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Kazeyonoma
10-13-2010, 03:19 PM
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LhbcfRMRurkzbZ0b:RMcsRV0kz

is kind of a pseudo build i'm running with, i'd easily take out points from blood and thunder if i know i'm not going to do any AoE at all that matters, and put it instead into incite or Battle Trance.

I'm infuriated by Sudden Death being 80% useless to us until we can ding 81 (2 months away), but there's not much else to pick up talents from.

I'm planning on gemming for hit cap/expertise cap, then all str, and reforging all of my other stats to mastery for double proc yumminess. What does everyone else think, and i'm guessing based on what I can tell.

priority will be: Rend -> Mortal Strike -> Overpower -> Slam, and in execute range, replace slam with execute. Bladestorm on CD maybe?

Vossin
10-13-2010, 03:45 PM
Had a tough time taking down Chillmaw today, usually I solo him pretty easy but the last cultist took me down, it seems a bit weak. I am bummed about sudden death too and that may have something to do with it. If we hit the exper cap won't that reduce the overpower procs? Thanks again for the arms luv!

Kazeyonoma
10-13-2010, 03:54 PM
last I read from EJ, they said that missing/dodging an attack in order to get another overpower proc, is a net loss in dps because you're losing a GCD worth of damage each time this happens, and if it happens on a Mortal Strike, you probably 100% are trading a higher damage attack for a lower damage attack, the only time it benefits is if you get an overpower proc from an hs, a slam, or a white hit. MS or executes will probably cause losses in dps.

Vossin
10-13-2010, 03:59 PM
Sounds like its re-gem/reforge time again ..rassa frassin...15 arp gems down the drain once today as it is.

Bohelric
10-13-2010, 04:06 PM
I have to say I'm pretty concerned with Arms DPS also. My DPS was cut in half, after three respecs and re-gems. The best combo I found was to get hit capped, expertise capped, then I reforged some crit strike for mastery. Not saying its ideal, but seems to be the best combo I found so far. I'm just not sure how much crit strike to remove to replace with strength next...

Arretheil
10-13-2010, 07:18 PM
Short-term goals are to:

- Hit cap (8%?)
- Expertise cap (18?)
- Reforge Haste to Mastery?
- Reforge Crit to ?
- Regem for Strength?

Glyphs?
Seems pretty straight forward. I'm doing MS, BS, and OP prime; Cleave, Long Charge, and.. either Rapid Charge or SS for major; and Battle, Beserker, and either Demo or Commanding.

Talents:
Taking Field Dressing for sure, and Blitz over the other ones in tier 1/2.
Taking SS so I can get to 25.
Taking Drums of War and 1 pt in SD just because I don't see anything else I really want for PVE to get to 31.
Then Cruelty and Battle Trance.

Is this basically the path we should be going for now?

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2010, 12:15 AM
here's the results of some random testing. there were a couple of people dps'ing the boss dummy with me so findings aren't 100% conclusive.

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f334/johnurz/arms401dps.jpg

This is my dps, self buffed, no outside buffs, having hit 9% hit (not sure why i'm at 9, i just realized all i need is 8....), 27 expertise, gemming all str where possible while obtaining these previous caps, and reforged all of my haste to mastery, and where there wasn't haste, excess hit, or crit to mastery as well. I ended up with just above 4k AP, 31% crit, and 33% mastery proc chance.

oh and i think i might have forgotten to glyph lol. so uhh yeah harder overpowers, harder MS, and either harder slams, or more often bladestorms. hrm.

I had more proc swings than I had white swings (partly due to heroic striking--not displayed), but still.

woodyman
10-14-2010, 04:52 AM
some awesome info here. ive got ICC tonite so i have a lot of work to do before i get going.
My dps is currently cut in half as well.
i think ill go down the mastery for haste route for now it certainly seems the most viable option

is the cued button press annoying anyone else?

Havsmonstret
10-14-2010, 08:05 AM
So I thought I'd try out Arms in 4.0.1 now though I have some concerns.
With Blood and Thunder (http://cata.wowhead.com/spell=84615), where should I place my Thunderclaps to be most efficient? Directly after Rend?

There's been some discussion on to reforge Crit, but how much crit should I keep?
I guess Sundering is also a good way to increase dps? I used to do that as Fury and suppose it's still viable now (When there's no Warr Tank)?

Cartz
10-14-2010, 08:57 AM
Sundering is a personal DPS loss, but it is essential for the raid. Arms is the least desireable spec to have sundering, prots have it in their standard 'rotation' and fury can weave it in. Arms is still a GCD capped spec, and therefore any sunders are a waste of GCD we could be using to do other damage.

I personally have not reforged my crit, I only reforge haste. Like Kaz I'm sitting at 8% hit and 27 expertise. I can pull about 5.5k on a dummy, this was before the hotfix so I really do not know what to expect tonight.

I do have a question that I'm currently unable to test (at work). If I rend a target, and then use tclap while specced with B&T, does it refresh the rend on my target? Or does it simply apply whatever time remains on my current targets rend to other targets? I will test tonight, but am curious if anyone has tried this. It would be a nice way to eliminate the 0 dps rend gcd with a small dps + debuff tclap gcd, and would give B&T viability in a single target dps spec.

Vossin
10-14-2010, 10:09 AM
Thanks again Kaz =)

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2010, 10:37 AM
i actually opted out of getting bnt and just went 3/3 incite and found that hs crits for a LOT. i'm actually thinking about prioritizing HS (it's on a 3 second cd now i think) above slams, so rend->MS->Overpower->HS->Slam whenever you have nothing else to do, with BS on CD whenever you have all your other abilities on CD. overpower crits a ridiculous amount of times (90% i think right now?) so it's definitely the hardest hitting ability, BUT MS has so many benefits to it (Wrecking Crew/Lambs to the Slaughter) that you should hit MS first, then fire off gargantuan Overpowers.

rage hasn't been that HUGE of an issue to me so long as i throttle my HS usage. i did some more testing this morning, and i got my dps up higher thanks to some more reforging and actually glyphing my skills. was able to break 5.5-6k on the dummy. I'm still hoping this wasn't the "buff" fix that blizzard hotfixed last night and they plan on actually making us do more. I out dps'd a fury warrior last night while tanking....

having 35% mastery means i proc extra swings like crazy, and as far as i can tell, my avg damage on the extra procs are just as hard as the regular melee swings, so the 75% is either broken or i'm getting lucky with procs/enrage timing on those double swings but not on my regular attacks? ;P

bertswilling
10-14-2010, 10:56 AM
With Lambs of slaughter, is it better to use it on OP or on MS?

shiz98
10-14-2010, 11:00 AM
One thing to note is that BnT will refresh Rend on a single target. I've been planning on doing some maths about what kind of DPS increase that is; rather than refreshing Rend, you could just TC at the right time and squeeze out some extra damage, potentially at the cost of some rage. It might not be worth the hassle, but we'll see...

Nez
10-14-2010, 11:03 AM
I out dps'd a fury warrior last night while tanking....

My best fury dps of the night was on Saurfang at 9.5k in decent gear. Everything up to there was abysmal. LOL
I might be giving Arms a go as well for some testing.

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2010, 11:13 AM
One thing to note is that BnT will refresh Rend on a single target. I've been planning on doing some maths about what kind of DPS increase that is; rather than refreshing Rend, you could just TC at the right time and squeeze out some extra damage, potentially at the cost of some rage. It might not be worth the hassle, but we'll see...

yeah, i was thinking that too shiz, because if you just weave in tclaps every 20 seconds instead of rending, you just get the effect of rending but extra damage on that gcd, but i think tclap is 20 rage now, pretty expensive, and the damage modifier is abysmal like .175 AP? in my tank spec/gear i was tclapping for maybe 2k and that's with some level of vengeance buffing my AP. Glad to see you're still alive/active shiz98.

@bertswilling it's a tough call, because MS technically hits harder, but OP has such a ridiculous crit rate, you're almost guaranteed that OP will crit, and therefore deal more damage. actually maybe OP hits harder, it has a LOT of bonus modifiers to it, i think 30% from talents, and 10% from glyphs.

Mačl
10-14-2010, 11:15 AM
Tried to warrior DPS in two specs and after 2hrs at the target dummies I'm still confused.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 01:43 PM
as anectodal as it may or may not be, after speccing arms and reforging all haste -> mastery, I noticed a ~500 DPS gain from being fury and reforging haste -> hit. one thing to note is that I didn't use slam as arms other than on free GCD's while deadly calm was up. HS>slam all the way.

Vossin
10-14-2010, 01:56 PM
Took Chillmaw down no problem today like I used to, with exper maxed that seems to have done the trick =)

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2010, 02:17 PM
yeah, HS hits way harder than slam for sure, makes me wonder if it's worth picking up imp slam at all, BUT then you say, what else do you put points into to get to 31? /sigh there's still room to slam, since HS is on a 3 second cd, but yeah, prio is definitely

rend->MS->op->hs->slam

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 02:24 PM
also get BnT and refresh rend with TC, every time you TC you do the TC damage plus a rend tick,

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2010, 02:33 PM
hrm, true.... but how do i pick up BnT, and still get incite?!

guess i just get 1/3 incite? cuz 2/2 cruelty seems just too good to pass up.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 02:41 PM
this is the spec I went with:
http://cata.wowhead.com/talent#LhbffRMRuRz0bZob
battle trance is nifty, but most of the time you have the rage to use your abilities as you need them so it's not that big of a deal to skip it

Kazeyonoma
10-14-2010, 02:55 PM
yeah, i was thinking along the same lines, except i didn't get second wind, i got 2 sudden death, albeit useless most of the time, liked the execute range effect, and i got throw down, just cuz utility is awesome.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 02:57 PM
If throwdown works on LK valkyr's I will pick it up in a heartbeat. other than that I really can't think of a time I would be able to use it on a boss.

jettzypher
10-14-2010, 02:58 PM
as it is right now at 80 you wont be able to get BnT with incite and keep cruelty. at 85 itll be possible. refreshing rend with TC is pretty nice. 20 rage is a little steep compared to 10, but i havent seen any issues with generating rage; only go a second or less before i get more.


i was sad initially to see a loss of about 1k AP. regular dmg seemed to be kinda low. but crits however were hitting harder. for myself, the avg crit prior was around 9-10k maybe. running around killing quest mobs im seeing MS crit for around 12k easily (and thats without cruelty) and had a few crits from i think execute around 16-17k in HoR last night.*


also, im still of the mind set that haste is bad and sacrificed some on every piece of gear with it for mastery instead. took two pieces to give me the hit and exp needed for caps. i dont have a dps meter so i cant see how often its hitting but i got it up to 35%.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 03:39 PM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zx77djom6tfv212h/sum/damageDone/
been consistently averaging 300-700DPS more than fury, and my GCD/rage usage could be much tighter

Pek
10-14-2010, 06:32 PM
Long time reader, very sporadic poster here. Im curious as to the initial "rotation" you guys are going with when testing on dummies/dps heroics and raids.

All of my current testing has been on dummies and in heroics but after the hot fix and capping expertise, I am able to maintain 6.5k - 7.2k dps on the lvl83 boss dummy. Is this what you guys are getting as well? I don't have any WoL to analyze so you'll have to take my word for it, but I wouldn't mind it if someone could do the following rotation/test and let me know what they come up with.

This is my armoury: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Jubei'Thos&cn=Peke (my ms is prot, so I might be in that set up if I am raiding)
Basic stats:
Self buffed w/ battle shout AP: 4499
Hit and Exp: 8.1% and 27
Crit: 38.86%
Mastery: 9.92 (19%)
Ping: 250 ms (Australian)
FPS: 15 fps
DPS time: 4 minutes (Battle shout duration)

Initial rotation:
Berzerker stance -> Recklessness -> Battle stance -> Battle shout -> Charge -> Rend -> Deadly Calm -> MS -> Overpower -> Then its keeping MS/OP/HS on cooldown. Slams when everything else is on cool down.

Once Deadly Calm has finished. Refresh rend -> MS -> OP, then Bladestorm.

I am usually sitting around 7.5-8k at this point. After the initial burst is done, I drop to 6.8-7.4k. Normal priority continues until Deadly Calm is up and I do it all again (minus the recklessness).

Let me know if you guys are doing something similar. I will try and get some raiding WoL data when I can. Good luck testing!

Edit: Forgot to add that the only thing I'm iffy about with Arms dps is the usage of Bladestorm. Aoe situations in raids would take precedence but for now, it doesn't seem to be as effective of a single target burst/rage gainer as it was pre patch. No data to support, just my observation and feelings on it. Cheers.

jettzypher
10-14-2010, 08:14 PM
i wanna say youre almost wasting a cd by not hitting OP right after rending. seems that TFB is proc'ing almost immediately after applying rend. as we know it pops up every 6 seconds and not hitting it soon as it procs is losing dps. maybe thats changed since everything is different now, who knows.


i miss execute though...

biggiesmalls
10-14-2010, 08:24 PM
2348
4527 AP with B shout
18.65 Mastery (37%)
262 Haste (8.02%)
8.19% Hit chance
38.55% Crit chance
18 exp
(PRE HOTFIX)

Gaiden
10-14-2010, 09:34 PM
Well, I was pretty fed up with the enrage up time on fury, so I decided to try out Arms as well.

Here's the spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LhbcfRMRurkcb

I still took Sudden Death, it allowed to me continuously mash execute which was critting for nearly 30k from time to time.

I passed on incite, but took battletrance & Cruelty these are - in my limited experience -are simply too good not to max as compared to a proc on an attack (Heroic Strike) you don't get to use often enough to make it worth your while.

I also passed on Field Dressing for Drums of War, more healing incoming? or less rage spent for being a good melee and spell canceling? I will take the rage every time.

The gear:
264 Ymir Helm (reforged haste to mastery)
277 Lanathel's neck
264 Ymir Shoulders (reforged haste to mastery)
277 Shadowvault Slayer Cloak (reforged haste to mastery)
264 Ymir Chest (reforged haste to mastery
264 Polar Bear
264 Ymir Gloves
277 Cold Wraith (reforged haste to mastery)
264 Ymir Legs
277 Blood Soaked (reforged haste to mastery)
277 Might of Blight (reforged haste to mastery)
277 Skeleton Lord's
Special note here I had a tanking ring on half the night instead of one of these rings >.< shhh thanks to disconnects and the equipment manager
264 DBW
271 Twilight Scale
Shadowmourne (reforged haste to mastery)
264 Stakethrower (reforged haste to mastery)

I think that's everything....
I won't go into too many details on the gems, but I was able to meet all socket bonuses with some dragon's eye +34 hit gems and other blues etc...
Mostly I stuck with 10str10crit, or 20str, or 20exp gems to meet the caps outside of the hit gems.

Unbuffed Stats (sorry for the approx, I changed two pieces of gear after the raid, these should be very close though):

8.06 hit
26 exp
39% crit
4600 ap (approximately)
14% haste (approximately)
14.40 mastery (28%)

So, here are the logs for the night, I wasn't playing my best, I was still messing around with when to use Deadly Calm, when to cleave and throwing up sweeping strikes at the wrong times, as well as running myself short on rage for MS for a swing QQ.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bb8chzmyjxph1nbv/sum/damageDone/

Also having to watch my bars so closely, my raid awareness was flat garbage on a many occasions :(

All in all though, I had a great time, I'm not too far behind my fury dps for the most part, which was closer to an average of 15-16k on fights like Saurfang or Festergut. I am still missing a lot of key abilities and timing on everything, but for a first night I am not dissapointed and really I can't wait until Colossus Smash.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-bb8chzmyjxph1nbv/details/20/?s=5705&e=5948

This one is interesting, Execute spam at the end, with heroic strikes thrown in, Execute hitting harder than Mortal strikes makes me question using Mortal strike at all sub 20% boss hp, though it is possible to let enrage fall off doing that if it's going to be a long last 20%.

Gaiden
10-14-2010, 10:04 PM
Another note too, I rarely used Slam unless Deadly Calm was active / recently off cooldown with a full rage bar, or I was taking massive damage on Princes. There just isn't enough rage to go around for that one extra attack vs. a Heroic Strike or a cleave on adds / spikes etc.

This spec reminds me a lot of Combat Rogue pre 4.0. You have more decision making to do than fury for timing your cooldowns or combining them for as much damage as possible.

I'm still on the fence about Bladestorm unless there is more than one target to attack, it's at least nice to come off of it with a full rage bar even if the damage isn't as good as continuing MS OP etc... Might be more damage overall with the built up rage, similar to how a rogue would toss out Killing Spree at the lowest possible energy level so as not to cap, but it worked as filler dps sometimes while waiting for energy.

Arikak
10-14-2010, 11:20 PM
In regards to refreshing Rend with thunderclap via BnT:

Have they changed the behavior of Rend? I thought it was a very clear dps gain for Arms to not refresh Rend until it had fallen off. So as not to clip the last tick.

If Thunderclap is hitting harder than Rend ticks for than it's not an issue but I was wondering what others are seeing?

woodyman
10-15-2010, 03:11 AM
Did ICC 10 last night and had reasonable results after going down the haste into mastery route (sitting at 31%)

On bosses i was basically
Shout for rage > charge > rend > MS > OP
then doing deadly calm > HS >slam untill rage was low then bladestorming

exp capped an hit capped i kept fairly good DPS for the start of the fight but once the initial effects of all those rage boosts had died down i found my self rageless even when avoiding using HS at all.

how good is battle trance. ive got cruelty and incite at moment but i wondered if its worth droppin a few points to pick it up.

i might give the TC to renew rend a try tonight as well makes sense to me

Kennris
10-15-2010, 07:35 AM
In regards to using TC vs. Rend and the relative rage costs; the major glyph for TC does reduce the cost to 15 rage. Potentially sugaring the pill there.

Nez
10-15-2010, 08:30 AM
For rend, I was letting it drop out of habit on single targets and using TC to spread it in trash. That plus Bladestorm, cleave and sweeping strikes make Arms rip it up on trash. ( yes I know who cares, but it is still fun ) Seems to do well on the bosses as well. I find my biggest issue is to not rage starve myself with trying to squeeze in too many slams. That really hurts and seems to be very easy to do now.

jettzypher
10-15-2010, 10:28 AM
does no one else notice that OP procs instantly when applying rend? or is it just me?...

Kennris
10-15-2010, 10:52 AM
does no one else notice that OP procs instantly when applying rend? or is it just me?...

I noticed and didn't say anything because I honestly couldn't remember if it always did that and I was just remembering it wrong. The synergy in the opening salvo of Arms is pretty tremendous.

Pek
10-15-2010, 11:19 AM
Yes rend does proc OP straight up now. Pre patch, it used to proc OP 3 seconds in.

It's good to hear people are getting some good results from arms in raids. Hopefully once the nerfs/buffs settle down, we'll be decently placed in regards to dps.

I too let rend drop out of habit, but I think if you reapply it before it finishes, the dot clips i.e. it adds 15 seconds to your remaining rend dot. Can any confirm this, and if this is the case, is it still best for us to let rend fall off or clip it at a certain time remaining?

Nez
10-15-2010, 11:23 AM
TC will refresh the duration on it. Now whether or not that is better/as good as/ letting it drop and reapplying I do not know yet.

Pek
10-15-2010, 11:37 AM
So to summarize for my own understanding, atm we need to establish;

a) Is it better to let rend fall off or to reapply?
b) Is it better to execute spam (with Mortal strikes thrown in for buff) sub 20%?
c) Is reapplying Rend with TC (using Blood and Thunder) worth it?
d) Best time to Bladestorm on single target.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong or add another thing to the list. The more information we can gather from testing the better our warrior community will be.

Gaiden
10-15-2010, 11:47 AM
does no one else notice that OP procs instantly when applying rend? or is it just me?...

If it's the first application of rend, or, if you haven't gotten a proc in the last 6 seconds.

If you've just used an Overpower proc, followed by a new rend application, I believe it's (the proc) still on its own cooldown, even if rend had previously dropped, from what I noticed.

MS was hitting harder than Overpower in all cases last night, and unless MS in on cooldown, because of the bonus damage from Lambs to the Slaughter, I won't be prioritizing Overpower over MS even if it is instantly available.

The important thing is... you only get to use it (pending dodges) once every 6 seconds, just because it's available, and you pass for one GCD doesn't mean you lost any dps. The next proc will come in 6 seconds whether you use it at 1.5 seconds into the proc, or 3 seconds into the proc, or 4.5 seconds into the proc, the cooldown on the proc starts when the proc happens, not when you use it.

Thegreatme
10-15-2010, 12:47 PM
a)because rend now ticks when you apply it, reapplying it doesn't really mess with TfB timing that drasticly, and if you get BnT you can get the application tick plus TC damage.
b) I would say if you have 2/2 SD, probably. when I was trying it with just 1pt I would find my self rage starved a lot wasting GCD's because I was waiting for a swing to go through.
c) if you have the rage to do it, yes.
d) Bladestorm it's that amazing of a DPS cooldown currently, use it pretty much when ever you feel like, but just do it during deadly calm

Pek
10-15-2010, 06:03 PM
Sweet as, cheers for the clarification. Given what we've established, what would you say is our best opening rotation? Recklessness and pre potting aside.

biggiesmalls
10-15-2010, 07:50 PM
Seems the mastery, rend and bladestorm are gettin buffed.
i will be doing some testing once the hotfix hits in eu and will feedback later

jettzypher
10-16-2010, 08:36 AM
If it's the first application of rend, or, if you haven't gotten a proc in the last 6 seconds. yes, first application. i only keep talking about it because people are going on about opening rotation and it seems to me that youd be better off with 'Rend->OP->X ability' as opposed to putting it in the third or fourth spot of the rotation. i also asked if others are seeing this in case it's a fluke with my character and its not supposed to do that.

Krays
10-16-2010, 09:35 AM
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/images/icons/iwarriors.gif Warrior (Forums (http://www.mmo-champion.com/forums/278-Warrior) / Cataclysm Talent Calculator (http://www.wowtal.com/#k=..warrior) / Beta Skills/Talents (http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/1676-Warrior-Cataclysm))
Arms

Rend (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/94009/) base damage has been increased by 50%.
Bladestorm (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/46924/) now deals 150% weapon damage, up from 100%.
Mastery: Strikes of Opportunity (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/76838/) now deals 115% normal damage, up from 75%.

woodyman
10-17-2010, 02:04 AM
Hi all after 3-4 long days of trying new stuff im now pulling 6k+ on the dummy im hoping this is pre buff cos that would be awesome!

first up ive gone with cruelty an incite an not bothered with using TC after lots of time on the dummy ive decided HS really is a bread and butter for ARMS now an any buffage to it from talents is very beneficial

i actually tried my rotation without using slam at all and found my dps not to change and infact had a slight increase although this maybe down to luck of procs

what are people using to draw attention to there free HS CRIT as catching these seems to improve my dps alot but i currently have no add on set up for it.

the other odd thing i found is that oppurtunity strikes actually did as much and in some cases more damage than my melee!
Im currently sitting at 30% mastery. maybe this is down to the buff mentioned above?

So in summary my findings so far
hit cap
expertise cap
turn whatever else you can into mastery
charge >rend> MS or op (im not sure which order on these now due to instant OP proc) then HS......im not even sure about using slam at all

hopefully ill get some hard an fast numbers soon

4600AP with BShout
27% crit (this seems horribly low)
mainly 251 with 2pc T10
using bryntoll
3100 Wheroes GS (just to give u a rough idea of my gear level)

Zaitochi
10-17-2010, 02:34 PM
I've recently respecced to Arms PVP (it works for PVE just have to do some glyph swaps). The spec I use is 31/5/0

My stats are:
8.58% hit
26 Expertise
~35% crit

Rotation I use:
Charge (when possible) > Rend > MS > OP+HS if rage permits! or if there isnt enough Slam.

I also noticed its also possible to get a double back to back proc of TfB not sure on the exact timing though, probably the same as before 3-4 secs left OP then it should proc again?

bertswilling
10-17-2010, 11:21 PM
I have found that Incite is MUCH better than Battle Trance. Heroic strike hits for a lot of damage, and rage has not been an issue for me, even soloing a target dummy (only a 5200 GS as well). I have found that charge+initial white hit gives enough rage for Rend and Heroic Strike followed by MS, then OP. Heroic strike not being linked to GCD makes it extremely powerful.

@Zaitochi: TfB will proc every 6 seconds (or two rend ticks) as long as you are keeping it up. Buff lasts 9 sec, so thats 3 sec of overlap.

A few people have said something about doing OP right after rend, before MS. Absolutely no reason for this, you lose no dps whatsoever by holding onto OP proc (as long as you do it within 6 sec). Furthermore, if TfB procced off of last application of rend (or even 2nd to last((meaning every time))), you have 6 sec (3 sec) to reapply rend before missing a TfB proc. This is important when you are deciding b/w MS or rend if MS is ready right when rend ended (happens a lot). Hitting MS first and then Rend after 1 additional GCD (3s after rend ended) should be more dps than Rend before MS.

shiz98
10-17-2010, 11:34 PM
a)because rend now ticks when you apply it, reapplying it doesn't really mess with TfB timing that drasticly, and if you get BnT you can get the application tick plus TC damage.
I don't agree here. We have the same reapplication problems we did before. Of course, the "feel" of the rotation has changed a bit, so it may well be more DPS to reapply because you no longer need to squeeze every last drop of DPS from each GCD. Still, the ticking mechanism is the same.


Bladestorm it's that amazing of a DPS cooldown currently, use it pretty much when ever you feel like, but just do it during deadly calm
I suspect this is a typo, but to be abundantly clear, you don't want to use it during inner calm. You're wasting 4.5s of IC, and practically speaking Bladestorm is going to leave you with a full rage bar anyway.

I've been running with a very haste-heavy build (I'm to cheap to reforge, and it doesn't even matter anymore anyway), which gives probably more-than-is-ideal rage gen, but I've found the following priority queue works fine on a dummy:


Expiring OP
Keep rend up
Mortal Strike
HS
OP


With Slam as a rage dump. I haven't really used it as part of my rotation in testing, because I can't sacrifice the rage. In a real-world encounter it'll probably see more use. The key point is that HS > Slam. It's more damage per rage.

My current questions revolve around BnT and Rend. I need to figure out what the ideal Rend refreshing situation is, and tie that in with BnT vs Incite.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 12:12 AM
Alright, let's look at Rend a bit. I'm going to rebuild a bit of the post 3.1 theorycrafting just so we're all on the same page here (and because I honestly can't remember all the assumptions that went into this stuff :P), so bear with me.

First, Rend reapplication. Here's a full TfB cycle


00s--03s--06s--09s--12s--15s--18s (Rend ticks)
TfB-------Tfb-------TfB-------TfB (TfB procs)


So the ideal outcome from a TfB perspective to to have Rend pop back up the moment Rend falls off. What happens if we rend "too soon" by refreshing it? Here's what happens if we refresh Rend 1s before it falls off:


00s--03s--06s--09s--12s-14s--17s--20s
TfB-------TfB-------TfB-----------TfB


TfB can't proc when Rend ticks at 17s, because it's only been 5s since the last TfB proc. We end up waiting 5s longer for TfB by reapplying Rend 1s earlier.

On the other hand, here's what happens if we rend "too late" by applying it 1s after it falls off:


00s--03s--06s--09s--12s--15s16s--19s
TfB-------Tfb-------TfB----------TfB


We get TfB 1 second after the ideal situation.

The timing for pre-4.0.1 Rend is pretty much the same (Glyph of Rend adds a bit of length, but it's all the same in the end). The reason I advocated letting Rend fall off back then was simple: it increases your damage per GCD, and it increases your TfB count over the course of a fight. There wasn't any downside.

Nowadays, we have the question of BnT mucking things up. There are three components to the equation that we have to account for:

Can we sacrifice the damage per GCD (Gut feeling: yes)
Can we sacrifice the damager per rage (Gut feeling: yes)
Does the damage from BnT make up for the loss OP usage over a fight (maybe)


The place to use BnT in the rotation is directly after the 12s Rend proc (well, in the one case I'm looking at here. those of you following along at home can figure the timing out on the second half of the rotation yourself for now). This will ensure that we lose the least amount of time possible on the next TfB proc. So your timeline looks like


Rend proc
TC
OP/MS/HS/What have you


We can assume that a player's lag/reflexes towards hitting that TC are going to be the same as reapplying Rend, which means that we can discount any potential OP losses. What we lose then, is that last Rend tick. We need to compare the TC damage vs the Rend tick damage. We then need to calculate the bonus damage that Incite gives us (we need field data on HS usage for this), and compare the two. We should also factor in the extra rage cost of Thunderclap clipping, both from a Rend perspective and from a TC perspective, and compare that to the equivalent damage from Slam (a straight damage per rage comparison will do the trick, probably).

And then we'll have an answer :)

It's late, I'll do the maths tomorrow.

Muffin Man
10-18-2010, 12:15 AM
So how are you guys weighting stats?

So far I've gotten as far as:
hit to cap -> strength

then I'm thinking haste for more rage so you can fill up GCDs with more slam?
or are you guys going for crit / mastery?

shiz98
10-18-2010, 12:15 AM
Help me!
What I need from you, good Arms warriors, are some real-life parses. Specifically, I need to know your Heroic Strike usage. Preferably you'll be using the rotation I posted above, with HS prioritized over Slam (because I think it'll be the way to play Arms going forward), but the data are useful even if you're using some funky rotation.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 12:32 AM
So how are you guys weighting stats?

So far I've gotten as far as:
hit to cap -> strength

then I'm thinking haste for more rage so you can fill up GCDs with more slam?
or are you guys going for crit / mastery?
It's an interesting question. Here's the thing with haste: slam scales poorly with it, and it increases your rage gen. I think it's already pretty well established (Kaze and TGM both seem pretty sure on this -- their vouching is proof enough for me) that Slam is the new rage dump. So we have this interesting situation where more haste = more rage = more slam, which isn't going to get the full benefit of Haste. By the time you get down to slam's damage, the benefit is pretty watered down.

Working off the assumption that we cap hit, and leaving expertise out of the equation for now, we've got
STR
Crit
Haste
Mastery

I wonder how effective Mastery is at helping rage gen. Do those extra swing generate rage like they used to for Sword Spec? Do they generate the full rage? If the conversion factors are similar, you may get more of a rage benefit from mastery than from haste.

Really, I have no clue on stats --there's a lot of math to be done.

Ummon
10-18-2010, 04:38 AM
Extra swings off Mastery (Strikes of Opportunity no less...) do appear to generate rage, I'm currently running with a 38% Mastery and SoO are adding 10-15% to my dps output, I'm assuming that's free damage, with the 125% weapon modifier it's not inconsiderable. I can rage starve myself pretty easily, but BS and Bladestorm are the new rage Innervate!

I've reforged much of the extra haste into Hit, Exp and Mastery, and have reforged some Crit into Mastery too, mainly to see what it does at higher proc probabilities.

Re-gemmed for strength where appropriate.

I'm running with Incite, and HS is easily out-damaging anything else I can to, even if the individual swings don't have the punch of OP or MS.

I'm missing a good set of bracers, as I had Tokk's Maximiseds on and I had to buy some Titanium Spikeguards to get the Plate Specialisation, however I'm sure I can grab a decent pair in ICC this week or next. Still I'm running 8.5K plus in heroics.

Raiding tonight.

Kazeyonoma
10-18-2010, 10:47 AM
haven't had a chance to raid as arms yet shiz, i'll try to get into a run or two tonight, if not then tomorrow's raid reset should see me in the raid, and i'll see if i can get them to let me dps =P

Nez
10-18-2010, 11:00 AM
I had to learn to be very careful with Slam in my raid last week to avoid rage starving myself. It is not just an attack you work in each open space now. You really have to consider your rage much more carefully, or so it seemed to me at least.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 11:04 AM
I'll see what I can do about testing whether or not mastery proc do generate rage, and if so how much rage they generate. I'll probably also do some recording and get a quick and simple video guide out there similar to my fury one at this time as well (maybe. I need to confirm a few things before I would be willing to upload such a guide).

PS. wtb the ability for reforging load outs to be saved for a given talent spec. having to spend 5 minutes reforging all of my gear every time I want to viably test a spec blows.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 11:52 AM
Cool Kaze, I look forward to the parses.

I realize now that I'm awake, that my plan for figuring out the damage calculations was somewhat flawed. The whole idea using BnT at the right time is that we can sustain Rend without a loss in Rend or OP damage; the only difference we're seeing is in damage per rage and GCD usage. Once there's some Incite info I should be able to do a fairly straightforward comparison, which will likely favor incite over BnT, so that'll be nice.

What's going to be difficult is to see if using BnT is worth it if you're not specced incite. It may well be that incite is the better single-target spec, but that BnT is a better all-around spec for its greater AoE damage. I think what I'll do is find the rage/second loss from using BnT to refresh Rend, and then compare that to the equivalent DPS from putting the rage towards Slam.

Actually, I don't really need to do that. Slam costs the same as TC, and does significantly more damage. Of course, Slam also has a hidden rage cost due to delaying that white hit, but so does BnT. Refreshing rend with TC costs us 20 rage every 12s, while reapplying costs 15 rage every 15s; refreshing costs 0.67 more rage per second than reapplying. Over 12 seconds that's 8 rage, which brings the total rage cost of BnT up to 28 rage, relatively speaking.

So if we compare on my warrior:
28 rage for ~500 damage
20 + x rage for ~ 2000 damage (x = 8 seems like a fair assumption, as well)

--

To recap, BnT is fairly flexible in use. So long as you use it right after TfB procs, you can essentially negate any potential damage losses that would normally arise from messing up your Rend timing. This lets you scale its usage nicely: you can go at 0s, 6s, or 12s into your Rend for bonus damage. The sooner into your Rend you TC, the more damage you'll be doing. However, TC does have a significant rage cost, in addition to the rage "lost" by clipping Rend. As it turns out, you can spend this same rage on Slam for more DPS per rage.

TL;DR: If you want better single-target DPS, spec Incite. If you want better multi-target DPS, spec BnT. Regardless, don't use BnT to refresh Rend; just let the debuff fall off, and then reapply it right away.

Kazeyonoma
10-18-2010, 01:24 PM
good to know shiz, i'll probably spec out of bnt and go back into incite since HS just does so much damage now.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 01:28 PM
Mastery bonus attack procs do not generate rage.

Kazeyonoma
10-18-2010, 01:39 PM
hrm, well that sucks, that would've been a huge boon to stacking mastery to keep up HS frequency.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 01:49 PM
that it would, but at the same time it would make haste pretty much worthless. why get 1% haste when you can turn that 1% haste in to 2% more mastery procs except for the fact that haste results in more rage.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 01:53 PM
Any word on whether it'll proc off of Rend/DW ticks?

Assuming that STR > Crit, we need to figure out where Mastery fits into that equation. I've been able to maintain HS/OP/Rend/MS perfectly fine on a dummy if I'm not using slam. Has everyone else found the same? If so, then Haste exists pretty much to give us more Slam usage.

Kazeyonoma
10-18-2010, 01:56 PM
same, on dummy HS/OP/rend/MS is fine if i don't slam. it's actually almost perfect, i constantly have just enough rage to do each ability on cd.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 02:11 PM
it's looks like it can proc off rend applications, but not the regular DoT ticks.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 02:24 PM
Stand back everyone, it's time to use math!

Given the above rotation, we're looking at 17 rps to maintain it.


ms = 25r/4.5s = 5.556 rps
op = 5r/6s = 0.833 rps
rend = 10r/15s = 0.667 rps
hs = 30r/3s = 10 rps

RPS = 17.056 rps


Boiling in some sane numbers, we get the following equation for slam cost


slam_cost = 20 + (1 + haste) * 8.4966


At 0 haste, slam costs 28.5 rage.
At 100% haste, slam costs 37 rage

shiz98
10-18-2010, 02:29 PM
So assuming we're starting a 0 haste, each % of haste we get lets us hit Slam once more every 165s. That doesn't sound very useful.

bertswilling
10-18-2010, 02:32 PM
Mastery rating gives more % proc than haste rating gives % speed, maybe i did math wrong or there are diminishing returns i dunno. Additionally, mastery procs now cause 115% damage (may not be accurate any more), and have the ability to crit, meaning mastery rating>>haste rating. I haven't had any problems with rage generation on target dummy after reforging all of my haste. As Kaz said earlier, i have enough rage to do MS, OP, Rend, HS every CD almost perfectly, sometimes having only 5 rage when i want to OP.

So for stats i think its no question that mastery>haste. However crit vs. mastery is another question. I have not checked out the rating to percentage exchange for crit vs. mastery. Mastery is basically crit (but adds 115%(or 230% damage if OS crits!)). But crit gives DW, impale bonus, and enrage 10% bonus with MS crits. With incite, crit procs more incites, but also makes the incite buff less potent. I'm low on crit as is so i havent reforged it to mastery, but it deserves some attention.

IMO str>crit>=mast>>haste, assuming hit and expertise cap.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 02:36 PM
The thing with Master vs Haste is that haste gives rage. There's no doubt that Haste is absolutely terrible as a DPS stat (it only affects your white DPS), but it could potentially give a decent DPS through the extra rage it generates.

jesberger
10-18-2010, 03:19 PM
Hey guys, i am really curious as to see if anybody has tested fury as well as arms? Just curious because i am Fury, and have been following the fury thread. But has anybody tested both, and if so what was the outcome? Just curious because i have been hearing that arms is the direction to go, but i am really not sure at this point. Would love to hear the dps differences and likes/dislikes. Any input is appreciated.

Kazeyonoma
10-18-2010, 03:43 PM
Maybe the Understanding Fury 4.0 thread?

Arikak
10-18-2010, 03:45 PM
Hey guys, i am really curious as to see if anybody has tested fury as well as arms? Just curious because i am Fury, and have been following the fury thread. But has anybody tested both, and if so what was the outcome? Just curious because i have been hearing that arms is the direction to go, but i am really not sure at this point. Would love to hear the dps differences and likes/dislikes. Any input is appreciated.

Go the with the spec you like to play. Try them both.

raktral
10-18-2010, 09:14 PM
first let me say you guys most likely know way more about the numbers involved i'm going off what i've read and what it feels like to me.

SoO hits about as hard as slam (atleast for me) but slam cost rage, ueses a GCD and slows our swing timer, SoO on the other hand i free and takes nothing out of our rotation so for me atleast i have reforged all my haste and some other stats to mastery.

shiz98
10-19-2010, 12:26 AM
Actually, that is good to know. It's actually a fair assumption right now that SoO hits as hard as Slam, which makes the comparisons a lot simpler.

Assuming MS, OP, and Heroic Strike are used on cooldown, Rend is reapplied every 15s, and we've got a 3.6s weapon, Arms should generate 1.067 hits per second. This means that with 1% more Mastery, we'll get an extra hit for every 47 seconds (accounting for the 2% gain from 1% mastery).

1% haste => extra slam every 165s
1% mastery => extra SoO every 47s

Conversion ratings are


45.906 mastery rating => 1% mastery
32.79 haste rating => 1% haste


And damage is roughly equal


Slam = Weapon Damage * 1.50 + 249
SoO = Weapon Damage * 1.15

I'm assuming here that AP normalization is applied equally to both abilities. SoO should be normalized. However, I recall Slam not being AP normalized at some point in the past, which was largely a triviality so it's hard to find info on it.

For the sake of comparison (and because I haven't said normalize enough yet), let's normalize the combat ratings for mastery and haste for a more meaningful comparison:


30 Haste Rating => extra slam every 180s
30 Mastery Rating => extra SoO every 72s


Given how much more frequently you'll be be getting SoO procs than hitting Slam, I don't think we even need to calculate scaling or white damage increases (certainly, not in this expac :)). Which gives us...

The updated stat priority
STR ?> Crit ? Mastery > Haste

STR being on top is an assumption, though likely a good one. We don't yet know the value of crit vs mastery. What we do know is that Haste is worse than Mastery, provided you're able to maintain you HS/OP/Rend/MS rotation.

Pek
10-19-2010, 06:06 PM
Since it's not in here yet, I'm going to throw this in so everyone is up to date (source mmo-champ);

Arms
Taste for Blood will not occur more than once every 5 sec, down from 6 sec.

shiz98
10-19-2010, 06:33 PM
Argh, I know, right? I was all like "great, Rend/TfB/BnT is a solved problem" and then they had to go throw a curveball at us. I'm assuming, however, that this change will only be applied with the 4.0.3 (cata launch) patch? That would be nice.

Pek
10-19-2010, 07:01 PM
I assume so too. Tool tip is still 6 sec and the information was taken from Cataclysm Beta - Build 13202.

woodyman
10-20-2010, 01:20 AM
Sorry if this has already been answered but does a critical strike give more rage than a normal hit?
if so then surely that would put it slightly ahead of mastery due to the extra rage created. If not then the other key point maybe....does the free swing from mastery set of on hit procs?

if so then more swings = more procs....just something i was thinking about last night

Kazeyonoma
10-20-2010, 08:37 AM
http://www.wowmeteronline.com/combat/log/1931598

i dps'd up till putricide =P

Kazeyonoma
10-20-2010, 08:37 AM
Sorry if this has already been answered but does a critical strike give more rage than a normal hit?
if so then surely that would put it slightly ahead of mastery due to the extra rage created. If not then the other key point maybe....does the free swing from mastery set of on hit procs?

if so then more swings = more procs....just something i was thinking about last night

no, crits don't generate extra rage anymore, rage is based on your white swings landing not on how hard they hit, so it's based entirely on how fast you swing.

Nez
10-20-2010, 08:45 AM
Kazey, would you mind posting your toons main stats to go along with that log if you get a chance? I'd like to compare with mine and see the differences.
Thanks
=]

EDIT----------

NM, found what you posted in the Caty forum Arms thread'


i know my haste is around 11% and i'm currently using a 3.7 speed shadow's edge. about 4k unbuffed AP, 30-31% crit, and 35% mastery

Kazeyonoma
10-20-2010, 10:17 AM
yeah i double checked and it is 11.07% haste, 3.7 speed shadow's edge, 4200 ap i think it was, with 31% crit with 35% mastery. hit capped and 27 expertise. all unbuffed. buffed brought my crit up a lot higher which was nice, and my AP higher as well.

Nez
10-20-2010, 01:49 PM
Thanks man, I think I can see why my skill use and damage is bit behind yours, I'm lower in Haste and Mastery, higher in AP and Crit. So I am getting quite a bit less SoO hits and struggling to keep enough rage for normal skills even though I'm not using slam. Going to try and do a bit more tweaking for the next raid.

raktral
10-20-2010, 06:06 PM
my stats are 4.2K AP, 15% haste, 28% crit, 28% mastery useing ramaladni's blade of culling (norm) my weapon sucks, are my numbers lacking somewere?

i also find i never use slam unless i'm useing deadly calm

shiz98
10-20-2010, 09:49 PM
I just did a raid dual-specced Arms and Fury, and Arms did not seem to be competitive. My gearing for both specs wasn't ideal, but Fury seemed to be ahead by a significant margin. I'm wondering if Arms is really viable at this point...

Zaitochi
10-20-2010, 11:22 PM
I don't know if anyone has noticed this but it seems that TfB has been missing a few procs for me. I used to get way more procs before 4.0.1 but after it seems I get less or rather the procs are missing sometimes.

Oh yes this is my stat priority:
Hit cap (8%)
Exp soft cap (26)
Crit (~30% keep it around here maybe).
Reforge extra stats into Mastery.

Gems are straight forward of course Str gems in red, Hybrids are Str/Hit and Str/Crit.

shiz98
10-21-2010, 12:40 AM
Hm, define "missing a few procs." We lost Glyph of Rend, which is going to get us 1 less proc per Rend application. Are you referring to that sort of thing, or are you actually not getting TfB procs every 6 seconds?

woodyman
10-21-2010, 01:35 AM
Im at 4500 ap
30% crit
30% mastery
12% haste
self buffed using Bryntoll

last night on dummy i managed 6.7k dps and im currently stuck with a rubbish 226 neck due to item changes

i foung HS was top damage with 65% crit rate
OP second with 95% crit rate

i think i have pretty much streamlined my rotation now and am fitting in the odd slam with no rage issues
i dropped some mastery for crit an it definately had a good effect on my dps

if they are buffing the damage to our mastery strikes we could see some real nice numbers i think (fingers crossed)

would you say 6.7k on the dummy with my stats is fairly good?

Ipos
10-22-2010, 04:13 AM
Hm, define "missing a few procs." We lost Glyph of Rend, which is going to get us 1 less proc per Rend application. Are you referring to that sort of thing, or are you actually not getting TfB procs every 6 seconds?

Sometimes TfB just don't proc when it should and you get the next one. Guys at EJ are guessing it's due to latency, and the reason for TfB to proc every 5 sec in latest beta. This also happened to me multiple times even with latency below 200ms.

Zaitochi
10-22-2010, 12:52 PM
Sometimes TfB just don't proc when it should and you get the next one. Guys at EJ are guessing it's due to latency, and the reason for TfB to proc every 5 sec in latest beta. This also happened to me multiple times even with latency below 200ms.

Yes I'm thinking it has something to do with that and my latency is about 120ms in game but I don't remember if I'm using Leatrix's latency fix.

Gaiden
10-22-2010, 07:16 PM
I just did a raid dual-specced Arms and Fury, and Arms did not seem to be competitive. My gearing for both specs wasn't ideal, but Fury seemed to be ahead by a significant margin. I'm wondering if Arms is really viable at this point...

Unfortunately, I don't think it is, or will be until we get Crushing blow.

Through multiple reforging, trying different stats out, mastery etc, the best I was able to accomplish as arms was about 16k dps, even on Festergut with mostly unlimited rage.

For fury, I've pulled out 19k on almost everything I touched.

I was able to be more competitive on fights like Deathwhisper (to fury as Arms), where Arms will shine a bit with Bladestorm and Sweeping strikes, but even then I was 2k or more behind some fury parses.

/sadpanda

I really would like arms better, but I will go with whatever gives my guild the best chances.

shiz98
10-22-2010, 07:35 PM
Yeah, having an ability missing from the rotation doesn't work so well there. I've been willing to stick with Arms even when it's noticeably less dps, the difference I'm seeing between Fury and Arms is just too large to ignore.

Pek
10-23-2010, 06:47 AM
Agreed. I don't get to dps much as my main spec is Prot, but I was really hoping this patch would allow us Arms lovers to at least be competitive with Fury. Alas, it looks like we'll have to wait until Cata hits. Time to reforge a Fury set me thinks.

Also, I'm not sure how late I am on this bandwagon but read this the other day. http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t97237-cataclysm_warrior_changes/p21/

Basically the peeps over at EJs are saying that we only require 22 expertise (171-173 rating) to not have any dodges. Previously the cap was 26 expertise, but from proof submitted, plus my own boss dummy auto swing testing at 171 rating, it seems 22 expertise is the new magic number. I'm not sure if this is a bug but it's a minor change that might allow you to free up some stats.

woodyman
10-23-2010, 09:29 AM
hmmm ill have to give this a try as expertise is currently taking up alot of my reforging whic could be mastery.
ive not come up against many fury warriors of yet but after much fine tuning i know im hitting the same DPS if not a little bit more than i was pre patch so im not ready to give up on arms just yet.

Gaiden
10-23-2010, 11:48 AM
hmmm ill have to give this a try as expertise is currently taking up alot of my reforging whic could be mastery.
ive not come up against many fury warriors of yet but after much fine tuning i know im hitting the same DPS if not a little bit more than i was pre patch so im not ready to give up on arms just yet.

Well that's just it, I was only doing 15k pre-patch as fury, I can do that as arms post-patch, but my fury dps is almost 20k single target now, fury is better than it was, as is arms, but I think arms is still too far behind fury.

Zaitochi
10-23-2010, 02:50 PM
Agreed. I don't get to dps much as my main spec is Prot, but I was really hoping this patch would allow us Arms lovers to at least be competitive with Fury. Alas, it looks like we'll have to wait until Cata hits. Time to reforge a Fury set me thinks.

Also, I'm not sure how late I am on this bandwagon but read this the other day. http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t97237-cataclysm_warrior_changes/p21/

Basically the peeps over at EJs are saying that we only require 22 expertise (171-173 rating) to not have any dodges. Previously the cap was 26 expertise, but from proof submitted, plus my own boss dummy auto swing testing at 171 rating, it seems 22 expertise is the new magic number. I'm not sure if this is a bug but it's a minor change that might allow you to free up some stats.

That is pretty interesting I think I might give that a try since all the ratings seemed to have changed ie 246 hit rating instead of 264 or something...

woodyman
10-25-2010, 03:34 AM
Yep tried 22 expertise and had no dodges at all
now just to try and lower the hit a little and see how that goes!

did 9.5k dps on toravon too and beat a fury warr of similar gear wahoo!

Pek
10-25-2010, 05:00 PM
Nice! I changed over to Fury to help maximise raid dps and I'm finding the new 4.0.1 Fury quite fun. Much better, faster and engaging than pre patch. However, I thought that being Fury, I would have less threat issues when dpsing, but I find I'm pulling the same, if not more threat than I would when I was Arms >.<

jettzypher
10-25-2010, 08:50 PM
thats because the removal of the old improved berserker stance talent which lowered threat generated. but with that gone and doing generally more dmg, youre pulling more threat (obviously).


after running through a portion of icc10 tonight ive found that while my dps as arms is still lacking, i was doing way more overall damage than everyone else around me (somewhere around 2mil more than the #2 guy).*

Krays
10-26-2010, 06:36 AM
How much sustained DPS are the Sm weilding full HC geared people doing on heroic dummy (no outside buffs at all).

Heres my arms warrior..

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&cn=Gnomeo

Not really reforged anyging except my cape which was great before the patch but now is so freaking bad for warriors.

I got about 6k (so guy who got 6.7k dps seem about right he has alot better gear, just curious how high can this go with bis )

I tried stance dancing for MS , but found this a dps loss, you miss OP procs by about .5 sec to 1 sec, and might get rage starved at some points. I tried it only during deadly clam too. but was dps loss for me. Maybe with macros its useable but i dont think its worth it at all, arms dps seems quite good without resorting to this. I actually found fury very poor compared to arms, but that just cause im still way behind in dps gear to most people i assume.

Krays
10-26-2010, 06:52 AM
Also anyone else notcied MS hits alot harder than Op now, in current rotation we all probbaly end up using our lamb to slaughter buff on OP, rather than another MS. I wonder is it worth delaying something in the rotation or changing prioriot to make it so you use the buff on another MS more often.

woodyman
10-26-2010, 06:57 AM
Krays i would think with your gear rage generation would be a little bit of an issue down to the amount of haste you have and thus your overall swing time.
have you made sure ur expertise capped and hit capped (expertise is now 22 not sure on hit)

also have u tried cutting slam out of your rotation completely? i found this helped my rage issues alot and gave me a dps increase
reforging for me gave me quite a dps increase.

after alot of playing about ive found around 30% crit 12%ish haste and 25-30% mastery to be a nice balance

Krays
10-26-2010, 07:47 AM
Yeh i dropped slam aswell now, but i do still use it occasionally , for eg during deadly clam. Alo when i said you had alot better gear think i exaggerated lol, its not thar much diff , i think just the weapon really and trinkets.

Im a prot warrior by default, so the price of regemming two my dps set was quite high im doing it slowly :P.

Snippeh
10-27-2010, 10:15 AM
I was doing ICC, and just using the rotation of Keeping rend up, MS, OP, HS and slam here and there I was only pulling 6.3k dps :/ There has go to be something Im doing wrong...

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Undermine&cn=Snippeh mine gear!

Arretheil
10-27-2010, 02:03 PM
I was doing ICC, and just using the rotation of Keeping rend up, MS, OP, HS and slam here and there I was only pulling 6.3k dps :/ There has go to be something Im doing wrong...

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Undermine&cn=Snippee mine gear!

That link is for a DK. When looking for Snippeh, he's in prot gear, so it's hard to tell.

I think the general consensus right now is that we should be staying away from slam for the most part - there's no real room in the rotation and MS,OP,and HS are all better options.

Snippeh
10-27-2010, 05:04 PM
Oh yea fixed the link...I forgot he was in Prot gear :C Will have to fix that

jettzypher
10-28-2010, 11:18 AM
so im gonna assume that you have a pve weapon that you use when raiding and im looking at a pvp sword just because you were pwnin some n00b face last time you were on. if thats not the case, need to wrap your fingers around something from a boss. losing alot of str by not having one.


that said, youre probably not maximizing you gcd's and talent procs. if you dont have a way to watch your procs, you should get one. that way you will know when incite occurs to HS before it goes away, when slaughter procs to use MS>OP before it goes away.

Kothar
11-02-2010, 11:39 AM
Hey after reading and then re-reading this discussion i was wondering what stats everyone is reforgeing to get the most mastery bonus...i currently have a 30% chance to activate SoO. I personally reforged all my Haste and the 2 attribues on my trinkets for Mastery bonus.

Any help would be appreciate it ill link my armory page...
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bladefist&cn=Tiet

also whats the status with Deadly Calm....should we be using it or no?

shiz98
11-02-2010, 05:29 PM
There's no reason not to use inner calm. Pop it as soon as possible after you've used bladestorm and have low rage, and go wild.

I don't know the value of mastery just yet. It's probably not something I'll look into this expac, since Arms is significantly lower anyway.

Walkinman
11-03-2010, 06:14 AM
Raided on my Arms warrior for the first time last night (As in proper guild run since 4.0.1 hit - not a weekly PUG run) and was very unwhelmed by the experience. Found myself frequently in situations where I didn't have the rage to maintain my rotation (The as mentioned, Rend, MS, OP and then HS). Most of my gear has been reforged to try and up my mastery, whilst not sacrificing to much the other requried stats.

Just really wasn't expecting to feel on a par with my Suv Hunter that is still carting round two rare trinkets, plus other sub-standard gear

Am hoping still that even this close to Cata I will still pick up a couple of bits of gear that would help, but found the who experience a bit meh...

Would be tempted to give Fury a bash, but can't face the reforging and regemming!

Ipos
11-03-2010, 06:52 AM
Do not expect to HS every time MS and OP are on cd, but when you have more than 50 rage. Use some addons to monitor your rage/skills as arms has realy tight rotation now. I use power auras to light a HS only at >50 rage.

Walkinman
11-04-2010, 04:03 AM
From what I have read though, I thought that we still needed to maximise every-single GCD? Guess I still need to be having a play around on the training dummy and see what I can do.

Can I also ask, what people are using at the moment to watch for their talent proc's?. Like the sound of using Power Auras's as per Ipos' post

jettzypher
11-04-2010, 11:32 AM
i use a modified version of tukui with classtimers. keeps track of whatever i want it to. power auras is a good stand alone to use.


im at a loss to advise on what people should do. ive reforged haste in mastery, got rid of the excess expertise, and use everything i can every gcd. occasionally ill be out of rage for one gcd every so often but its minimal. the only issue i can think of as to why people are having low numbers still is theyre not paying attention to their damn procs.


also, people are still paying attention to solely dps, without paying attention to overall damage done. i believe i mentioned above how i ran through icc10 and while i was like 2nd or 3rd on the list for dps, i did like 1.5mil more overall dmg than the next person. while it may come slower, i still do more.

PimpJuice4
11-04-2010, 02:13 PM
Would be tempted to give Fury a bash, but can't face the reforging and regemming!

i havent tried fury yet.but ive heard its in pretty bad shape compared to what it was pre patch,i guess the removal of armor penitration really screwed over fury warriors

i was thinkin about tryin out fury for pvp,but then i relized they have no talent like warbringer and juggernaught so i dont really see how that would work out since you cant charge in combat.and i know intercept i think needs rage to use

DeviousOne
11-05-2010, 02:26 AM
Fury is still stupidly strong, especially with the hotfixes. I'm top 5 easily, usually top 1-3 on most fights. On really short fights, arcane mages are insane. Arms warriors can't compete on single target fights but they are really good on aoe fights, such as HM LK.
Pulled 22-23k on Saurfang this week as Fury.

Dreemz
11-05-2010, 04:24 AM
I ran ICC10 last night, and was pulling some significant DPS as Arms, about 11k on Saurfang. I think it's great DPS to be perfectly honest, but as a player who has yet to try Fury yet, does anyone think it's worth trying?

silvach
11-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Arms will be even better DPS thanks to Collosus Smash and it chance to "reduce cooldown" talent. I can't imagine the burst of DPS while 6seocnd of totaly ignoring armor...

Krays
11-08-2010, 09:59 AM
Is mastery really that good for arms pve? The buff to arms mastery isnt on eu server yet AFAIK, should i still be getting mastery?

Kazeyonoma
11-08-2010, 11:14 AM
right now the arms dps is kind of in shambles because we're missing a core component of our rotation (colossus smash). Mastery speculation was done by only myself and a few others to test it, and it yielded positive results.

Squirrelnut
11-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Yea so... I respecced Arms, re-glyphed, reforged all my gear so that I maintained 8% hit, 23 expertise and all other haste reforged into Mastery.

End result with full 277 & Shadowmourne (other then bad trinkets, sigh @ ilvl264): Arms was a complete letdown

At this point the ONLY reason to go Arms from a PvE standpoint is boredom and wanting top200 WoL parse because no one else with good gear will do it so you have no competition. Being beaten by bad Fury DPS warriors with inferior gear quickly directed me back to the trainer to re-spec back to Fury lol.

Considering the fact that any buff a Warrior could consider bringing can be handled by huntard pets I just can't condone the DPS loss of switching to Arms =(

Too bad, I always liked Arms as it fit my Prot Warrior ability use approach.

jettzypher
11-08-2010, 04:58 PM
im still not convinced how people think arms is completely bad. from my experience they deal dmg slower but hit like a train. everything ive done with my warrior as arms ive done top overall damage by a long shot. try looking about those numbers and not just 'dps'.*

Squirrelnut
11-08-2010, 05:04 PM
im still not convinced how people think arms is completely bad. from my experience they deal dmg slower but hit like a train. everything ive done with my warrior as arms ive done top overall damage by a long shot. try looking about those numbers and not just 'dps'.*
Actually I don't base my impressions on 'DPS' I base it on multiple factors which I record with CombatLog and upload to World of Logs. I review Total Damage, DPS, and most importantly Individual Ability use and the hits/crits/average numbers for each ability.

Simple fact right now: Same Warrior with same gear Fury vs Arms if fully enchanted/gemed/reforged/specced/glyphed correctly the Fury Warrior is going to do 4-8K DPS more on the same fights. Fights that I care about are Saurfang and Festergut as they are the DPS benchmarks for melee DPS.

Anyone that is convinced Arms is on an equal level I would love to see some parse results proving that fact with the same gear Arms vs Fury.

Everyone's idea of "good" vs "bad" dps is different, what I care about is the discrepancy between numbers when looking at Fury vs Arms with comparable gear on the same fight with the same buffs.


EDIT: And no Arms isn't 'completely bad', it has use in PvP lol. Throwdown ftw

silvach
11-08-2010, 07:28 PM
Well.. i think Arms DPS will explode with Colossus Smash available. If lucky, you can have it on the target for most time of the fight.

In addition, Fury was ment to be PVE as Arms was ment to be PVP - so doing more DPS by arms is nearly impossible. But still it's quite a fun to hear "lol's" when you do 40-50% damage overall and smash 2k more DPS than some faceroll arcane mages :)

I can't imagine playing Fury, Warrior should be like a B.F.G 10k, smashing once, but deadly. Fury is... too delicate.

btw. with deadly calm, Incinite, and Battle Trance, using HS,MS,OP,Slam you ARE able to do alot of damage. I'm 79 now @ my warrior - and boomkins as locks and mages cant outdps me at 1target fights.

And one more, i wouldn't downgrade the value of CRIT. I found it wierd, but due to new mechanics, each skill crit gives me rage almost equal or even more than i used to do the hit. oO?

btw. what do you think about this? http://wowtal.com/#k=DvF-lWtp.a7t.warrior.RxzB42

Pek
11-09-2010, 06:44 AM
Crit should not be giving you any more rage than a non crit white swing. From my personal testing (feel free to correct me with data if I'm wrong) rage for warriors is normalized at 15 rage per swing for 1 handers, and 30 rage per swing for 2 handers. My tests were done on the boss target dummy and no sorry, I don't have any screenshots or WoL parses to show atm.

Hopefully Colossus Smash does make Arms competitive with Fury come Cata, but it will still be a while until we all hit level 85, and start raiding, and only then will we see which specs require nerfs/buffs.

Overall I've used all our specs and very happy with the changes. Fury feels fun, prot is still sexy and Arms has potential to be sexy too. Hopefully Blizz shows us love at 85 and we can keep on topping meters :)

Squirrelnut
11-09-2010, 08:45 AM
Sigh @ comparisons being made by people who aren't even lvl 80 or are PvPers. Although you have every right to your comments they really have no bearing on end-game balance between Fury and Arms overall PvE DPS output on a boss like Heroic Saurfange or Heroic Festergut.

My one assertion at this point is simply: Arms is not viable for end-game PvE when compared with Fury at the same gear level =(

However, with that being said everyone's idea of "viable" is completely different. My personal view is that losing 2-8k DPS on any given fight = not viable, but someone else might think the DPS that I do is perfectly ok. The issue is the difference between the two not the numbers themselves. Wow is a game of balance, equal gear should result in equal performance based on player skill and the thing that bothers me is that Arms DOES NOT have equal performance with equal gear and equal skill when compared with its Fury counterpart.

Krays
11-09-2010, 10:19 AM
I dont understand this at all, im finding the complete opposite to be true to everyone here, for me my Arms dps is through the roof, routinely beating much better geared people and getting high dps without even trying as ARM's pve spec (even as arms pvp spec im doing great in pve), however when i try fury my dps is terribad comparatively.

Im still in Toc/t10badge (251) gear and so have no icc gear perhaps thats reason(i do have good weapon though, the pvp one)? i do however have t10 2 set, which really is helpful for arms as fury cant get deep wounds at all, i find it difficult to believe fury is the better dps since it lacks deepwounds and its fury is hurt more from lack of colossal smash imo as it has way more spare gcd then arms imo , with arms i have a move to press every gcd, but with fury i seem to have so many spare gcd were i have no move to press (is that not the case for the rest of you??).

Are the people who say arms is bad, are you sure you gave it a far try with correct gemming,glyphs, rotation etc? i havent reforged anything to mastery(dont find arms mastery useful tbh, only worth when the buff comes live imo) ( i have alot of haste my swing speed is like 2.2 self buffed, maybe down to 1.5 in fully buffed heroism situation, are the rest of you using this much haste or not?) yet even and i find arms great. Also i made my rotation so that I try to use my l to use LTS for the bigger move.

PS. Since im not doing dps in heroic iCC i assume, cause of the 30% buff in icc, that somehow makes fury better than arms (scaling issues i guess), but arms really is better in 5 mans and in low buff situations, honetsly :P.

silvach
11-09-2010, 10:40 AM
Yeap, when i hear people saying they respeced from belove Fury to try Arms without even trying to play a bit as one i have the feeling that something is not right.

Some of you say that there is no more "space" for slam in Arms rotation, thats completly not true. When fighting bosses i open with Charge/Rend/HS before MS if availible/OP/RS/Deadly Calm/HS/MS/Slam/OP and etc. there is always PLACE for free slam. We are waiting like 6 secs for OP proc, 3 seconds for HS proc and 4 secs for MS proc. Do it right and you have always place for some Slaming. Even better when Incite procs or Battle Trance.

When i hear you do like Charge/Rend/MS/OP/HS and all the way back i just think you lack something...

Arms is even better on big groups, since Sweeping Strikes become godly :) For HC's i will use blood and thunder just for outdpsing some aoers..

CRIT is one of most wanted for me coz of Wrecking Crew.

EDIT: maybe im not 80 yet, but i tryed this out: respeced Fury, took 2 heirlooms Axes, Crus and Fireweapon enchs, gemmed STR and fully glyphed. I did the fight with lvl 78 elite. Couldn't even get him to 50% HP with Fury. I thought is going to be easier coz of some godly healing procs but not. I respeced Arms and kicked the elite but hard. In the time he was 60% at fury i took him 80%hp as arms.

Maybe it's not Heroic ICC25 or something, but i can't imagine my DPS as fury is going to suddenly blow at 80. Cant find the reason it would.

Squirrelnut
11-09-2010, 11:02 AM
I dont understand this at all, im finding the complete opposite to be true to everyone here
Your impressions are based only on what you have seen which apparently does not include any end-game Fury Warriors. With no frame of reference then yes Arms might seem ok.


Im still in Toc/t10badge (251) gear and so have no icc gear perhaps thats reason?
Yes having bad gear would greatly skew the results that you see


with arms i have a move to press every gcd, but with fury i seem to have so many spare gcd were i have no move to press (is that not the case for the rest of you??).
I have very few free GCDs with nothing to press post 4x patch as Fury and I am almost never rage starved. Since Heroic Strike is no longer an on-next-swing ability the combination of HS, BT, RB with occasional (rare) Slam or WW in trash is pretty constant ability usage.


Are the people who say arms is bad, are you sure you gave it a far try with correct gemming,glyphs, rotation etc?
Not saying Arms is 'bad' I am saying that when comparing at an end-game level with equivalent gear and skill the output is substantially lower and unbalanced when compared with Fury in a PvE setting at lvl 80 (and yes I used the correct Arms PvE DPS spec, with hitcap 8%, exp cap 23 and fully reforged haste -> mastery)


arms really is better in 5 mans and in low buff situations, honetsly :P.
No, not even close

Everything you said is based on your personal experience with low end gear and lack of Fury experience. You stated that you thought it might just be ICC 30% related... well I happened to pug a normal 25m ToC recently when toying with Arms and have some parse numbers for you to consider:

Normal 25m Faction Champions (Arms Spec) #1 WoL parse: 10.1k effective DPS... and I was beaten by a meh Fury Warrior in the same raid who had worse gear (I have Shadowmourne).
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Crusaders%27_Coliseum/Faction_Champions_%28H%29/25N/Arms_Warrior/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6vvir0iqqtiyygq3/sum/damageDone/?s=1411&e=1694#Squirrelnut

Normal 25m Lord Jaraxxus (Arms Spec) #6 WoL parse: 12k effective DPS... and I was beaten by the pug Fury Warrior by over 2k DPS.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Crusaders%27_Coliseum/Lord_Jaraxxus/25N/Arms_Warrior/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6vvir0iqqtiyygq3/sum/damageDone/?s=953&e=1105#Squirrelnut

Normal 25m Twin Val'kyr (Arms Spec) #34 WoL parse: 15k effective DPS... and I was beaten by the pug Fury Warrior by 8k DPS
http://www.worldoflogs.com/rankings/players/Crusaders%27_Coliseum/Twin_Val%27kyr/25N/Arms_Warrior/
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/6vvir0iqqtiyygq3/sum/damageDone/?s=1931&e=2074#Squirrelnut

So with that stuff being said, I return to my prior statement that Arms output is poor when compared with Fury at equivalent end-game gear. If you enjoy Arms feel free to play it, especially if you are a lowbie or doing PvP or aren't in a guild trying to down Heroic LK. Arms is decent when you are just comparing with other melee and probably seems fine when doing 5m pugs. However, I simply can't justify using it when I know that personally I do 2-8K LESS DPS if I go Arms then if I go Fury.

Kazeyonoma
11-09-2010, 11:04 AM
if you're keeping up MS, HS, and OP, along with rend, I fail to see how you could possibly have free rage to be slamming, it's the lowest damage generating ability out there for arms right now, combined with the fact it pauses your white swing, and costs 20 rage, it just doesn't pay itself off. Yes during deadly calm, you blow it because you have nothing else to do once op and MS are on cd, but during the normal fight, I just don't see how you could be generating enough rage, to possibly keep up HS and SLAM along with the rest of your rotation.

Until you naysayers provide parses of you doing bad dps as fury, and better dps as arms, I'm going to just take your word with a grain of salt, because last night I dps'd as arms, and only got 10k dps out of it on heroic lk. Fury warriors are easily putting out more than that. I have a bigger feeling that your fury rotation is borked and that's why your dps is so shitty as fury and why you're convinced arms is better.

Nez
11-09-2010, 11:09 AM
I easily do 3k dps more as Fury over Arms with the same gear. The only differences being reforging mastery for Arms, and to cap hit for Fury. If you are trying fury with 8% hit, that might explain the differences you are seeing. I was really hoping Arms would be better after 4.0, but without CS it is really lacking in Rage gen and damage.

Squirrelnut
11-09-2010, 11:11 AM
FYI -- I am sad to be arguing that Arms is uncompetitive when compared with Fury, I would really prefer to be Arms if the output didn't blow =(

silvach
11-09-2010, 11:35 AM
Well, ok. I'll wait untill hitting 80 and gearing a bit. If you say it gives such difference then ok. I belive you.

About Slam and rage problems. You can keep it up for most of the fight. I don't seem to have a big rage problems. I use it every time Battle Trance procs (using HS then and got rage for free the Slam). Well maybe the rage income change as well at 80, dunno.

The worst in WoW is that you sometimes can't surpass some things. Each tree should be (not tank ofc) build both for pvp or pve and balanced to keep people play the game style they like and not beeing forced to change specs. I dislike Fury realy much, and i can't see me playing any raids with it. But as i hear here, there is noone who eventualy would take me to heroic icc with arms..

I hope colossus smash and some Cata math changes will change this.

Squirrelnut
11-09-2010, 11:38 AM
Arms still brings a buff if the raid doesn't have any huntards with the pet or anything else that brings it. Arms isn't worthless it just isn't comparable to Fury. If you really enjoy Arms a lot more keep at it as Cata will be here soon and everything will change.

Krays
11-09-2010, 02:48 PM
Arms still brings a buff if the raid doesn't have any huntards with the pet or anything else that brings it. Arms isn't worthless it just isn't comparable to Fury. If you really enjoy Arms a lot more keep at it as Cata will be here soon and everything will change.

(after reading your longer post just used this shorter one for the quote)
I see what you saying squirrel, but try without reforging to mastery one day for me please ( as seems to me all people saying arms is much worse used mastery reforging), and keep all that haste like i do, and see if that helped your arms dps,unless you saying you done that already and that was no good for you either.

PS, in your fury setup are you trying to reach white hit cap? I never did that when i tried fury.

Kazeyonoma
11-09-2010, 02:54 PM
yes white hit cap for fury, and i tried it without reforging, and my dps went up after i reforged to mastery.

silvach
11-09-2010, 02:57 PM
does the mastery opportunity strike gives rage?

Kazeyonoma
11-09-2010, 03:09 PM
don't believe so, no, so yes haste will grant rage, while mastery won't.

silvach
11-09-2010, 07:10 PM
So i wouln't go full mastery,i would say 50/50.

shiz98
11-09-2010, 10:13 PM
I see what you saying squirrel, but try without reforging to mastery one day for me please ( as seems to me all people saying arms is much worse used mastery reforging), and keep all that haste like i do, and see if that helped your arms dps,unless you saying you done that already and that was no good for you either.
With almost no mastery, and haste heavy, my Fury DPS is still significantly higher than my Arms DPS.

I really don't think it's competitive at this point. The big killer is the lack of Colossus Smash, which will likely prove to be a pretty huge DPS boost. Balancing the spec without CS is probably just too much work for too little gain for blizzard while we're in the in-between stage -- it makes sense if the spec is just left behind.

My guess, if you're trying to figure out how to gear optimally for better testing, is that you want haste until you can maintain a full rotation of Rend/OP/MS/HS, and then mastery. The stat is just not going to scale as well until you've got your main rotation happening smoothly.

silvach
11-11-2010, 02:22 AM
Guys,. guys, guys.... Not only Colossus Smash will be our DPS boost. But this as well:

Inner Rage Control Passive:

Whenever you achieve maximum Rage you enter a frenzied state, increasing damage caused by all abilities by 50% and increasing Rage cost by 50%. This effect is immediately cancelled when your Rage total drops below 76.

Imagine this + deadly calm :) Massiveee

I wonder if this stack with

Inner Rage
Instant
Usable when you have over 75 Rage to increase all damage you deal by 15% but increase the rage cost of all abilities by 50%. Lasts until cancelled.

Quietsch
11-11-2010, 04:15 AM
Cannot be used during Inner Rage.

silvach
11-11-2010, 06:44 AM
Yeah, but what with inner rage PASSIVE which tick every time u got 100 rage?

Quietsch
11-11-2010, 07:11 AM
the passive inner rage is gone since some (beta)patches.

silvach
11-11-2010, 07:33 AM
then again, Deadly cannot be used during inner rage, what about inner rage used during Deadly Calm?

Krays
11-11-2010, 07:42 AM
OK i have some more information to report about this. I usllay do 11k dps in voa on that ice boss ( i dont cleave either :P). That makes me top 3 dps most times. Thats why i thought arms was better than fury . yesterday i went voa again and this fury warrior was there,. For some reason my dps dropped down to 6k dps, made no freaking sense at all, and he was at 10.5k dps with slightly better gear than me. He then /w me (we know each other), that i should go fury as its better, ofc he thought was lieing when i told i usually do more dps !.

So anyway i went fury again to see whats what, i did the right thing aswell, this time and bought that hit trinket so i can get as much hit as possible. MY dps was exactly the same as arms, slightly more with dw activated slightly less without, which was a huge improvement to what i experienced during ptr, no word of lie on ptr my my fury dps was 3,3k dps on a 80 dummy not even boss level. Im starting to think there is a bug with arms dps, if a fury warrior is in raid, cause it made no freaking sense that i did only 7k dps, unless i somehow just made a pigs ear of my rotation that day arms can brutal if u make a mistake on rotation i guess.

Over next few days im going to start some serious testing as I am dual specced and geared for both arms and fury to a decent standard, il post back if I found anything different to what people have already said.

PS. i do reacll i was running my pvp arms spec during that voa, which lacks imp slam and incite (incite is onl proc based and k used imp slam during deadly calm along with), but does that explain a loss a 4k dp?? i dont think so, maybe 1k , but 4k is alot.

TomHuxley
11-11-2010, 10:43 AM
FWIW, on a training dummy, unbuffed, doing an Arms rotation I know quite well I was putting out 5500 or so DPS. Last night I took the time to reforge and regem my gear for Fury, got 27% hit and expertise capped (leaving me with a bit over 33% crit and a paltry 12.5% haste) and after 3 or 4 tries at the new rotation was pulling 7k unbuffed. With raid buffs on a fight like festergut or saurfang that would put me easily into the 5-digit DPS range. Given that I only have off-spec DPS loot from 10 man raiding I don't think that's half bad, and it's certainly a large improvement over Arms.

So yeah...given that my execution of the new rotation can only get better, I'd have to say that Arms isn't competitive right now if you have enough gear to cap hit and expertise while having some fair-to-middling stats left over.

jettzypher
11-11-2010, 12:02 PM
we know that. arms hasnt been competitive for quite some time now. as kaze said, we're missing CS which is gonna be a huge corner stone for the arms warrior. the only reason people really play arms anymore is they do alot of pvp or they just prefer the play style and dont necessarily need to worry about min/maxing.

TomHuxley
11-11-2010, 12:37 PM
My post was for the people who seem to not believe it.

silvach
11-11-2010, 03:51 PM
how possibyl u can do 5,5k dps with 264ilvl? I'm right now 180ilvl with loomed weapon and did 3,5k dps on Loken HC :P

So u telling me that getting better weapon and items will give me 2k dps boost?

Squirrelnut
11-11-2010, 04:00 PM
*puts arms in the closet till Colossus Smash*

sigh

silvach
11-11-2010, 07:10 PM
I couldnt belive he got like 5k dps with full geared Arms. And i still don't.

My iLvL is 194, got Heirloom Weapon, no expertise, 22%crit and 10%haste. Did 3,4k DPS on lv80 dummy and 3,5k 5m HC boss.

Now, if u telling me that you cant go more than 5,5 with full gear and caps i have this strange feeling that u lack some knowledge about rotation.

Not telling 3+ pulls when im doing 5 to 7k dps :)

Pek
11-11-2010, 09:12 PM
Silvach, I highly recommend you continue to get some more gear and post results vs lvl 83 boss level mobs. Saying you do this and that dps in a heroic and lvl 80 dummy is a completely different beast to a raid boss and raid setting.

silvach
11-11-2010, 09:23 PM
with no expertise, 2,6k dps on heroic dummy

woodyman
11-12-2010, 04:22 AM
last night in ICC me Arms DPS, a frost DK Dps and a Fury warrior
all of very similar gearing
i kept pace with them both single target as long as there was very little movement involved all doing around 7.5-9kdps
in movement fights the DK was top Fury second and Me third
on trash DK wiped the floor with everyone (31kdps in parts!!!!)

me an the fury where swapping places on dps charts the whole night
either way i think arms was still competative :)

woodyman
11-12-2010, 04:28 AM
if ur getting 6kdps on toravon with 264 gear ur doing something horribly wrong or rage starving IMO

Krays
11-12-2010, 05:40 AM
Arms is better in short fights, furys is better on longer fights, thats what i have found now, and this is why people who are doing 5 mans and stuff are saying arms is better and people who are doing those long azz raid bosse say fury is better. Fury seemed to have a ramp up time for me at least, where you have to get enrage going , and rage flowing in ( if bs is on cd, and sometimes even when it isnt, cleave and ww cost alot on trash), arms rotations is instant, as soon as you charge in.

PS i still havent found the cause of the low dps in voa that day, i still think there could be some bug, but for now im playing as fury so i get used to the play style, as after playing as arms fury feels weird and clunky :P

alos ionly just found out we only need 23 expertise now lol, so i can free up three stat points for something else :D

Quietsch
11-12-2010, 06:13 AM
You need 22.4 expertise, so 172 rating.

The ramp up time for both, arms and fury is nearly not existant. If you don't get enrage as fury, you pop berserker rage. If you don't get enrage as arms, you have 10% less damage for some time. Fury get's more rage, especially at the moment with hit hardcap and much haste.
Even in 5 mans you are on the same level with both, sometimes arms is better (mostly due to sweeping strikes + deadly calm), sometimes fury is better (if you can use the full deathwish duration). In Raids fury is much better if you have a little bit gear, so you can use HS more often than never.

Krays
11-12-2010, 09:19 AM
You need 22.4 expertise, so 172 rating.

The ramp up time for both, arms and fury is nearly not existant. If you don't get enrage as fury, you pop berserker rage. If you don't get enrage as arms, you have 10% less damage for some time. Fury get's more rage, especially at the moment with hit hardcap and much haste.
Even in 5 mans you are on the same level with both, sometimes arms is better (mostly due to sweeping strikes + deadly calm), sometimes fury is better (if you can use the full deathwish duration). In Raids fury is much better if you have a little bit gear, so you can use HS more often than never.


Yea i can agree with with what you said.

TomHuxley
11-12-2010, 12:15 PM
Silvach, I highly recommend you continue to get some more gear and post results vs lvl 83 boss level mobs. Saying you do this and that dps in a heroic and lvl 80 dummy is a completely different beast to a raid boss and raid setting.

Precisely. Also, FWIW the gear is almost entirely ilvl 251 stuff; I'm in a 10 man raiding guild and I always tank when I pug (main spec).

@Silvach, realize that raid buffs increase your DPS between 40%-80% or more depending on how good the synergy is between the buffs (i.e. a 25 man raid will almost always provide a larger increase, but by how much depends on class composition). Also, specific raid encounters play a large roll in determining how static level 83 training dummy DPS translates to real-world raid DPS.

You really need to compare apples to apples. After all, I can easily hit 15k on a trash pull if there's a lot of mobs and I can AOE them down. But that number is meaningless when it comes to what sort of numbers I'd put out on say a Sarth10 3d zerg (we did this a couple months ago before several upgrades and I put out around 8k dps at the time). Of course a fight like that has a larger amount of time with Heroism and cooldowns/trinkets going full throttle. I'm sure you'll figure it all out for yourself when you get to raid regularly with your warrior, but you might want to tone down the "I can't believe it you must not know what you're talking about" comments.

silvach
11-13-2010, 03:56 AM
Well i would recommned getting back to the topic :D

first of all, is Mastery such a DPS boost or not? Can some1 do some tests which is REALY better.

Mastery, haste or crit?

I know that u need haste to manage rage, but there are diff weapons with diff speed - question is what Swing Speed gives u enough rage to maintane MS>HS>OP rotation on all the time with some spare rage for Rend?

2nd. We know that HIT and Expertise is out of discussion. 8% and 23 Exp. But what about Crit? Is the 30% enough? I would say Crit is realy important for Arms coz of Impale and Incite.

And mastery. Additional swing. I don't want to know where is the hard cap which wont allow me to reforge for crit/haste but what point is considered to be best for DPS?

To summ this up. Does any1 can do hard math and ingame test to see what % of crit, haste and mastery i best combination for dps?

Quietsch
11-13-2010, 04:08 AM
every weapon gives you 6,5*spd rage, so it's of no matter what the weapon's speed is, at least for the rage generation...

silvach
11-13-2010, 04:15 AM
every swing gives 30 rage, so we need enough haste to swing with enough speed :P i just want to know the Min speed to maintance HS>MS>OP rotation

Quietsch
11-13-2010, 04:19 AM
....
Totally wrong.

Haste needed is 6,5*1,25*1,1*(1+haste%)+1/3=30/3+25/4,5+5/6+10/15
/e w/out the 1.1 if you have no WF/IIT
/e2 and as always, forgot one part of anger management...

silvach
11-13-2010, 04:35 AM
ah. i c

let me know if i do it wrong, but its like 8,93*(1+haste%)+0,33=17 yes?

so 8,93+8,93haste+0,33=17?

It's more like 6,5*3,8 is pure rage per swing, so (6,5*3,8)+(6,5*3,8)*0,25 per swing.

3,8 is weapon speed. So it gives 30,875 rage. Per swing with 3,8 wep speed.

Hs - Once Per 3 seconds
MS - once per 4 seconds
OP - once per 6 seconds

So for every 12 seconds u need 30*4+25*3+5*2=120+75+10=205 rage
With 30,875 rage per 3,8 second u get about 97,5 rage.

On 3 hits you get around 6 rage from Blood Frenzy.

Once per 3 secs u get 1 rage.

12 second fight = 106,5 rage without crits

I dunno how crit works

To manage generating 205 rage in 12 seconds u need to swing with with 1,9 speed.

30,875 rage per 1,9 seconds gives u 195+6+4 rage

So your haste should be massivle massive. About 50%.

I heard Crits does more rage (ofc white ones). About 60% more.

So with 30% Crit chance per 12 sec fight one hit should be crit. That means once u gonna get not 30 but 50rage.
So in normal 3,8 speed with 1 crit u get 30,875*2+50+6+4=120rage.

Still u need like massive haste.

Getting Real, if u have 3,0 speed with 3,8 weapon. You should crit 2 times per 12 seconds. Which gives 160 rage from pure swings.

getting from 3,8 to 3,0 needs 22% haste.

22% (17%, coz 5% u get from random dk/shammy buffs) haste 40% crit and you SHOULD be able to HS 3 times during 12 second fight. Ofc avarage


/// btw.

http://wowtal.com/#k=1ue5lKfe.a2y.warrior.

check it

TomHuxley
11-14-2010, 09:57 AM
White critical strikes no longer supply a larger amount of rage than normal hits.

Quietsch
11-14-2010, 10:54 AM
MS is once per 4.5 seconds
Your calculations are senseless if your fight isn't exactly 12 seconds.
If it should be as correct as mine (where i'm ignoring battle trance), it would be 30*4+25*4,5/12+5*2+10*12/15= ~204,66 rage.
You get exactly 97,5 rage out of whites, 20/3 out of battle shout, 4 from anger management and 24/3,8 out of blood frenzy.
So ~116,8 rage.
With more haste you get more rage out of whites and more blood frenzy procs.
12/3,8*30,875*haste%+24/3,8*haste% = 87,86
haste% = 0,846

Hasted weaponspeed is Wpnspd/((1+haste1)*(1+haste2)*(1+haste3))...
wf/iit grants 10% haste.

silvach
11-15-2010, 06:14 AM
Ok i did some testing.

My ilvl of gear is 226. Got 4 t10 set parts and lvl264 Wrathfull Sword.

20% crit, 24exp, 7,5%hit and 15%haste.

And I do 5,5k dps on Heroic Dummy. Not counting iv got ilvl 170 boots and ilvl 200 legs without any good trinket as well :) (im trying to get the trinket from frosts)

So som1 here said that with 261ilvl can't go more than 5,5k dps on Heroic dummy.. thats wierd.

So yeah, my nick is Crazytooth u can check it on europe armory, server Darksorrow.

And btw. top damage is HS for me.

silvach
11-21-2010, 09:22 AM
Helo back, so i did my first ICC today with the warr. 5,3k GS. Still in big need of good 2nd trinket and ring/neck.

It was 10m normal, counting 2 Priests, 2 Shammy, Paladin, 3 Druids, Mage and me.

Was using Flask of Endless Rage, without any fishfest and ect. Did 10k DPS on Saurfang. Only 5,9k gs mage did more DPS (12k) and DMG done than me.

On trash i did from 14 to 23k DPS leaving every1 far far behind me.

jettzypher
11-22-2010, 12:43 PM
ya. arms is great for lots of adds. pop sweeping strikes and use all aoe abilities.


but who's seen the nerfs they just tossed as us? shenanigans i say.

Nez
11-22-2010, 12:48 PM
They are balancing for L85, not L80. Wait till you hit L81, then it will get better.
:D

jettzypher
11-22-2010, 03:46 PM
i know thats the case, just hate seeing losses, no matter the reason.

Jothay
11-29-2010, 05:34 AM
In answer to the general question of whether Mastery is a decent stat for Arms or not, check out this RSV output from Rawr (yes, I'm the Arms Dev and this is as of right now's build).

RSV Chart: Note that this is an output, not how the gear is scored
8.27 Mastery
4.39 Hit Rating (toon is 4 rating below cap)
3.06 Strength
2.84 Expertise Rating (toon is 9 rating below dodge cap)
2.05 Crit Rating
1.58 Agility
1.38 Attack Power (1, not 2)
1.02 Haste Rating

Toon Stats are (wearing iLevel 372/T11 gear and fully raid buffed with food and pots):
112,312 Health
24,797 Armor
6762.3 Avg Strength (factoring procs, if any)
16223 Avg Attack Power (factoring procs, if any)
906.1 Avg Agility (factoring procs, if any)
16.90% Crit (895 Rating) (factoring procs, if any)
7.97% Hit (957 Rating) (factoring procs, if any)
5.68%|22.71 Expertise (682 Rating) (Human with a Mace weapon so +3=25.71 Expertise, 6.43% chance to be Dodged)
34.92% Haste (277 Rating) (factoring procs, if any)
83.36% Armor Penetration (Colossus Smash buff uptime, gogo Sudden Death)
20.44 Mastery (3,644 Rating, this is a 40.88% boost to SoO proc chance)

DPS is 30,988. The Break out is as follows

00,040 Shattering Throw (the damage from the hit)
02,140 Colossus Smash
01,582 Bladestorm
03,876 Mortal Strike (only counting above Exec phase)
01,620 Rend (Factoring Blood and Thunder refreshes, yes B&T is definitely a talent you want)
00,293 Thunder Clap
03,606 Taste for Blood (only the procs from the talent)
00,042 Overpower (only the procs that come from being dodged/parried)
07,521 Execute (only counting Exec phase)
00,073 Slam (only counting above Exec phase)
13,247 Strikes of Opportunity

02,307 Deep Wounds
00,747 Heroic Strike
00,050 Cleave (this toon has a breakout for sometimes having multiple targets)

03,453 White DPS

Kazeyonoma
11-29-2010, 06:02 PM
awesome info, and glad we can have ya around Jothay!

jettzypher
11-29-2010, 06:38 PM
so by that info im gonna say its safe to assume that mastery for arms is a big part of ones dps?

Kazeyonoma
11-29-2010, 06:45 PM
/bow /bow i rest my case, mastery, is god. woo! ;P

Eoika
11-29-2010, 06:52 PM
Well yes, you'd have to be fool to think otherwise. Remember how Windfury used to work? -flashback nostalgia-

Jothay
12-05-2010, 01:23 AM
Ok so, thanks to having posted it both here and on EJ.... I got a good source for why I was doing Mastery wrong. It was supposed to have an ICD of 0.5 sec. When I implemented that, Mastery dropped to just below Strength, where it should have been. Here is the updated post from EJ with better/newer numbers. Mind you Inner Rage is still wrong so DPS is inflated by about 5%. The point was also raised that my comment on BnT being so awesome would be jaded by MultiTargets uptime making Thunderclap, Rend and Bladestorm do more damage, so I included both numbers side by side.

I've generated a new example file and here are the new numbers with same spec as before:
(Multi|Single) Targets. Multi means about an 8% uptime of adds in the fight.

RSV Chart: Note that this is an output, not how the gear is scored
3.18|3.08 Hit Rating (toon is 10 rating below cap)
2.53|2.43 Strength
2.47|2.37 Mastery
2.28|2.20 Attack Power (2, not 1, this is just the doubling of the other one)
2.18|2.07 Expertise Rating (toon is 7 rating below dodge cap)
1.89|1.83 Crit Rating
1.46|1.41 Agility
1.14|1.10 Attack Power (1, not 2, which is how the chart actually looks at it)
0.60|0.58 Haste Rating

Toon Stats are (wearing iLevel 372/T11 gear and fully raid buffed with food and pots):
114,633|114,633 Health
25,196|25,196 Armor
7,476.6|7,467.5 Avg Strength (factoring procs, if any)
18,201|18,164 Avg Attack Power (factoring procs, if any)
726.6|726.6 Avg Agility (factoring procs, if any)
19.26%|19.26% Crit (1449.0|1449.0 Rating) (factoring procs, if any)
7.92%|7.92% Hit (951|951 Rating) (factoring procs, if any)
5.69%|22.78|5.69%|22.78 Expertise (684|684 Rating) (Human with a Sword weapon so +3=25.71|25.71 Expertise, 6.44%|6.44% chance to be Dodged)
40.28%|41.15% Haste (746|746 Rating) (factoring procs, if any)
64.20%|63.57% Armor Penetration (Colossus Smash buff uptime, gogo Sudden Death)
14.36|14.36 Mastery (2574.00|2574.00 Rating, this is a 28.7%|28.7% boost to SoO proc chance)

DPS is 26,508|25,361. The Break out is as follows
(These may not look like they add up to the total, it's a mixout between normal and exec phase, depending on the ability.)

0043|0042 Shattering Throw (the damage from the hit)
1589|1287 Colossus Smash
1630|1287 Bladestorm
4169|4108 Mortal Strike (only counting above Exec phase)
1771|1407 Rend (Factoring Blood and Thunder refreshes, yes B&T is definitely a talent you want)
0305|0241 Thunder Clap
4035|3993 Taste for Blood (only the procs from the talent)
0021|0020 Overpower (only the procs that come from being dodged/parried)
8731|8632 Execute (only counting Exec phase)
0095|0094 Slam (only counting above Exec phase)
6401|6153 Strikes of Opportunity

2260|2188 Deep Wounds
1003|1089 Heroic Strike
0067|0000 Cleave (this toon has a breakout for sometimes having multiple targets)

3667|3644 White DPS

With Multitargets on the BnT spec is providing 13,674.18 DPS benefit. While shifting those two points to Incite does only 11,445.12 DPS benefit. Difference of 2,229.06 DPS Benefit
With Multitargets off the BnT spec is providing 12,696.88 DPS benefit. While shifting those two points to Incite does only 10,796.23 DPS benefit. Difference of 1,900.65 DPS Benefit

Jothay
12-05-2010, 01:27 AM
If anyone wants me to try something weird with a special talent spec or something, I'm happy to try it out if I have time.

Krays
12-06-2010, 03:51 AM
Cant belive how low peoples crit has gone at 85.

Krenian
12-06-2010, 01:26 PM
It'll go back up.

It's just stat inflations, bout it. I wouldn't worry about it.

Nez
12-09-2010, 10:15 AM
Leveled as Arms, no problem-o. I'm one point shy of being able to run heroics right now, but hit and expertise, crit are seriously low in my blue quest gear and 2 JP items. I'm gemmed for hit, weapon chain and sitting at about 7%, expertise is around 8, crit it 6-7%. ><
I'm still using the theory at the beginning of this thread and my DPS seems to be very good compared to the groups I have been running. Even on Bosses. So I have hope for later on.
:D

jettzypher
12-11-2010, 12:54 PM
so jothay, a couple things. bare with me as ive been up sicne yesterday morning... how often were you using HS? doesnt look like it was a lot. seems the priority is on CS, OP, and MS correct? and from your last statement you say BnT is better than incite?*




thats what it reads inside my head, just want to be sure. thanks.

shiz98
12-11-2010, 01:41 PM
Topic needing clarification: should CS be used as soon as its available, or only used after the debuff falls off.

For example, I hit CS once. I then get a Sudden Death proc off that CS. Should I use it right away, even though the debuff still has a few seconds left (which effectively lowers MS usage), or should I wait for a better time, making sure to hit it only after CS has fallen off the target (this will still push back some MS usage, but not as much).

I'm leaning towards the former due to the sporadic nature of the procs. The arpen uptime should be better if you use it as frequently as possible.

CS is really the main interesting ability in the Arms rotation right now. It boosts the value of our mastery, and has a weird place in the rotation.

Thegreatme
12-11-2010, 01:46 PM
Topic needing clarification: should CS be used as soon as its available, or only used after the debuff falls off.


This is something that I have been wondering my self for a while now, though I have no clue how to accurately model it :(. once I get done with my fury guide and finals week and other things I plan on spending some time to see if I can figure this out.

Vossin
12-13-2010, 10:15 AM
Hello,

I haven't had a chance to get on my arms war yet but I was wondering how the rage gen is at 85, how heavy are you having to manage it? Thanks in advance.

Krenian
12-13-2010, 10:22 AM
It's touch and go at 85.

I'm having no problems doing my rotations unless I decide to go a lil Slam silly while waiting for my attacks to come off CD. Then I could kinda run into the problem of rage however most of the time using Heroic Strike here and there will resolve this.

It isn't so bad honestly. You should be fine so long as you hit your hit and expertise cap like you should. Will require a bit of tweaking around in the reforging area for sure, but I'm happy with what I got so far.

Vossin
12-13-2010, 12:22 PM
good to hear thanks!

marklar
12-13-2010, 03:17 PM
This is something that I have been wondering my self for a while now, though I have no clue how to accurately model it :(. once I get done with my fury guide and finals week and other things I plan on spending some time to see if I can figure this out.

this seems like a no-brainer, but please tell me if i'm missing something. CS by itself is one of our lowest damage and worst damage/rage attacks we have. on top of that, overlapping the debuffs would mean less overall CS uptime since the overlapped portion would go to waste.

i think it's much better to only use CS once the debuff has expired and focus on getting as many MS > OP combos in as possible.

Symph
12-14-2010, 09:41 AM
this seems like a no-brainer, but please tell me if i'm missing something. CS by itself is one of our lowest damage and worst damage/rage attacks we have. on top of that, overlapping the debuffs would mean less overall CS uptime since the overlapped portion would go to waste.

i think it's much better to only use CS once the debuff has expired and focus on getting as many MS > OP combos in as possible.
The problem with this is it's possible to lose an extra CS if you end up waiting for the CS debuff to fall off but get another SD proc. I'm sure the more haste you have the more beneficial it'll be to use CS as soon as SD procs, even if the debuff is still up. But at current gear levels, it's more beneficial to wait for the debuff to fall off.

On the topic of expertise, I wouldn't put it as a priority to cap it, and by priority I mean don't reforge or gem for it until later gear levels. Yes you do end up losing damage getting a dodge and having to use overpower, but the point is: you still get cheap damaging attack from a dodge. It's not nearly as important as it is for fury where a dodge can mean less rage generation (because overpower is so cheap, losing rage from a dodged attack isn't as big of a deal) and no damage at all on a dodge.

Quietsch
12-14-2010, 09:58 AM
A dodge grants exact the same amount of rage as a hit. Only miss doesn't grant any rage.
Capping dodge has the benefit of more Ltts, wrecking crew uptime, cs uptime, less 'wasted' gcds (, iirc less wasted rage, but not that much)
If you don't cap it, you get more ops.
expertise is at least much more important than before 4.0. If it's better than strength... we'll see. Even in those early gear levels you shouldn't undervalue it.

Symph
12-14-2010, 10:05 AM
A dodge grants exact the same amount of rage as a hit. Only miss doesn't grant any rage.
Capping dodge has the benefit of more Ltts, wrecking crew uptime, cs uptime, less 'wasted' gcds (, iirc less wasted rage, but not that much)
If you don't cap it, you get more ops.
expertise is at least much more important than before 4.0. If it's better than strength... we'll see. Even in those early gear levels you shouldn't undervalue it.
Ah right, I completely forgot about getting rage from dodges and that wrecking crew is mortal strike dependant now. It's definitely more important now, but I would be very surprised if it was better than strength or even crit or mastery, at certain gear levels at least.

marklar
12-14-2010, 02:41 PM
The problem with this is it's possible to lose an extra CS if you end up waiting for the CS debuff to fall off but get another SD proc.

it's only a 6% chance to proc SD per melee swing, and at most you'll get 2 swings in during CS, so the chance of missing a proc is small.
the chance of wasting some of the proc is 100% if you refresh it early.

Quietsch
12-14-2010, 03:02 PM
Melee hits. Not Autohit.

Symph
12-14-2010, 03:08 PM
it's only a 6% chance to proc SD per melee swing, and at most you'll get 2 swings in during CS, so the chance of missing a proc is small.
the chance of wasting some of the proc is 100% if you refresh it early.
Like the person above said, it's off ALL melee hits, including specials and your mastery proc.

From my combat log running tests earlier:

Symph's Colossus Smash hits Raider's Training Dummy for 4519 Physical.
Raider's Training Dummy is afflicted by Symph's Colossus Smash.
Symph's Opportunity Strike hits Raider's Training Dummy for 4558 Physical.
Symph gains Symph's Sudden Death.

marklar
12-15-2010, 04:40 PM
ok, still. CS is up for 6 seconds. you might get 2 white hits in and 4 yellow hits in. to really figure out what you're giving up, you'd have to do a statistical analysis of how many times it's likely that you'd get a CS proc within 6 seconds of another CS proc. figure out the average chance of that, and then use an estimated encounter length and you'll know how much CS time you're losing on average.

however, you then need to also quantify how much dps you are losing by using the proc right away if you didn't waste a proc, and then figure out how many times you would NOT have gotten a 2nd proc within 6 seconds over the encounter time. compare those two numbers and you'll have your answer.

without doing the math, but looking at the numbers, i'd be surprised if it's a dps gain to use it right away. remember that CS is a fairly wimpy attack. so let's say i use CS, then on my next special it procs again. if i use it right away, there is still 3 seconds left on the current CS, so i'm only gaining 3 seconds of CS uptime and i'm wasting an entire GCD (50% of the additional proc uptime) on a weak hit.

i don't worry about wasting SD procs for the same reason i didn't worry about wasting CD procs before; the opportunity cost is greater.
look at these two scenarios:
0.0 rend
1.5 CS
3.0 MS (CS proc)
4.5 LttS-OP
6.0 slam
7.5 CS
9.0 MS
10.5 LttS-OP
12.0 slam
13.5 CS ends - MS

during the CS uptime of 12 seconds, i got 2xMS, 2xLttS-OP, and 2xslam (best three abilities) during the CS buff, and i had 1xCS and 1xMS outside of the buff.

0.0 rend
1.5 CS
3.0 MS (CS procs)
4.5 CS
6.0 LttS-OP (missed the first OP proc)
7.5 MS
9.0 slam
10.5 CS ends - LttS-OP
12.0 MS
13.5 slam

now, during only 9 seconds of CS uptime, i got 2xMS, 1xLttS-OP, 1xslam, and 1xCS. i had 1xLttS-OP, 1xMS, and 1xslam outside the proc. this is much less damage than the first way in specials, plus 3 less seconds of CS uptime for white damage.

when the math plays out, i'm betting that waiting is the better way.

Kazeyonoma
12-16-2010, 11:44 AM
i'm the same, unlike execute however prior, it gave you a small window to fire off an execute while not at <20% health target, the procs now, just simply reset your cd on CS. that means as long as it procs somewhere between you firing off the CS, and CS coming off of CD, it'll be available. You should never hit CS if CS is still up, it wastes a GCD on a weak attack, and also lowers your overall effective usage of having CS. Who cares if it procs again and you didn't use it yet, if CS was still up and you were hitting for 100% it's going to be there when CS falls off, and you can hit it again.

I think it's possible there's a misunderstanding of how Sudden Death works for CS now?

Basically it should be like the first rotation marklar posted
0.0 rend
1.5 CS
3.0 MS
4.5 OP
6.0 Slam
rinse repeat from 0.0 skipping rend if it's still up, and only firing off CS if it's up (should be, but not 100% guaranteed).

priority is basically:
rend if not up -> CS if not up -> MS -> OP -> Slam

jettzypher
12-19-2010, 12:21 PM
anyone else having rage issues? not quite into heroics yet so the lower gear lvls could be the issue, but during 5mans i spend a few seconds during almost every pull where im starved.

Pek
12-19-2010, 03:23 PM
Yup and the rage issues are even worse (as far as I've noticed) as Fury. I've definitely had to chill out my button mashing. No doubt we'll be fine as we gear up more and get better combat stats.

I'll post a WoL next time I get to do some dps for fun in our 10 mans or if I'm farming orbs in guild heroic runs. Overall if I stick to the priority and don't over HS, I can stay up with the rest of the main spec dps.

jettzypher
12-19-2010, 08:42 PM
yah, i noticed that about fury as well. i was surprised to see that i was killing things faster as arms than as fury while leveling. did some reforging to up my hit and haste some. hopefully thatll help a bit.

Pek
12-20-2010, 02:27 AM
I finally have 2 Foe Reapers from Heroic Deadmines now so I'm tempted to give Fury a crack again. From what I've seen, all the main spec dps warriors are still Fury. Does anyone have any parses that they can link so we can see how they are travelling as Arms?

Pek
12-22-2010, 07:05 AM
Just did our first full night in Bastion of Twilight 10 man. I forgot to log the Halfus so only managed to log Valiona and Theralion. Here's the link: http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/fyzpiqqud59g4xs4/sum/damageDone/?enc=bosses

I am main spec prot and tanked Halfus, but for Val/Thera we had the prot pally tank and I dps'd. I began as Fury but felt really rage starved. Could possibly just be my play style, but swapped to Arms and felt much better. Even in a high movement fight like that it was fun.

Didn't use flasks and was sunder botting but had heaps of fun dpsing as Arms. Glyph of Colossus Smash is amazing for sunder maintenance. I also had Hurricane on my weapons due to Fury and I think I like it for Arms as well. Rage income was pretty nice, rarely starved myself.

Overall I'm pretty happy with how Arms went considering its my off spec and I raid lead so had to call out abilities. Would love to see more logs of other Arms dps.

TheBigApe
12-22-2010, 09:08 AM
Hello fellow warriors... been out of wow for a while...

still arms and loving it... but as i am at 85 and preparing for bigger things... just wanted to re-clarify the stats and caps..
seems many things have changed... and all the ArPen has been removed... lol...

so what are the stat soft caps and priorities in cata?

also seem to feel that many of the stats are very low at 85...
here's my armory...
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/silvermoon/bigape/advanced

thank you in advance for your help!

cheers!

jettzypher
12-22-2010, 02:01 PM
still want 8% hit. not sure if expertise is still unimportant or if you want to maximize that. if so then youd need 26 again to be undodgeable. alos, the corrected crit values cause it was so inflated by the end of wrath. so youre gonna be low in that department for awhile.

Kazeyonoma
12-22-2010, 04:19 PM
you want to hit the expertise dodge cap too because having an MS get dodged or a CS get dodged is going to be crushing to your dps now rather than before where a dodge just meant another OP. an OP without the lambs to slaughter buff, or CS up, doesn't hit for as hard as you'd like.

jugggernaut
12-22-2010, 10:11 PM
Hey,

Apologies if I am bringing back a 'dead' thread, but I took the time to search before posting my question in a new one. My question is: Is Arms competitive dps PvE? Is it only a PvP spec? I enjoy Arms, and I got excited to hear that it would be re vamped and somewhat useful again in Cata. Is there a link I can follow?

TheBigApe
12-23-2010, 07:21 AM
Kazeyonoma, thanks for the info...

so first is 8% hit
then 26 expertise?

and once these two are met, then next would be mastery?

jettzypher
12-23-2010, 04:52 PM
you want to hit the expertise dodge cap too because having an MS get dodged or a CS get dodged is going to be crushing to your dps now rather than before where a dodge just meant another OP. an OP without the lambs to slaughter buff, or CS up, doesn't hit for as hard as you'd like. quite true, didnt think about that.




i dont think we have the numbers yet to support either decision, but itd be either mastery or haste.