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Durahide
10-14-2010, 06:27 PM
Ok, so, I feel completely embarressed. I have been playing my Warrior since the begining finding that even tho i've played every class, warrior had been the ONLY class that seems to give me any enjoyment. I played as both Prot and fury the whole time other then for a lil as arms back in BC. An with that I am a lil embarrassed to say for the first time I am at a complete loss. Pre 4.0.1 I have always been at the top of my game. Raiding all endgame content as it released. Mainly as prot as it is by far the thing im best at and enjoy the most. But since this patch I have lost my passion and cant seem to get the tanking down with the changes. I have specced and reforged to work with mastery and have even tryed pretty much all rotations i can think of and for some reason i cant get it down. it just doesnt seem fluid anymore and my threat is gone. single target threat on boss fights seems to be perfect. but something as simple as 5mans destroy me. Ive tryed tab targeting stuns vig/taunt but with everything ive tryed, dps still peels anything thats not a boss.

So what im asking is for rotations and any advice people got for me. Are warriors only going to viable boss tanks again with no place for Aoe at all?

Here an armory link, doesnt seem to show that which i reforged. Hopefully it will update!
currently have 17.37(430) mastery bringing my block to 41.71 and 21% crit block
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Durahide

ironsides
10-14-2010, 07:22 PM
=(

I feel a little bad bro, I see where you are coming from.

Firstly something is wrong, a change or something is messing up rotations if you spam. It's like a queue or just plain server lag, but it caused abilities you spam to override abilities you use last second like shield slam on a sword and board proc. It makes everything seem less fluid and in my case incredibly frustrating. In this respect we need to just relax, spam a little less devestate and use our abilities carefully despite our urge to hit buttons like a mad man for max threat. Hopefully they will fix this soon.

In terms of aoe threat, I see where you are coming from and yes simple 5 mans will be a little tricky, luckily most ppl outgear them so it doesn't matter a whole lot. Our aoe threat was indeed nerfed, t clap does much less damage and it is all in the intention that in cata we wont be pulling large packs of mobs and aoeing them down. They want single target and strategy, while you may feel lost now in cata I assure you, you will do perfectly fine. Now for current dungeons I would suggest setting a skull mark to a hotkey that way you can quickly mark a skull as soon as you pull, shield slam that target, use your shockwave and t clap and make sure revenge is always used right away. Personally I would drop gag order for thunderstruck, even though you wont be spamming thunderclap in raids it will still give you a 10% shockwave damage increase and in dungeons, which you are having trouble in, rougly 30% shockwave damage and more t clap damage.

Do not feel bad that you can't make everything stick to you, just do these simple things, be ready to taunt anything that gets pulled off you and when you identify who is pulling the most vig him for instant taunts. If you mark a skull you will probably hold aggro however since it shouldn't really be aoe that pulls off you but instead split dps it should help a ton and it will literally only take a half a sec if you hotkey it to something (mine is set to ~).

I would make enchant and gem suggestions but none of them will help threat, I don't even use armsman atm however after 4.0.1 im not sure how much an armor kit is better survivability wise. I would remove the hit gem from the ring, you can always use hit food if needed. It's being suggested to use hodir shoulder enchant again thanks to def = stam on it. cloak enchant should probably be armor but again idk if anything changed with 4.0.1.

All that is beside the point however, don't be discouraged. They did make us better raid boss tanks and worse at aoe/dungeons, but in all likelihood we will receive some changes soon and/or the instances will change to be in our favor. I am sure it's not you but the situation, this is evident merely from your effort to fix it and embarrassment, which I assure you is fully unjustified.

Vass
10-14-2010, 08:42 PM
Might I suggest dropping "blood craze" for now or atleast until 85, if your healer can't do his Job it's not your fault. Filling in "Blood and Thunder" in the first Tier of the Prot Tree for extra AoE Threat and "Thunder Struck" maybe dropping a point from "Shield Specialization" if you don't have the rage issue.

Mäcintosh
10-14-2010, 08:52 PM
I too feel a bit of your pain. It seems our spec and rotations aren't bad, just the queue system has us fubar.

I've found, through the heroic dungeons, I can use the same rotation and I don't seem to have a problem holding 3-4 mobs. I have always tab targeted so the changes are not hurting me that much but they do cause grief once in a while.

See, it appears to me that SS and Revenge are now tied to the mob you target, and if you queue them up on that target, then tab to a different target before it goes off, it doesn't go off until you retarget your original target. That just screws your flow all up. This is what I feared I wouldn't like about the queue system. This is for single target only. Then the queue issue is not a problem. You can AOE the rest with TC and shockwave to keep them on you as long as DPS focus fires one target at a time, which they don't.

I don't know if blizzard really intends for this to stay this way or not but this seems to me, means having to relearn how to play. I know I don't like it one bit though. I shouldn't have to deal with this because of one jerk who exploited the game. If they cancel the rev or SS if you target something else, that might make this workable. It hasn't been too much of a problem, yet, but it has been frustrating to deal with.


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ironsides
10-14-2010, 09:09 PM
Might I suggest dropping "blood craze" for now or atleast until 85, if your healer can't do his Job it's not your fault. Filling in "Blood and Thunder" in the first Tier of the Prot Tree for extra AoE Threat and "Thunder Struck" maybe dropping a point from "Shield Specialization" if you don't have the rage issue.

To each his own but I feel blood and thunder wont make that much of a difference. If you aren't holding aoe threat now that little bit of rend damage isn't going to do much, rend wont do anything against split dps.

HOWEVER.. and I didn't mention this before because I was just practicing using it before. Tidyplates/threatplates is pretty damn awesome. It makes all the health bars of things you aren't tanking red/yellow depending on threat and then green if it's attack you. It makes it really easy to aoe tank, even if ppl do pull aggro you should be able to swap targets and smack it to get it back fast enough to prevent any harm being done. It's pretty cool, really helpful, and especially for dungeons recommended by me. Download Tidyplates from curse, then download the tidyplate-threatplates theme. Do it, try it, let me know if it helps =P.

Lepka
10-14-2010, 11:04 PM
TauntMaster is probably a better alternative to Threat plates. It work a lot like VuhDo for healers. Basically it provides everyones name in the raid, and when they pull aggro the color of their name changes. And all you need to at that point is click it... and it auto taunts the enemy targeting them. You can even shift click and it will use challenging shout. I've been using it... and I love it.

Mäcintosh
10-14-2010, 11:07 PM
. Tidyplates/threatplates is pretty damn awesome. It makes all the health bars of things you aren't tanking red/yellow depending on threat and then green if it's attack you. It makes it really easy to aoe tank, even if ppl do pull aggro you should be able to swap targets and smack it to get it back fast enough to prevent any harm being done. It's pretty cool, really helpful, and especially for dungeons recommended by me. Download Tidyplates from curse, then download the tidyplate-threatplates theme. Do it, try it, let me know if it helps =P.

/agree
However, the version right now is buggy with boatloads of mobs the nameplates make a mess of screen and jump all over the place and sometimes do not even show up. Not as solid as 3.3.5's version. But it is a major help.




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ironsides
10-15-2010, 11:39 AM
Supposedly there is some kind of command that you can enter to stop the plates from jumping all over, I can ask my GM for it if needed, I haven't had issues with it yet so I don't know it.

Bashal
10-15-2010, 12:06 PM
The main reason why any tank in a 5-man is having threat issues is because damage isn't high enough to stack vengeance much. In a raid environment, or (I imagine) in the new cata dungeons, you'll be hit harder, stack vengeance higher, and do a lot more threat. For now, if DPS don't want to pull off you in 5's, they'll have to assist off you and burn down whatever target is your primary focus.

o0Larome0o
10-15-2010, 12:14 PM
I actually use Tauntmaster myself and it is fantastic!! As much as beakers love Healbot and the like, tauntmaster is what did it for me! It let's you split your concentration for other things...you should look into.

Ralekk
10-15-2010, 12:49 PM
I actually use Tauntmaster myself and it is fantastic!! As much as beakers love Healbot and the like, tauntmaster is what did it for me! It let's you split your concentration for other things...you should look into.

Okay,to the OP,there's not much you can do about this m8,dps is so high right now I don't even bother trying to taunt off ppl who wont attack my target,if dps wanna be douches,let them...in cata all will be good.

As far as tauntmaster goes,I highly reccomend NOT using it.It teaches bad tanking,simply put.For it to work the overaggroed mob has to be targeted by the person who over aggroed or it WILL NOT WORK.If you start relying on tauntmaster you're setting yourself and group up for a possible death/wipe depending on the group.The only thing that tauntmaster IS useful for is the raid taunt warnings which are hadny in raids.Apart from that..not worth using,trust me.What I do reccomend,however,is tidy plates/threat plates.as it forces you to target the over aggroed mob yourself and taunt it yourself,leaving little room for error and this will make you a much better tank and quicken your changing target and taunting reactions.Hope I cleared this up for you somewhat.

Agnum
10-15-2010, 01:13 PM
Okay,to the OP,there's not much you can do about this m8,dps is so high right now I don't even bother trying to taunt off ppl who wont attack my target,if dps wanna be douches,let them...in cata all will be good.

This and this again

I have always played a Mage as a main and am switching over to a Prot Warrior. I hit 80 about a month ago and am still getting geared on my Tank. My Mage is at about a 5.6 or 5.7 GS. I haven't done much with either character over the last couple of days since the patch. This morning was my first kill since the patch on my mage. I killed a mammoth for the Bloodied fishing daily. My frostbolt was casting at 1.08 seconds. Pew pew. I didn't realize it was that fast but if I start landing crits with that, there is no tank in the world going to keep up with that threat over any kind of 40 second or more fight. The only way my mage will survive is to assist the MT. There are a lot of dumbasses out there that don't understand that. People don't remember how to actually play in a group anymore. They have been trained in the AOE fests that was WOTLK until the most recent patch. I trained in the original EQ where if you didn't have an /assist hotkey, you died instantly, especially as an enchanter.

So you have no need to feel embarassed, those who don't know how to assist should be embarassed. They will learn after enough deaths that you need to operate as a team to be successful. This definitely isn't the old WOTLK and I applaud that. So don't stress over it, they will die early and often and it's not your fault.

Kurtosis
10-15-2010, 09:22 PM
Spam a macro at the start of a pug:

"DPS vs tank threat is broken, Bliz is working on it, won't be fixed till 4.0.3. Till then please /assist your tank. Set me to focus, then use a macro: /assist [@focus]. Muchos gracias."

Something like that. Will get some laughs and sneers, but when they pull aggro and then bitch about it, just respam the macro. They'll get it eventually.

SeptimX
10-19-2010, 07:48 PM
Tank motto: You Pull it, You Tank it! maybe spam this on heroics =) or You'd better give me may 5 sec headstart...

especially good advice for clothie tank wannabe....

basically there's nothing to be embarrassed about, as all tanks seem to be having the same problem...
especially now that game mechanics are like BC age, when CC and Dps restraint are practiced. (my vanilla, BC friends tell me so...)

Delicatesse
10-20-2010, 02:12 AM
Tank in dps gear. That will fix it.

Maèl
10-20-2010, 03:37 AM
Pull slowly and carefully. One group at a time. If you have 50% of the trash tanked and the other 50% are not clobbering on one DPS your healers will be able to cope. If half of the mobs clobber one DPS then he overdid it with AE. As a warrior, shockwave stun usually is enough to buy the DPS or the healers a breather.

Glyph of Shockwave and Glyph of Cleave are your friends here. Don't bother with Rend because this won't glue mobs to you beyond healing aggro. You don't have that GCD right after the pull and it is futile when you can spare one.

Also, Intervene has become awesome. All they did was remove the minimum range.

Holding aggro on all mobs isn't a tank's only tools and the toolkit of a warrior is very impressive.

PatrikL
10-20-2010, 03:43 AM
I got a warrior tank last night in HoL (I was dpsing) who could hold threat most of the time. The only thing I waited for on each pull was to see his shockwave hit before I started since my starting ability even on single targets is a AoE (HB). Think his gear was tad bit worse than mine so was ok with him losing some things to me as long as it wasnt bosses.

Grannos
10-20-2010, 05:43 AM
As it has been said a few times now in this thread, don't taunt of dumb ass DPS. I am DPS, and I get onto other DPS who just dont get the fact that tank threat is not what it used to be. As a tank, your job is to be a brick wall, but your should not be the savior of retarded DPS'rs who only look at recount. I still see mages casting blizzard, locks with there seed of aggro, and now shaman with earthquake, ALL, casting before most tank even get there first ability off. Its not your fault at that point if one of them gets aggro and dies.

Hang in there. You have to rememebr that these changes are designed with cata in mind, and WOTLK is just not set up for most of the changes we have seen since 4.0 went live. It will get better...

MellvarTank
10-20-2010, 08:20 AM
Cata mechanics are supposed to bring back CC. The specs are all based around this.... so if everyone just AoE's in dungeons, guess what?

Pay attention to your multi-target abilities, ask for a second to get aggro, let DPS die if they refuse to cooperate. Same thing tanks have had to do all expansion.

Dragaan
10-20-2010, 09:04 AM
I believe one of, if not the, most important thing when it comes to threat issues is learning to tweak your gear. The rotation is simple enough. If you really have tried every possible rotation/prioritysystem/etc, then maybe you should put a little more thought into gear. I'm more anal than almost anyone I've ever played with when it comes to gear and min/maxing, and it's definitely worked to my advantage. When you start a run, look who you're with. Inspect them. If it's an overgeared group, toss some dps gear. If they're severely overgeared (inc healer), put on ALL dps gear (except for the weapon/shield, of course). Know what lv mobs you will be tanking and adjust your hit/expertise appropriately. Swap glyphs if need be.

With 4.0 came 1 critical change to warrior threat - We no longer have the bursty and sustained threat of thunderclap to just glue things to us. You will HAVE to tab target on pulls with more than 3 mobs, and probably on pulls with more than 2 as well. Learn when to leave a mob that's being killed and start building aggro on other targets (so that it dies before anyone gets killed from aggro). Learn to stun a target, smack the other targets, then come back and taunt the initial target before the stun wears off. When cata comes out, cc will probably be used a lot in 5mans (at least for the first tier or so) and in raids, but for right now there is no need. The BEST way to learn to be an effective tank is by being tossed in the deep end and tanking for players or groups who make your job very hard. At least this is my personal opinion. Just make sure you're doing everything possible to remedy your aggro problems, and keep at it. All this game takes is practice.

Reev
10-20-2010, 09:17 AM
I believe one of, if not the, most important thing when it comes to threat issues is learning to tweak your gear. The rotation is simple enough. If you really have tried every possible rotation/prioritysystem/etc, then maybe you should put a little more thought into gear. I'm more anal than almost anyone I've ever played with when it comes to gear and min/maxing, and it's definitely worked to my advantage. When you start a run, look who you're with. Inspect them. If it's an overgeared group, toss some dps gear. If they're severely overgeared (inc healer), put on ALL dps gear (except for the weapon/shield, of course). Know what lv mobs you will be tanking and adjust your hit/expertise appropriately. Swap glyphs if need be.

With 4.0 came 1 critical change to warrior threat - We no longer have the bursty and sustained threat of thunderclap to just glue things to us. You will HAVE to tab target on pulls with more than 3 mobs, and probably on pulls with more than 2 as well. Learn when to leave a mob that's being killed and start building aggro on other targets (so that it dies before anyone gets killed from aggro). Learn to stun a target, smack the other targets, then come back and taunt the initial target before the stun wears off. When cata comes out, cc will probably be used a lot in 5mans (at least for the first tier or so) and in raids, but for right now there is no need. The BEST way to learn to be an effective tank is by being tossed in the deep end and tanking for players or groups who make your job very hard. At least this is my personal opinion. Just make sure you're doing everything possible to remedy your aggro problems, and keep at it. All this game takes is practice.

I really disagree with the gear min-maxxing. I think right now I have 5% hit and 18 expertise. While I should probably close those up a bit, I'm not having trouble holding aggro. I think ability usage is and organization of pulls is far more important than gearing.

SeptimX
10-25-2010, 01:43 AM
The BEST way to learn to be an effective tank is by being tossed in the deep end and tanking for players or groups who make your job very hard. At least this is my personal opinion. Just make sure you're doing everything possible to remedy your aggro problems, and keep at it. All this game takes is practice.

HoR really becomes Horrible... Practice is good advice... practice as tank, and practice for dps to hold back... even 3 secs till you get off that thunderclap is all that i usually ask of them...

vigilance on highest dps agro stealer, instant taunt refreshed when he gets hit, also good tool...

since most dps have been buffed up, with trash fights in heroics not lasting more than 10secs, kinda hard to practice...
now with icc trash mobs, this becomes good practice for both tanks and dps, for dps to hold back a little as the tanks establish agro lead...

but play it safe on 25man, do 3 tanks for trash mobs, easiest on everybody...

Maèl
10-25-2010, 03:02 AM
This weekend I drank the cool aid and entered the nightmare world that is WoW Honor Farming *shudder*

What it got me was a nice slow one hander with a boatload of stam and a blue socket. I had to reforge it a bit to no great effect but still: one of the best tanking weapons in the game atm if you are worried about threat.

If you are worried about HoR: don't
In a pug you can assume this is going to be ugly. For instance I'm making it a point NEVER to tank the ranged dwarf mobs if there is some sort of viable CC in the group. They are easily CCable and you have to cope with THE nastiest trash in the whole game(even worse than Bloodwing trash).
If you are doing one of the old olololroflstomp heroics then here is a bit of advice. One trash pull at a time. Plan your pulls. Do you remember those packs in HoS right before the Maid of "not as bad as her trash"? I pull them around the corner into the cave. Even although my warrior is fully equipped in 264 stuff.
Same goes for the room of death right before Loken.
Same goes for spider trash right at the start of OK(the casters do damage based on your HP so a couple of them WILL kill ya).

One planned pull at a time. If DPS pulls just make sure you stay out of combat.

Even although I take it slow and propably add 2-5 minutes to the run I repeatedly get commended for my tanking. No risk involved and smooth sailing which should make anybody happy. Rush if you feel safe to, pull carefully if you don't Don't let the group set the pace or you are paste.

And even if it doesn't work out: even one HoR trash won't kill a DPS as long as the healer is free to do his thing. If I screw up I also have mobs all over the place. Don't have to hold them all at all of the time.

Tidy Plates/Threat Plates and set the name plates of non-elite mobs to as small as possible. That's what I do.

SeptimX
11-05-2010, 11:50 PM
One planned pull at a time. If DPS pulls just make sure you stay out of combat.

agreed on part one, rofl on part two... and only if the mob is easily disposed off that i let the dps handle it... else i'll be right in the middle tclap, conc blow, shockwave when i have them available, less they blame me failed tank....