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kokuou13
10-13-2010, 09:06 PM
Is anyone else having trouble holding threat now in 4.0.1? I ran a H HoR with some guildies this evening and was having some serious threat control problems even on single target mobs such as the Skele Warr in the hallway. Actually had a friend on his ele shammy pull the mob off me. Any advice or help would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Tonk
10-13-2010, 09:08 PM
Just ask DPS to wait for shockwave before opening up. Worked for me :)

Bowen
10-13-2010, 10:13 PM
Anyone who opens up before you get a chance to touch the mobs with a decent threat move with the changes made now, deserve to have a hefty repair bill.

Fgump
10-14-2010, 05:55 AM
I've resolved to just take a seat and watch when the DPS doesn't wait a potato..... They have to learn some day.

Reev
10-14-2010, 06:20 AM
Not really having issues. If DPS are pulling off of you, either they're being stupid, or you're doing something strange.

What works for me: Have Battle Shout up. Mark at least 2 targets with the skull and X. More if you want to CC, but it's not really necessary in most heroics at the moment. Charge, Thunderclap, Shockwave, Cleave during the whole thing, Revenge, shield slam, and leave devastate for the lowest priority. Thunderclap whenever up, Shockwave again when it's available. While there are multiple mobs up, Revenge will help you hold on to more than Shield Slam, it seems. With that, I've been holding against AoE hungry dps. If you can't hold against the AoE dps, either your AP isn't high enough, you aren't executing well enough, or the dps is starting way way too early. If the dps is pulling with AoE, tell them to chill out and follow the kill order. If you're concentrating mostly on Skull and X, and the dps is too, you shouldn't have a problem.

Ghoat
10-14-2010, 06:51 AM
Anyone working an early rend into that rotation? So Charge,rend,TC,SW,cleave?

ironsides
10-14-2010, 07:06 AM
I don't see the point, rend adds very little extra threat, I would just skip it and not get blood and thunder. I did an H HoR right after patch and it wasn't an issue with pugs.. however if you have really good dps(by good i mean hi end damage) then you might have issues if they don't play carefully. We are not really being meant to aoe tank anymore, it is easy to hold threat off most pugs but with a really well geared ele sham you could have issues. Still if played carefully it should not be an issue, btw vengeance is really awesome for threat, however we don't really take enough damage in dungeons for it to do much. So out gearing an instance can still be an issue despite normalized rage.. The less damage we take the less ap we get while the better gear dps have the more damage they do. Luckily in a raid situation you should have no issue as my 47k shield slams can attest to.

Edit: in terms of single target it shouldn't be that big an issue if it's a boss vengeance will stack, if it's not vig the highest dps and the mob will be dead before taunt is on dr, if the dps is really doing that much damage.

kokuou13
10-14-2010, 07:36 AM
thanks a ton guys for the info. I was doing the usual charge, TC, ShW, Cleave on multi's; and I did try the rend/TC on second TC. I did hit the shammy with Vig at the beginning of the instance. It was really frustrating for me since I have never had a threat problem before now. I do approx 2200 DPS as a prot warrior in 5 mans with the minimal buffs. My guild was raiding ICC 10 in earlier months, but we're currently on hiatus til cata with exception of occasional weekly, and I never had a problem in ICC with threat. Just wanting to see if anyone else is having any problems. It's probably just me... guess I'll need to get some more practice in...lol. Thanks again for the help folks!

ironsides
10-14-2010, 07:47 AM
It's not just you, the ability queue makes it impossible to play at top game, if I spam my abilities devestate overrides shield slams, the whole thing is pissing me off and it prevents me from maximizing my threat/damage.

Ship
10-14-2010, 07:55 AM
Also having great problems with aggro. The whole play style has changed. And I don't like it.
Understand pala tanks now have so extremely easy to hold aggro.... Not fair

MellvarTank
10-14-2010, 08:04 AM
For one: Vig won't help you now.

For two: With the new ability cue: Do not spam keys. That is what screws up the rotation. I've run a few heroics, it's much easier to hold threat when you don't mash keys.

uglybbtoo
10-14-2010, 09:53 AM
TBH its not as bad as when we first started out what caught me out what fire mages and shadow priests which really are untankable if they are geared and it depends if they know what they are doing. Top that off with the bug where alot of normal ICC bosses were taunt immune like in heroic and we were wondering what the hell .. they fixed that in the 15min restart they did a few hours later.

Been on a Vengeance battlegroup server and there is no trouble tanking on there and infact I had very few fire mages and only a few bad shadows still using mind sear. Go over to bloodlust group which has black rock, khaz and all the big boys totally different bloody nightmare every 2nd or 3rd group has a fire mage or shadow who knows what they are doing. Someone either did alot of work on ptr of figured it out and its spread like wildfire .. I know I got told from a friend what to do for my shadow priest.

Thats really the only big big problem tanking and the nerf bat is going to be swung at those 2 classes soon and there is not much you can do as a tank they are both essentially pulling 15K+ threat on the main target and 9k+ threat on each and every off target to rack up the numbers they are good luck trying to tank that.

Edit: I am not real keen to get the problem wider till its fixed I am not sure what the fire mages do but for shadows it's a creative use of macro's and the new queue system .. its bad enuf when they do it manually it's horrid when its semi automated.

Jellysound
10-14-2010, 11:11 AM
With the new ability cue: Do not spam keys. That is what screws up the rotation. I've run a few heroics, it's much easier to hold threat when you don't mash keys.

I'm not sure what the mean by "normalized rage" but its different. You used to be able to smash your face on the keyboard and tank no problem now you don't have bloodrage and charge doesnt generate rage (unless you specced into it, but i went for self healing)

Currently to get rage at the beginning of a fight you have to use a shout (gives total a little less than Bloodrage) and I use the glph of Berserker rage which gives you a little when you use it.

It's not reasonable to spec into deep wounds anymore imo, and I usually run with a rogue (they love thier bleed effects to already be down)

Rage generation can become a problem, I macro Charge with Commanding shout and Berserker rage, and have 25rage

Rend costs 10 and Tclap costs 20, generally you can generate 5 rage during the first 1/2 of a fight to tclap and use blood and thunder.

The problem I'm having is that DPS aren't used to the change, and they just need to wait a little more time before starting DPS otherwise they will pull and there is nothing you can do about it

ironsides
10-14-2010, 07:35 PM
For one: Vig won't help you now.

For two: With the new ability cue: Do not spam keys. That is what screws up the rotation. I've run a few heroics, it's much easier to hold threat when you don't mash keys.

I know vig doesn't reduce their threat, however if they pull and it smacks them you can instantly taunt the mob back so theres no reason not to vig that person, any aoe damage they take will give you a bit of AP as well, I see no reason not to do it.

As for mashing keys, of course I know that it's alot better if you take your time, however you basically can not do maximum threat anymore because of this, being unable to spam the ability we want to use makes us activate abilities just a little slow, and that little bit adds up over a fight. It's frustrating and it makes tanking less fluid and in my opinion a more bursty feel, which is incredibly annoying for me.

And trust me Jelly, dps will learn, oh they will learn or pay the repair bills just give em time to catch on.

kokuou13
10-15-2010, 02:39 PM
It looks more and more like things are going back to the vanilla wow system, ie "you break it you tank it". I feel a bit bad letting my dps die because they pulled aggro, but I am really getting tired of having to run all over the place to grab mobs that they pulled just because they refuse to wait a couple of seconds for me to generate sufficient threat.

I think I'll start implementing a system a friend of mine from my old guild used to use to determine if i taunt the mob or not. The tanks name was Vladimir and used to have what he called ARP (Aggro Retreival Points). everyone started out with a certain amount of points, say 5 for instance, if a dps pulled hate because of their own impatience Vlad would deduct ARP from them. When they hit 0 ARP he would no longer taunt the mob back off of them and would let it kill them before taunting. I have some pretty fond memories of Vlad saying over vent in BWL to someone "so & so, you just lost ARP... pull hate again and I'm letting you die". Of course everyone would get a good laugh out of it but that person DID learn to watch what they were doing.

Grousey
10-16-2010, 02:29 PM
Kokou, sounds liek a good system especially in raids.. pity that usually in random heroics the high dps guys tend to take the mob down before it even touches them (md pulling hunters, DIE DIE DIE) but if dps go to soon and pull aggro, especially if it's single mob my finger instantly reaches for X to have a bit of a sit down. if they kill it, progression for nothing.. if not then they probably die, fun stuff.


Rage generation can become a problem, I macro Charge with Commanding shout and Berserker rage, and have 25rage

Rend costs 10 and Tclap costs 20, generally you can generate 5 rage during the first 1/2 of a fight to tclap and use blood and thunder.

i have the same macro though i'm using battle shout atm, more threat unless there's a dk in group, what's bit more health gonna do in a heroic?

don't forget berserker rage also generates more rage as you get hit for 10 seconds making shockwave for us lower geared warr tanks a bit of a hindrance and yet kind of necessary. just HUMPH!

kokuou13
10-18-2010, 10:30 AM
I seem to have gotten kinks worked out. Our guild did the weekly last night, which was Razorscale, and I had minimal issues with threat and actually none on Razorscale himself. Unfortunately my OT, a Prot Pally, was having some serious problems.

I did find that hitting BS/CS, Bers Rage, and charge prior to aggro helped with the initial rage build. I also macro'd TC/Cleave together and follow that up immediately with Shock Wave, and it seems to have helped immensly for multi mob tanking. I did spec for Blood and Thunder but I still don't know how much it's helping. I don't know the math for figuring out how much each ability generates in threat. If someone does or knows where I can find out how to figure it out ir would be much appreciated. Thanks all!

Reev
10-18-2010, 10:34 AM
Blood and Thunder probably isn't particularly useful. Make sure that you aren't only using Cleave when you thunderclap, because it's usable much more often, and is worth a fairly good amount of threat, especially when glyphed.

Ludy
10-18-2010, 10:34 AM
Honestly, put on more dps pieces. Not like you need to worry about being crit. When running heroics I find myself pretty much in dps gear.

Aggathon
10-18-2010, 11:13 PM
get a slow weapon with high top end damage.

uglybbtoo
10-19-2010, 12:40 AM
Def as agg says the theorycraft is in and it works as all of us are reporting.

Worse case run H-FOS and get nighttime it is much better than any tanking weapon you will find.

kokuou13
10-19-2010, 08:32 AM
get a slow weapon with high top end damage.

My only concern with this is rage building. Is a slow 1h better for us now than it used to be? Have you tested this? It seems plausable to me to use one. The high end dmg would create bigger hits and therefore generate more threat on hit, but does it actually cause your TPS to go up?

I will run H ICC 5's tonight and see if I can pick up something like Nighttime as uglyb suggested.

Reev
10-19-2010, 08:34 AM
My only concern with this is rage building. Is a slow 1h better for us now than it used to be? Have you tested this? It seems plausable to me to use one. The high end dmg would create bigger hits and therefore generate more threat on hit, but does it actually cause your TPS to go up?

Yes, rage is normalized such that you'll receive the same amount whether you're using a slow or fast weapon (though the rage income will be smoother with the fast weapon), but you'll do more damage with Devastate, and correct me if I'm wrong here, Cleave, and HS.

Griff
10-19-2010, 09:25 AM
I haven't really felt a lot of issues with threat either. It feels a little dicier on multi-mob pulls when dps starts to aoe early and I find I need to work to keep a threat lead where before I could /afk 20 seconds into a single target pull but generally, its not bad.

I did run icc last weekend with a fury warrior who outgeared me and insisted on doing max dps instantly, as soon as the pull started. I had gently cautioned him in whispers to moderate his initial threat to no avail. He pulled Saurfang off of me at the start of the encounter and I let him die with my finger resting on the unused taunt keybind. I told him as much after and he /quit the raid. Oh well.

Agnum
10-19-2010, 09:49 AM
The Nighttime is a good idea, what enchant do you guys recommend for it if I can pick it up tonight? It seems we are going away from defensive stuff and more offensive for the threat. I was wanting Rimefang's claw, but this sounds like a better idea. I was thinking beserking, but it reduces AC too and I don't like that trade off. Now I am thinking Mongoose, but thought I should check here first.

kokuou13
10-22-2010, 05:58 AM
So I went and picked up Nighttime the other day. So far it seems to have worked. I am still working with it but my TPS seems to stay above 8-10k now in Heroics and AOE tanking has gotten easier. I still want to get some more testing in but it defiantely seems to be doing the job. The rage gain is a bit more clunky and not as smooth as it was with Rimefangs Claw but im starting to get used to it.

@Agnum: I was using Rimefangs Claw up until 4.0.1, and I don't know what the rest of these folks have found to be the best enchant, but I still used Bladeward on it.

Prucilak
10-22-2010, 09:51 AM
Ive only had threat issues at the beginning of the pull. Like the first 5 seconds. I moved some of my avoidance to hit/expertise to I hit more often. Also you could try Shield Block then Shield Slam. If it crits, you should have a decent lead on threat.

I also go alot slower in my rotation to not be rage starved. Ive also noticed doing this seemed to make my threat pretty decent. Ill pull 15-35k TPS depending on crit strings.

Crashlander
10-22-2010, 10:52 PM
My first v4 spec, I saw the B&T and said rend, WTF?! Needless to say I didn't spec it. I spent the next 5 days struggling with my old methods trying to hold aggro. Then I said, WTF. To make rend so prominent, Blizz must have tweaked my threat as drastically as they tweaked my rage.

So I respecc'd 2 points B&T, started every fight with a charge, rend, TC combo. I haven't had many problems holding mobs since.

I know, I know, the rend description doesn't say squat except that it makes the target bleed. It doesn't even mention threat.

When my target has rend, all the mobs hit by my TC start bleeding too. It really pisses 'em off.

Please try it yourself before explaining how lame rend is.

charge rend TC FTW

Exiledknight
10-23-2010, 02:08 PM
One thing that everyone seems to be ignoring is expertise, what is it sitting at? Hit is not as important but is important none the less. I was tanking all off H ICC with 13 expertise and 160 hit until 4.0.1 now im running 243 hit and 30 expertise(with food buff and glyph) and have zero threat issues(other than the wandering ghouls in p1 of H LK) and this includes tanking the 3rd and 4th ragings in the 2nd transition where bloodlust has been popped and dps is going all out switching to the 3rd spirit the second it stops moving.

Vegemite
10-24-2010, 12:38 PM
Am I the only one that finds threat easier in this patch? Aoe feels about the same, and only requires a tiny bit more work to do then post patch. Single target threat is stupid easy if you have a md or tricks for the pull if not it's only a little stressful on initial threat but then it just becomes a joke when vengeance kicks in. 5mans are easier then before now that we actually get rage. Other then the initial shock this patch has been a good one.

uglybbtoo
10-24-2010, 10:40 PM
ICC boss tanking got easier but ICC trash and heroics were definitely harder if you have specific classses fire mages, shadows with VE on, Dk's and fury warriors are the main problems.

Ship
10-25-2010, 01:02 AM
I think Blizz corrected the threat issue some what. The first 2 days after patch I couldnt do any threat at all, but now its no problem. I believe Blizz made an error and corrected it with the emergency patches.

Btw, there has been a lot of emergency patches after 4.01. Guess we are playing a trial game up until Cata. Hope all will be solved by then.