my highest gear

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/

To remove the splash of aoe on the targets along side select on the actual heroic target
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/details/7/


Frost Strike (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49143/)average hit5983.8 average crit 12176.2
Howling Blast (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49184/)average hit 6354.9 average crit 13160.0
Obliterate (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49020/)average hit6139.6 average crit12905.9



Again they are all in same ball park but howling blast is still higher.


So now notice that obliterate did 159757 total damage so you need to find 45% or 71890.65 somehow not recorded to obliterate but to make up your missing 45% as to why you are selecting it. The only number at that sort of level are clearly marked as plague strike, frost fever, blood strike and blood plague.

I am open to suggestions for interpretation ... I have provided evidence, details and logs to highlight my decisions. Against this I fight but EJ's says it isnt so and I should use obliterate?

EDIT: Can I also ask anyone in close to BiS gear to post a run against heroic dummy would love to see numbers would help me immensely to put values at top end of my curves.

killabee
11-22-2010, 08:29 AM
The "mysterious" 45% that was referenced here is 45% of an extra rune-free HB that is triggered by Obliterate when specced to Rime. The math is done this way due to 45% trigger chance with 3/3 Rime, so using Obliterate instead of HB gives you Oblit damage + 45% of HB damage.

Is this math always true? No it isn't. If your haste is high enough, so your rune regeneration time + RP generation allow you to always have an attack available, such that Rime doesn't give you an extra attack, but a choice to replace an attack with Rime. Such high haste values are certainly available at 80 and BiS Frost setup runs into this problem often.

Is this math totally wrong? No, it's pretty damn close, since the question here was whether to use HB or Oblit, you'll always want to use Oblit to proc HB, since HB a high damage attack that you get to use for free and it even generates RP due to Chill of the Grave. This math is especially close, since the question whether to prioritize Oblit or HB is only relevant for gear set ups that are very far away from BiS; and such set ups won't have the required haste level to become GCD capped.

At 85, the GCD cap won't be available at least for a few tier levels, and hopefully, if Blizzard learned from their mistakes and they said they did, it will never be available in this expansion.

uglybbtoo
11-22-2010, 11:40 AM
That makes absolutely no sense why just because its free is the HB worth worth 45% more ... you are working on GCD to GCD anyhow you almost never out of runes if you setup the way we suggested. Sorry the free HB is worth exactly the same with or without rime.

Plz note I am not at all arguing against obliterate when the numbers show it would give more damage .. infact my numbers are trending to end up in sync with EJ's. The problem I see is the range on EJ's details are very narrow like you must be in alot of heroic gear and they really don't discuss or publish the range of there results.

The fact is my advice is correct for probably 80% of dps dk's because they aren't in hard core raiding guilds and I make that very explicit. I fully suggest that hard core raiders seek advice EJ's because I really do not have any data.

It's the same story with the whole rune power changing which attack to use in low level gear it's all crap it moves dps like 100 DPS. I looked at it and it soon became apparent it isn't worth even looking at and you just ignore now that is not true in BiS gear given what they have shown in detail.

Krenian
11-22-2010, 11:51 AM
Been too long since I've really analyzed Frost honestly so I couldn't tell you where it's coming from. I'll leave it to the other experts on this one. If it comes to a point that it simply cannot be resolved, I'll look into it when I'm bored.

Sad to say but DKs are not even close to the top of my priority lists anymore. :(

Sterbefall
11-22-2010, 01:43 PM
At your level of gear, I don't know how you're GCD capping and I'm close, but not capped (even less so lately because I need Chillblains in my spec for H LK). As long as you keep a GCD free, Rime is bonus damage. The math on this is not hard. We're constrained by the GCD and resources. In the case that you're GCD constrained, the most you're wasting is RP because rune attacks take priority. As for where I'm getting my numbers, feel free to browse my guild's WoL. I'm Sterbefall in it.

http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/35232/

Dummy logs are a notoriously bad way to measure things.

It's curious that your HB is hitting harder than Obliterate. The best explanation is small sample size and the way the procs lined up. You should also note the relative crit percentages of your attacks. Both FS and Obliterate have 66% crit rates (thanks to KM) while HB crits a quarter of the time. Taking crits into account, Obliterate is still the right choice.

killabee
11-22-2010, 07:09 PM
uglybbtoo, you may want to read my post again, you clearly don't understand it.


That makes absolutely no sense why just because its free is the HB worth worth 45% more ... you are working on GCD to GCD anyhow you almost never out of runes if you setup the way we suggested. Sorry the free HB is worth exactly the same with or without rime.

HB isn't worth 45% more (more than what btw?). Obliterate has a 45% to proc Rime, allowing a rune free HB, thus the effective cost of pressing your Obliterate button is Obliterate damage + 45% of HB damage. Get it? If you "almost never run out of runes" then your gear level is close to BiS. however, I know that your gear is far from BiS, thus your degree of "almost" is very different from mine. In addition, there is no such thing as free HB without Rime.


Plz note I am not at all arguing against obliterate when the numbers show it would give more damage .. infact my numbers are trending to end up in sync with EJ's. The problem I see is the range on EJ's details are very narrow like you must be in alot of heroic gear and they really don't discuss or publish the range of there results.

You're right, EJ target audience is the people who want to squeeze the extra 0.5% DPS, because it matters for the hardest fights they do, thus the target level of gear assumed high. It doesn't make any difference what you prioritize/gem/gear in Heroic 5 men dungeons. You will beat it anyway, making the extra 0.5% DPS discussion irrelevant.



The fact is my advice is correct for probably 80% of dps dk's because they aren't in hard core raiding guilds and I make that very explicit. I fully suggest that hard core raiders seek advice EJ's because I really do not have any data.

It's the same story with the whole rune power changing which attack to use in low level gear it's all crap it moves dps like 100 DPS. I looked at it and it soon became apparent it isn't worth even looking at and you just ignore now that is not true in BiS gear given what they have shown in detail.

See above.

uglybbtoo
11-22-2010, 07:16 PM
Thank you for the log will be interesting to get an analysis.

If you read up I am not just using hours of dummy results I have 160 ish heroics, 31 VOA's and 11 ICC runs now I am using data off would like more but am limited to 2 test toons.

If you re-read I didn't talk about GCD capped I discussed GCD locked. That is that when my GCD comes up I am free to use the attack I wish too and I discussed rune flow making sure you had runes to use the higher level attacks. This may be one source of why EJ's data doesn't hold across lower gear levels is we have no ability to reach anywhere near the haste cap it's also why the advice is to simply reach the first soft cap at 600 haste where the curve starts to flatten to the next inflexion point at 828 haste.

The reason HB hits harder than obliterate is easy look at how they scale obliterate off normalized weapon damage and howling blast off AP. We are also stacking mastery on gear and I for example have 34% increasee in frost damage from mastery and only have an ilevel 264 weapon. It's sort of discussed and you will find if you pick up a low level weapon go over to dummy and run some hits. If you look your howling blast numbers will almost entirely be unaffected but your obliterate damage will be thru floor. Look at your new numbers you have changed only 1 piece of gear and tell me would you really still use obliterate based on those damage levels. I would be interested if you could confirm this effect even in high level gear.

Essentially everything changes the moment you get access to a heroic 271+ weapon.
At level 264 weapon everything is almost equal as per the results I gave you ... I do use obliterate but only because it gives me better rune flow.
At lower weapon levels howling blast is alot stronger than obliterate.

The problem for this spec-class EJ's recomendations are based around 271+ weapons yet there are alot of players who won't have access to that and at 264 level gearing and lower there recommendations simply don't work.

uglybbtoo
11-22-2010, 07:27 PM
uglybbtoo, you may want to read my post again, you clearly don't understand it.

HB isn't worth 45% more (more than what btw?). Obliterate has a 45% to proc Rime, allowing a rune free HB, thus the effective cost of pressing your Obliterate button is Obliterate damage + 45% of HB damage. Get it? If you "almost never run out of runes" then your gear level is close to BiS. however, I know that your gear is far from BiS, thus your degree of "almost" is very different from mine. In addition, there is no such thing as free HB without Rime.
.

I did read it and you are talking about GCD capping not GCD locked which is the big difference.

Ok think about it we have some haste level which gives us a GCD time it actually doesn't matter what it is because we are talking about rotation here and it's the same for both rotations.

So long as we can use the attack we want to via our priority list we are therefore not GCD locked (IE prevented from using the attack we want to).

Now go back to what I said if I am not GCD locked how is obliterate worth anymore than Howling blast if it does less damage. Your free howling blast would be worth something if I was GCD locked but at this gear level you don't have enough haste to get GCD locked using the normal priority rotation.

I understand what you are saying it's just wrong I have data and analysis on my side what are you basing your view on?

EDIT: Originally I was querying where you got 45% from but really re-reading your answer I can say you proved you are wrong yourself. If you don't get an extra attack in then as we said the rime proc is worth nothing and actually by doing what you are suggesting you take your dps down by the difference between HB and Obliterate. When I get a chance tonight will beat up a dummy and show you what happens when I do what you want and my dps will drop, actually you won't believe me anyhow perhaps I will leave it for you to prove that I am not right.

killabee
11-22-2010, 08:09 PM
You're mixing things up again. Rime HB is more DPS because you don't have the resources to utilize every free GCD. Rime gives you the extra resource to use. This is my last post on the subject.

uglybbtoo
11-22-2010, 08:14 PM
But I do have the resources I am afraid :-)

I have given you data and results to show you I do ... how much more proof do you want!

I have run data across almost every gear I can lay my hands on below 264.

Now time to prove or even explain what data you are extracting from to make this statement ... otherwise this is rather pointless.

uglybbtoo
11-22-2010, 08:24 PM
Sterbefall I took one of your 8m H-LK runs and was looking at the details .. I isolated the damage against LK himself so single target

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/xy8in2vat154o83j/details/9/?s=13061&e=13577

Can I ask what weapon you are currently using?
EDIT: Don't worry found you on armory you are dual weilding which is part of the variation in data I was seeing .. it's ok I have adjustments for dual weilding so let me resume.

It will take me a while to do the XML extraction of the log data but it is interesting what I am seeing so far ^_^

EDIT: Okay extracted good data from the festergut fight http://worldoflogs.com/reports/kc5nsk65yi7xumzn/details/15/?s=8378&e=8584 which is basically a stand and whack. Could I get you to do me one favour whack a heroic dummy and put the log up I just need to normalize out the raid buffs to your gear .. if you could would be greatly appreciated.

EDIT: BTW because your 1H is about the same level of damage as an ilvl 251 2H look at the size of howling blast to obliterate :-) You are dual weilding so you get two of every other attack except howling blast but it does show neatly how howling blast scales with gear rather than weapon. This is what is going to happen if you used a low level 2H in the test I suggested your Howling balst will be largely unaffected but your obliterate damage will drop down to about the level of your single main hand or lower.

uglybbtoo
11-23-2010, 01:56 AM
I thought I would as a final way of showing effect I would take things to extremes

I went and bought a http://www.wowhead.com/item=1198 and headed down to the heroic dummy and changing only it leaving all my gear exactly as it was.

Here is my log again paired back to single target on heroic target itself

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6f0ecgeasiggvvtu/details/6/


remember these were my original values with a 264 weapon
Frost Strike (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49143/)average hit5983.8 average crit 12176.2
Howling Blast (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49184/)average hit 6354.9 average crit 13160.0
Obliterate (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49020/)average hit6139.6 average crit 12905.9

so what are they now with this ridiculously low weapon:
Frost Strike (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49143/) average hit 3261.4 average crit 6727.6
Howling Blast (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49184/) average hit 5533.5 average crit 12556.5
Obliterate (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/spell/49020/) average hit 3499.5 average crit 7926.8

Exactly as predicted Howling blast is almost completely unaffected the difference will be weapon stats and the chant on the weapon.
Frost strike and obliterate values have been halved.

So I put it to you would you ever use obliterate rather than howling blast based on these numbers?

In essence it is showing you in extreme how unrelated the damages are and why the anomoly exists at lower gear level because it is alot easier to get high end armor than it is to get a high end weapon.

EDIT: It also worth noting have a low weapon actually brings down almost every damage except howling blast hence why the weapon you have access to is so crucial.

killabee
11-23-2010, 07:28 AM
But I do have the resources I am afraid :-)

I have given you data and results to show you I do ... how much more proof do you want!

I have run data across almost every gear I can lay my hands on below 264.

Now time to prove or even explain what data you are extracting from to make this statement ... otherwise this is rather pointless.

Sure,

Lets look at the two WoL parses you provided,

1) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/details/7/
2) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6f0ecgeasiggvvtu/details/6/

In parse 1) you have done 130 yellow hits over 190 seconds, which gives us ~0.68 attacks per seconds (ApS) which is 32% less than the possible maximum rate of 1 attack per seconds.

In parse 2) you have done 77 yellow hits over 105 seconds for ~0.73 ApS, 27% less than optimal.

There are only two explanations - you didn't have enough resources to utilize every GCD or you're bad/slow at decision making+button pressing. Now, I'd like to give you the benefit of a doubt that your decision making is fine and you utilize the built in action queuing feature to the fullest, which leaves us with the assumption that you are indeed resource bound.

As a (unfair) comparison, our good friend Sterbefall in his recent Festergut 25 heroic, did 299 attacks over 204 seconds for an amazing 1.46 ApS. Notice that he is dual wielding, so he is in Frost Presence, thus 1.5 GCD. Then, as I said, the comparison is bad since it's a raid with full buffs and BL, while your parses are target dummy testing, but you get the point...

Now, just to put us on the same page here:

- You were arguing the priorities posted on EJ are not for everyone because you saw different results in your testing. You also established that the difference in results were due to the level of weapon that you used. No disagreement here.
- Then your argument changed to be that for low level gear (I don't know exactly what you mean by low, but you did say weapon below 271 ilvl) you can always prioritize HB over Obliterate based just on the difference in the damage (HB being harder hitting), completely ignoring the Rime proc, since you're not resource capped . You based your conclusion on dummy testing, VoA and 5 men Heroics (although, you only provided target dummy parses). This is where I disagree with you. As I showed above taking your target dummy parses as an example, you are indeed resource capped, thus the decision of whether to prioritize HB or Oblit is not trivial. At the same time, the math is pretty easy and was provided by the poster of post #53 in this thread, which you ignored, because you didn't understand it. This is where my first post in this thread came from.

uglybbtoo
11-23-2010, 09:29 AM
Sure,

Lets look at the two WoL parses you provided,

1) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/h55thkzfrcm2g7do/details/7/
2) http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6f0ecgeasiggvvtu/details/6/

In parse 1) you have done 130 yellow hits over 190 seconds, which gives us ~0.68 attacks per seconds (ApS) which is 32% less than the possible maximum rate of 1 attack per seconds.

In parse 2) you have done 77 yellow hits over 105 seconds for ~0.73 ApS, 27% less than optimal.

There are only two explanations - you didn't have enough resources to utilize every GCD or you're bad/slow at decision making+button pressing. Now, I'd like to give you the benefit of a doubt that your decision making is fine and you utilize the built in action queuing feature to the fullest, which leaves us with the assumption that you are indeed resource bound.


0.68-0.73 Attacks per is my haste factor (I have a proc haste trinket btw which is the reason for slight variation and keypressing) so let average it at 0.7 attack per second or 1.42 seconds per attack. The only way I can get more attacks is to stack haste but we are talking rotation not changing gear because my gear is fixed.

I am sure we have crossed wires here because you talk about the HARD GCD cap of 1 second which I can't for the life of me work out how you are dragging into discussion of rotation.

So we are discussing rotation and whether obliterate should or shouldn't be in correct?
Post #53 then provided some fancy maths telling me that you couldn't ever get howling blast to be better than obliterate.

Now lets get back to me so long as I have the runes to pull off the attack I want to use every 1.42 sec (which is my haste factor) then nothing in a rotation can add extra attacks in do you agree????

If I am able to attack at my GCD of 1.42 seconds (NOT the global GCD limit) I am not resource limited and therefore rime procs do nothing for me!!!!

And thats the rub in the same way as I have shown you weapon level makes massive differences to obliterate damage in lower gear our haste levels are so bad that rime actually does nothing because you are never out of runes.

Again this does not hold in better gear when your haste gets to a point you can actually use the resources provided by rime proc's.

I am not sure I can simplify it anymore ...

Can I say you are absolutely correct in high end gear in what you say ... with higher haste you would be able to get extra attacks based of rime ... it again is one of those things that is incorrect over the range of gear 264 and below.

killabee
11-23-2010, 10:41 AM
uglybbtoo,

Are you not a 2H Frost DK? 2H Frost DKs DPS in http://www.wowhead.com/spell=48265 to maximize our DPS, thus the 1 seconds GCD (please notice the "and reducing the global cooldown on your abilities by 0.5 sec" part). I wasn't talking about your Haste level at all. Are you disagreeing that 2H Frost should be using Unholy Presence too? :)



Post #53 then provided some fancy maths telling me that you couldn't ever get howling blast to be better than obliterate.



At the same time, the math is pretty easy and was provided by the poster of post #53 in this thread, which you ignored, because you didn't understand it.



Let X = Obliterate damage.
Let Y = HB damage

In order for HB to be better than Obliterate, Obliterate (and associated Rime) needs to be less than HB. In math:
X + 0.45Y < Y
Let's simplify!
100X + 45Y < 100Y
100X < 55Y
X < 0.55Y

In other words, Obliterate needs to be nearly half as weak as a single HB in order for HB to be higher priority. I've never seen such a situation. Weaker weapon damage is not enough to cause this as Obliterate is normalized.


Here, I highlighted the important parts for you. You're wrong again. This shows exactly the ration between the attacks at which it is worth start prioritizing HB over Oblit. No fancy math involved. "telling me that you couldn't ever get howling blast to be better than obliterate" part is the plot of your imagination.



Also,

I am not sure I can simplify it anymore ... Q.F.T!

uglybbtoo
11-23-2010, 04:53 PM
What does rime have to do with changing the GCD that is my only question? Rime simply makes your next attack rune free it doesn't release you from your current GCD lock that just triggered it. I keep asking what do you think rime is doing other than giving free runes?

EDIT:
http://www.tankspot.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by killabee http://www.tankspot.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?p=474467#post474467)
At the same time, the math is pretty easy and was provided by the poster of post #53 in this thread, which you ignored, because you didn't understand it.

This is completely true I simply do not undertsand how this is derived and no-one has given me an easy explanation. I am not ignoring but I simply can not fathom what this is trying to show.

I was going to do some fancy footwork and respec without rime etc and show you timing and dps but you are never going to accept anything I show you in a log from your comments above. I don't know how else to show you at low gear levels that rime does nothing I have a weight value of 0.0 associated to it but there is simply nowhere any better to put the points in a spec. Unless you can tell me what tests you would like me to do that you would accept this is going nowhere.


I think at this point I will just agree to disagree the original advice sticky I gave said to test both ways if you are right obliterate will always come up trumphs my tests and data disagrees. Lets leave it at that this is getting beyond worth the effort.

killabee
11-24-2010, 06:58 AM
I'll try to explain it again and it is going to be a long post, so please open your mind and try following. I want you to understand this.

First, lets go back to basics and redefine the terms:

a) Global Cooldown (GCD) - A time period during which it is impossible to use any ability. GCD is triggered by most of damaging abilities in WoW.
b) GCD lock - A condition when the available resources exceed the ability to spend those resources. This condition occurs due to existence of GCD.
c) Resource starvation - A condition when there are not enough resources to utilize every GCD.

Since we're specifically looking at a corner case where gear level is "below average", there are two basic assumptions we have to work with:

* You are not GCD locked.
* You are experiencing resource starvation.

Lets look at Rime. You're right, all Rime does is give you a 45% chance to have a rune-free HB after using Obliterate. Since we are under assumption that we are not GCD locked, Rime effectively gives us an attack in place where we didn't have resources to use any attack. This is correct, since you have a 15 second window to use it (even though, under our conditions you would, since potentially it does more DPS than either FS or Oblit with gear level "below average", this unless you are going to waste RP, refer to EJ priority). The "Obliterate damage + 45% HB damage" formula from post 53 is correct due to the above. The proc chance of 3/3 Rime is 45%, thus over time you will get a benefit of exactly 45% of HB damage. Knowing this, you can calculate exactly at what damage range HB should be prioritized over Obliterate.

Now, to answer you questions about tests you could do. As you noticed, as with any theory, there are assumptions we have to work with. If you could prove that either of the 2 assumptions used don't apply, then there will be a place for questioning the theory and adjusting the variables. To do that, you will have to do the following:

1) Define the gear threshold. Since your point was all the way about the EJ priority not being correct for low level gear, define what level of gear you test with.
2) Perform a test at least with the gear below the threshold defined above and show that either of the two assumptions is not correct. If you want your results to be credible, the sample size should be at least in thousands of attacks. All the tests you have done so far were not nearly long enough for statistical analysis.
3) The tests:
-In Frost Presence, Prioritize Obliterate
-In Frost Presence, Prioritize HB
-In Unholy Presence, Prioritize Obliterate
-In Unholy Presence, Prioritize HB

Good luck.

Felycitas
11-24-2010, 12:39 PM
1 frost rune: HOWLING BLAST!
1 unholy rune: ..plague strike..
1 frost rune and 1 unholy rune: Obliterate

A quick and dirty possible rotation that utilizes howling blast over obliterate: plague strike, howling blast, howling blast, plague strike -- 4 attacks

Obliterate over howling blast: obliterate, obliterate -- 2 attacks

By what I skimmed through in this thread.. the howling blast rotation will do slightly more damage because howling blast does slightly more than obliterate.. + 2 plague strike hits.

However...

If the obliterate rotation procs rime.. you just destroyed the howling blast rotation.

As it's been mentioned.. unless you're able to go without ANY wait on runes.. use obliterate. The only other situation the howling blast rotation might be more DPS is if rime never procs for a really long time.

Using howling blast more just leaves you with lingering unholy runes.

uglybbtoo
11-24-2010, 06:56 PM
Correct fely and correct killabee ... I will have a go at proving it to your statisfaction.

EDIT: Fely what you did leave out however is that if you end up blood striking because you are locked out of frost runes you may also create death runes via blood of the north (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=54637). Given the choice between blood and having to use plague you use blood everytime. It is also why you frost strike with Killing machine up when you run this mode because of runic empowerment (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=81229) and the damage difference between it and obliterate is not alot. The whole crux revolves around getting back your frost runes every 9 sec based upon our rune regen rate in unholy presence. Our attacks per second is so slow it's not hard but I will do some proofs for killa.

And under those situations rime has no actual effect which is why I get a stat weight of 0.0.

BTW soon as you get your haste up high enough killabee you are spot on in your original assessment this is sort of the weapon issue all over again.

What I thought you were angling at was that rime released the GCD (IE FREE and instant) which I actually thought initially it would when I first looked at rime and couldn't work out why I got no stat weight for it . On analysis of logs I can see that there will be no instant release spells in WOW anymore and its all to do with the key queue they put in.

what you get is

0:01'46.517 Ubbdk gains Freezing Fog. #1577 < you gain rime >
0:01'50.183 Ubbdk Freezing Fog was removed from Ubbdk. #1601 < it queues the key and removes the effect >
0:01'50.932 Ubbdk Howling Blast hits Heroic Training Dummy for 5511 Frost. #1605 < the hit goes out >

Every spell I have looked at does the same thing with the queue in effect there is no real way to get an instant attack off a proc which is a big change to how things work an I began to understand how significant some of the changes are.

Felycitas
11-25-2010, 03:54 AM
Given the choice between blood and having to use plague you use blood everytime.Yeah. What I'm saying is that there's not that many options for using those unholy runes so you're not losing out by feeding them into an obliterate. Otherwise.. they really just sit there unused in the howling blast rotation.

ROTATION 1: Howling blast (10k), howling blast, howling blast, howling blast = 40k damage

ROTATION 2: Obliterate (8k), obliterate, obliterate = 24k damage (+10, +10, +10)

Adding death runes.. yeah.. howling blast looks more attractive. Unless you get exceptionally lucky and proc rime twice.

uglybbtoo
11-25-2010, 07:09 PM
Yep you got the nail on the head and thanks for help ..

I went to prove that you never run out of runes but it's self evident because we only attack at 1.5s in the 9 sec before you get the rune back you only have 6 attacks in that 9 sec window. So assume our disease are running so we are looking mid rotations stuff we have 6 runes and if nothing proc'ed and we had no death runes those attacks would be in priority

Howling blast, Howling blast, Blood strike, blood strike, plague strike, plague strike

Any proc or death rune drops each attack from the end slotting an extra howling blast or frost strike if killing machine is up at the top.
And this confirms what I said you never run out of rune resources using this setup (I actually had never got down to using horn of winter and it wasn't even in my first go at advisory)

I do however see how the other rotation works and have been playing with it now my obliterate is actually higher than my howling blast :-)

I would say rotation 1 as you called it works better at low gear levels but rotation 2 wins out in high level gear.

raedin
11-29-2010, 04:49 PM
yea, unholy is a bit more ocmplicated but when u get good at it, u do good. i actualy ahvent tested it in a raid yet tho lol.. found out how good frost got after the patch