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Thegreatme
10-12-2010, 04:04 PM
Video guide:

updated on: 11/12/10

Spec:
glyphs are included in the above link
SMF is awful right now because there are no decent 1h weapons (except black bruise, but it's mainhand only)

Rotation:

in ideal circumstances (100% enrage effect uptime):
0.0 BT
1.5 RB
3.0 BT
4.5 instant slam (there is a 51% of having a slam proc to use for this GCD)
Repeat

always use BT on CD, use the other GCD's willy nilly while remembering RB> Slam. use HS when you have plenty of extra rage.

Sub 20% just spam execute, it hits way harder than any of our other abilities, and the 25% melee haste is amazing
also HS damage is currently way better than slam damage, so it might be viable to consider prioritizing HS over slam.

Rage generation:

essentially the rage formula is
(weapon constant)* (weapon speed) for your mainhand
0.5(weapon constant)*(weapon speed) for the offhand

STATS

Mastery:

Deathwish component:
per 1pt of mastery you gain 0.0626% extra damage from DW
DW has a CD of 144s with 2/2 intensify rage, and lasts 30s

30/144=20.83% uptime

0.626*.2083=0.013041% overall damage increase from DW

Enrage component:
per 1pt of mastery you gain 0.313% extra damage from enrage

I don't have an accurate value for an average enrage uptime, so per the % damage gain from enrage is this:

0.0313*X
X= uptime

it's a nice linear equation, if you can't visualize it just google an online graphing calculator.

this means that we can add the two together and simply say the value of mastery is

1pt= (0.0313*X+0.013041)*100 % DPS increase

PS. the above math is wildly inaccurate. it does not account for increasing RB damage and it doesn't account for a lot of things.

the spreadsheet is more accurate than the above equation.

Hit/haste:
get hit until you are hard capped (27%) then get haste.

hit is better than haste because of the fact that the 1% increase in swings granted by haste doesn't mean that you are going to have 1% more hits land on the target, where as getting 1% more hit does.

haste becomes devalued once you are hitting fast enough to generate enough rage so that you can fill the GCD table completely, and have 100%HSF

Expertise: Get 22 expertise, it's the new soft cap for dodges (GC says it's 23; if this is the case the last point of expertise is extremely devalued)

Crit:

Basically, crit results in a higher flurry uptime, which results in more attacks landing on the target, resulting in more possible changes for enrage procs, meaning more RB hits.

Ability Damage component:

2*c=a% damage increase
c% of your attacks deal 2x the damage

Flurry uptime:
1-(1-c)^n= b% flurry uptime
c: %crit
n: number of hits per 3 swings. n is commonly given a value of 4, but with the recent changes to the rotation it could be as high as 8 at times, I need to do a shit load of testing to figure out a good average value.

Strength: pretty much the same value as before

ENRAGE UPTIME:

=1-(1-.09)^hits/10sec

here's a graph of the above equation, plus the cutoffs for 1 standard deviation:

http://i55.tinypic.com/fwm2d0.jpg

the spreadsheet at the top of this post helps determine the hits/10sec.

Post your questions/corrections to the above info in this thread, I will probably update this thread 93 times within the next few days so check back often or something

Loganisis
10-12-2010, 06:35 PM
TGM - thanks :D

This is the type of budding theory and why that I am looking for!

Giles Deathstalker
10-12-2010, 08:17 PM
I am confused by what the hit cap is now. Is it still 8% or is it now 27%?

And if it is 27% for both arms and fury should we shoot for 27% cap cause that is what I am at right now but I had to lose haste on all my gear (that use to be arp) to hit the 27% haste cap and I also lost a fair bit of crit I had to give up on my 2 trinkets to ge to 27% hit.

SenatorS
10-12-2010, 08:57 PM
ya plz what should be the hit cap now ? i am using dual wheel

Toushiro
10-12-2010, 09:07 PM
Mister David, could you go over a SMF spec for us warriors that don't have great two-handers but have snagged threat sticks for tanking.

Thegreatme
10-12-2010, 09:24 PM
Execute spam is back.

after spending way too much time in front of a target dummy we get this:

for damage:
Execute>RB>BT>SLAM!

execute damage is stupidly high

more to come

I plan on using this log (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/siawcc4nshvdclnb/details/37/) as a starting point for determining enrage uptimes. you can also use this log to see how crazy high execute damage is right now.

Bowen
10-12-2010, 09:51 PM
Sorry if this is a silly question but I use Fury as my offspec, is whirlwind confined to only be used in AOE situations now ?

Thegreatme
10-12-2010, 10:22 PM
Sorry if this is a silly question but I use Fury as my offspec, is whirlwind confined to only be used in AOE situations now ?
pretty much. You could use it during a free GCD for single target if you are absolutely swimming in rage, but the likelyhood of that happening is pretty low.

doom1992
10-13-2010, 01:11 AM
Due to arms seemingly broken, and it costing so much to change gems for 2 months, untill cata comes out, I have decided to respec to fury untill cata comes out, which will be when arms is viable again, so I have done my research on fury rotations and gem choices on the PTR. I think that the best way to gem for fury, at the moment would be a fine balance between haste, mastery and strength. There seems to be enough crit on gear at the moment for you to get flurry most of the times, although the way I am geared, I have 51% crit unbuffed, so that might be different for other people. Bringing the swingtime as low as possible increases the uptime of enrage, which means raging blow, but also means increased damage with everything else. If this is coupled with a high mastery value, it will do some serious dps. However, not everyone can have 50% haste and 100s of mastery. Since haste is on wrath gear, I think it is best to gem for mastery, and have a perfect balance between haste and mastery, while maintaining a good crit chance. I think you can get away with gemming 10 str + another stat gems too in red sockets.

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 07:02 AM
alright, looking at the log from my previous posts

things that I notice:
enrage will not proc during Deathwish. this is probably due to the "a more powerful spell is already active" mechanic. even if it did proc during DW it wouldn't stack.

assuming my 40% enrage value is accurate, when i put that in to the equation in my original post, 1pt of mastery results in a 2.5561% DPS increase. Do not take this value as set in stone because the log I am using is me spamming execute, and because of the 25% melee haste I get from doing that, enrage up time is likely to be higher than average.

as for what to stats to reforge, I personally went with getting a ton of hit, but if I get time today before my guilds raid I will be spending more time in front of the target dummy and will try reforging to other stats and see if there is a change in DPS.

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 08:27 AM
k, I think I'm getting closer to a good crit model:
2.66(1+(0.09(0.75(1-(1-c)^n)))*(0.09(7/6+1/sMH+1/sOH)*t)-(0.09(7/6+1/sMH+1/sOH)*t))
c: crit chance
n: number of hits per 3 swings
s: normal swing speed, sMH is mainhand, sOH is offhand
t: time (fight duration)

breaking the parts down:

0.9(0.75(1-(1-c)^n)):
determines the increase in enrage procs. essentially it's flurry uptime* increased attackspeed*enrage proc chance

(0.9(7/6+1/s)*t):
assuming you use a perfect rotation and use HS on CD you will achieve 7/6 hits per second. BT= 1 hit per 3s (1/3) RB is 2 hits per 6s (1/3) HS is 1 hit per 3s (1/3) and Slam is 1 hit per 6s (1/6). then you add swing period in. this gives you hits per second, which you then multiply by enrages chance to proc and get your procs per second. then you multiply procs per second by the fight duration

the format is % increase of enrage procs times(*) procs per second minus (-) procs per second, then multiply (*) everything by 2.66 which is how many RB hits you gain per 10s of enrage uptime which is the amount

the result is the number of RB's gained by crit

I still have a ways to go but it's getting there

nserafini
10-13-2010, 08:35 AM
Still being " new " to fury, i've spec'd out to the 3/31/2 spec and set my %'s as below

27.09% Hit ( armory doesn't seem to support reforging yet ) so it says 24% before that is added in.

33.XX% Crit

21.XX Haste

Can you give the rotation you're using ? I'd be happy to help provide data in the coming days.

So far on the Dummies when I attack i'm seeing maybe 4500 DPS max; I assume it's my rotation that's way off

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bloodhoof&cn=Nixk

Bung
10-13-2010, 08:36 AM
Thegreatme, you are my hero. I'll be waiting eagerly to read what you have come up with pre-raid. Thank you!

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 08:47 AM
yea there is something majorly wrong with my equation. it's located in the procs/second area's and I don't have a fix for it right now, and I have to head to class now so if anyone thinks of a way to fix it, test it and post it.

-=Tuf=-
10-13-2010, 08:58 AM
yea there is something majorly wrong with my equation. it's located in the procs/second area's and I don't have a fix for it right now, and I have to head to class now so if anyone thinks of a way to fix it, test it and post it.

Just stopping by and saying thanks to Thegreatme and others taking the time out of their busy days to help some of us old timers out with equations etc etc. I'm to the age now that I just want to log in and smash then go to bed. THANKS for your time and hard work.

-T

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 09:47 AM
for those of you following my math, and trying to figure out what I am doing wrong, ignore most of the stuff I posted previously as it was designed around an infinite timescale, which I have currently given up on trying to do.

average hits per second with flurry being accounted for:

((7/6)+1/(1-(0.25(1-(1-c)^n))*sMH)+1/(1-(0.25(1-(1-c)^n))*sOH))

then we can find the chance of a proc not occurring during a given 1s period:
(1-.09)^ HPS = 0.91^HPS = 0.91^((7/6)+1/(1-(0.25(1-(1-c)^n))*sMH)+1/(1-(0.25(1-(1-c)^n))*sOH))

if this all makes sense to you then you probably know a couple different things that you can determine from this

and im off to class again.

Arlexyn
10-13-2010, 10:04 AM
I am confused by what the hit cap is now. Is it still 8% or is it now 27%?

And if it is 27% for both arms and fury should we shoot for 27% cap cause that is what I am at right now but I had to lose haste on all my gear (that use to be arp) to hit the 27% haste cap and I also lost a fair bit of crit I had to give up on my 2 trinkets to ge to 27% hit.

bump

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 11:01 AM
8% is the hit soft cap, any hit rating past that point will only affect your auto attacks.

DiabloRock
10-13-2010, 11:15 AM
I specced 3/31/2 last night, and spent significant time at the training dummies myself, and while I am getting roughly the same results as nserafini (4.5-5k dps, notwithstanding the Execute spam), my hit is 8.3%, my crit is 47.56%, and haste is 22.17; I'm getting roughly the same damage output but with significantly different stats. I haven't reforged or re-gemmed yet, so Mastery value is still default of 8. In heroic dungeons, dps output is slightly higher, but I find that my rotation frequently has a lot of downtime, either due to insufficient rage generation or talents on CD. For a toon that was pushing out 7-9k+ in heroics before the patch, this is a significant drop-off. Any concrete ideas to get those big numbers flying again?

Rotation: EX (when available)>RB>BT>Slam>HS (if swimming in rage and other talents on CD)

nserafini
10-13-2010, 11:40 AM
My gut tells me we're no longer ( at least for a while ) going to see the big fury numbers we were used to. It's the fact we're now more rage aware, and need to think if that next HS will really be worth it over waiting to RB or BT.

Until we get some love, or figure out a way to make crits bigger, the mages and s/priests will have all the fun.

DiabloRock
10-13-2010, 11:52 AM
So where are we raid-wise? I used to go to ICC because I could pull my weight in dps; I don't want to go now just because a buddy is willing to have the other classes carry the silly nerfed fury warrior.
And with practically every talent we have given a Rage cost of 30, rage awareness is definitely a must. I kinda feel like the rage costs need to be jacked down a little, but maybe that's just me pining for the good old days of "If it procs, pop it; if it's off CD, pop it; if you have extra rage, pop something else, and then pop it again for good measure." Though I admit, it feels weird to wait for a BT or RB and leave my warrior to his own auto-attack devices for a few seconds. I feel like that HS button calls my name.....

shiz98
10-13-2010, 12:29 PM
I'm modelling that RB bonus by calculating a % increase in enrage uptime, and multiplying that by a base RB DPS number to get the resulting DPS increase. Unfortunately, I need to get to class myself and can't finish it till later; I'll post my equations as soon as I've got something presentable.

Krenian
10-13-2010, 12:34 PM
Preliminary reports from all over are coming in and the prognosis is not good.

We've lost DPS. That's something we're going to have to deal with. The problem is that we lost a LOT of dps.

I'm hearing reports between 2k to 8k dps has been lost in some fights. Now, if this is because the rotation is new, everything is different and that we're still getting used to the whole kit and kaboodle, I don't know. But the fact that we lost a lot of AP as well as the fact that we're missing a skill to hit, Slam is too expensive for the damage it does for TG, the loss of Deep Wounds and the gist of it: Losing ArP which was so beneficial to us, is leaving us really really low on most charts.

Right now, casters are doing well. Melee are all suffering from the loss of ArP. That stat was a damaging stat as too many melee relied on it. At this point now, we're going to have to swallow our pill and come back to reality and realize that ArP really covered a lot of our weakness. That and the fact that one of our skills is replacing Whirlwind and it isn't hitting more than one person and isn't 100% active, and we're going to be losing a lot of our power dps.

Compound this with the change to Cleave that it has a 3 second cooldown, and our AoE is affected by a severe amount.

Those of us who can stay the course and wait for Cataclysm to come in will potentially be rewarded (However from what I've been hearing from the beta forums, Fury isn't doing much better right now either.)

All and all, it's going to be a tough two months to adjust. Better hold on to your seat.

Kazeyonoma
10-13-2010, 01:07 PM
by simply spec'ing into fury, you gain precision as part of "fury spec" you have 3/3 precision aka 3% hit right off the bat Kren.

Krenian
10-13-2010, 01:12 PM
by simply spec'ing into fury, you gain precision as part of "fury spec" you have 3/3 precision aka 3% hit right off the bat Kren.

By missing a skill to hit, I meant Colossal Smash, not Precision ;)

DiabloRock
10-13-2010, 01:13 PM
I agree with the forecast being very bleak for Fury dps. You mention Slam being expensive, but everything is now. Every talent we use (minus BT, which is still 20) has a rage cost of 30, and whatever they did to our rage generation isn't helping to keep us afloat. The Cleave CD bites, and the RB isn't what it's cracked up to be, as it's only active about 40% of the time, only hits a single mob, and has an outstandingly long CD of 6 seconds... Our primary dps talent has a 6 sec CD?!
The loss of ArP killed melee classes, but especially warriors, who lived and died by it until yesterday.
Now that warriors can't even stay competitive with the other dps classes, what use are we to a raid group? Even if you argue that we can provide buffs to the raid (+dmg as arms, +crit as fury), well, guess what? Those buffs can be had from other classes that will do significantly more dps now, making us obsolete.
I've heard that things might somewhat level out towards endgame Cata, but what do we do in the meantime? You mean that I can't get invited to a raid for the next 2 months because I can't provide competitive dps or a raid buff that no other class can?
For some reason, Blizzard seems to be prejudiced towards warrior dps. I get the distinct feeling they would prefer us to /delete and reroll pally, but I have sentimental attachment to my warrior, and by God, I want a fix. Any rumors of any fixes coming down the pike yet? Blizzard simply cannot ignore all the complaints from warriors on their forums; there's even a petition being signed for immediate action.
I pay good money every month to play a character I enjoy. Now they nerf that toon to the point of obsolescence and tell me that everything may or may not work itself out by the time I hit level 85 in two months' time? I'm not gonna go overboard like some people and say, "Oh, I'm gonna delete my toon, quit the game, etc", but there has to be a fix for warriors, and it needs to be on the very near horizon.

Krenian
10-13-2010, 01:20 PM
I agree with the forecast being very bleak for Fury dps. You mention Slam being expensive, but everything is now. Every talent we use (minus BT, which is still 20) has a rage cost of 30, and whatever they did to our rage generation isn't helping to keep us afloat. The Cleave CD bites, and the RB isn't what it's cracked up to be, as it's only active about 40% of the time, only hits a single mob, and has an outstandingly long CD of 6 seconds... Our primary dps talent has a 6 sec CD?!
The loss of ArP killed melee classes, but especially warriors, who lived and died by it until yesterday.
Now that warriors can't even stay competitive with the other dps classes, what use are we to a raid group? Even if you argue that we can provide buffs to the raid (+dmg as arms, +crit as fury), well, guess what? Those buffs can be had from other classes that will do significantly more dps now, making us obsolete.
I've heard that things might somewhat level out towards endgame Cata, but what do we do in the meantime? You mean that I can't get invited to a raid for the next 2 months because I can't provide competitive dps or a raid buff that no other class can?
For some reason, Blizzard seems to be prejudiced towards warrior dps. I get the distinct feeling they would prefer us to /delete and reroll pally, but I have sentimental attachment to my warrior, and by God, I want a fix. Any rumors of any fixes coming down the pike yet? Blizzard simply cannot ignore all the complaints from warriors on their forums; there's even a petition being signed for immediate action.
I pay good money every month to play a character I enjoy. Now they nerf that toon to the point of obsolescence and tell me that everything may or may not work itself out by the time I hit level 85 in two months' time? I'm not gonna go overboard like some people and say, "Oh, I'm gonna delete my toon, quit the game, etc", but there has to be a fix for warriors, and it needs to be on the very near horizon.

Calm yourself. Yes, it looks bleak. But Blizzard is not intentionally saying "Haha chakin n00bs, reroll or gtfo". Associating the changes with some ill tempered Blizzard members wanting to make our lives hell is not the way to go.

Right now, there are a few things that need to be looked at. But to say that it's doom and gloom and blaming Blizzard for wanting us to reroll is not the right way to go.

As a community, it is our duty to see what will happen and to try to convince Blizzard that it is nearly unplayable at this time. The problem is that it's going to be very hard:

1) Blizzard has stated that they are very well and aware of the situation that may arise with 4.0.1 and the skills and although it may be pretty bad, they are working it around the new Cataclysm game and as such, will not put much weight on the events in Wrath's final months to do anything different to the talents and skills, unless it is absolutely gamebreaking and mindboggling. At this time, I sincerely doubt Blizzard feels Fury Warriors cannot be played. We may have a rather dull rotation right now and the fact of the matter remains that our damage was pretty much neutered, however the class itself can hold it's own and not be completely broken and that leaves me skeptical of them fixing it.

2) We're missing out on some talents that we're supposed to have. Furthermore, we have pretty much come to a new era for Fury dps that will make us have to re-think everything we've thought about so far about DPSing as Fury Warriors. With this, we need to understand that there will be a lot of overreacting and "ACK THE WORLD IS FALLING!!!111one". Let us do the tests, let's see how it goes, and if we're at the point that it's simply unbearable, we'll have to address it with sound logic to Blizzard and let them see that it simply does not work.

Right now, it'll be hard however if we can show a lot of things to the point that it may affect Cataclysm dps scheme of things, then we may be looked at. But really, it's like I said: It's going to be a rough couple of months.

DiabloRock
10-13-2010, 01:32 PM
Okay, so now that we've gotten the bad stuff off our chests... Are there any concrete numbers-based things we can do to help stay relevant for the next couple months? I'm getting lots of conflicting reports on what stats should be, how to gem, etc. I don't wanna be atop dps charts again, I just want to stay close to competitive. Are there particular stats we can safely reduce to bump others and increase dps via reforge?

Ion
10-13-2010, 01:39 PM
By missing a skill to hit, I meant Colossal Smash, not Precision ;)

Colossus smash is a 20s cooldown for fury anyway. Not a big deal.

The bigger deal is that enrage lasts 9 seconds and the cooldown on raging blow is 6 seconds. You can extend your period of time spent enraged by creative use of zerker rage (which gives you 5 rage with the glyph...not great, but it's better than nothing), but lacking that 10% damage buff is decidedly unimpressive. It also doesn't help that our mastery is at best mediocre too...

What I did last night was regem for socket bonuses, basically. Gemmed a bunch of hit: 2x20 hit gems in my offhand, a bunch of str/hit gems in various other blue slots, and str/haste gems in previously-arp-gemmed yellow sockets (most of them)...put on the 245 hit trinket and the war token, too.

My rage gen was typically fairly ok (we did a toc10 (well...9) to get a better feel for things...but everything died to fast...maybe we'll do icc 10 to try more out later this week), but my dps was on the low side. Of course, our mage was doing completely absurd dps as was the hunter, while the dk, paladin (with smourne) and I struggled significantly below them...so it's kind of difficult to tell if it was our dps being low or theirs being way through the roof.

I had a fairly decent uptime on my ability to press Raging Blow, but my actual Enrage uptime was ... variable, I think. I honestly was still trying to get used to the rotation so it was tough to keep track of everything...if we do something more significant I'll try to remember to log it for better analysis. Anyway, I know I had to press Zerker rage not really on cooldown, but reasonably often if I wanted to be sure to keep Raging Blow on CD (or close to on CD)...it's got a 24 second CD with Intensify Rage...I probably hit it between every 24 to 40 seconds depending on my luck.

I feel like I did about as well as someone unfamiliar with how the new fury works could do, but my dps was still lacking (as was the DK's and the paladins, really) relative to what it was and relative to the mage and hunter in my group.

Also, I looked at TGM's enrage proc math...while it looks like it's right, it predicts a much higher uptime than I experienced. So either something is off with the math (which I don't see, but I will admit I didn't make a huge study of it) or something is off with the proc rate (which seems like it's certainly possible)...or I missed something (which is probably the most likely, unfortunately).

Krenian
10-13-2010, 01:46 PM
Colossus smash is a 20s cooldown for fury anyway. Not a big deal.

The bigger deal is that enrage lasts 9 seconds and the cooldown on raging blow is 6 seconds. You can extend your period of time spent enraged by creative use of zerker rage (which gives you 5 rage with the glyph...not great, but it's better than nothing), but lacking that 10% damage buff is decidedly unimpressive. It also doesn't help that our mastery is at best mediocre too...

What I did last night was regem for socket bonuses, basically. Gemmed a bunch of hit: 2x20 hit gems in my offhand, a bunch of str/hit gems in various other blue slots, and str/haste gems in previously-arp-gemmed yellow sockets (most of them)...put on the 245 hit trinket and the war token, too.

My rage gen was typically fairly ok (we did a toc10 (well...9) to get a better feel for things...but everything died to fast...maybe we'll do icc 10 to try more out later this week), but my dps was on the low side. Of course, our mage was doing completely absurd dps as was the hunter, while the dk, paladin (with smourne) and I struggled significantly below them...so it's kind of difficult to tell if it was our dps being low or theirs being way through the roof.

I had a fairly decent uptime on my ability to press Raging Blow, but my actual Enrage uptime was ... variable, I think. I honestly was still trying to get used to the rotation so it was tough to keep track of everything...if we do something more significant I'll try to remember to log it for better analysis. Anyway, I know I had to press Zerker rage not really on cooldown, but reasonably often if I wanted to be sure to keep Raging Blow on CD (or close to on CD)...it's got a 24 second CD with Intensify Rage...I probably hit it between every 24 to 40 seconds depending on my luck.

I feel like I did about as well as someone unfamiliar with how the new fury works could do, but my dps was still lacking (as was the DK's and the paladins, really) relative to what it was and relative to the mage and hunter in my group.

Also, I looked at TGM's enrage proc math...while it looks like it's right, it predicts a much higher uptime than I experienced. So either something is off with the math (which I don't see, but I will admit I didn't make a huge study of it) or something is off with the proc rate (which seems like it's certainly possible)...or I missed something (which is probably the most likely, unfortunately).

The damage of Colossal smash isn't the real kicker for that one. It's it's effect of allowing attacks to go through all the armor for six seconds that'll give us a significant boost in our DPS. It's our 100% ArP that disappeared due to the change.

But yeah, Raging Blow kinda sucks right now. It's too cumbersome in my opinion.

Ronninn
10-13-2010, 01:50 PM
I think 2 good places for Blizz to start are : 1st buff Raging Blow. 2nd put Deep Wounds on tier 1 of Arms tree so we can at least have that back and benifit from our 2 piece Tier 10 bonus.

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 03:49 PM
ladies and gentlemen, I think I found the winner.

this equation is no longer focused on just crit's effect. basically it determines the % likely hood that enrage will be active for any given second.

step 1)hits per second

auto attacks:
((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))

special attacks
assuming a perfect rotation you would add 7/6 to the above equation, when I am not in a rush to figure everything ever out I will go back and break this part down so it be more accurate

Step 2) chance to proc:
chance to not get any procs:
0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))

Chance to get a proc:
1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))

step 3) dealing with overlaps/ refreshes:

to do this we need to determine the how likely it is that for each given second enrage will be active with X time remaining. so basically, it's chance to proc (0s) + chance duration will be at 9s, 8s, 7s, 6s, 5s, 4s, 3s, 2s, and 1s.

1s left
1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) + (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^8

2s left
1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) + (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^7

you get the idea, the exponent at the very end changes.

EDIT: I figured it out, it's additive.

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 04:35 PM
I suggest you stop reading now unless you are really masochistic.

% likelyhood of enrage being up at any given second:
(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^8)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^7)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^6) + (1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^5)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^4)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^3)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^2)

I warned you.

Chamenas
10-13-2010, 04:36 PM
What the freaking hell?

Thegreatme
10-13-2010, 04:37 PM
it's basically the same thing repeated 9 times, with a single number changing for each repetition, but you can't simplfy it because that's how exponents work :P

Krenian
10-13-2010, 05:14 PM
Why do you even do this math is beyond me. That's a headcase no one but math fucking physics understand.

Ion
10-13-2010, 05:28 PM
Ah...I've done some maths...they're sketchy, I think...but I think they're simpler:

Basically the interesting things are: Your average swings per second (swings per second for your main hand + swings per second for your offhand) which is just 1/sMH + 1/sOH, where your s values are modified by your average flurry uptime (1-(1-c)^n from above).

I used a slightly higher n (4.76 to be specific...I can explain how I came up with that but it's kind of circular logic...you can use 4 if you want), figured out my average swings per 9 seconds (adding in 5 globals...which MIGHT be sketchy since it's potentially dubious that we'll actually have an attack to do on all 5 of those globals (though 4 should be almost certain: 2xBT + 2xRB)), then it's fairly simple to figure out your chance to not proc enrage in those 9 seconds (it's as above in TGM's formula...ish: 0.91^<num swings+globals>)...subtract that from 1 to get your Enrage uptime (mine turned out to be roughly 70%, which meshes reasonably well with what I actually observed).

Specific formula are ... well I'm in a bit of a rush and I did it in a spreadsheet...but they're mostly known formula.

Edit: Also modified the "swings in 9 seconds" number by my white hit rate for additional accuracy...just thought I'd make note of that, too.

-=Tuf=-
10-14-2010, 07:12 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27187856197/class-balance-as-of-oct-13-2010/

I found that wandering around - I'm not sure if its legit or someones re-write;

Rather than try and address multiple threads, I'm just going to plop our current thoughts in this one post. Please excuse the brevity.

1) We think Fury, Arms, Feral cat and Retribution dps is too low and we will be buffing them.

2) We think mage dps is too high, especially Fire, and will be nerfing it.

3) We think Shadow priest dps is too high, but that's largely a result of Shadow Word: Death spam, which is tough on healers. We'll be fixing that.

4) We think Destro warlock dps is too high, but that's largely a result of Searing Pain spam, which is tough on tanks. We'll be fixing that.

5) As we suspected, PvP dps is just too high given that the health pools of Cataclysm haven't kicked in yet. While competitive PvP is over for the moment, we still want the environment to feel better so we will be buffing resilience. This change might be reverted at level 85.

There will probably be more changes after another night of raiding and BGs. Many of the bug fixes we have made today will affect dps as well. Stay tuned.

As a side note, regardless of changes to come or not; What are Fury Wars gemming now? I have seen people say to go for Hard Cap of Hit asap, then gem all STR. Some say go straight STR no matter your hit, and still others claim 50% crit is your goal then fill in the rest with Hit.

Thanks for input.

-T

Krenian
10-14-2010, 07:30 AM
http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27187856197/class-balance-as-of-oct-13-2010/

I found that wandering around - I'm not sure if its legit or someones re-write;

As a side note, regardless of changes to come or not; What are Fury Wars gemming now? I have seen people say to go for Hard Cap of Hit asap, then gem all STR. Some say go straight STR no matter your hit, and still others claim 50% crit is your goal then fill in the rest with Hit.

Thanks for input.

-T

The general consensus is that there is NO consensus. That's the problem.

I've been going and socketing per color. We now have three viable choices when socketing:

Red: Bold Cardinal Ruby (+20 Str)
Yellow: Inscribed Amatrine (10 Str and 10 Crit)
Blue: Etched Dreadstone (10 Str and 10 Hit)

That's pretty much what you wanna go do for now till you're hit capped. Then the blue one changes.

-=Tuf=-
10-14-2010, 07:38 AM
I think I will just roll Prot for now until the dust settles, haha.

I did find the actual Blue Response on the BLizzard Forums; http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27187856197&sid=1

At least we are getting looked at, and with the servers down atm, maybe things will be brighter sooner rather then later.

-T

defjam
10-14-2010, 07:50 AM
i do have my ilvl 245 trinket in my bank (+128 hit) , my question would be which should i replace? DBW or WFS?

and how do you reforge haste to hit? do i go see npc near the forges (capital cities) or something?

and yes, if you think i'm noob for asking question # 2 - go ahead....i've spent the last 18 hours trying to get my game fixed due to massive problems with downloader, patch and etc etc...and then when i did get the patcher fixed, i spent another 5 to 6 hours downloading and intalling the patch...i'm one tired dps warrior at work today...

also from what i read - once your hit capped or close to it, you should re-gem to +Str gems mostly? correct??

I also have ? for weapons..we are going to ICC25 tonight - Citadel would be a real darn good pickup wouldn't it (I have Byntroll and Blade of Ramaladhani (Saurfang axe)...but some other weapon options could be Cryptmaker and Warmace of Menethial would be good, correct?

sorry for the long post..

Loganisis
10-14-2010, 07:51 AM
TGM - Haste / Hit.

Wouldn't Hit > Haste be greater for the same reason that Armor > Avoidance in 3.3.5 - in that it makes rage generation more consistent.

Over 1000 seconds of attacks the end result may be the same, but since you have to hit to generate rage, going hit before haste would result in smoother rage generation with fewer GCDs with insufficent rage due to miss strings?

Or does haste not just increase the number of swings per X seconds (faster swing timer) but also increase the amount of rage increased? Sorry, I don't fully understand haste in 4.0.1.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 10:40 AM
what you just said gave me the answer.

haste increases the number of swings that go out on the target, hit increases the number of swings that land on the target. for each 1% haste you gain, those 1% more swings can still miss, meaning there will be <1% hits actually landing on the target.

Hit> Haste, but not by a whole lot.

Krenian
10-14-2010, 10:59 AM
what you just said gave me the answer.

haste increases the number of swings that go out on the target, hit increases the number of swings that land on the target. for each 1% haste you gain, those 1% more swings can still miss, meaning there will be <1% hits actually landing on the target.

Hit> Haste, but not by a whole lot.

I seem to have recalled telling you this. Hrm! Guess the old man does know what he's speaking about huh? Lulz.

shiz98
10-14-2010, 11:03 AM
TGM, can't you simplify that gargantuan equation by just doing

chance_to_be_enraged = (1-0.09)^HPS

If your rage uptime is 70%, then shouldn't any one second have a 70% chance of seeing you enraged? Or am I missing something here... I kinda skipped breaking that equation down :P

Kamiell
10-14-2010, 11:03 AM
Hi, I been following this post and all others i can find and since im a loyal fan of TGM since BC and its work wanted to say thank you for the time you give to solve this problems and stuff. That said I wanted to se if if i should give up some haste to get more hit even thow im at 9% atm or should i try to get more mastery wich is at 15% atm for me. Here is the link to my warrior which i consider to have decent gear overall. Any feed back if you see a flaw or if there is anything i can do to improve it is most welcome. I went from 14kish to 6kish after patch and I do understand the reasons and i know we gona get some kind of fix soon, but would like ti hear some opinions. Just keep in mind that reforging do not show in armory atm. So quick stats unbufed are 9% hit 49% crit 27 exp 20% haste 15% mastery.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Feathermoon&cn=Kamiell

my rotation at the moment is BT - RB - Instant slam (repeat) and HS when i have enought rage which is getting hard to maintain atm for me. I took WW and cleave out for now since it seems i rage starve when i do use them and dont see the numbers I used to see before patch. Also noticed Slam has gotten very very weak not sure if its something im doing or what.

But thanks all for your time and insight. Have a good one all and remember warriors always pull it through the bad nerfs one way or another!

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 11:09 AM
TGM, can't you simplify that gargantuan equation by just doing

chance_to_be_enraged = (1-0.09)^HPS
If your rage uptime is 70%, then shouldn't any one second have a 70% chance of seeing you enraged? Or am I missing something here... I kinda skipped breaking that equation down :P
Doing that would tell you your chance to proc enrage at any given second, but because it does not account for the possible procs from the previous 9 seconds it will not accurately tell you the chance you will be enraged at any given second

also,
@kamiell

I wasn't doing anything related to theorycrafting or guide making in BC, so how did you know about me?

EDIT:
explanation of why my formula is so long:

the format in and of it's self is long because it calculates for hits/sec accounting for flurry uptimes and all that jazz. it's going to get longer once I fix the special attack hits/sec part of it so it can account for slam usage properly and what not.

the formula it's self is basically 10 repetitions of it's self because at any given second there are different durations that Enrage could be.

to figure out the likelyhood of enrage being on it's last 1s for a given second it's basically (chance to proc) * (chance to not proc)^8

why ^8?
because essentially the equation is calculating the odds of this outcome when looking at T:

T-9: PROC
T-8:NO PROC
T-7:NO PROC
T-6:NO PROC
T-5:NO PROC
T-4:NO PROC
T-3:NO PROC
T-2:NO PROC
T-1:NO PROC
T: enrage has 1 second left at the start of this second and fades at the end of this second.

the rest of this equation follows this same concept and the only number that changes is the exponent on the end of the chance to not proc because you only need to look as far back as the most recent proc. a

Loganisis
10-14-2010, 11:30 AM
what you just said gave me the answer.

haste increases the number of swings that go out on the target, hit increases the number of swings that land on the target. for each 1% haste you gain, those 1% more swings can still miss, meaning there will be <1% hits actually landing on the target.

Hit> Haste, but not by a whole lot.

To build on this a little: Assuming a base weapon swing timer of 3.5 seconds and a hit rate of 80%, what is the difference between 1% haste (3.465 swing timer) and an 81% hit rate. (Assuming no dodge/parry because of positioning and adequate expertise)

I chose 10,000 seconds as the timer just to get numbers that were large enough to see the difference. 10,000 seconds is 166 minutes, 40 seconds, so it's obviously unrealistic, but it hightlights the difference and proves TGM's comment Hit > Haste, but not by a whole lot.

1% more hit: 10000s / 3.5 = 2857.143 swings * .81% hit = 2314.286 hits
1% more haste: 10000s / 3.465 = 2886.003 swings * .80% hit = 2308.802 hits.

That's a difference of less than 6 hits landed, if my math is correct, over 166 minutes and 40 seconds or something stupidly small, which is expected.

The difference between 2 white misses in a row, which is a bigger impact on a 'real' fight would be:

1% more hit .19 * .19 = 0.0361 probablity of 2 misses in a row, or 3.61% chance of a dual miss string
1% more haste .20 * .20 = 0.0400 probablity of 2 misses in a row, or 4.00% chance of a dual miss string

This would mean that there's a slightly greater DPS output of each 1% of hit >1% of haste, if it costs the same rating. I don't know the fine details - if there are diminishing returns or not for either and what the trade off is.

The trade off is slight enough that if you need fewer rating points to get 1% haste than 1% hit, then haste would be greater as long as you reach a point where you're comfortable with bad miss strings?

Ion
10-14-2010, 11:33 AM
Some definitions:

c = crit chance
sMH = character sheet main hand speed (includes gear haste, but not flurry)
sOH = character sheet off-hand speed (includes gear haste, but not flurry)
h = white hit percentage
n = 3*h+2 (assuming that our time to 3 swings is > 2 globals worth, see below)

average main hand swings per second (spsMH) = 1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))
average off-hand swings per second (spsOH) = 1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))
total average swings per second (sps) = spsMH + spsOH = (1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))) + (1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n)))))

average time to 3 swings (tt3s) = 3/sps = 3/((1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))) + (1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))))
- if this is > 3 seconds (which it almost certainly will be if you're titan's grip), then your + for n is 2, if it's less than it'll be 1...if it's really close to 3 seconds, you might consider using 1 as well (that's certainly possible...mine is close enough that it's somewhat sketchy to use 2). Basically it'd be n = 3*h+floor(3/((1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))) + (1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))))/1.5)...which is, of course, somewhat circular logic...and a vast oversimplification, probably.

average swings in 9 seconds = (9*sps)+5 = (9*((1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))) + (1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n)))))))+5
- This is assuming you can use 5 globals in those 9 seconds...if you were playing perfectly, got lucky with procs and had no latency you'd be able to do 6, but I'm sort of assuming here that at least one of those is probably not going to happen.

Chance to not proc enrage in 9 seconds = 0.91^((9*((1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))) + (1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n)))))))+5)

Enrage uptime = 1-(0.91^((9*((1/(sMH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n))))) + (1/(sOH*(1-(0.25*(1-(1-c)^n)))))))+5))

Unless I've missed something, that should be a reasonably accurate way of figuring it out. Obviously there's some fudge factor involved in that...especially in the value of n and the swings in 9 second calculation.

...I've forgotten why I was trying to find that out. AH HA...the OP:

1pt= (0.0313*X+0.013041)*100 % DPS increase

Where X is the enrage uptime. For me that worked out to 0.7073, so:

0.0313*0.7073+0.013041 ~= 0.03518

So a 3.5% dps increase...that seems like a lot, doesn't it?

Death Wish has a 30/144 = 20.83% uptime (as stated), each point in mastery increases its bonus damage by 3.13%, so increases your damage by 0.00626 * uptime = 0.0013041 (or 0.13041%).

Enrage can only be up during the 114 seconds that Death Wish isn't up (or, rather, can only be usefully up, since they don't stack...I'm not sure if it doesn't proc during Death Wish or not, but it's not relevant), so it can only have a maximum uptime of 79.17%. Of THAT, it has (for me) a 70.73% uptime (which works out to about 56% total). The actual damage increase is 0.00313 for each point, times the uptime so 0.001752 (or 0.1752%) for me.

Adding those up is: 0.0013041+0.001752 = 0.0030561 or about 0.3% of a dps increase...which seems much more reasonable.

The only thing remaining is just to determine how much mastery rating = 1 point of mastery.

Anyone?

Bung
10-14-2010, 11:42 AM
You math guys are giving me a headache. Speak in lamens terms like "I tested this on the dummy....here is what you do". Should I change all of my haste to hit to get to 27%? This just feels plain weird to me. Why didn't blizz just replace armor pen with hit on gear?

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 11:46 AM
math explains why you got the results you observed on the target dummy, and therefore allow you to make accurate predictions about the DPS values of each stat, which you can then use to tell you "what to do"

Bung
10-14-2010, 11:49 AM
I do appreciate what you are doing, don't get me wrong. I would like to know based on your math the correct way to balance out my stats as of today.

Ion
10-14-2010, 11:50 AM
Well...it looks like "don't use mastery" is the only definitive answer so far (for fury)...hit seems slightly better than haste but how that relates to crit is unexplained so far.

Krenian
10-14-2010, 11:50 AM
I do appreciate what you are doing, don't get me wrong. I would like to know based on your math the correct way to balance out my stats as of today.

You must understand that the patch is relatively new and the information is still being processed right now. That's why they're throwing the math numbers out like this, so when they are ready, then cay say "This is what you wanna do."

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 11:51 AM
str> hit> haste>crit>mastery
crit might be ahead of haste but that's pretty dependent on what you determine to be your hits per 3 swings

Kamiell
10-14-2010, 11:52 AM
@TGM

I started playing way far into BC might not sure when i fisrt found your vids and guides but been using them ever since, (at least a couple of years it seems to me) the point is I love the work you done and how good it is. thats all.

On another Note blizzard said wars got fixed last night im testing my war and not finding any big diference anyone can colaborate? Thanks

Bung
10-14-2010, 11:52 AM
Ok. I will have to be patient then...sigh. I really felt like such a master of things a week ago. This feeling has me all upset. I'm glad you masters of numbers are working on this because imo the whole fury warrior community needs some definitive answers. Prot too from what I've seen. I know the patch is new but don't fury warriors who played on the PTR know things ahead of patches like this?

Krenian
10-14-2010, 11:53 AM
str> hit> haste>crit>mastery
crit might be ahead of haste but that's pretty dependent on what you determine to be your hits per 3 swings

Does crit give you more rage? I could have sworn that they said that this isn't the case anymore and it's just damage. If that's the case, haste would most likely trump crit on the fact that it gets you more swings in to hit more often to get more rage to activate your skills.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 11:54 AM
Ok. I will have to be patient then...sigh. I really felt like such a master of things a week ago. This feeling has me all upset. I'm glad you masters of numbers are working on this because imo the whole fury warrior community needs some definitive answers. Prot too from what I've seen.
which exactly how I felt before I picked up a calculator and started playing with numbers. anyone can do this math it's just whether you are willing to spend the time to do it and whether you are willing to learn the patterns. lots of advil helps too.

as far as the hotfix is concerned I noticed about a 1k DPS increase on the boss target dummy from yesterday to today.

Ion
10-14-2010, 11:55 AM
CRAP. I left out raging blow (which requires you to be enraged to use, so is affected by mastery).

So mastery is slightly better than I said above. But let's assume that RB is ... something big: 25% of your dps.

Which means that 0.0313 * 0.25 is the additional value of mastery for RB, or 0.007825.

Add that to the old 0.0030561...and suddenly that's not ass, actually...about 1%.

So...dammit...how much of our DPS is actually Raging blow?

Krenian
10-14-2010, 11:56 AM
Lemme find a parsing from top dps warriors and get back to you on that one..

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 12:00 PM
Ion with my long formula I would think you should be able to take the likelyhood of being enraged at a given second and then divide it by 6, which would tell you the likely hood of being enraged when RB comes off CD. unfortunately this doesn't account for when RB is off CD and you are waiting to be enraged.

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 12:05 PM
you can also just use the ability damage formula to determine it's exact DPS. which would be 1.25((((ap/14)*3.3+dMH) + 0.9375(((ap/14)*3.3+dOH))) there's other DIM's to multiply the whole thing by but you get the idea

Krenian
10-14-2010, 12:08 PM
Seems like you can look anywhere between 9 to 11% of your damage being RB at this time. Give or take.

Ion
10-14-2010, 12:14 PM
Being Enraged isn't the only way to ... be enraged.

Crap.

Well having Enrage up isn't the only way to have Raging Blow available to you (Death Wish obviously works, as does Berserker Rage)...so you might need to waste a global in there to pop another enrage, but honestly, it's got a pretty high usable-time...maybe not quite 100%, but it's pretty close.

And the actual dps done doesn't really help determine the % increase of mastery...sort of. Similar, but not immediately usable...and based on some of the parses I'm looking at it's NOWHERE NEAR 25% of our dps...I've seen as low as 7% and as high as 11%. I THINK I saw it as more than that on mine, but even if it was 15% it'd still be a bad stat...it basically needs to be 25% of our dps just to be close to decent (I THINK mastery is less points-per-rating than hit and haste), and even then it's not good.

shiz98
10-14-2010, 01:24 PM
Doing that would tell you your chance to proc enrage at any given second, but because it does not account for the possible procs from the previous 9 seconds it will not accurately tell you the chance you will be enraged at any given second
Durr, I wrote down the wrong equation. You're absolutely right (well, sorta -- that equation is actually odds of not proccing enrage in a given second, to be pedantic).

uptime = 1 - (0.91 ^ (HPS*9))

Which is your chance to proc enrage within a 9 second window, which is subsequently your uptime. So with, say, 1.33 hits per second we'd get a 68% uptime.

Basically, you're calculating enrage over a 9s window sliding at 1s intervals, which is exactly what you need to calculate enrage uptime.

0s-----1s-----2s-----3s.....9s = 9s
12% 12% 12% 12%....12% = (1-0.88^9) = (1-0.91^11.97)

Biocore
10-14-2010, 03:28 PM
I don't know if its mentioned already or maybe its a bug but during my testing I recognized even recklesness leads to enrage.Maybe it was just luck because when I hit the button maybe a whitehit procced it. Gotta check this again. ^^

Ion
10-14-2010, 03:30 PM
It procs Enrage or counts as an enrage for purposes of using Raging Blow?

Thegreatme
10-14-2010, 03:39 PM
It counts as an enrage

Ion
10-14-2010, 03:51 PM
Yeah...but it looks like he's saying it also auto-procs the talent Enrage...I can't honestly say I paid any attention. I expect that if it does it's not intended anyway.

Morbíd-Zul'jin
10-14-2010, 10:18 PM
3-31-2 fury build

might wanna see about changing rotation around. (i know its goofy) i switched mine to:

attack>berserker rage>HS>BT>WW> BT repeat
alternating DW and recklessness to keep one up
throwing in any RB,Slam,Pummel and i can squeeze in
I have been keeping rage up by alternating Battle shout and berserker rage in rotations to keep rage up as needed and when they allow. (just a little rage starved right now)

(reforged)mastery-14.01...hit-252...haste-540..crit at 42.88%(with battle shout).
str is 2189 (w/battleshout) agility-435...attackpower-4845
4 piece T10 set bonus (all 251 pieces except 264 pants) and 264 vendor chest

dps on boss dummy I saw 5-6k dps...(occasionally 7k). Heroic strike crits every swing, and slam and RB are hitting their "bonuses"

just wondering why dps is better... just rage starved is all. (Blizz knows that we are "rage starved" and might be giving us back our "enrage" talent since in B.c. there was same problem for a little bit til talents got fixed again).

also ... servers are still screwy with lag/ latency issues
(dont forget prolly 2-3 hot fix's on the way)

if any of this helps

(noticed armory is still screwy... it should update by now)

thoughts? (i know its backwards...but its been decent and till hot fix's come out its best that i came up with.)

Vong
10-15-2010, 03:25 AM
Holy crap.

(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^8)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^7)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^6) + (1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^5)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^4)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^3)+(1-(0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH)))) * (0.91^((7/6)+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sMH))+((1/(1-(0.25(1-c)^n))*sOH))))^2)

this to me looks like one of those pictures that when you stare at it long enough you can see something else. Personally I can see an Orc riding a donkey.
Again TGM ty for all the work you do so laymen like me can log on click a few
buttons and just carry on playing and getting the most out of the class.

I salute you sir.

Vong.

Arahael
10-15-2010, 04:10 AM
y i am using dual wheel

warriors on bikes ftw

27% hard cap for fury, 8% hard cap for arms

Kurllkrum
10-15-2010, 05:34 AM
Massive respect to the maths whizzes here and their formulae. I threw together a post for my guild forum explaining what I personally had done to get my DPS back up to par following the patch, I have also posted here http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?71265-Kurllkrum-s-quot-Keep-it-Simple-Stupid-quot-Fury-Guide.

Couple questions that keep coming up in this thread I think I can answer as follows, and some statments I've seen that I'm curious about :

Haste vs Hit

The answer for me is that Hit upto 27% will supply a steady supply of rage, up to the 27% Hard Hit Cap Haste will also suppy rage but we will still be left with periods of missses which will supply no rage. So while total rage gain will be the same you esentially will see (graphically if you were to plot it) a set of stairs with a even number of treads consistantly going up at the same rate if you have Hard Hit Cap. With Haste you will see a steeper set of stairs getting to the same point (total rage gained) over time but with landings occasionally (the misses). So the answer is Hit to Hard Cap and then Haste.

Crit

Crit is producing your flurry uptime and larger hits, so it too has it's worth.

Hit, Haste, Crit comparsions are obviously difficult at this point to model with the effects of enrages, flurry uptime etc and I look forward to TGM answering this to satisfy the min/maxers among us.

Gemming:

With the 5% increase to this primary stat from wearing plate I struggle to see why anyone would want to gem for anything but strenght (save for socket bonuses) when secondary stats can be achieved by a mishmash of reforging.

Reforging:
Most gear I have and see tends to now be Hit+Crit, Crit+Haste and I can't add a stat that already exists on gear my options my options are Crit to Hit or Haste, Haste to Hit or Crit, Hit to Haste or Crit. Under the 27% Hard Hit cap and assuming I still need my Crit for Flurry procs and bigger hits from abilities the answer seems to be Haste to Hit under cap. As for Haste to Crit over cap vs Crit to Haste over cap is going to come down to a look at recount. If your BT+HS macro is fireing HS everytime your BT hits and HS hits will be equal, so reforge for Crit, If they aren't you still haven't got enough rage so keep piling on the haste.

Keep up the good work here with the maths side, thats just my 2cents to try and simplyfy things for those who just want to get back into ICC and finish out the content without feeling like they are being carried.

term
10-15-2010, 07:49 AM
This is what I found through a lot of trial and error wearing t-10 set bonus:

I re-gemmed for Strength. Reforged Haste into Expertise to cap and Hit to hard cap. This keeps my rage high w/ no misses. I specced fully into Incite and my priority is HS>BT>RB (filler). When Execute is up I spam execute. Commanding Shout (in raid) and berserker rage to proc RB if everything else is on CD.

I removed Slam and WW from my rotation. The cost/dps output of slam is horrible. I only use WW and Cleave when there are multiples.

When I switched to Exp>Hard Hit>Crit + the HS priority there was an immediate jump in my rage and dps. With Exp and Hard hit capped there is very little rage loss from missed swings allowing for HS/BT spam.

Yves
10-15-2010, 07:58 AM
Hi all, thought i jump in and say thanks to all of you for doing your thing.

But tbh, Chinese makes more sense to me then all those calculations :D

Am i right when i say that
Hit needs to be 27ish %
Crit needs to be 33ish %
Haste needs to be 21ish %
The simple version without the math lol

To get a somewhat decent DPS?

I have not done anything yet to my gear since i was a bit clueless what to do.
So all my gems etc.. are completely wrong and some even have the wrong color/socket(thanks Blizz).

So naturaly my DPS is terrible at 3k or something, 5k if i am lucky.
Though the new rotation takes some getting used to imo specially using the RB

Thanks for all your hard work and testing, we warriors would be clueless without you guys ;)

Fledern
10-15-2010, 08:06 AM
Having read all the talk about hit vs haste, how hardcapping hit will get more rage, etc and comparing to my personal experiences in front of the dummy i'm confused.

Before attacking the dummy, regemmed to benefit from all sockets, softcapped my hit, went for str/haste on all my yellow sockets, regemmed some more stuff to lower hit & gain haste. In the process i lost about 10% in crit, gained about 5% haste and 1000 AP. I put out 6K dps on the dummy (and there were only other casters on the dummy, so no extra debuffs or buffs other than my own)

30% of my attacks were white attacks.
Raging Blow glow was always on, if it wasnt on my zerker rage was always available
I had some ragestarvation streaks but those really felt more to me using HS on low rage than actual problems. It certainly didnt feel like anything some raidbuffs couldnt solve.

now, white attacks being 30% of my overall damage, i really dont see why i shoud be aiming for hit hardcapping. It's a pretty far away target and i'd be losing a lot of other stats. Haste is a really nice stat when you're wielding two-handers, it might be less of an issue with SMF, but for titans grip, haste helps a lot. Rage, while not in great abundance, wasnt that much of an issue either, with the zerker rage glyph & shouts usually covering up dry spells pretty well.

In light of the above, does anybody have a logical explanation why hitcapping at the expense of other stats is really worth it?

I'm usually in prot gear so armory links wont do good, i'll put my stats here:

AP: 5221
Haste: 27.75%
Hit: 8.23%
Crit: 40.56%
Expertise 26/26
Mastery: 8

Krenian
10-15-2010, 08:06 AM
This is what I found through a lot of trial and error wearing t-10 set bonus:

I re-gemmed for Strength. Reforged Haste into Expertise to cap and Hit to hard cap. This keeps my rage high w/ no misses. I specced fully into Incite and my priority is HS>BT>RB (filler). When Execute is up I spam execute. Commanding Shout (in raid) and berserker rage to proc RB if everything else is on CD.

I removed Slam and WW from my rotation. The cost/dps output of slam is horrible. I only use WW and Cleave when there are multiples.

When I switched to Exp>Hard Hit>Crit + the HS priority there was an immediate jump in my rage and dps. With Exp and Hard hit capped there is very little rage loss from missed swings allowing for HS/BT spam.

This is exactly what I'm doing with my Fury Warrior and I've jumped up in DPS myself. I went 2 in War Academy, 3 in Incite and I can see a significant increase.

Macbrother
10-15-2010, 08:36 AM
Agree with everyone prioritizing Heroic Strike over the "normal" rotation. With incite, HS just crits too often and too powerful, I'm pushing close to 7k dps on dummies strictly worrying about BT, HS, and RB (in that order) while weaving in shouts and Berserker Rage. When I try and incorporate slam and use HS strictly as a rage dump, I lose roughly ~500dps.

My stats (with battle shout) are:
5400 AP
45.5% crit
24% hit
10% haste

I didn't drastically lower my crit to get hit to hard or increase haste beyond that, because honestly I haven't seen conclusive testing that suggests it.

Jonas90
10-15-2010, 08:58 AM
Im hitting like 4-4.5k range Heroic dummy and my GS is lke 5800

So I reforged the majority of crit to get close to the hit cap. My hit is now at 24ish percent
My crit is at 33ish percent
and my haste is at 20ish percent

I have all +20/+34 str gems in my red sockets, except two have +20 expertise
yellow sockets have 10 crit 10 str
blue sockets +20 hit

Is there anything you would recommend? That would up my dps?

Thank you

Erkebrand
10-15-2010, 09:35 AM
Im hitting like 4-4.5k range Heroic dummy and my GS is lke 5800

I have the following unbuffed stats right now
Hit: 25,14 %
Exp: 6,25 %
AP: 5575
Crit:35,78
Haste:10,58 %
Mastery: 8 %

Talent: 2/31/3 (full incite)

I just did 5900 dps in a 3 min and 20 sec try (got bored and my finger felt sore) doing nothing but spamming one button (macroed BT+HS) WITHOUT any selfbuffs (no shouts or any cooldowns).

2350

Try it out :-)

skisa
10-15-2010, 10:08 AM
I am amused.

Unbuffed, regemmed, reforged stats:
haste 20,37%
hit 23.29%
crit 35.38%
exp 26

Target dummy fight ~5m
Spamming BT + HS : 5.7k
Spamming BT + RB + HS + Use Slam procs : 7k
Spamming BT + RB + HS - no slam : 7.5k

(armory link - but it hasnt updated with proper gem and reforge yet )

eatualive
10-15-2010, 12:29 PM
I've been testing all possibility's whit gear, specs and rotations and wanted to share this whit you.

I always made sure i had expertise cap and i had around 40% crit(until last test). The haste was between 8-11%

The first day i hit like 4,5k dps when i went to full mastery so that is not a winner atm(i had soft hit cap).
After going hit hard cap i hitted 5,4k dps whit 2x 1 hander and 2x 2 hander (both i264) whit normal rotation and slam.

After going BT + HS at same time + spam RB in between i managed to hit 6,5k whit 2 handers and 6,1k whit 1 handers (Looks like 2 handers doing a better job).

Then i saw the post of skisa and i did drop 5% crit for haste and drop some hit aswell.
My stats are now:
35% crit
24,5% hit
16,5% haste
5379AP
and 29/26 expertise

I now hit 7,3k dps whit 2 handers(wasn't perfect). I got a nice rage flow to make sure i can spam BT, HS en RB.
So it looks like this is the direction a fury should go.

Torpeedo
10-15-2010, 12:39 PM
Since armory doesn't seem to be updating gear I would be interested in what 2 trinkets you are using when you did your tests.
Have you kept DBW and WFS which increase stats posted above when proc'd or have you switch one/both out for hit trinkets like 245 trinket and 219 P Infuser?

Kamiell
10-15-2010, 12:44 PM
OK I had to do alot of changes but here is what i did and the results i got so far.

Had to change the icc 25 man gear i had that was not plate for plate even for ilvl 245 bracers. Changed the ashen veredict ring that i had with agi for the STR one. and all other gear that had agi as a main stat for STR ones (thank god i saved my rings in the bank). my stats now are as follows:

STR: 2472

AP: 5423
haste: 15%
hit chance: 26,57% (had to reforge alot of the haste gear to hit)
crit: 40.54%
Experties 27
Mastery 8%

now im pulling 9kish on boss dummy, average on heroic runs 8k and on boses 12k+

the rotation is very funky feeling but its there, no more Aoe abilitys for the most part but at least i dont feel like a carry on bag on grp again.

Will test it on icc 25 heroic tonight and will post if i notice anything.

eatualive
10-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Trinket is use are DBW & deaths choise. i tested whit hit trinket and haste trinket aswell but this was better.
To give you a idea about my gear its all 264 except deaths choise and the bracers from toc.

Krenian
10-15-2010, 01:37 PM
Tonight will be a big test as to how well I do with my DPS on single targets. I'm Especially wanting to get to Saurfang and test that out.

Will post my parse at that point with the following rotation and stats:

3901 AP
22.54% hit
37.11% Crit
29 Expertise (Can't get rid of 16 points somehow. Go figure.)

Rotation will be HS > BT > RB > slam if I got nothing else left.

Thegreatme
10-15-2010, 01:54 PM
~17mins of continuous testing on the heroic target dummy
2/31/3
Reforged Crit -> Hit till hard cap, then haste.
prioritized HS>BT>RB>slam

http://i52.tinypic.com/2hg5w11.jpg

Ion
10-15-2010, 02:27 PM
~17mins of continuous testing on the heroic target dummy
2/31/3
Reforged Crit -> Hit till hard cap, then haste.
prioritized HS>BT>RB>slam

So...crit is worse than haste which is worse than hit? Did you do math for that or just do it experimentally?

Also you had 238 raging blows and 258 bloodthirsts, but you were prioritizing BT over RB?

eatualive
10-15-2010, 02:30 PM
hmm interesting. instead of doing BT + HS doing HS > BT > RB (i ignore slam). my dps went to 8,3k.
I have to add i changed some more crit for haste + hit.

Thegreatme
10-15-2010, 02:40 PM
I didn't do any specific calculations, but with how heroic strike is working, the roles of our GCD abilities essentially become our rage dumps, meaning we are scaling much more with rage generation, and the only two stats that have a direct impact on rage generation is hit and haste.

EDIT: also with this method we can actually determine the rage generation required to maintain 100%HSF and use all of our other abilities on CD. from there we can calculate how much haste you need post hard hit cap in order to get this much rage generation. any haste past this point would be devalued and then other stats such as crit and mastery might be prefered

Ion
10-15-2010, 02:44 PM
I didn't do any specific calculations, but with how heroic strike is working, the roles of our GCD abilities essentially become our rage dumps, meaning we are scaling much more with rage generation, and the only two stats that have a direct impact on rage generation is hit and haste.

I was mostly curious if reforging haste to hit would be better than reforging crit to hit, really. I suppose I can (when I get home) just spend some time reforging and testing. And I'm still curious about how you got so many (relatively) raging blows compared to bloodthirsts when you were prioritizing BT higher.

Thegreatme
10-15-2010, 02:52 PM
on recount every time you use raging blow it counts two hits, because it hits with the MH and OH so in reality I did 118 RB's. also I was initially reforging haste-> hit before I changed to Crit->hit/haste, and with just the reforging change alone I experienced a fairly noticeable increase in rage generation, allowing for much more consistent DPS.

Thegreatme
10-15-2010, 03:44 PM
For those of you who are curious, Yes I will indeed be making a video guide for fury in 4.0.1

I have already started recording some stuff, but I probably won't release it until I am at least fairly certain blizzard won't change things again.

Macbrother
10-15-2010, 05:12 PM
There was definitely another buff between this morning and this afternoon, I logged out *barely* making 7k, now I'm able to do 9.1k.

Also, another factor, although it seems anti-intuitive, I'm not sure if one of the talents are bugged, or what, but when I pick up 3/3 incite over 3/3 war academy I consistently lost 300dps, and that's doing 4 3:30 tests for both, so I just went back to the original 3/31/2 and sticking with that for now.

Lastly, I did go back and change my Haste-> Hit reforging to Crit-> Hit/Haste, and I did gain a (small) amount of 300dps. Just things to keep in mind.

Erkebrand
10-15-2010, 05:17 PM
...but I probably won't release it until I am at least fairly certain blizzard won't change things again.

Im betting that HS in this OP form wont make it and slam-no-thank-you-maam is also more than likely to be buffed. And I'm certain that blizzard intent for Slam to play a more significant(indicated by the position of Bloodsurge in out talent tree) part in our rotation and for HS to actually be a ragedump and not our primary damage ability. But hey - i will be looking forward for your videos anyway :-)

Krenian
10-15-2010, 05:31 PM
Piss on slam. I hated the ability for Fury anyway.

I'm all for HS being main attack and being HS post 20, execute 20 and less. GO SPAMMING!

Erkebrand
10-15-2010, 05:39 PM
Piss on slam

Harsh !

Krenian
10-15-2010, 06:31 PM
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-m9i8i4mw1ezvz8p0/

Enjoy. Am raiding atm.

Thegreatme
10-15-2010, 08:02 PM
Video guide is done:

quality will get better once it's completely done processing. Sorry about the incredibly mediocre voiceover work

Jonas90
10-15-2010, 08:27 PM
Thank you so much for the Video....

So I reforged most of my crit --> Hit and now I'm at 24.82 percent
On Herkuml War token trinket I reforged the haste to get closer to the cap as well.

My is haste is now at 16ish percent and my crit is around 36ish percent with Battleshout up. Now Hit> Haste > Crit correct?

Any advice on what I should do to get my dps up?

Jonas90
10-15-2010, 08:37 PM
Does it matter if Crit falls below 30 to get to the Hit cap?

Tinytankz
10-15-2010, 08:44 PM
No hard hit cap and haste are better than crit anytime till you are maxing rage then drop some haste.

Kamiell
10-15-2010, 10:58 PM
Ok ty so much for the help TGM and all that contributed im once again pulling 15 to 16k on bosses. only that the rotation feels wierd and boaring oh well. Thanks again!

Unger
10-16-2010, 01:04 AM
Thought I would report in and let you know how the guide has worked for me.

Target Dummy

Hit 27.19%
Haste 24%
Crit 35.92%
Mastery:8.00
AP 5345 (self buffed)
Expertise 38 (I know, I know)

8749.6 dps per second

Heroic Strike was first with Min 5.1k and max of 19k. Avg was 10.3k and was 31.2% of dps. Hit/Crit was 56/44%
Melee was second ranging from 1.0k - 7.2k. Avg was 3k and was 28.9% of dps. Hit/Crit was 41/32% and glancing was 26.4%
Bloodthirst was 3rd ranging from 4.1k - 15.2k. Avg was 8.2 and was 24.7% of dps. Hit/Crit was 54/46%
Raging blow was last ranging 1.8k - 13.4k, avg of 5.1k. It was 15.2% of dps. Hit/Crit was 64/36%

I didnt use slam! because I was still pretty rage starved spamming HS. I gemmed for strength except for 2 hit gems and 4 Hit/Haste gems. Everything was reforged from crit to hit.

I am wondering if my crit is too low. It may be that crit needs to be higher to keep flurry up.... and that could be hurting rage generation.

Let me know how you all do....

term
10-16-2010, 08:34 AM
You can drop some of your expertise. I actually dropped mine below 26 and just eat food to pick it up. All of my stats are close to yours except the crit which I keep about the 40%. I switched trinkets from the Whispering Skull to the 264 frost badge haste trinket. The 264 trink has haste and you can reforge that or DBW (if you have) to hit if you needed it.

I am very rarely out of rage. If I am, I pop Battle/Commanding shout.

I am hitting about 10k on the dummy on average.

Leorance
10-16-2010, 10:50 AM
heres my question... is Titan's Grip better than Single Minded Fury and why?

jesberger
10-16-2010, 11:17 AM
As Kamiell said, pretty boring rotation. But huge thanks to you TGM, really appreciate the thread and all the help. ;)

Thegreatme
10-16-2010, 12:57 PM
heres my question... is Titan's Grip better than Single Minded Fury and why?
Currently the only weapon that would be decent for SMF is black bruise, but because it is mainhand only it leaves us with no decent offhand choices, making SMF's DPS fall behind

Jonas90
10-16-2010, 01:27 PM
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/8148/wowscrnshot101610125516.jpg

Im getting like 6.2k DPS on a dummy with a 5800 GS is that way to low?

eatualive
10-16-2010, 02:00 PM
Ive been testing with 1 handers and 2 handers. I can hit 9,8 dps on dummy after hotfix with 2 handers. With 1 handers i reach 7,7k.

Stats 2 handers:
21% haste
26,57% Hit
33% crit
29/26 exp
5165AP

stats 1 handerS:
15,77% haste
27% hit
4425AP
26/26 exp
crit 33,20%

I got between 6 and 6,1 gs. The dps difference between of 2 handers and 1 handers will be partly because of not having decent weapons. But personally i think 2 handers still win from 1 handers if the stats are decent on 1 handers. (I might be wrong).

Jonas90
10-16-2010, 02:16 PM
Can somebody check the link I just posted, how in the hell do you guys so much dps when I just do like 6k

term
10-16-2010, 02:28 PM
Can somebody check the link I just posted, how in the hell do you guys so much dps when I just do like 6k

What are you using in your attack rotation?

Thegreatme
10-16-2010, 02:29 PM
It means you are doing something wrong. And regardless of how good our observations skills may or may not be, simply providing us a screenshot will not provide us with enough data to identify the problem.

eatualive
10-16-2010, 02:34 PM

Tinytankz
10-16-2010, 03:11 PM
I am unable to hop in game has the hotfix with blood surge making slam free been put in yet?

Thegreatme
10-16-2010, 05:25 PM
Just a BTW for all 2 of you that might be interested in this:

we can fairly accurately determine n (attacks per 3 swings) using the hits/sec data from my work on enrage uptime. hits/sec from instant attacks will not exceed 7/6 so you can determine the 3 swing period of your weapons and multiply it by 7/6, then add 3. if you are interested in getting an even more accurate value of n you can start accounting for usage gaps for each ability (such as in reality slam should have an average value of 17/200 hits/sec instead of 1/6)

Jonas90
10-16-2010, 05:40 PM
Can anybody post a video with the emphasize on the rotation? I cant get it down..

Thegreatme
10-16-2010, 07:18 PM
spam HS. use other abilities when you have the rage to do so, but don't get rage starved to the point that you can't do HS constantly. it is exactly the same concept as before except now instead of HS being the rage dump, the abilities that are on the GCD are the rage dump.

if you have problems getting it down then just practice more.

Pesko
10-16-2010, 08:18 PM
holy fuck.. saw the math in your first post.. do you have a math degree or something?
anyways, cheers mon! great work, i ow you one!

I can link the logs from our latest raid, preHotfix though, if its any help to your calulations

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9383/hsspamonly.png

Ronninn
10-16-2010, 09:33 PM
I heard that expertise cap was different today and did some testing. With expertise rating of 152 (+ human racial for maces and swords), hitting the boss level target dumbie from behind, I had absolutely no dodges. Is it possible then lowered the expertise rating needed to cap, or is it likely a bug?

Krenian
10-16-2010, 09:39 PM
Yeah, TGM is a lil psychotic on the math side. Kinda silly.

Pesko
10-16-2010, 09:43 PM
TGM also knows as Charlie Epps

Macbrother
10-16-2010, 09:52 PM
I heard that expertise cap was different today and did some testing. With expertise rating of 152 (+ human racial for maces and swords), hitting the boss level target dumbie from behind, I had absolutely no dodges. Is it possible then lowered the expertise rating needed to cap, or is it likely a bug?

It's looking indeed that, for whatever reason, the amount of expertise required to get zero dodges has been lowered. Extensive testing (50,000+ hits in some cases) on EJ has shown zero dodges at 172 expertise rating.

Thegreatme
10-16-2010, 10:37 PM
As amazing as it may seem I am not a math major and I have no intentions of majoring in math. I also have never taken a prob/stats class even though most of the math these days is revolves around percent occurrences. The highest level math course I have taken was highschool calculus. However I am fairly good at noticing/remembering patterns and I enjoy playing around with numbers. And yes, I am at least partially crazy.

Pesko
10-16-2010, 10:41 PM
im just pretty amused by your math :) GJ and GL on the guide anyhow, has helped a bucket load allready :)

uglybbtoo
10-17-2010, 02:52 AM
There was definitely another buff between this morning and this afternoon, I logged out *barely* making 7k, now I'm able to do 9.1k.

Also, another factor, although it seems anti-intuitive, I'm not sure if one of the talents are bugged, or what, but when I pick up 3/3 incite over 3/3 war academy I consistently lost 300dps, and that's doing 4 3:30 tests for both, so I just went back to the original 3/31/2 and sticking with that for now.

Lastly, I did go back and change my Haste-> Hit reforging to Crit-> Hit/Haste, and I did gain a (small) amount of 300dps. Just things to keep in mind.

Sorry to tell you this they went to far its impossible to tank for fury warriors now they are worse than mages were.

I had a fury from chromagnus doing 15K in a heroic all you can do is basically spam taunt every CD. They need to drop the buff to about half what they buffed fury.

skisa
10-17-2010, 03:50 AM
Sorry to tell you this they went to far its impossible to tank for fury warriors now they are worse than mages were.
..

It makes things interesting, sure :D but only in AoE really.

Been farming heroics with my husband, he's a prot warrior, and I end up tanking half the stuff if there is AoE (with a pug tank I end up tanking it all). On single target fights he has no problems though. Same in raid, I pretty much take all the aggro (along with mages and locks) but then on bossfights prot tank is doing much better than before 4.0.1.

Jonas90
10-17-2010, 07:07 AM
Should I spec for 3/3 War academy? or Incite

Yves
10-17-2010, 03:00 PM
Sorry might be a dumb ass question, but anyway i'll be dumb then lol

What did you guys regem with, considering the gems which we got were nothing good.
go for gems with crit/hit/haste ?
Or just go for Str/Str-Crit/Str-Stam

Macbrother
10-17-2010, 05:23 PM
Should I spec for 3/3 War academy? or Incite

Although 3/3 Incite would seem like a dps increase, I actually lost about 300dps in my tests with it, so I'm sticking with 3/3 War Academy until I see definite evidence otherwise. I encourage everyone to do their own testing on it though.

Sorry might be a dumb ass question, but anyway i'll be dumb then lol

What did you guys regem with, considering the gems which we got were nothing good.
go for gems with crit/hit/haste ?
Or just go for Str/Str-Crit/Str-Stam

Pick up all socket bonuses, Str in Red, Str/Haste in Yellow, Str/Hit in blue.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 01:01 AM
This new Fury rotation is really interesting. I love the unconventional nature; the emphasis on white damage, the priority attack being off the GCD... it's neat. I hope it stays the same at level 85.

Erkebrand
10-18-2010, 03:06 AM
If we are to believe the intention of blizzard and specifically Ghostcrawler (http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue-tracker/us-forums/26726035459-warrior-changes-12942-and-t11-bonuses.html#133) i wont stay the same. GC said this last month:

It's not important to keep Slam scaling with haste so long as Arms scales with haste. It's only a problem if you'd get to the point of dropping Slam from your rotation or something, which we think is unlikely. We'll make sure Heroic Strike never eclipses Slam. Heroic Strike isn't supposed to be a button you're ever excited about pushing at the expense of something else. It's just there so the rage doesn't go to waste.

I know its a reference to a question about the arms rotation, but the implication for fury should be the same. HS IS supposed to be our ragedump and NOT our primary rotational ability. And Slam should be better - so in that sense Blizz has failed their own goal as stated above..

EDIT: He also said this

We're not worried about Heroic Strike ever beating Slam. If that happens, it's just a tuning problem easily solved.

Krenian
10-18-2010, 06:30 AM
If we are to believe the intention of blizzard and specifically Ghostcrawler (http://www.worldofraids.com/wow-blue-tracker/us-forums/26726035459-warrior-changes-12942-and-t11-bonuses.html#133) i wont stay the same. GC said this last month:

I know its a reference to a question about the arms rotation, but the implication for fury should be the same. HS IS supposed to be our ragedump and NOT our primary rotational ability. And Slam should be better - so in that sense Blizz has failed their own goal as stated above..

EDIT: He also said this
Then I hope he realizes that HS is hitting harder than Slam right now because HS > Slam in our rotations and it's useless to slam because the cost of rage it does and the fact that we're tied closely with our GCD.

Furthermore, they better add more than one attack to proc Bloodsurge because only hitting BT and giving it a 30% chance is a near guarantee that it won't be used as often as they like. Simply put, you're not giving it enough chance. Maybe 50% might be a better number? I won't kid myself when I say that I know which number it would be not to break the game but I just feel like Slam is just not up often enough for me to warrant pressing the button.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 06:37 AM
at the same time it's important to remember that they really do not care that much about ability balance right now, just like they haven't during all of the other x.0 patches. OH crit's proccing MH stacks of deep wounds anyone? most of this will drastically change at 85.

Krenian
10-18-2010, 07:04 AM
at the same time it's important to remember that they really do not care that much about ability balance right now, just like they haven't during all of the other x.0 patches. OH crit's proccing MH stacks of deep wounds anyone? most of this will drastically change at 85.

True enough however looking at what is happening between now and 85, you can see that not many of our abilities are changing. We're getting Colossal Smash which will be added first and foremost all the time to get damage through armor, however that isn't adding a new ability and as such, we're still tied with one ability: HS.

Now will the damage of Slam and Heroic Strike change from 80 to 85, that I don't know. But right now, all I can say is that there's only five levels worth of difference and I don't see it happening unless they decide to actually change the numbers right about now. Granted like you said, they're not going to do it right now, and will most likely touch that up at 85 if it still is the case.

Truthfully? I prefer this method of play than to rely on Slam's proc. Probably personal preference and all but I like how the spec is jiving right now.

sammy134
10-18-2010, 07:23 AM

Biocore
10-18-2010, 11:40 AM
are there any results about stat-priorities haste>strength? i just tested gemming

yellow: haste
red: strength/haste

and I got that feeling the dps went up but I'm not really sure. It really looks weird to me runnin' with 1058 haste (32.27%) and I don't know if its worth it because I lost about 500 AP. I'm a little bit confused^^. Anyone tested something like this too?

Squirrelnut
10-18-2010, 11:56 AM
Here is a question, TGM you mentioned reforging Crit -> Hit and Crit -> Haste. In a 25m raid setting is it really worthwhile reforging Crit -> Haste? I was wondering if we might be near rage capped in a 25m but I haven't had the chance to raid 25m yet so I have no idea. If we had near infinite rage then I would think Crit would be far more important but perhaps that isn't possible yet in which case I would understand getting more haste.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 01:35 PM
right now in order to fill the GCD table and have 100% HSF you would need to be generating 23.33 rage per second. we should be stacking haste until we hit that point, and after that point we should itemize for crit and maybe even mastery

SenatorS
10-18-2010, 01:52 PM
what is the cap for haste. right now i am at the hit rating cap and expercites cap and i would like to know the haste cap thx

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 02:11 PM
there isn't one.

Quietsch
10-18-2010, 02:25 PM
Hit/haste:

I still fail to see why people are saying hit is better than haste. for a 1% increase of either stat you get a 1% net increase of attacks landing, resulting in the same DPS gain, and the same rage gain.

I could easily be missing something here, and if this is indeed the case, let me know.

hits per second formula is (1/(wpnspd/(1+haste%*haste%)))*(1-(0,24-hit%)
if i haven't made any mistake, you get more benefit (= hits per second) out of every point of hit before the hardcap, than out of haste.
the point is that you don't get a 1% increase per 1% more stat. (and even if it was so, hit would be better because of the better conversion)
maybe i look a little bit more in-depth into it tomorrow, but at the moment i'm not really able to explain why (and how) the difference really developes... (and even if there maybe is a point where haste outweighs hit before the hardcap)

Squirrelnut
10-18-2010, 02:54 PM
right now in order to fill the GCD table and have 100% HSF you would need to be generating 23.33 rage per second. we should be stacking haste until we hit that point, and after that point we should itemize for crit and maybe even mastery
Maybe I am missing something obvious but how do you calculate your rage per second generation?

Pesko
10-18-2010, 02:56 PM
Any point going for pure haste gems ? i suffer from huge ragestavasion

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 03:23 PM
Maybe I am missing something obvious but how do you calculate your rage per second generation?
you run up to a target dummy with just your MH on and hit it, see how much rage you get and then write that down, then put your OH on and do it again, then subtract the amount your MH gives from the total rage gained to see how much your OH gives.

MATH TIME!

Because I was curious to see how much haste would be required in order to reach this "magical" 23.333 rage per second value, I started running the numbers:

MH: 3.7speed: 24 rage per hit
OH: 3.6speed: 11 rage per hit

24/(3.7(1-x))+11/(3.6(1-x))=23.333

if you know anything about adding fractions, you know this is the part where things get messy.

24(3.6(1-x))/(3.6(1-x))(3.7(1-x)) + 11(3.7(1-x))/(3.7(1-x)) (3.6(1-x))=23.333

let's simplify that denominator:
remember FOIL from 9th grade algebra? it's back.
(3.6(1-x))(3.7(1-x))=13.32-26.64x+13.32x^2

once you also simplify the numerator you have this:
(127.1-127x) / (13.32-26.64x+13.32x^2) = 23.333

time to start moving things around/simplifying so we can solve for x:
127.1-127.1x = 310.7556-621.5112x+310.7556x^2

-183.6556 = 494.4112x + 310.7556x^2

finally, you simplify it to look like this:

310.7556x^2+494.4112x+183.6556= 0

remember the quadratic formula from 9th grade algebra? yup, it's back too.

once you do that you get
x= -1
x= -0.590996912

what this means is that if you have a 3.7 speed MH and a 3.6 OH, you need to have basically 60% haste in order to have enough rage generation to be able to completely fill the GCD table, and have 100% HSF

NOTES:

this math doesn't account for berserker rage or battle shout usage
the actual value of necessary max rage generation will be lower than 23.333 rage per second because of gaps in slam and RB usage.
I am not entirely sure why I received a negative value for x when I used the quadratic formula, but it could be do to an error in my calculations at some point in the process
Flurry uptimes are not accounted for

shiz98
10-18-2010, 03:33 PM
Doesn't crit still affect the amount of rage generated? Or did you boil that into the average rage/hit?

Here's a simpler process for the maths:

24/(3.7*(1-x)) + 11/(3.6*(1-x)) = 23.33
=> (24 * 3.6 + 11 * 3.7)/(3.6*3.7*(1-x)) = 23.33
=> 127.1/(13.32*(1-x)) = 23.33
=> 9.54/(1-x) = 23.33
=> 1-x = 0.4089
=> x = 0.591

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 03:35 PM
crit no longer is a variable in rage per hit. it's essentially weapon speed*weapon constant. offhand weapons also have a 0.5 coefficient slapped on

shiz98
10-18-2010, 03:39 PM
Can you cite that? I haven't been keeping up with the EJ theorycrafting (wayyy behind on my EJ thread reading), so I haven't seen any testing there, but based off the announcements blizzard has made (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?65566-Upcoming-Cataclysm-Rage-Changes! for example), it seems like crit should still be a factor.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 03:42 PM

first GC post on that page, second paragraph.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 03:51 PM
Sweet, thanks. I actually just did some testing myself, and it confirms it.

This makes the rage calculation sooooo much easier now. We don't have to worry about crits, glancings... it's glorious!

Xodiv
10-18-2010, 05:54 PM
Those numbers seem odd to me. Base rage generation with 0 haste and no flurry is 9.75 rage/sec (rounded down a bit for weapon speed). This is 6.5 rage/sec for MH and 3.25 (half) for OH. This is how rage works now, it's 6.5 rage/sec multiplied by weapon speed. Other than the slight rounding there's no need to factor weapon speed in (has anyone tested if you can earn fractional rage which is kept but not displayed?).

If you need to get to 23.333 rage/sec you'll need to be attacking 23.333 / 9.75 = ~2.4 times faster.

To attack 2.4 times faster you need 140% haste.

What have I missed/gotten wrong here?

Flurry is obviously a big deal here since it's multiplicative with haste rating haste. Same with 10% melee haste buff. Battle Trance is also a big factor in the rage requirements.

In any case I think the requirement is really more like 17.5 rage/s, accounting for Battle Trance and Shouts. In each 6s:

2 * BT + 2 * HS + RB => 2 * 20 + 2 * 0.85 * 30 + 20 => 111/6 = 18.5
Then subtract 30 rage / 30 s for shout, which is 1 rage/s = 17.5

DarkraveR
10-18-2010, 06:39 PM
How about gemming is full strength now the way to go or is +10 stength +10 hit and +10 strength and +10 haste better for putting in blue and yellow sockets?

Is Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50415) still a good weapon for the MH?

The two weapons below and Citadel Enforcer's Claymore (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50761) i have that i can use for OH. Which item combination should i use for getting the expertise cap?

or

Quel'Delar, Might of the Faithful (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50048) and Bone Drake's Enameled Boots (http://www.wowhead.com/item=51915)

Is it still worth getting Shadow's Edge (http://www.wowhead.com/item=49888) or is it a waste of Justice points to buy saronites with it?

Hope you guys can help me with the questions i have. And nice that you made a video Thegreatme really could use that for the time before cata.

Xodiv
10-18-2010, 06:54 PM
(has anyone tested if you can earn fractional rage which is kept but not displayed?).

To elaborate on this (I'm at work and can't test this myself for another 8 hours), if you watch your rage generation there are two possibilities:

You always see the same rage number generated from every MH hit (and every OH hit) -> no fractional rage is kept server-side.

You mostly see one number, but every Nth hit you see a number that is one higher -> fractional rage is kept.

With a 3.7 speed weapon you should see a higher number every 20th swing. With a 3.6 speed weapon you should see one every third swing.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 07:10 PM
I remember landsoul making a post on EJ stating that the fractional rage is stored, though I haven't tested it personally.

shiz98
10-18-2010, 08:10 PM
I can confirm that fractional rage is stored, based on dummy testing.

Xodiv
10-18-2010, 08:28 PM
Thank you very much for testing the fractional rage.

Well that's easy then, no need to worry about the weapon speed rounding.

(Average) Rage/sec for fury is then:

[base] * [rating haste] * [flurry haste] * [buff haste] * [hit chance] =

9.75 * (1 + haste%/100) * (flurry uptime * 1.25) * 1.1 * hitchance

I'd have to think a bit about the flurry uptime formula, whether it varies with haste, weaponspeed or just crit chance. Hit chance includes expertise+hit, and the 1.1 is 10% from Improved Icy Talons etc.

Thegreatme
10-18-2010, 08:35 PM
technically flurry does scale with haste because it reduces the time of the 3 swing period, meaning less time for non-swing attacks to occur. luckily if you accurately account for possible slam usage (51% occurrence every 6s), and assume ~75% raging blow frequency, you can simply determine the 3 swing period and just take that number and add 3 to it because instant attacks/sec ends up being 601/600 attacks per second, which is basically 1.

Xodiv
10-18-2010, 11:16 PM
I guess in calculating your 3 swing time (or alternatively flurry charges consumed/sec which is how Landsoul's spreadsheet does it) you have to assume 100% flurry uptime otherwise you end up with a dependency loop.

Does a missed swing consume a flurry charge?

Tinytankz
10-19-2010, 01:39 AM
Just kind of reporting in wanna see if this is normal
Hs hits way higher than Slam and i am ignoring slam unless one of the follwing things happens (i have 65+ rage, my addons dont tell em about slams procs if this isnt the case)
OR
Any 10% more haste person is in the raid for me rage gen is no longer an issue i have hardcapped hit and Stacked haste probably to the loss of crit more than people would like.

Also out of 10 man hardmodes (save LK) http://www.wowhead.com/item=51936 seems Like my best bet (i only do 10 man hardmodes with the new changes to the lockouts so hardmodes 10 man weps are my only options.

Repo
10-19-2010, 03:32 AM
Now, I'm no math wiz, but I do have some logic skills and a lot of time spent regemming and reforging over the last few days. Something that ppl have been flirting with but not quite seeming to outright say in this last page, crit does indeed increase rage generation up to a certain point(infinite flurry), and in fact to a certain earlier point it does so more effectively than haste rating(where 1point of crit rating's effect on flurry uptime=greater haste over time than granted by 1 point of haste including that haste's extra chance to proc flurry minus that haste's chances of eating charges faster- simple right?). I have no idea what those numbers are, but I was wondering if TGM or one of you other mathy folks might want to model that for us through calculation of flurry uptime. 25% haste is quite a bit especially in post 3.x WoW, and I've noticed that going a second or two w/o flurry has been devastating for my rage gen and hence my dps. I've been concentrating on SMF post patch and with the smaller stat pools each push in either direction has had a much more noticible swing on my overall dps. I've been unable to hit cap as SMF w/o sacrificing strength, and str/AP is definitely king so i've been living with it opting to keep str in every slot and get my 24%ish hit rating strictly from reforging and str/hit gems in my blue sockets. I'll be back after tomorrow with some concrete numbers, but thus far, even though a bias towards haste has produced smoother rage gen (as expected) crit has pretty consistently produced a slightly higher dps output. First on my list of things to test tomorrow was incite over war academy, so, glad to see some good things being said to support that decision- especially since HS is already my #1 damage move. I'll leave you with this gem though, fast OH seems to be ~the same dps as slow with RB OH hits not getting the hotfix buff that the MH hits got but provide much smoother rage gen.

skisa
10-19-2010, 04:47 AM
If anyone's interested:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/vntshq55pehsoczw/sum/damageDone/?s=8305&e=8501

HC saurfang 25m - so stand still and nuke the orc dummie :P

I would say that I have enough rage now in 25m (spamming glyphed BR and BS) to do HS + BT + RB, but not enough to use the Slam procs to fill up the GCDs. I am almost hit cap'd so I am guessing I should focus on getting haste up next.

Unbuffed on a dummy was 9.5k, but in a raid fully buffed it was 17.5k and I am pretty sure I can do better by looking more closely at ragemanagement to use HS more. but meh http://www.tankspot.images/smilies/cool.gif

All gear reforged crit > hit, except a ring crit > expertise. All red gems +20 str, yellow +10str +10crit and blue +10str +10hit. Same gear as in armory ( http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Argent+Dawn&cn=Skv%C3%ADsa&gn=The+Templar+Order ), except those changes, so yes HC Fanged Skull and normal DBW with their procs active.

P.s. as TGM mentioned in the video the rage can be gathered up before a fight, so managed to start fight with some gathered. On bloodqueen I even managed to start almost fully raged.. that is niiiiice but I wonder when they will "fix" that hehe

DarkraveR
10-19-2010, 06:14 AM
How about gemming is full strength now the way to go or is +10 stength +10 hit and +10 strength and +10 haste better for putting in blue and yellow sockets?

Is Bryntroll, the Bone Arbiter (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50415) still a good weapon for the MH?

The two weapons below and Citadel Enforcer's Claymore (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50761) i have that i can use for OH. Which item combination should i use for getting the expertise cap?

or

Quel'Delar, Might of the Faithful (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50048) and Bone Drake's Enameled Boots (http://www.wowhead.com/item=51915)

Is it still worth getting Shadow's Edge (http://www.wowhead.com/item=49888) or is it a waste of Justice points to buy saronites with it?

Hope you guys can help me with the questions i have. And nice that you made a video Thegreatme really could use that for the time before cata.

Nobody wanna answer my questions:(? Guess i am in the wrong part of the forum maybe.

skisa
10-19-2010, 06:25 AM
Nobody wanna answer my questions:(? Guess i am in the wrong part of the forum maybe.

It depends *allot* on your hit and expertise.

If you at least follow: Exp = 26, Hit as close to 27% as you can, Str > haste > crit , then you can answer this question yourself :) As in, how much do you need the hit from the claymore and how much do you need the stats from the other two weapons vs Bryntrolls str and proc.

Shadow's edge has two! red socets and bunch of strength, and more dps.. so it is worth it above what you currently have but if you have access to 25m loot / 10m hc you will want to consider the cost vs gain.

Xodiv
10-19-2010, 06:31 AM
Flurry uptime formula is simple, but explaining the probability formulas is beyond me.

Flurry status can only change on a melee swing, and the chance at any melee swing that flurry is up is the chance that you got a crit three melee swings ago or after (flurry is procced but not consumed by special attacks, so it can be any of the three melee swings or any specials in that time that crit).

You know your (buffed) crit chance, C.

You know your total haste from gear and buffs and averaged from procs, H. Well sort of, you don't know how much flurry uptime to add. Mostly 100% is used it seems to make the formula possible without an advanced math degree.

Your average time between melee swings, T, is (trust me here):

You need to know your number of specials per second, S. Thegreatme indicated on the previous page it was around 3.25 attacks per 6 seconds, or around 0.54.

The (average) total number of attacks you do in 3 swing times, N, is 3 normal attacks plus the special attacks:

It's hard to calculate the chance you got a crit in the last N attacks, but it's easy to calculate the chance you didn't (chance of non-crit N times in a row) and we know the chance you did is 1 minus that. That value is the flurry uptime, F.

What does this practically mean? The same thing it has always meant. The value of additional crit in increasing flurry chance decreases the more of it you get.

Conversely, although haste does drop your flurry uptime, it's very slowly. Some rough calculation shows 10% additional haste would drop your flurry uptime by less than 1%.

http://mib.personal.unimelb.edu.au/img/furygraph.png

This graph shows some values for approximately my gear. The red line assumes my haste is constant and shows the flurry uptime for increasing crit percentages. The blue line assumes my crit is constant, and shows the flurry uptime for various haste percentages.

Tinytankz
10-19-2010, 09:52 AM
Flurry uptime formula is simple, but explaining the probability formulas is beyond me.

Flurry status can only change on a melee swing, and the chance at any melee swing that flurry is up is the chance that you got a crit three melee swings ago or after (flurry is procced but not consumed by special attacks, so it can be any of the three melee swings or any specials in that time that crit).

You know your (buffed) crit chance, C.

You know your total haste from gear and buffs and averaged from procs, H. Well sort of, you don't know how much flurry uptime to add. Mostly 100% is used it seems to make the formula possible without an advanced math degree.

Your average time between melee swings, T, is (trust me here):

You need to know your number of specials per second, S. Thegreatme indicated on the previous page it was around 3.25 attacks per 6 seconds, or around 0.54.

The (average) total number of attacks you do in 3 swing times, N, is 3 normal attacks plus the special attacks:

It's hard to calculate the chance you got a crit in the last N attacks, but it's easy to calculate the chance you didn't (chance of non-crit N times in a row) and we know the chance you did is 1 minus that. That value is the flurry uptime, F.

What does this practically mean? The same thing it has always meant. The value of additional crit in increasing flurry chance decreases the more of it you get.

Conversely, although haste does drop your flurry uptime, it's very slowly. Some rough calculation shows 10% additional haste would drop your flurry uptime by less than 1%.

http://mib.personal.unimelb.edu.au/img/furygraph.png

This graph shows some values for approximately my gear. The red line assumes my haste is constant and shows the flurry uptime for increasing crit percentages. The blue line assumes my crit is constant, and shows the flurry uptime for various haste percentages.

You just explained in one post everything i didnt understand about wow math

Squirrelnut
10-19-2010, 10:20 AM
This graph shows some values for approximately my gear. The red line assumes my haste is constant and shows the flurry uptime for increasing crit percentages. The blue line assumes my crit is constant, and shows the flurry uptime for various haste percentages.

Extrapolating random points and ignoring all the well thought out information you provided... are you saying that at most levels of currently available gear would it be a good idea to reforge Crit into Haste?

I have 25 exp and 27% hit, I have the option to reforge some crit into additional haste but don't really know if it would help or hurt me. I am pretty much wondering if all you 'number' people have an answer for that kind of question or would it simply be the best approach to do the reforging, go spend some time on the target dummy and then compare WoL #'s of pre / post reforge changes?

Thegreatme
10-19-2010, 10:27 AM
The effect of increased haste on flurry uptime is pretty negligible, as it only affects the window of time that instant attacks can occur per 3 swings. the increase in hits/time and increase in rage generation should greatly outweigh the slightly lower flurry uptime associated with haste vs crit.

Biocore
10-19-2010, 11:06 AM
so does it make sense to gem vor haste instead of strength pure?I'm thinking about this since a couple of days. I think it could be like this because as you already mentioned more hits/time-->more rage-->more abilities/time (or/fight) can be used and this should be better than less rage and less but harder hitting abilities in use.

Kazeyonoma
10-19-2010, 11:21 AM
no, you still want to gem str i believe because STR is your baseline damage modifier. All of this discussion is between "rating" type stats that can be reforged.

Biocore
10-19-2010, 11:53 AM
hmmm but I think we should achieve those 23.33 rage right? (or get even close to it) so stacking haste is the only way to get close to it (after reaching hit hardcap) because I don't think there's any possible gear-combination at level 80 to reach this without gemming.This sounds weird to me because as you said strength is definitly our baseline damage modifier. So I think there's questition of more abilities(because of more rage/time and prefering haste) but weaker or less abilities and hitting harder (by prefering strength).hmmm now I'm confused...^^

edit: I don't know how this behaves in a raid enviroment (incoming damage more buffs) an how the use of shouts/beserker rage influence those thoughts so in a raid it could be more easy to get enough rage so strength could be better^^

Kazeyonoma
10-19-2010, 12:55 PM
I can't say for sure so I'll leave it to TGM to respond, but my understanding still is that STR is optimal after reaching caps of hit and expertise because it affects all of your attacks outgoing damage, while haste really only affects your rage gen/white hits.

shiz98
10-19-2010, 12:59 PM
Yep. However, STR and Crit have much the same effect on your overall DPS. Strength isn't better than other stats due to superior mechanics or anything; it's just more effective for the equivalent ilevel points.

Biocore
10-19-2010, 01:12 PM
but the rage gen changed that way that we are pretty depending on white hits.so even if we got 10k strength or so its useless if we got no rage or problems to get our rage to use our abilities fluently.so maybe a mixture might be the way to go but this means there has to be a haste cap an as TGM said there isn't really one (if I don't missunderstood him).Maybe my thoughts are to complicated and there is a simple answer but I tested stacking/gemming haste after hit hardcap and I got that feeling it isnt that bad.

Krenian
10-19-2010, 01:23 PM
Yep. However, STR and Crit have much the same effect on your overall DPS. Strength isn't better than other stats due to superior mechanics or anything; it's just more effective for the equivalent ilevel points.

Actually, I thought Strength was better due to the fact that you get 5% strength with Plate Specialization, which means Strength gets a bonus if you have more of it.

shiz98
10-19-2010, 02:05 PM
Well, it's never really an apples to apples comparison: STR has Plate Spec, Crit has its Deep Wounds damage and whatnot. These just change the potency of the stats though, and not the interactions. Stacking more crit makes STR more powerful for you, and likewise, stacking more STR makes crit more powerful for you, etc.

Ion
10-19-2010, 03:51 PM
The effect of increased haste on flurry uptime is pretty negligible, as it only affects the window of time that instant attacks can occur per 3 swings. the increase in hits/time and increase in rage generation should greatly outweigh the slightly lower flurry uptime associated with haste vs crit.

In fact, if it doesn't drop it past the point where you can hit X number of globals (which, as titan's grip, is usually 2), then it doesn't actually have any affect on flurry uptime. It IS possible to get enough haste so that you'll have a drop in your globals/3 swings count, but it's pretty high...it also probably depends on your latency.

Which basically means that the smooth curve shown above isn't really accurate...it's a step function (unless you rage starve yourself and can't hit two specials in).

Hmm...actually...heroic strike is off the GCD...and suddenly it's all sorts of tricky again...bleh.

Xodiv
10-19-2010, 08:52 PM
Thinking about maximizing Battle Trance. You want to use Battle Trance for Heroic Strike (or BT I guess), and not for Raging Blow.

Thus, you always want to HS after a BT. I don't know if there is a lag to Battle Trance proccing, there probably is; I will try to test this.

But, you don't want to BT if you won't have enough rage for HS.

Assuming you had guaranteed enough rage the ideal rotation would be:

BT -> HS ==> RB ==> BT -> HS ==> (BSSlam/Shout)

I.e., you don't sync up HS with BT at all, and you don't macro it in. You hit it after BT and before RB or BSSlam.

In fact if you are macroing, the best approach is more likely to be to Macro SS in with everything else except BT, and have the rotation be:

BT ==> SS+RB ==> BT ==> SS+(BSSlam/Shout/Sunder/etc.)

Or if like me you have HS on a button, hit BT on its own, then when the other attack is up hit HS+OtherAbility in quick succession. This will result in best use of Battle Trance and leave you raged starved for RB and BSSlam rather than HS or BT.

Xodiv
10-19-2010, 09:07 PM
Extrapolating random points and ignoring all the well thought out information you provided... are you saying that at most levels of currently available gear would it be a good idea to reforge Crit into Haste?

I don't have a good enough idea of how much missing/dodging hurts DPS, but I believe the best approach is still to cap hit and expertise via reforging, and then to reforge crit into haste until you can at least HS every cooldown. Flurry uptime is still very important, I would not want to drop below 30% buffed crit, but stacking crit for diminishing flurry uptime returns is definitely a poor idea.

TL;DR: I reforged all of my crit into expertise and haste until about 24% haste and 31% crit and have had reasonable results.

Here is a log from Sunday on Heroic Saurfang 25. (http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-c2ujl1oxabrpimk0/details/17/?s=5861&e=6076) I didn't nail my rotation and I only got Heroic DBW on that fight so my trinkets were Herkuml and normal WFS.

Interestingly from that it shows only 3 Battle Trance procs from 50 Bloodthirst attacks instead of 7-8. Either I got unlucky, the proc rate is wrong, or Battle Trance can proc and be consumed server-side without making it to the client. It might be an artifact of the spell queue.

Sparrta
10-19-2010, 09:17 PM
I've researched quite a bit and have not found a clear answer on what fury warriors should be gemming in their yellow sockets. I have mostly heard +10str +10haste or +10str +10crit. So TGM or any other elitist on this forum, which is better at the present moment?

davidsmr
10-19-2010, 11:46 PM
Not sure if this was addressed already. With all the changes to fury, is Tiny abom in a jar worth getting now?

targetman
10-20-2010, 02:14 AM
So, has anyone that has reached the hard hit cap of 27% had a problem with too much rage generation? or is that just never a problem?

I can imagine a scenario in which as we progress through new content and the gear gets better, we will be able to adjust out hit/haste ratio to maintain the "perfect" rage gen rate.

What that perfect rate is who knows yet.

I am sure that if you work hard enough someone could generate a differential equation to map out the rate of change of rage generation in regard to a variable gear level and hit/haste ratio.

However, and the point is, Fury dps seems to me to have become a completely different animal. In wrath it was a basically a faceroll rotation, while spamming heroic strike. As long as you had a nice big graphic to alert you when you got a bloodsurge proc, you could pretty much top the dps charts while watching Frasier reruns and eating a sandwich.(I apologize in advance for anyone offended by the thought that their class/spec was actually this easy to play, but it is the truth as I see it.)

Now, I find that fury dps is a more fluid entity, relying on paying close attention to your rage generation and enrage uptime. It actually feels(to me) like a more organic, "warrior-y" way to play, and I quite enjoy that. I feel like I am performing a balancing act or swimming in an ever-changing current, and I like the fact that I have to react to it.

So stop asking what the perfect numbers are for your stats, and what the perfect rotation is, because that doesn't exist anymore. We all know how to increase rage generation, and we all know how to avoid be rage starved, so all we need to do is find that sweet spot for the gear we are currently in.

I am sorry if I got a bit meta there, but all the discussion of mechanics can sometimes, for me at least, be a detriment to actually playing the game.

I very much appreciate all the hard work put into this theory-crafting, good luck with your equation, as I am certain the results will be extremely useful to all Furys(and possibly even some rogues). In the mean time, have fun swimming the rage/enrage currents, and try to keep your head above water.

Xodiv
10-20-2010, 05:28 AM
Regarding Battle Trance...

I've spent some more time beating on the target dummy, and can confirm there definitely is a delay in Battle Trance procing after a Bloodthirst hit.

Thegreatme
10-20-2010, 06:38 AM
it is entirely possible that haste could be better than strength until you get to the 'ideal' rage generation rate, but accurately determining the value of strength means modeling every single warrior ability and mechanic which is something that is better suited for a spreadsheet.

Loganisis
10-20-2010, 09:27 AM
For Titan's grip

Over an infinate time scale Hit = more landed attacks than Haste per 1% (I promise I will get around to copying it from laptop soon). So really I can't see any scenario where for pure rage generation you'd want haste > hit.

Hit = fewer misses so rage generation is smoother
Hit = more landed hits so more rage.

I can see trying to get haste stacked to the point where Weapon Speed * (1 - haste %) = <3.0 seconds so you'll never go more than 2 GCDs without the chance of white swings (for 3.5 weapon seed that's 15% haste. 3.5 * .85 = 2.975). But that's it.

For Single Minded Fury I can see where Haste could be better than hit. With a 3.5 second swing timer, haste started resulting in more rage over a given interval (on average) than hit at >27% haste.

That is if you have less than 27% haste/hit, you'd see more rage with all hit and zero haste.
27% hit = 27% haste in terms of rage generation (27% hit 0% haste versus 0% hit 27% haste)
And once haste >27% then no hit and all haste would result in more rage generation.

I think that's because you start getting swings so often than the sheer volume of swings becomes overwhelming. So with SMF having shorter swing timers to start, it may hit that inflection point sooner, and it appears to grow compared to hit in value for every additional point (e.g. 28% haste > 27% haste + 1% hit).

This is ONLY for rage generation unless I screwed something up, so I'm sure what the exact impact it would have on DPS and in comparision to strength.

But at least for TG, all hit until 27% is better than any hit + haste in terms of rage generation if I did my math correct.

Loganisis
10-20-2010, 09:39 AM
So, has anyone that has reached the hard hit cap of 27% had a problem with too much rage generation? or is that just never a problem?

I can imagine a scenario in which as we progress through new content and the gear gets better, we will be able to adjust out hit/haste ratio to maintain the "perfect" rage gen rate.

What that perfect rate is who knows yet.

I am sure that if you work hard enough someone could generate a differential equation to map out the rate of change of rage generation in regard to a variable gear level and hit/haste ratio.

However, and the point is, Fury dps seems to me to have become a completely different animal. In wrath it was a basically a faceroll rotation, while spamming heroic strike. As long as you had a nice big graphic to alert you when you got a bloodsurge proc, you could pretty much top the dps charts while watching Frasier reruns and eating a sandwich.(I apologize in advance for anyone offended by the thought that their class/spec was actually this easy to play, but it is the truth as I see it.)

Now, I find that fury dps is a more fluid entity, relying on paying close attention to your rage generation and enrage uptime. It actually feels(to me) like a more organic, "warrior-y" way to play, and I quite enjoy that. I feel like I am performing a balancing act or swimming in an ever-changing current, and I like the fact that I have to react to it.

So stop asking what the perfect numbers are for your stats, and what the perfect rotation is, because that doesn't exist anymore. We all know how to increase rage generation, and we all know how to avoid be rage starved, so all we need to do is find that sweet spot for the gear we are currently in.

I am sorry if I got a bit meta there, but all the discussion of mechanics can sometimes, for me at least, be a detriment to actually playing the game.

I very much appreciate all the hard work put into this theory-crafting, good luck with your equation, as I am certain the results will be extremely useful to all Furys(and possibly even some rogues). In the mean time, have fun swimming the rage/enrage currents, and try to keep your head above water.

There's going to a 'good' point of haste and hit to generate sufficient rage and land enough hits to stay enraged and after that it's going to be a set rotation in all liklihood. BT - TB - BT - HS repeat. Spam Execute. The only 'wrinkle' in the rotation is using Victory Rush procs to help out the healers. Maybe hitting beserker rage every now and then.

Not that there was much there originally, but visually with the loss of WW, Fury is even less visually stimulating than before. To me it seems like it's become very robotic.

Maybe I haven't played it enough post 4.0.1, but from what I have, that's the impression I get.

Gearing wise, I think it's far more dynamic.

I think the stat values are going to be based on Weapon speed because that will impact Haste's relative value. So even a 3.4 versus 3.6 weapon speed could make a difference in realitive stats distribution (a different amount of haste is needed to get under a 3 second swing timer for limiting the lulls in rage generation). So that part is more dynamic.

And SMF versus TG will have a bigger spreads in optimal stats me thinks than Arms and Fury in 3.X.

****

I don't remember who suggested it on these forums initially, but the idea of making haste affect melee GCDs is probably the only way to ever break warriors from having a set rotation. Until then, at most, you're just going to have 1 GCD or so to think about, which was quite similar to WotLK - can I fit this Slam in before the BT or not (did it proc soon enough).

Ronninn
10-20-2010, 09:56 AM
Here are my Herioc Festergut logs from last night. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/b6yeh82cgolzakwp/sum/damageDone/?s=5664&e=5868

I reforged my Haste to Hit, and I eat Expertise food to get that up to 23/26. I've found that so long as my Expertise is above 22 I don't get any dodges at all. I've not Hit capped yet, around 22% in raid, and close to 45% crit and 21% haste.

I've been using the BT>RB>BT>Free rotation and hitting HS when above 60 rage. For the final 20% burn phase it's spam Execute and HS at over 60% rage.

I managed to pull over 21k dps on Festergut this week. If you check out last weeks mess you'll see that I couldn't even pull 10k and the tanks beat the 2 fury warriors. The buffs we picked up and getting used to the rotation have been a substantial gain in dps.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Kael%27thas&cn=Ronninn

Edit, for Free I've been using Bloodsurge Procs, or shouts. I use my Deathwish at the start of the fight to coincided with DBW proc, then when that expires if I'm not enraged I use my Berserker Rage. If I have a bad streak without any enrages I'll slip in my Recklessness for the 12 seconds of enrage, and the use Berserker Rage on cooldown when I'm not enraged.

I also make a point of saving my last Deathwish for the Execute phase of the fight.

Quietsch
10-20-2010, 01:21 PM
Hit/haste:

I still fail to see why people are saying hit is better than haste. for a 1% increase of either stat you get a 1% net increase of attacks landing, resulting in the same DPS gain, and the same rage gain.

I could easily be missing something here, and if this is indeed the case, let me know.

So, i finally got the mathematical, and because of that understandable solution for this. :P

The base is the hit per second formula. 1/(Weaponspeed/(1+haste%))*(1-(0,24-hit%))
You can convert (not sure if the word is right) it into ((1+haste%)*(0,76+hit%))/weaponspeed.
Now you have the two scalingfactors of the hits per second, haste and hit, with have each a constant (1 respectively 0,76 (and in the case that you include buffs, also flurry and the 10% haste buff)) and a variable, which you can influence.
Because of those constants, hit is 'stronger' than haste, because the effect of hit on the hit-part of the calculation is higher, as the constant is lower, so the region (and again, i can't find a appropriate word...) which is hit is greater.
for example you can compare 10% haste to 10% hit.
10% haste = (1,1*0,76)/weaponspeed = 0,836/wpnspd
0,076/wpnspd hits more, compared to 0% hit/haste (10% more)
10% hit = (1*0,86)/weaponspeed = 0,86/wpnspd
0,1/wpnspd hits more, compared to 0% hit/haste (~13% more)

so you see, that you get more profit out of 10% hit, than 10% haste, so hit > haste.

Other question: Is rb normalized, or not? As i can't login atm, i can't test it. :(

Sparrta
10-20-2010, 01:28 PM
I've researched quite a bit and have not found a clear answer on what fury warriors should be gemming in their yellow sockets. It seems to be between +10str +10haste or +10str +10crit. So TGM or any other elitist on this forum, which is better at the present moment?

Xodiv
10-20-2010, 02:28 PM
Regarding Enrage...

It is clear from the combat logs that you cannot be Enraged (+10% dmg) while Death Wish (+20% dmg) is up. Casting Death Wish will cancel any current Enrage buff, and Enrage does not proc while Death Wish is up. This either reduces the value of Death Wish, or reduces the value of gearing for increased Enrage uptime, depending on how you look at it.

@Sparrta: nobody knows for sure, and really until 85 it doesn't matter that much. Either would be fine. There is not yet a good enough combat model to accurately answer those kinds of questions.

Ion
10-20-2010, 02:29 PM
Regarding Enrage...

It is clear from the combat logs that you cannot be Enraged (+10% dmg) while Death Wish (+20% dmg) is up. Casting Death Wish will cancel any current Enrage buff, and Enrage does not proc while Death Wish is up. This either reduces the value of Death Wish, or reduces the value of gearing for increased Enrage uptime, depending on how you look at it.

@Sparrta: nobody knows for sure, and really until 85 it doesn't matter that much. Either would be fine. There is not yet a good enough combat model to accurately answer those kinds of questions (and it's debatable if it would be worth making one for a rotation lasting just a few months and likely to be tweaked in the meantime by Blizzard).

You don't gear to increase enrage uptime, particularly, it's just a side-effect of gearing to maximize rage gain.

Xodiv
10-20-2010, 02:53 PM
@Ion. I think you have misunderstood me. I am not suggesting people are doing so, and I'm not focused on advising people on how to gear for 4.0.1 because until 85 we are in junk time. My goal is to gather evidence and math towards a comprehensive combat model - what is needed to answer questions about what stats and gear produce the best DPS.

In a Fury warrior combat model increased Enrage uptime has a DPS benefit, and stats that increase Enrage uptime have a DPS benefit. As a result of Enrage and Death Wish not stacking that value, that formula, and contribution to the value of those stats from that reason, is reduced.

Perhaps I'm confusing people by posting all this in the wrong thread, and I should start a new one titled "Fury Theorycrafting for 4.0/Cataclysm" which is separate from advice for today.

Ion
10-20-2010, 03:06 PM

Things WILL change, speculating about how we're going to gear at 85 is fairly pointless because I'm absolutely positive that they won't let Heroic Strike be our best attack like it is right now. The design goal for Heroic Strike is to be used as a rage dump, not to be the #1 attack in the first 80% of the fight.

Also, my point stands...Enrage's uptime is modified by exactly the same stats that rage generation is. It's a side-effect, not the goal. That, I am fairly sure, will remain the case. The idea isn't for warriors to be in an infinite rage situation anymore...so gearing for rage gen is basically what we're going to be doing. A side effect of that will be increased Enrage uptime (outside of Death Wish).

Xodiv
10-20-2010, 03:15 PM
The base is the hit per second formula. 1/(Weaponspeed/(1+haste%))*(1-(0,24-hit%))
You can convert (not sure if the word is right) it into ((1+haste%)*(0,76+hit%))/weaponspeed.

Error in my math, removed.

Quietsch
10-20-2010, 03:30 PM
expertise is irrelevant, as dodged swings grant the same rage like landing. (or i have looked wrong at my ragebar)
and what you're writing there is exactly the same, as i did, until you don't to the step from ((1+haste)/weaponspeed)*(0,76+hit) to ((1+haste%)*(0,76+hit%))/weaponspeed
(x/y)*z is exactly the same as (xz)/y
.27 is in fact the same a my .24, as you take the rating from the paperdoll with factored in precision, while i mean only the % over rating.

Xodiv
10-20-2010, 03:36 PM
You are quite correct.

Garbid
10-21-2010, 12:42 AM
1 thing I don't get, maybe I'm just confused or my gear difference to those of you posting so far has some effect. But the HS > BT > RB prio doesn't seem right to me. Did a few tests on the dummy and this is what I found out:
HS = 359 dmg per point of rage
BT = 384 per rage
RB = 521 per rage
Slam = 236 per rage
These numbers will of course vary from player to player based on gear, but I doubt the order of them changes. I have no extra mastery so RB can only get better.

So even if your doing your highest crits with HS, it's just not worth prio it over BT and RB.

My rotation is therefor:
BT -> RB -> BT -> filler
and by filler I mean heroic throw or battle/commanding shout for rage (use slam only if your overflowing in rage)
And add in HS whenever I can without ragestarving me (and it's usually spamming though I do have to hold back once in a while).

These are my stats unbuffed if you are wondering:
5305 AP
19.99% haste
20.59% hit
34.05% crit
32 expertise (yes I know, I'm usually prot and only get dps leftover gear)
8 mastery (the innate 8, nothing reforged to it)
271 and 264 2-handed weapons.

Blubbey
10-21-2010, 04:18 AM
Not sure if it's been mentioned but I saw a post on the WoW warrior board saying the SMF damage buff carries over to TG unintentionally (aka a bug). http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=27387359427&sid=1

I'm unable to play at the moment, would anyone like to try it out?

Kazeyonoma
10-21-2010, 10:28 AM
while damage per rage is an important statistic, when caring about full on damage output, you want highest damage output priority. so if HS is your hardest hitting, you prioritize your rage for it. and work to maintain a safe haste level to keep up HS, while the rest of your rotation.

Ion
10-21-2010, 10:54 AM
while damage per rage is an important statistic, when caring about full on damage output, you want highest damage output priority. so if HS is your hardest hitting, you prioritize your rage for it. and work to maintain a safe haste level to keep up HS, while the rest of your rotation.

Additionally, only Bloodthirst procs Battle Trance, so prioritizing that saves you a fairly significant amount of rage off of your total usage...if you hit BT on every CD for a 4 minute fight you'd get about 12 Battle Trance procs on average, potentially saving you 360 rage (if you managed to use it for HS each time)...which is no joke...18 raging blows worth of rage.

Garbid
10-21-2010, 12:51 PM
while damage per rage is an important statistic, when caring about full on damage output, you want highest damage output priority. so if HS is your hardest hitting, you prioritize your rage for it. and work to maintain a safe haste level to keep up HS, while the rest of your rotation.

If you were only getting 30 rage per 1.5 sec (hypothetical) you'd be doing just pure HS, mine were hitting for an average of 11-12k.
Over a course of 1 min you'd be doing 40 attacks.
In the same time with same rage I'd be doing 6x Raging blows and HS the rest of my rage which is in te neighbourhood of 36x HS.
My raging blow is only hitting for about 1k less then HS. So overall dmg by you is 480k and mine would be 432+66=498.
Each time you hit Raging Blow your hitting with both weapons, so even if your log says it's only hitting for 5.5k on average, each time you hit the button your making 2 attacks for 7.5k mainhand, 3.5k offhand (guessed ratio but you get what I mean). Totalled to 11k hit on averrage for pressing a 20rage Raging blow, HS gives 12k on average but for 30 rage.

In fights where rage isn't an issue, you'd be able to keep up BT-RB-BT-filler anyways with spamming HS so that doesn't really matter, it only matters when rage is low.

Ship
10-25-2010, 12:55 AM
Changed my stats to 27% hit. Rage is no longer any problem. Also doing a hell of a lot higher dps on bosses now.
But I do see, in recount, misses. Read some where that actual hitcap is 28% for warriors. Looking on the hit stats, 27% says no misses on lvl83 boss, but I do miss slightly. Expertise above 6,5% gives no chance for bosses to dodge but a small chance of parry. I see parry as well as a dps in recount. Glansing is also a small decrease. But what worries me is the fact that a few percent is missed, with 27,04% hit.

Ion
10-25-2010, 02:02 PM
You shouldn't be seeing parries (or, at least, not often enough to worry about them when gearing) since they only happen from the front.

As to misses...unless you had some hit debuff you shouldn't be seeing any with 738+ hit rating...I'd be interested to see the log if you did, though.

DarkraveR
10-26-2010, 07:56 AM
So what is best now to reforge haste>hit or crit>hit? And should i gem +10 strength +10 haste or +10 strength +10 crit?

Ion
10-26-2010, 05:48 PM
So what is best now to reforge haste>hit or crit>hit? And should i gem +10 strength +10 haste or +10 strength +10 crit?

I haven't been willing to spend vast quantities of cash to determine the exact answer to this, however I personally reforged crit to hit and gemmed some hit too (in blue sockets) and gemmed str/haste in yellow sockets with pretty decent results..

Unger
10-26-2010, 06:45 PM
check to make sure that the hit you are looking at is your melee hit and not your spell hit (which was higher on my page than melee hit). That would account for the misses.

Bung
10-27-2010, 06:14 AM
I reforged my gear to reach 27% hit with 25% haste. It wasn't very effective with only 32% crit. I scaled back my haste to 18.5% and my crit is now at 38.5%. I'm doing much more dps.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Area+52&cn=Bungholiolio

It is similar if not more damage then prior to the patch. My assumption is that there is a balance needed between haste and crit (although I'm not sure at what point). Gimping crit for haste seems to not work very well. It could be based on weapon speed but I'm not a math person. On another topic...I've seen warriors still using cleave in multiple mob situations. I haven't seen much about cleave in this thread. Does anyone think that cleave is still that effective? I'm assuming based on recount that the warriors I ran with were replacing HS with cleave in aoe situations. I was also wondering if whirlwind was actually worth using. It is +6 or more mobs use whirlwind? Take whirlwind off my bar? Just my thoughts....discuss.

Thegreatme
10-27-2010, 08:44 AM
Ok, I finally finished what I started. Enrage uptime equation is complete I'm still debating putting the fully expanded version in the thread, but the explanation of how everything works is there so you can figure it out if you so desire.

EDIT: I fully expanded everything in word. it is hilarious. the equation is 12 pages long at 11pt font, and has 48,508 characters.

Bung
10-29-2010, 03:54 AM
Reforging Haste to 27% and reducing crit to 32%...fail? IS there a better balance? Someone please give me some advice cause I see many warriors still with 40% crit.

Thegreatme
10-29-2010, 06:47 AM
there is no hard set answer of "get exactly this much haste." once you get ~20% haste unbuffed, chances are that you are going to start running in to rage capping issues once raid damage is introduced, and as such haste starts to become devalued. I would suggest reading this post (http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t106912-fury_dps_4_0_cataclysm/p5/#post1785163) because it does a good job of explaining this, though with out doing any calculations my gut feeling is that his numbers might be a tiny bit low for the value of haste.

Bung
10-29-2010, 08:53 AM
Thanks I read that link. Very informative. So at this point it seems the theory is that the "war academy spec" of 3/31/2 benefits someone with high crit numbers and less haste. The "incite" spec of 2/31/3 is much better for someone who can't manage to get high crit levels after reforging. Making haste the better stat. In both cases hard capping hit and soft capping expertise is a must. Every player has different gear so there seems to be two viable options. Gemming strength seems ideal. Strength based gear is far better than agility based gear. So if you go 3/31/2 you should reforge hit from haste on gear, if you go 2/31/3 you should reforge hit from crit. The end results should be something like this (edited to include priority):

3/31/2 Spec
27% hit
10%+ haste
45%+ crit
expertise (23) on character sheet until level 85 is avail then (26)
Priority BT>RB>slam, HS when rage is 60+

2/31/3 Spec
27% hit
20-25% haste
33%+ crit
expertise (23) on character sheet until level 85 is avail then its (26)
Priority is HS>BT>RB>slam

Ion
10-29-2010, 09:59 AM
It's apparently 23: http://blue.mmo-champion.com/t/27397547423/expertise-cap-bugged-fixed-as-is/

Due to recalibrating expertise for Cataclysm, level 80-83 creatures (which includes bosses) dodge and parry less, so you need less expertise, 23, to be exact. Sorry we didn't announce this. I would classify it as an unintended consequence (though not unknown) and not a desired change on our part.

At level 85, you will need 26 again.

Which meshes fairly well with what people were seeing in testing.

Thegreatme
10-30-2010, 09:11 PM
If anyone wants to help me fix what ever dumb mistakes I keep making with this enrage uptimes spreadsheet, I greatly appreciate it.
there are notes in the spreadsheet to help get you started.

Currently stat inputs seem to be scaling properly, but my equations are full of error right now and are giving inaccurate results, and I can't seem to isolate said errors for the life of me.

I would also appreciate if people would post some Sarufang/festergut parses, and include their MH/OH base speeds, how much haste they have, and their buffed crit. This will help me get a feel for how much enrage uptime people are seeing at varying stat values so I can make sure the spreadsheet is at least fairly accurate.

If you have any questions about the spreadsheet feel free to ask, if you help me fix the problems so the spreadsheet can be more accurate, I will give you my first born.

Sa1k3n
11-01-2010, 06:24 AM
What is the UI called that you are using for this Video?

Thegreatme
11-01-2010, 06:42 AM
don't mind my math. I've been doing everything the hard/dumb/wrong/long/etc. way. I'll get my spreadsheet working and accurate probably by the end of the day. then I can start working in calculating the value of mastery in to the spreadsheet.

as for my UI, it's custom, so I suppose you could call it TGM UI. the link in my sig is old as hell and I'll probably update it sometime before the expansion drops but I make no guarentees/

Thegreatme
11-01-2010, 11:25 AM
alright, I'm fairly certain the spreadsheet is at least fairly accurate now:
take it and break it by comparing it to every single target parse you can get your hands on.

includes:
Enrage stuff
mastery stuff
Rage stuff

I'll see what I can do about making it even more accurate so that it can account for things like trinket procs and what not. I also plan to see what I can do about making it accurate for single minded fury as well (currently it's only accurate for TG)

Shinodon
11-01-2010, 02:25 PM
I am not sold on this 27% hit. My guild ran 25 Halion Sat night and myself and one other fury warrior had 27% hit and our other fury warrior had not changed a thing to hit , and he only have like 11% and he was still hanging right there with us. If not pulling ahead a time or two but in the end we still came out above, but only by 1k'ish and us Wariors were still in top 5 before the split.

So I dropped down to 22% hit and I will see how this goes.

Nez
11-02-2010, 08:01 AM
I would suggest you use a non-moving fight for comparing your DPS. Hallion is pretty RNG. With hit that low on anything that does not have a ton of raid damage you will be rage starved. He was just good at standing if Fire for rage. lol
:D

Shinodon
11-02-2010, 02:14 PM
I am pretty sure he wasn't. it was kinda the same on os 25 zerg. I dropped to 22% hit and I am still seeing the same dps. no rage loss.

Thegreatme
11-02-2010, 02:55 PM
Both of those fights have plenty of AOE damage that can skew the value of rage generation. no matter what way you reforge your gear, the DPS gain/loss is never going to be massive, but it will be there.

EDIT:

I worked some more on my spreadsheet today to make it more accurate. I'll keep the link to the most recent version my original post

Quietsch
11-05-2010, 12:53 PM
Expertise: same value as beforeIf you want to say with the before, that expt has the same value than hit, it's wrong, as it doesn't influence the rage gain. (Or to be exact: not (nearly) as much as hit)

Nez
11-05-2010, 04:00 PM
If you want to say with the before, that expt has the same value than hit, it's wrong, as it doesn't influence the rage gain. (Or to be exact: not (nearly) as much as hit)

I am pretty sure he meant, that you need the same amount of expertise as you did Pre patch 4.0

Thegreatme
11-06-2010, 12:30 PM
I am pretty sure he meant, that you need the same amount of expertise as you did Pre patch 4.0
which you don't, so I'll change that in the OP.

Nez
11-06-2010, 01:41 PM
which you don't, so I'll change that in the OP.

Until you hit 85.
:D

jettzypher
11-08-2010, 07:56 AM
so before i make changes i just want to clarify (as this seemed to have been cast to the wayside). mastery is worthless, atleast for right now correct?

Ship
11-08-2010, 12:41 PM
so before i make changes i just want to clarify (as this seemed to have been cast to the wayside). mastery is worthless, atleast for right now correct?

Yes, completely useless. Might even be useless at lvl85.

Thegreatme
11-08-2010, 12:43 PM
it's not completely useless as it has some DPS value, but said DPS value is quite low, making mastery something that is nifty to have, but it's nothing that you should go out of your way to get.

Ship
11-08-2010, 12:49 PM
Update,
Me and other fury warrior in guild are now top dps. A great improvement since intro of patch. Havn't got any really big rage problems. Can not put a brick on the keyboard as b4 4.01, but is getting a lot of HS anyways. Rotation is now very simple with semi-spamming HS and BT-RB-BT. Not using instant slam as it is a /slap only. Maybe if they take rage 15 away I will start using it in the rotation, but b4 that its a complete waste.
With current dps I would expect fury to be nerfed, but maybe they wount as cata is so close.

Ship
11-08-2010, 12:51 PM
it's not completely useless as it has some DPS value, but said DPS value is quite low, making mastery something that is nifty to have, but it's nothing that you should go out of your way to get.

Reforged Mastery and seen a big drop. Reforged back immidiately.

MaorMcCheese
11-10-2010, 02:30 AM
OK, I'm seeing success in my set up, but I continue to get criticism on gemming. I'm pulling 12-14k constantly on regular 10m LK attempts, I've reforged and gemmed to 27% hit, sitting at @ 38% crit, but only a 15.58% haste. The criticism I'm getting is the crit gems that i didn't replace after they replaced the ArP gems I was loaded with prior to 4.0.1. My question would be then do I swap out those crit gems for str gems as I've been advised or keep with my current set up? I easily am topping my guilds DPS charts on LK by several K, at times as much as 4k difference, so I'm a bit hesitant to change.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Nesingwary&cn=Maor

I know i need to regem the chest to take advantage of the socket bonus, but other than that I'm open for suggestions and criticism.

jettzypher
11-10-2010, 08:00 AM
depending on youre rage generation you could do well to replace some with str/haste gems

Squirrelnut
11-10-2010, 08:27 AM
For all Fury Warriors that are a little hesitant on gems....

RED SOCKET = 20 Str (Bold Cardinal Ruby)
YELLOW SOCKET = 10 Str / 10 Crit (Inscribed Ametrine)
BLUE SOCKET = 10 Str / 10 Hit (Etched Dreadstone)

There is no question or argument, all Fury Warriors should be gemming based on that right now. This is due to the fact that currently Stat priority is Hit until cap > Expertise until cap > Str > Crit = Haste > Mastery

Due to the fact that matching sockets gives you socket bonuses you are by far best served by using the gems mentioned above in the sockets as listed so that you benefit from all socket bonuses. Once that is done you can then review your gear and reforge to reach all caps:

27% Hit
As much Str/Crit/Haste as you can get

If you follow those basic approaches you will be min/maxed correctly and people in your guild will stop yappin. The most important thing is to min/max so that your performance is the best it can be. It doesn't matter if you top the charts, your competition should be with yourself to do the best that you possibly can and leaving Crit gems is a total waste.

EDIT: After glancing at your armory...
- Re-gem your chest based on list above
- Big one, Re-spec and get 2/3 Incite (Prot Tree), if you are raiding it is a HUGE waste to have Field Dressing at the cost of losing Incite

TomHuxley
11-10-2010, 02:32 PM
Hey guys, thanks for this thread, it's inspired me to give Fury another shot (I get decent numbers from Arms, but I'd always prefer to do more DPS all things considered). I was wondering how important weapon damage is relative to stats? Specifically, I have lots of ilvl 251 weapons from ICC (all of them, actually) but had been thinking about getting an ilvl 264 pvp weapon since Arms is fairly dependent on weapon damage. Obviously the pvp weapons sacrifice a good chunk of DPS stats, so is the half-tier upgrade worth the stats loss in a fury build?

Quietsch
11-11-2010, 04:12 AM
RB, Whitehits (, WW (unimportant for singletarget) and Slam (very low dmg, so also more or less unimportant)) scale with weapondmg.
So it's a relative little dps gain (only from the weapondps). It depends mostly on which weapons you could change (so statloss/-gain, speedchange).

Bung
11-11-2010, 04:20 AM
So what is the theory crafting once we start leveling. At 81 spec 3/31/3 then respec at 85 to get deep wounds? I'm also thinking that crit levels will be more important with a deep wounds spec, reducing the need for more than 10-15% haste. Any thoughts?

TomHuxley
11-11-2010, 09:52 AM
Any thoughts on OH weapon enchant? I have dual zerker atm, but that's just because when I was Arms it was the go-to enchant for every weapon. I know the proc doesn't stack, so is the increase in uptime worth sacrificing a static stat increase on the second weapon?

Quietsch
11-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Any thoughts on OH weapon enchant? I have dual zerker atm, but that's just because when I was Arms it was the go-to enchant for every weapon. I know the proc doesn't stack, so is the increase in uptime worth sacrificing a static stat increase on the second weapon?
Are you sure? The last time I played TG, it stacked.

TomHuxley
11-11-2010, 10:54 AM
Are you sure? The last time I played TG, it stacked.

Then I'm not sure...

...and looking at wowhead, I see I was wrong. Awesome, that answers that. Thanks :-)

TomHuxley
11-11-2010, 02:28 PM
So, all of this makes great sense and has born out in brief practice; thanks so much to TGM, Squirrelnut, and all the others who did the hard work to clarify Fury.

My only question at this point is what is the AOE rotation? Obviously WW off of CD; I'd guess Cleave after that...Piercing Howl?...any other priorities?

Pek
11-11-2010, 09:17 PM
WW, Cleave, Bloodthirst, Raging blow and Victory Rush. Piercing howl only slows movement.

Prucilak
11-12-2010, 08:03 AM
it's not completely useless as it has some DPS value, but said DPS value is quite low, making mastery something that is nifty to have, but it's nothing that you should go out of your way to get.
Could you please explain to me how fury war mastery works? As much as I read it, I cant seem to grasp it. :(

TmanTrex
11-12-2010, 01:43 PM
Ok so I've been following the thread and making my adjustments to my gear. I want to thank TGM, Squirrel and everyone else for all of the great info. But I seemed to have missed the weapon enchant part. So for fury it's still stack Berzerking on both weapons now? or are there alternatives now? Thanks for the help.

Squirrelnut
11-12-2010, 01:44 PM
Still Berserking on both till Cata

elio
11-14-2010, 09:27 AM
Quick questions on trinkets: I am currently using http://www.wowhead.com/item=50342 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=50355. Is the Tiny Abom an upgrade, since hit cap has become important milestone to hit in fury, post 4.0.

Macar
11-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Quick questions on trinkets: I am currently using http://www.wowhead.com/item=50342 and http://www.wowhead.com/item=50355. Is the Tiny Abom an upgrade, since hit cap has become important milestone to hit in fury, post 4.0.

My experience from tests on the Boss dummy is that both those trinkets are close to each other, when it comes to DPS output. I did 8 minute tests a hile ago, and DPS was about the same.

Blubbey
11-15-2010, 10:37 AM
Don't forget though that self buffed dummy dps =/= raid buff boss dps. Get it if you can and try out the different combinations while raid buffed. That's probably not what you want to hear but ofc it's the only way to be sure.

Squirrelnut
11-15-2010, 11:03 AM
As with almost all other gear related questions... it depends on your particular stats. Yes reaching hit cap for Fury is VERY important currently, however you have the capability to reforge so 27% hit can be reached fairly easily with decent gear.

In your particular case regarding Whispering Fanged Skull, Herkuml War Token & Tiny Abom I would tend to prefer the first two because crit is very helpful in maintaining good Flurry up-time while Herkumal both improves haste as well as AP. Haste is a pretty good stat for Fury currently as it helps rage gen and allows you to spam Heroic Strike without becoming rage deprived.

I would tend to expect scaling in raids to benefit your current 2 trinkets but the best approach would be to record a couple weeks of testing on benchmark fights such as Saurfang & Festergut with different combinations to see what results you get. With all that being said, I have always passed on the Tiny Abom as other classes really want it and it has seemed like a side-grade at best for Warriors.

elio
11-15-2010, 05:39 PM
Thanks Squirrel- it was gonna be sharded so I took it to try it out.

Will try next couple weeks with benchmark fights.

Prucilak
11-16-2010, 10:44 AM
I guess no one can explain fury mastery huh? :(

Squirrelnut
11-16-2010, 10:50 AM
No one cares enough to try beyond what was already mentioned in the original post:

Mastery:
Deathwish component:
per 1pt of mastery you gain 0.0626% extra damage from DW
DW has a CD of 144s with 2/2 intensify rage, and lasts 30s

30/144=20.83% uptime
0.626*.2083=0.013041% overall damage increase from DW

Enrage component:
per 1pt of mastery you gain 0.313% extra damage from enrage
I don't have an accurate value for an average enrage uptime, so per the % damage gain from enrage is this:
0.0313*X
X= uptime
it's a nice linear equation, if you can't visualize it just google an online graphing calculator.
this means that we can add the two together and simply say the value of mastery is
1pt= (0.0313*X+0.013041)*100 % DPS increase
PS. the above math is wildly inaccurate. it does not account for increasing RB damage and it doesn't account for a lot of things.

Essentially Mastery, although interesting, simply doesn't provide enough value right now at lvl80 to be worth taking over alternative stats. It improves enrage effects but that doesn't translate into high enough DPS numbers to really compare at this point. As such, the priority seems to remain: Str > Crit = Haste > Mastery while being sure to maintain 27% hit and 23 expertise.

It will be re-evaluated come 85.