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Satorri
12-28-2010, 03:26 PM
Why was I hoping you disappeared? =)

The long and short of haste (forgive the brevity and lack of math here), is that it *does* play a nice survival value coupled with a focus on Mastery, but the gains are less than you would get from other values like more Mastery and more Avoidance.

It will *feel* nice to speed up your runes, but you won't get major gains.


For Arclyte and anyone else who is wondering, I am going to update my calculations to confirm the relative value at 85, but I am not expecting it to be wildly different. Chances are that you will have the same split schools in which you can invest:
1.) Max Mastery and make sure you make heavy duty use of DS.
2.) Max Avoidance and worry less about DS vs your other threat abilities.

Regardless of what style you pick, and I haven't seen reason to believe one is *vastly* superior, though I will show my math on which will give you the numerical edge, I can say this with high confidence:
APPLY YOUR TANK DEBUFFS!

I cry every time I watch a DK or other tank *not* using their 10% damage reduction and 20% attack speed reduction. They are as significant as the sum of your gear, or when you press your big defensive cooldowns. Spare your healer some grief!

Leucifer
12-28-2010, 03:47 PM
Why was I hoping you disappeared? =)

Just ribbing ya. :) Really good guide. Thank you for presenting it to us.



The long and short of haste (forgive the brevity and lack of math here), is that it *does* play a nice survival value coupled with a focus on Mastery, but the gains are less than you would get from other values like more Mastery and more Avoidance.

It will *feel* nice to speed up your runes, but you won't get major gains.

Any improvement on the cooldown is appreciated. One thing I have noticed, ALL cooldowns are 1 second longer than they actually "are" because Blizzard, for some strange reason, has decided to count a zero second, and then the ability resets in the second after that. You will probably think I'm crazy, but time something.... deathstrike... whatever.... and tell me what you find. I thought I was nuts too because it just felt off. Then I timed it......

Take a look for yourself.



For Arclyte and anyone else who is wondering, I am going to update my calculations to confirm the relative value at 85, but I am not expecting it to be wildly different. Chances are that you will have the same split schools in which you can invest:
1.) Max Mastery and make sure you make heavy duty use of DS.
2.) Max Avoidance and worry less about DS vs your other threat abilities.

Regardless of what style you pick, and I haven't seen reason to believe one is *vastly* superior, though I will show my math on which will give you the numerical edge,

Will be very interesting to see the results.


I can say this with high confidence:
APPLY YOUR TANK DEBUFFS!

I cry every time I watch a DK or other tank *not* using their 10% damage reduction and 20% attack speed reduction. They are as significant as the sum of your gear, or when you press your big defensive cooldowns. Spare your healer some grief!

Can't support that last statement enough!!!! Survival is a real issue in Cata so far. Healers are really having a fun time trying to keep up. Now, with dps having 100k+ health pools, the healer has to deal with 4 mana sponges (including themselves) in addition to the tank. I'm seeing "OOM" a lot more frequently.

My advice:

- Tank debuffs always up. This means diseases on target at all times + blood boil/disease debuff up.
- Stagger your abilities the best you can. It can be done. Use heart strike to renew blade barrier. Pop deathstrike after that. Then hit blood boil to refresh its debuff and kick blade barrier back up. Those three alone should be staggered to ALWAYS ensure some type of damage reduction.
- Use of vampiric blood / rune tap to augment your healer.

Anyway, thanks again Satorri for enlightenment. :)

Uranos7
12-29-2010, 07:20 AM
As a Tank ty for clarifying issues for me.
As a healer TY for stressing avoidance I have seen way to many tanks stubbornly holding on to Stam sponge technique and directed them here for "schooling". lol

Leucifer
12-29-2010, 10:36 AM
Just wanted to clarify something I posted earlier. I know I probably had a few people scratching their heads wondering wtf I meant.



That in mind, I've kinda taken a look at the survival tools for a blood DK and see it can be broken down into basic tiers as to their value to our survivability and the effectiveness of these abilities. As I see it currently, this is how I'd break these down:

Primary - Always on, high returns/effectiveness

Avoidance (dodge/parry)
Stamina/Health

Secondary - Mid to low frequency* with high returns OR high to mid frequency* with moderate to low returns

IBF - high damage reduction
AMS - high damage reduction
Vamp Blood - Improves healer's mana efficiency, BIG VALUE currently
Blade Barrier - with new rune cooldown mechanic, more up-time
Rune Tap - on demand heals for 15% of base health, and can be group heals also
Lichborne/DeathCoil Combo - (see OP)

Tertiary - Low frequency* with mid to low returns

DS - high rune investment, duration short, value as a minor cooldown (regardless of mastery level)
Blood Worms - hard to time, low chance, group heal though
Bone Shield - low to moderate effectiveness, long wait to reuse

(*Frequency = ability's effective uptime)

What I mean by frequency is: Each ability has a certain duration given a certain cooldown time. IBF with say, a 12 second duration with a three minute cooldown period before it can be used again, has a lower frequency than say DS with a 3 second duration (assuming timing on next hit) and a 10 second cooldown period (assuming that a FU pair was used and we have to wait for that same pair to refresh). That in mind, the first we could say has a 1:15 ratio of seconds of usefulness to seconds of downtime, and the second, a 1:3.

With IBF though, we have a static ratio. It doesn't change with the exception of available rune power. It's a very stable and consistent 1:15. With DS though, we're dependent on an active pairing of FU runes, with each having a 10 second cooldown. DS in some instances could very easily be a 1:6 if you're waiting on runes. Theoretically, if you REALLY screw up your rune sequence, you could drive that up even higher. Say you use a frost to tag a mob that is wandering into the group, or an unholy to drop DnD on a group that has aggro'ed a party member, you've thrown the pairings out of sequence and will have to wait additional time before you can use that survival ability.

Then you take into account the effectiveness. IBF is a 20% reduction in damage for 12 sec. Depending on timing, this could be a significant damage reduction.

I did a quick calc just to show relative value of these abilities. The attachment is rough, but details out a rough scenario.

Over the first 12 seconds that IBF is in effect, it's value FAR surpasses the value of DS over the first 12 seconds. It reduces a flat 16k out of 80k worth of hits. DS only effectively reduces 11875, combining heals and damage reduction. Where death strike REALLY sees it's value is over the full-duration, where it's relative value increase compared to IBF.

Conclusions?

1) Death Strike and its mastery is great for the long haul of a fight, where its real value shines as a frequent, low effect damage reduction / survival tool. This should be a considerable benefit to healers as it should reduce the burden on them.

2) Death Strike will probably see best use as a recovery tool post-large hit, used to purchase the tank quick heals and to buy the tank/healer a small reprieve from the next hit for recovery. It is a damage recovery device. It will shine here because it is based off of the previous 5 seconds, which involved a large hit.

3) Death Strike should NOT be used in anticipation of a big hit as a damage preventative, as it draws value from the previous 5 sec worth of damage. It is not as effective as a damage prevention device in this case. Don't count on it to keep you from dying.

The ultimate conclusion I draw is this:
Used in conjunction with blade barrier and blood boil's associated disease effect, death strike functions as a consistent low-level damage reduction benefit, and to reduce the workload on the tank healer. The second function is post-big-hit tank recovery.


All that said, death strike is a key tool to the DK tank. It however, isn't radically different than before. If anything, it's been modified to account for the burden on healers after the large hits, where a healer has to contend with the tank's large health pool.

Urythmic
12-29-2010, 11:27 AM
APPLY YOUR TANK DEBUFFS!

I cry every time I watch a DK or other tank *not* using their 10% damage reduction and 20% attack speed reduction. They are as significant as the sum of your gear, or when you press your big defensive cooldowns. Spare your healer some grief!

I definitely agree with this.

In general, I think the Cataclysm changes are proving to be very fun, giving you a lot more to think about during combat and a lot more interesting choices in the way you want to play.

I've even been pleasantly surprised at how fun and rewarding it can be to use Dark Simulacrum, which I totally did not expect.

Really good fun stuff all around, I'd say.



My advice:

- Tank debuffs always up. This means diseases on target at all times + blood boil/disease debuff up.
- Stagger your abilities the best you can. It can be done. Use heart strike to renew blade barrier. Pop deathstrike after that. Then hit blood boil to refresh its debuff and kick blade barrier back up. Those three alone should be staggered to ALWAYS ensure some type of damage reduction.
- Use of vampiric blood / rune tap to augment your healer.


Very good points.

One interesting thing I've noticed is that PvP-style specs seem a lot more viable for PvE in Cataclysm than they did in Wrath.

I've been having a lot of fun trying out a self-healing Lichborne spec with emphasis on interrupts (33/8/0 (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGrbsMruszG0ob:0sozRacz0)). Being able to cast a free Mind Freeze every 10 seconds is a huge defensive advantage in a lot of fights. It can save your healer a ton of grief (and mana), especially if the next big blast you interrupted was an AoE attack hitting the whole party or a nasty debuff that would need to be dispelled, etc. If you have even one other person in the group who is good with interrupts, you can almost completely lockdown a caster and make a fight go much, much easier.

Sure, once you get into a raid setting where you have plenty of other folks who can handle the same duties, then you may be better off using those points elsewhere, but that will depend a lot on the specifics of the fight, your raid composition, etc. Even if it doesn't work in every case, it's pretty hard to argue with a defensive ability you can use that often without depleting any of your other abilities.

Leucifer
12-29-2010, 12:04 PM
One interesting thing I've noticed is that PvP-style specs seem a lot more viable for PvE in Cataclysm than they did in Wrath.

Heheh. Try sub rogue for dps in dungeons. It's a clasic pvp spec but I'm running it with an emphasis on backstab crits. Once you get slice and dice up, can stand behind a target and slam 11-13k crits with backstab all day long.An alternative I've played with is with recuperate specced. Higher energy replenishment from that increases ability usage and gives a damage reduction too.

Same is true with hunter. All of my guildmates are running survival as it's leading the pack in dps.



I've been having a lot of fun trying out a self-healing Lichborne spec with emphasis on interrupts (33/8/0 (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGrbsMruszG0ob:0sozRacz0)). Being able to cast a free Mind Freeze every 10 seconds is a huge defensive advantage in a lot of fights. It can save your healer a ton of grief (and mana), especially if the next big blast you interrupted was an AoE attack hitting the whole party or a nasty debuff that would need to be dispelled, etc. If you have even one other person in the group who is good with interrupts, you can almost completely lockdown a caster and make a fight go much, much easier.

Sure, once you get into a raid setting where you have plenty of other folks who can handle the same duties, then you may be better off using those points elsewhere, but that will depend a lot on the specifics of the fight, your raid composition, etc. Even if it doesn't work in every case, it's pretty hard to argue with a defensive ability you can use that often without depleting any of your other abilities.

Easy macro for the Lichborne heals......

/cast Lichborne;
/cast [@player] Death Coil

Spam that button and it'll cycle what it can use, which, after you pop Lichborne, will be DC.

As for the use of mind freeze, good point. Yes. Other roles can do it too, however..... having the dps interrupt their cycle to hit an interrupt might be a bigger dps loss for the group. As the tank, you're pretty focused on controlling the boss as it is. It's just another form of "boss control".

One note: ties in in a way, but on a LOT of mobs, uninterruptable casts CAN be stopped with a rogue kidney shot. It generally does NOT do the same with bosses. Handy thing to keep in mind as a lot of those spells are the real hard-hitters.

Urythmic
12-30-2010, 09:28 AM
Easy macro for the Lichborne heals......

/cast Lichborne;
/cast [@player] Death Coil

Spam that button and it'll cycle what it can use, which, after you pop Lichborne, will be DC.


That's the same one I've been using, though I also made a separate one just for DC (for the subsequent DC heals, so I can see the GCD on it, etc.). Nice to know I could get by just spamming that one. Thanks!



As for the use of mind freeze, good point. Yes. Other roles can do it too, however..... having the dps interrupt their cycle to hit an interrupt might be a bigger dps loss for the group. As the tank, you're pretty focused on controlling the boss as it is. It's just another form of "boss control".


Yeah, exactly what I was thinking. Cheers!

Felycitas
12-30-2010, 03:47 PM
#showtooltip Death Coil
/cast Lichborne;
/cast [@player] Death Coil

I think that'll work. Will that show you the cooldown for DC? I think there's a better 'show' but I can't remember it off the top of my head.

uglie
12-30-2010, 04:18 PM
Right now I use:
/cast Lichborne;
/cast [@player] Death Coil
It shows the cd for lichborne which is what has the cd and dc has no cd. SO if you had 120 RP when you hit that macro you can get 3 DC's out of the macro.
One could even race change to undead and just have /cast [@player] Death Coil and use that anytime they have more than 40 rp.

Anarchthael
12-30-2010, 08:42 PM
1) Death Strike and its mastery is great for the long haul of a fight, where its real value shines as a frequent, low effect damage reduction / survival tool. This should be a considerable benefit to healers as it should reduce the burden on them.

Interesting point here. I tend to use DS with 100% mastery similar to this. I also have Power Aura's set up to show when my 'shields' are active as I try to avoid overlapping them:

ie avoiding using DS when IBF and Bone Shield are up and running. I feel that using DS, which will give me a shield, on top of those abilities somewhat negates the effectiveness of those abilities (50% damage reduction and 20% damage reduction). I must admit though, using DS when VB is up is certainly a fantastic method of getting those self heals and also mitigating the next hit - especially given that you will likely get 1-2 DS/Blood Shields up during those 12 seconds.

Does anyone else seem think that this practice is worthwhile?

Robbmarrs
12-31-2010, 12:17 AM
On Bloodworms vs Abom's might: Bloodworms.

Abom's might is covered by a few other classes and having this will not make the fight 10% faster. Not all fights are based on how hard the boss can be hit and that goes for many of them in Cata.

Albeit the heals from Bloodworms is somewhat tiny at the lower gear levels (i.e. starter heroics gear) but at the later gear levels (pre-raid with some rep epics) they actually do a littl ebit more healing. This has been explained in Satorri's guide already but a quick recap.

Bloodworms spawn with about 20% of your HP and will heal you AND your allies (not sure about whole raid but i know it heals the group you are in) for a percentage of their health when they explode. This percentage is random but its based on how many stacks of Blood Gorged the worms get. I could not find this on wowhead or thottbot so I've included the descriptions here.

According to the worm's buff: **Blood Gorged: Engorged with blood. May burst. Healing nearby allies for 10% of its maximum health** This stacks each time the worm attacks adding 10% each time.

According to the Combat log: **Blood Gorged: Instant. the Bloodworm grows engorged with the blood it leeched from its enemies giving it an increasing chance to burst, healing all nearby allies**

If you are going for a threat build, then take Abom's might, but Bloodworms is undeniably a great survival tool imho.

On Lichborne: I don't get it, this may seem like a great utility but its very situational. Granted my DK has the spec that includes Lichborne atm but it was for the 0 cost Mind Freeze, which brings me to the main reason why Lichborne is nearly useless: Not too many tanks store RP higher than 60 for DRW on purpose. Not to mention that by that time, you will have been able to do 1-2 DS that could heal you and shield you for much more than the 10k or so heal from Lichborne/DC. Maybe in very high level gear or when your Vengeance is VERY high will DC pack enough of a punch to take the time to go through 3 GCDs for its heal (assuming you hoarde enough RP for 3 DCs and Lichborne does not have a GCD... as i just found out.)

On Bloodshield: Get Blood Shield Tracker add on (curse.com should have it) This will let you know how much your shield is absorbing and time left on it. There isn't much i can say about it since my math skill are.... poor. I know this... on Chimaeron, I had some Blood Shields that absorbed over 900k. Maybe my recount is broken... Unfortunate that it only absorbs physical but it matches the other tank's masteries (Druid: Savage Defense*physical damage*, Warrior: Critical Block*physical damage*, and Paladin: Divine Bulwark*physical damage*)

Feanorr
01-02-2011, 08:14 PM
One could even race change to undead and just have /cast [@player] Death Coil and use that anytime they have more than 40 rp.

As for as I know, the race "undead" is not counted as undead since the beta (of vanilla! not cata's beta). At this time they were listed as undead and were then, if I am not mistaken, immune to sleep, fear, etc. but subject to paladin's anti undead spell's.

arctempest
01-03-2011, 01:09 AM
On Lichborne: I don't get it, this may seem like a great utility but its very situational. Granted my DK has the spec that includes Lichborne atm but it was for the 0 cost Mind Freeze, which brings me to the main reason why Lichborne is nearly useless: Not too many tanks store RP higher than 60 for DRW on purpose. Not to mention that by that time, you will have been able to do 1-2 DS that could heal you and shield you for much more than the 10k or so heal from Lichborne/DC. Maybe in very high level gear or when your Vengeance is VERY high will DC pack enough of a punch to take the time to go through 3 GCDs for its heal (assuming you hoarde enough RP for 3 DCs and Lichborne does not have a GCD... as i just found out.)

I was very skeptical of Lichborne to start out with, but after having it save my life an untold number of times I can't picture going without it. Even with little to no vengeance Death Coil gets about 15k healing, and what most folks seem to forget is that Death Coil healing with Glyph of Death's Embrace is the single most efficient way of proccing Runic Empowerment (and getting more Death Strikes) available to us.

Not to mention the added utility of being able to break a fear on your own.

Even if you never consciously pool RP for it, just being able to use it two or three times over ten seconds as an oh shit button can save your bacon. It's all upside.

Satorri
01-03-2011, 07:11 AM
Lichborne is a very popular spec right now.

The common choice categories (popularly speaking, take that for what you will):
1.) Lichborne vs Unholy sub-spec
2.) Mastery vs Avoidance

None are the clear superior, but they are generally improved by picking one and focusing on it.

If you want to rock Lichborne, drop Glyph of DS for Glyph of DC, play it up and make the most of it.
If you want to make the most of Mastery focus on heavy DS usage, and find ways to support that. Gem to favor Mastery, though I recommend still hitting socket bonuses, they are very respectable values, enough that they *do* represent an opportunity cost. Parry/Mastery, pure Mastery, and Mastery/Stam can hit every socket bonus.

The general consensus with tanks I've spoken with (and I have been expecting as much) is that if you are wearing all tank gear you really don't need to worry about obsessively stacking stamina. There are few or no burst damage risks that will test your health pool, only your healers. Reducing damage taken will go farther in supporting the tank/healer dynamic now. *That includes using your tanking debuffs. There is really no reason not to.*

Clearly#1
01-05-2011, 03:46 AM
Thank you :)

Will love to see it when finished

Nurasha
01-06-2011, 01:44 PM
Lichborne is going to be a weaker heal, come the minor glyph will change:
- Glyph of Death's Embrace no longer refunds Runic Power when self-healing via Lichborne. (Source: PTR 4.0.6 notes (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1765534540))

As anything past two DC-heals will usually and most likely be overheal I don't suspect this change to be too significant although it'll require one to save more RP to get maximum benefit.

Leucifer
01-06-2011, 04:04 PM
A couple things:

1) Mastery and Stam - Just remember when you're selecting gems or reforging that your mastery is dependent on your stam/health for it's effect to some degree. Deathstrike heals for a minimum (unsure exact as unable to pull up info at this time) of 7% of your base health. At 100k, this is a refund of 7k. At 125k it'll be worth 8750.

2) Stamina vs Mastery and the value of deathstrike - Also remember, deathstrike isn't going to do you any good if you don't survive a hit. It is NOT a shield block, which is an automatic damage reduction. Don't go in thinking, "Oh man! My mastery is so high! I'll be impossible to bring down!," and then get slammed down to zero health and wondering why you died.

Example: DK tank is down to 20k health and hits a deathstrike prior to a big hit. Based off let's say, 50k damage in the previous 5 sec, the deathstrike heals you for 12500 and gives you a shield of 7250 (assuming base ability stats). That puts you at an effective health of 39,750. If the next hit exceeds that..... you're done. Welcome to tank death.

For the people that think blood shield can absorb an insane amount of damage, recheck the basic math on the ability. It doesn't make you invincible. It is, in effect, an on-demand block tied in with an offensive strike. Think of it as analogous to the warrior's shield block ability.

All that said.... do not neglect your basic tanking stats (stam and avoidance) for the sake of mastery alone.

3) Lichborne heals - Can be worth more than 15k. Depending on the number of DC used. The anti-fear ability also is worth quite a bit as, when feared, your avoidance goes to zero and your ability to affect other cooldowns are negated. Gimmicky? Maybe. Value? There is. Plus, think of this: do you REALLY want to give up a trinket spot to a cc breaker? I don't. Lichborne is almost like an extra trinket. Additionally, it's NOT tied to your runes being active. With the change to rune mechanics, to assume that you'll have a DS sitting and waiting to be used is asking for trouble. Sure, it taps into rune power which is drawn on for rune strike. What else uses rune power? IBF? AMS? Don't look at Lichborne heals as a part of a regular rotation for damage reduction. It's not a Blade Barrier, or Bone Shield, or Scarlet Fever effect. Look at it as another cooldown to use when things get ugly, and cooldowns by their nature, are situational.

4) Bloodworms - Could be useful. Bottom end, they'll be worth about 2000-3000 health in free heals to all party members. Top end, assuming they survive long enough to get a big fat stack, could be a nice fat 20k+. That's a considerable amount of healing. A couple other issues with it are:
1- It's not on demand. You only have a 10% chance of it popping out and doing its thing. The timing could be atrocious. It could be a blessed miracle for the group. Roll the dice.
2- Bloodworm can pull aggro. Yes. I have seen this happen. It targets a random mob and lo' and behold, it's got a new buddy attacking it. Or, in a bad case, it aggros a cc'ed mob and breaks the cc.
Now, in theory, the health benefit of this over a full fight could be worthwhile. If you had 2 spawn per minute and manage to hit a 50% stack, for a 130k DK, that could be worth 130k worth of free heals to the group per minute of the fight. That DOES reduce the load on the healer. It'd be something I'd love to see proven through quantification and or example where it made a game-changing difference, even if minor.

Lastly............
Right now, DK is the most active tank. What do I mean by this? We have more to do than any of the other tanks in order to tank effectively. Our base damage reduction is lower than the paladins and warriors. In order to compete, we have to maintain Scarlet Fever, Diseases, Blade Barrier, and Bone Shield (assuming you have all of these). DK's have a LOT going on just to ensure survivability. Throw in that we still do not have shield block, which serves as another automated damage reduction tool, and we have to time our runes and deathstrikes to enable us to compensate as damage is rolling in. DK's have the most to keep aware of at the moment. We have some fantastic tools, don't get me wrong, but we have our work cut out for us.

DarklingThrush
01-06-2011, 10:49 PM
I guess the makeup of your raid team says a lot about whether you should spec Abomination's Might. On my team I am the one providing this buff and it is always active. Doing without it would cost us the 10% attack power, which is significant. If all the classes capable of providing this buff spec out of it because they assume someone else will provide it, where will that leave you?

As I mentioned earlier, I did go back and find a way to spec Bloodworms too. The heals we are getting run in the 8k range, which is akin to having extra glyphed rune taps which happen at random times. I was skeptical pre-cata because the heals were mostly wasted. Post-Cata there never seems to be a time when heals are wasted :D

DarklingThrush
01-06-2011, 10:52 PM
Trinkets

Which tanking trinkets are you using?

At Item-level 355 now, I have most of the tanking trinkets available without raiding. I find myself using the Darkmoon Earthquake (crafted) and Broken Mirrors (Tol Barad faction item) for fights with mostly magical damage, then switching to a couple of the 346 avoidance trinkets (1400-1500 dodge or parry) for fights with mostly physical damage.

What are the rest of you using?

Kazeyonoma
01-07-2011, 10:24 AM
Just a heads up, in an effort to clear up the theory forum a bit, I'll be moving this into the Critical Guides forum in the near future with a short term redirect, please reset your bookmarks when this happens.

Satorri
01-07-2011, 12:11 PM
Lichborne is going to be a weaker heal, come the minor glyph will change:
- Glyph of Death's Embrace no longer refunds Runic Power when self-healing via Lichborne. (Source: PTR 4.0.6 notes (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/1765534540))

As anything past two DC-heals will usually and most likely be overheal I don't suspect this change to be too significant although it'll require one to save more RP to get maximum benefit.
I suspect it will still be quite popular, if you can fill your health or substantially boost it. At this point survival is well out-weighing threat for any tanks who are raiding (and many others), so having another survival tool is being regarded as worth the investment.

This will be a definite nerf though, and with good reason.



1) Mastery and Stam - Just remember when you're selecting gems or reforging that your mastery is dependent on your stam/health for it's effect to some degree. Deathstrike heals for a minimum (unsure exact as unable to pull up info at this time) of 7% of your base health. At 100k, this is a refund of 7k. At 125k it'll be worth 8750.
I feel like I've had this discussion before, perhaps it wasn't here. If your heal is relying on your health, it is because you took less than 25% of your total health in damage in the last 5 seconds. If that is the case, it is not a high risk survival situation and it is a poor time to compare your survival values.

I wouldn't connect Stamina to the high-functioning value of DS/Mastery.


2) Stamina vs Mastery and the value of deathstrike - Also remember, deathstrike isn't going to do you any good if you don't survive a hit. It is NOT a shield block, which is an automatic damage reduction. Don't go in thinking, "Oh man! My mastery is so high! I'll be impossible to bring down!," and then get slammed down to zero health and wondering why you died.
What you're describing doesn't really exist any more. There are no hit-hit-dead scenarios that having more health will be a great boon for.


Example: DK tank is down to 20k health and hits a deathstrike prior to a big hit. Based off let's say, 50k damage in the previous 5 sec, the deathstrike heals you for 12500 and gives you a shield of 7250 (assuming base ability stats). That puts you at an effective health of 39,750. If the next hit exceeds that..... you're done. Welcome to tank death.
And on the flip side of the scale, adding more health to your total will not have saved you either, but the key difference is that while the Mastery will slow you reaching that 20k point by your taking less damage, Stamina will only do it by letting you take more damage to reach that point. While the difference is inconsequential to you, to your healer that is the difference between you needing healing, and not (which is the difference between them spending mana, and not).

The mana sponge aspect of Stamina is back, and while it is less distinct because of the healing/damage to health ratio differences, every little bit helps.


For the people that think blood shield can absorb an insane amount of damage, recheck the basic math on the ability. It doesn't make you invincible. It is, in effect, an on-demand block tied in with an offensive strike. Think of it as analogous to the warrior's shield block ability.
1.) No one thinks it makes you invincible, but it *does* have a very heavy scaling factor with damage taken that Shield Block does not. If you take more damage of any kind (magic or physical), your DS and Blood Shield get bigger. Shield Block will reduce a physical hit by 30%.

2.) Don't think of Blood Shield like Shield Block, it isn't the same thing, at all. Just because the heal from DS used to be 30% (matching the 30% blocks reduce) does not make it the same. Consider, when you use DS it heals you for ~35% of the damage taken in the last 5 sec, and if you have sufficient Mastery, you get a bubble equal to or more than that. If we say it is equal, you functionally heal or reduce your healing required by 70% of the damage taken in the last 5 sec, regardless of damage type. That is nothing small, and nothing like Shield Block.


All that said.... do not neglect your basic tanking stats (stam and avoidance) for the sake of mastery alone.
Sage advice, provided you remember the relative values and interactions of the stats involved. Depending on how you play, you can get superior survivability from Mastery than you can from Avoidance, and definitely from Stamina. That depends on how you play, though.

That said, you can get a superior net value by not abandoning the costs of opportunity (read: socket bonuses).



4) Bloodworms - Could be useful. Bottom end, they'll be worth about 2000-3000 health in free heals to all party members. Top end, assuming they survive long enough to get a big fat stack, could be a nice fat 20k+.
I can share something here from a healer PoV. The worms will never be a commanding source of healing, and they don't need to be. Healing is not about getting the most done (Healers who measure themselves by total healing done charts alone do not understand the true value in healing). Healing is a matter of getting the healing at the right time, and now (thankfully) about getting the best bang for your buck.

Healer mana is not unlimited, and healing scale is not through the roof (you will not be topped off from any health short of a single spell: Lay on Hands, which is at most a once per fight ability). The Bloodworms will not handle healing on their own, but it is very rewarding as a healer to see the splash of red and see everyone's health jump up a little bit. That represents that much less healing I have to do, and often times it represents another moment to get my heals off.

And for your numbers, I've seen Bloodworm heals in 5-mans that vary between 10k and 20k. Not uncommon, and very useful. So don't expect them to be pushing your healing off the charts, but they are a definite value to your *team*.


Right now, DK is the most active tank. What do I mean by this? We have more to do than any of the other tanks in order to tank effectively. Our base damage reduction is lower than the paladins and warriors. In order to compete, we have to maintain Scarlet Fever, Diseases, Blade Barrier, and Bone Shield (assuming you have all of these). DK's have a LOT going on just to ensure survivability.
This is all half-true. But herein lies the golden value that I have always loved about Blood DK tanking:
We rely on our abilities to be our most effective as tanks, but the *design* allows for the class to be played without 100% effectiveness and be balanced. You can screw up occasionally and still match the performance of other tanks. What that means is, if you play it as well as you possibly can, you can surpass other tanks, you can be rewarded for playing the class really well. This won't be something big and obvious for most players, but it can be a meaningful margin.

And on the flip-side, if you do not use your abilities well, you can be a drag, and under-perform compared to comparably geared tanks. Learn to play your class well, and be a tank that healers want around.


Throw in that we still do not have shield block
Seriously, stop leaning on that as a meaningful thing. Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!

Satorri
01-07-2011, 12:21 PM
Trinkets

Which tanking trinkets are you using?

At Item-level 355 now, I have most of the tanking trinkets available without raiding. I find myself using the Darkmoon Earthquake (crafted) and Broken Mirrors (Tol Barad faction item) for fights with mostly magical damage, then switching to a couple of the 346 avoidance trinkets (1400-1500 dodge or parry) for fights with mostly physical damage.

What are the rest of you using?
That is something I love about trinkets, they are very easy to swap between fights to tailor your values slightly.

At 359, I am in love with Mirror of Broken Images (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62471). On any fight that has any magic damage (unless it is purely holy), especially if the damage is at all bursty (Nezir!), it represents some 50% mitigation against that damage for 10 sec on a 1 min CD, that is fantastic availability.

I'm actually quite partial also to Impatience of Youth (http://www.wowhead.com/item=62469) as it offers a substantial benefit to Blood Shield, and the on-use can double purpose as a smaller avoidance prop and/or as a threat/damage boost if I feel like adding some. [/url=http://www.wowhead.com/item=62463]Unsolvable Riddle[/url] is a strong second to that for the same reasons, though I favor the AP/Parry to the Crit/Dodge usually, since we traded in our feedback mechanic with crits.

I've been steering away from Stamina trinkets, but of course I still collect them avidly along with avoidance and armor trinkets when I find them, since they may find their ideal times for use. Better to have them and try them than ignore them and never be able to.

Urythmic
01-10-2011, 08:48 AM
Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!


ROFL. Love it!

I just found my new sig. :-)

Theotherone
01-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind.

Pally's don't wear skirts anymore, that was so last expansion.

Leucifer
01-11-2011, 10:16 AM
I feel like I've had this discussion before, perhaps it wasn't here. If your heal is relying on your health, it is because you took less than 25% of your total health in damage in the last 5 seconds. If that is the case, it is not a high risk survival situation and it is a poor time to compare your survival values.
I'd agree to that. My only contention would be that, the closer you can keep your health to topped-off, the more prepared. But you are right, the difference could be negligible compared to the big hits.......



I wouldn't connect Stamina to the high-functioning value of DS/Mastery.
Not with our current stamina levels. Still, it scales in proportion to your stamina.



What you're describing doesn't really exist any more. There are no hit-hit-dead scenarios that having more health will be a great boon for.
Easy. Ozruk. Or however it's spelled. I've found that the difference of 10k health making hits survivable in that fight. That small margin can sometimes be just enough to allow a tank that one mulligan.

Of course, on Ozruk, the fight isn't about the tank being durable. It's all about positioning and movement. THe whole idea with that fight is to keep from getting the big hits at all. Of course, if you happen to get clipped..... being able to survive that and roll on with the encounter can be the difference between success and a wipe. But, that is only one example and not a reflection of the majority of fights (currently). There's some stuff a tank just CAN'T survive right now. Period.



And on the flip side of the scale, adding more health to your total will not have saved you either, but the key difference is that while the Mastery will slow you reaching that 20k point by your taking less damage, Stamina will only do it by letting you take more damage to reach that point. While the difference is inconsequential to you, to your healer that is the difference between you needing healing, and not (which is the difference between them spending mana, and not).

The mana sponge aspect of Stamina is back, and while it is less distinct because of the healing/damage to health ratio differences, every little bit helps.

Let me try to sum up my view on this simply. Deathstrike does not get its best value from being a "preventative". It shines as recovery tool, as a method to bounce back after the hit and aid the healer in keeping the tank going. Block, is a preventative measure, as it reduces the actual hit. If you do not survive the hit, deathstrike will not do you any good. For a DK, that boils down to use of cooldowns / parry / dodge. Block, on the other hand, may or may not reduce the hit (unless the cooldown for it is utilized).

And yes, stamina is a huge mana sponge. Completely. But, THAT is where the DK shines.... self-heals of significance!



1.) No one thinks it makes you invincible, but it *does* have a very heavy scaling factor with damage taken that Shield Block does not. If you take more damage of any kind (magic or physical), your DS and Blood Shield get bigger. Shield Block will reduce a physical hit by 30%. Undeniable. It's simple.



2.) Don't think of Blood Shield like Shield Block, it isn't the same thing, at all. Just because the heal from DS used to be 30% (matching the 30% blocks reduce) does not make it the same. Consider, when you use DS it heals you for ~35% of the damage taken in the last 5 sec, and if you have sufficient Mastery, you get a bubble equal to or more than that. If we say it is equal, you functionally heal or reduce your healing required by 70% of the damage taken in the last 5 sec, regardless of damage type. That is nothing small, and nothing like Shield Block.
OH! Completely agree. It doesn't work as shield block directly. BUT, you can effectively use it as the warrior on-demand shield block ability if you need to. It might not be as effective, situation warranting, BUT, if you know a big nasty hit is coming and you can't avoid it, slamming a DS, and getting that extra damage reduction could make a difference.

Again though, you have to be aware and make that choice to use it. The upside to that? Hey! It's on-demand! The downside? You might not have the resources available to use it post-strike where the ability really shines.

But, I think we can agree, that prior to an incoming big hit, the mastery may not be as effective as it would be post-hit, unless the situation prior to that hit gave you enough incoming damage to equal a 30% damage reduction.

Track with what I'm saying?



Sage advice, provided you remember the relative values and interactions of the stats involved. Depending on how you play, you can get superior survivability from Mastery than you can from Avoidance, and definitely from Stamina. That depends on how you play, though.

That said, you can get a superior net value by not abandoning the costs of opportunity (read: socket bonuses).

Agree. Heavily dependent on play-style. Of course, if you really want to get the most out of the DK, you need to adjust your play-style anyway.



I can share something here from a healer PoV. The worms will never be a commanding source of healing, and they don't need to be. Healing is not about getting the most done (Healers who measure themselves by total healing done charts alone do not understand the true value in healing). Healing is a matter of getting the healing at the right time, and now (thankfully) about getting the best bang for your buck.

Healer mana is not unlimited, and healing scale is not through the roof (you will not be topped off from any health short of a single spell: Lay on Hands, which is at most a once per fight ability). The Bloodworms will not handle healing on their own, but it is very rewarding as a healer to see the splash of red and see everyone's health jump up a little bit. That represents that much less healing I have to do, and often times it represents another moment to get my heals off.
Sure! It reduces the burden on the healer. Heck, last night, while running with one of our newer tanks in Deadmines, I ran in blood spec as a back-up, just in case. Things went MUCH more smoothly during that fight as one, my healer wasn't having to do squat to keep me up as dps, and I was able to supplement her with a glyphed rune tap. We cruised through much of it simply because we didn't have people dropping off. The dps loss hurt a little, but the improved survival of the group helped immensely.



And for your numbers, I've seen Bloodworm heals in 5-mans that vary between 10k and 20k. Not uncommon, and very useful. So don't expect them to be pushing your healing off the charts, but they are a definite value to your *team*. Agree.



This is all half-true. But herein lies the golden value that I have always loved about Blood DK tanking:
We rely on our abilities to be our most effective as tanks, but the *design* allows for the class to be played without 100% effectiveness and be balanced. You can screw up occasionally and still match the performance of other tanks. What that means is, if you play it as well as you possibly can, you can surpass other tanks, you can be rewarded for playing the class really well. This won't be something big and obvious for most players, but it can be a meaningful margin.

And on the flip-side, if you do not use your abilities well, you can be a drag, and under-perform compared to comparably geared tanks. Learn to play your class well, and be a tank that healers want around.
I think you're spot on with this statement. Wholeheartedly. I really can't put it much better.



Seriously, stop leaning on that as a meaningful thing. Leave shields to the sissy tanks who need something to hide behind. Death Knights take it full in the face!

LMAO...... No comment.

But yes, We are what we are. Doesn't make the DK less of a tank. Just different.

DarklingThrush
01-12-2011, 11:01 PM
Army of the Dead (FTW!) vs. Army of the Fail

In WotLK, about the only time I used Army was for a dps boost (or maybe for distractions during WG).
Since the Cataclysm, I am finding Army of the Dead to be an amazing tanking tool!

Reasons not to use "Army of the Fail":
1) crazy ghouls can pull extra mobs
2) ghouls reduce a tank's ability to control which way a dungeon boss faces, possibly exposing party members to extra damage
3) ghouls do not provide a huge dps boost, and dps is not the tank's job anyway.
4) summoning Army requires tank to stand still for several seconds, which could be bad if fire, etc., appears under tank.

So when is Army of the Dead "For the Win"? Post-Cataclysm heroics put tremendous strains on tank health and healer mana. When your CD's are on CD, your healer is screaming OOM, and your health bar is less than robust, Army of the Dead can give you AND your healer a much-needed respite. Raid bosses can ignore your ghouls, but dungeon bosses go for them every time. Depending on the fight, you can expect around 10-15 seconds of taking little or no damage: essentially, the ghouls are now tanking while you dps! This gives your healer time to replenish mana and you time to self-heal (I like to spam Death Strikes on these occasions).

Reasons to use Army of the Dead (FTW!):
1) gives the tank a break
2) gives the healer a break
3) boss takes damage while party recovers

Factors that make the difference:
1) Location: have to make sure your army will not find additional mobs to taunt (boss fights are usually good for this, as trash is typically cleared before pulling boss)
2) Timing: have to know fight mechanics - can I stand still long enough to cast without dying? or being interrupted?
3) Control: Does this boss cleave or direct a cone AoE that tanks normally control and turn away from the party?
If so, Army of the Dead becomes a truly-desperate gambit.
4) Descretion: Army has a 10 minute CD, so probably won't be available for every fight.

Cataclysm has greatly changed the way I think about Army of the Dead. I can count at least six boss fights already (post-Cata) where a well-timed army has turned a wipe into a win. This, combined with my DK ability to survive long after the rest of the party wipes, has led to guildies joking about me being a one-man show at times - exaggeration, of course, but fun and satisfying nonetheless :)

Lamneth
01-13-2011, 09:57 AM
Great guide Satorri. Any ETA on when you'll finish it? Rather bored at work and want to read up more on DK tanking.

PS. I miss frost tanking. :(

Lord Soth
01-13-2011, 12:13 PM
Scarlet Fever will no longer be applied by Blood Boil, instead it is applied with (or as part of) Blood Fever. Ok, this makes using both diseases and spreading them worth while additionally, Crimson Scourge will no longer proc a free Blood Boil when re-applying Blood Fever with Plague Strike while the target already has Blood Fever. Instead it has a chance to proc the free Blood Boil on any attack. Sounds good to me, rune free AoE.

Virulence spell hit moved to Runic Focus which all DKs have. I like this, I didn't take Virulence because it only affected a few abilities, ones I didn't think would be necessary to have the extra hit on, but free hit is a win. Instead, Virulence increases disease damage by 10/20/30%. This is epic for Unholy, and being in tier 1 makes it a win for Blood and Frost as well. Now we really have no reason not to spread diseases around and will pick this talent up.

I didn't see it in the latest PTR notes, but I know it has been buffed, Rune Strike weapon damage went up from 100% to 125% iirc. Heart Strike gets a boost from 120% to 175% weapon damage plus 15% up from 10% per disease. Can we get more reasons for all targets to have disease please, lol. And last but certainly not least, the ability I love to spam as often as I can...Death Strike. Improved Death Strike now grants 30/60/90% bonus damage. Wow (no pun intended).

I haven't had the time to push into raiding since rejoining the WoW community, but I didn't feel like there was any problems with blood tanking except the awkwardness of Crimson Scourge and the lesser reasons to apply both diseases and spread them and these seemed rather minor to me. I am happy for more damage, don't get me wrong, but was such a buff to our two most spammed attacks necessary and how will all of these changes affect the way you play your DK?

I know for me I will definitely be using both diseases from now on instead of just applying frost fever and I likely won't use blood boil unless Crimson Scourge procs it for free except maybe on the initial pull where I want to build up some better area threat. Thoughts?

Robbmarrs
01-14-2011, 02:16 AM
Also to add on to the post above, Blood Shield absorb will now rollover when using Death Strike. As long as the 9 sec duration does not run or your Blood Shield is not used up, it will stack as long as you can keep it up.

Leucifer
01-14-2011, 09:44 AM
The PTR proposed change to the blood shield will be great! I'm expecting QQ from the other tank classes though.....

Satorri
01-14-2011, 09:50 AM
Easy. Ozruk. Or however it's spelled. I've found that the difference of 10k health making hits survivable in that fight. That small margin can sometimes be just enough to allow a tank that one mulligan.

Of course, on Ozruk, the fight isn't about the tank being durable. It's all about positioning and movement. THe whole idea with that fight is to keep from getting the big hits at all. Of course, if you happen to get clipped..... being able to survive that and roll on with the encounter can be the difference between success and a wipe. But, that is only one example and not a reflection of the majority of fights (currently). There's some stuff a tank just CAN'T survive right now. Period.
Second point is right. You should *not* be eating hits at all, you should not be relying on health. You should be out before he Ground Slams or Shatters.



Let me try to sum up my view on this simply. Deathstrike does not get its best value from being a "preventative". It shines as recovery tool, as a method to bounce back after the hit and aid the healer in keeping the tank going. Block, is a preventative measure, as it reduces the actual hit. If you do not survive the hit, deathstrike will not do you any good. For a DK, that boils down to use of cooldowns / parry / dodge. Block, on the other hand, may or may not reduce the hit (unless the cooldown for it is utilized).
Half true. Death Strike and Blood Shield scale off of the damage you've already taken, but they allow you to create a shield that *will* act as a preventative. DS will only work well in retrospect, but so long as you took damage and you're about to take more Blood Shield is protection. The perk many DKs appreciate is that you can choose to apply Blood Shield which gives it a sense of more control (and players seem to go gaga over control).

Satorri
01-14-2011, 09:54 AM
Any ETA on when you'll finish it? Rather bored at work and want to read up more on DK tanking.
The real world has kept me terribly busy, and that impedes my ability to write quite a bit. Every page that I turn out is the product usually of hours of writing, editing, and revisions. I will get to it, and when I do it will be fully up-to-date, relevant, and hopefully have a handful of my personal tricks. =)


PS. I miss frost tanking. :(
Me too, but only a little. ;)

Felycitas
01-14-2011, 01:23 PM
Army of the Dead (FTW!) vs. Army of the FailDuring the tail end of the aoe storm on the final boss of Grim Batol is a good time to use Army. Keeps the boss occupied while you're dealing with the adds and lets the healer regen a bit of mana instead of using it to heal you because the boss keeps wailing on you.

Leucifer
01-14-2011, 01:27 PM
Half true. Death Strike and Blood Shield scale off of the damage you've already taken, but they allow you to create a shield that *will* act as a preventative. DS will only work well in retrospect, but so long as you took damage and you're about to take more Blood Shield is protection. The perk many DKs appreciate is that you can choose to apply Blood Shield which gives it a sense of more control (and players seem to go gaga over control).

It is true. The key part is "does not get its best value". Simple question Sat, which one will give you a larger blood shield? Hitting DS after a 5 sec period where a DK received 50k damage? Or hitting DS after a 5 sec period where a DK received 100k damage?

I'm not saying that it can't be used as a preventative. It certainly can. I'm arguing that it gets better value being used after a large hit as a recovery device. Instead of your healer seeing your health bottom out and knowing that they have to bust tail to get your health back up, they know that you can recover a significant portion of that back, and that you'll be shielded so that follow-up shots are less-likely to wipe you out.

Think of this too...
If you use DS and you're at near max or max health, how much of the benefit of DS have you negated?

However, it can be used to reduce incoming damage. Agree. If I know a bit hit is coming and my cooldowns are wiped out, I might want to use it do reduce some of that damage. If I knew I had two DS on tap, I'd be more likely to save them for after the hit... in case I survive... to be able to rapidly bring my health back up and reduce my "mana-spongeness". But that's just my play style.

DarklingThrush
01-18-2011, 02:08 PM
Continuing to favor Dodge over Mastery

...for the moment. It occurs to me that absorbing damage from a blow does not avoid the debuff applied by an attack (poisons, slows, stuns, etc.). Dodging does. This in addition to the point I mentioned before - that dodge is more useful in trash pulls when I find I have less time to DS because I am using more HS and BB. I like Blood Shield; when it first came out I was reforging everything into it. But more and more I am placing it second on my list of desirable stats: behind dodge for tanking and behind crit for dps.

swollenpickles
01-18-2011, 04:55 PM
Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle is what turns a non-tank weapon into a tank weapon.

Also, I STRONGLY recommend everyone go get this...

http://www.wowhead.com/item=63787 -- the Oversized Oblique Ogre Obliterator

...as soon as possible. It's from the 'Ring of Blood' stuff in Twilight Highlands. I tanked the entire thing at 84 and didn't really have too many issues.

No RNG needed. Dunno when it's going to get replaced, but it'll definitely get you started if you didn't have something really sweet in Wrath (I had Shadow's Edge and this one is better; I also saw a better weapon drop from the 3rd boss in Stonecore (http://www.wowhead.com/item=55811 -- the Sword of the Bottomless Pit) but the OOOO is superior (the Sword has mastery and the OOOO crit, though)).

Here's a comparison of all three weapons: http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=55811;63787;49888

As a DK tank looking to move into Heroics, I'd recommend checking out the Wild Hammer that drops off the last boss in Grim Batol:
http://www.wowhead.com/item=56131
A big chunk of mastery and haste can be reforged into dodge or whatever you are lacking. Since I'm a Dwarf, maces give me an added expertise bonus too which is nice.

Michultradk
01-20-2011, 07:10 AM
Continuing to favor Dodge over Mastery

...for the moment. It occurs to me that absorbing damage from a blow does not avoid the debuff applied by an attack (poisons, slows, stuns, etc.). Dodging does. This in addition to the point I mentioned before - that dodge is more useful in trash pulls when I find I have less time to DS because I am using more HS and BB. I like Blood Shield; when it first came out I was reforging everything into it. But more and more I am placing it second on my list of desirable stats: behind dodge for tanking and behind crit for dps.

I am also favoring avoidance at the moment. Presently I am at ~15.21 dodge and ~15.43 parry unbuffed using the Shattering forging. I also use dodge buff food and several dodge gems to catch up to my 4% parry added from the rune. My mastery is around 14 or so and I can see the difference quiet well, though soon I am going to swap to mastery and get a first hand look at the difference. With the new changes being tested on the PTR some are saying it could make advoidance pull ahead by some margin. I also read the other day that avoidance starts diminishing after 14%, not sure if this is true, maybe Satorri or someone else can confirm this and if so I will drop some off for mastery.

Edit; Each 1% more of avoidance is worth more than the 1% before, even after diminishing returns. Extreme example: At 98%, +1% cuts the damage taken in half (50%). This old thread elaborates: Diminishing Returns on Avoidance? Not really. (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?50733-Diminishing-Returns-on-Avoidance-Not-really.&p=232117)
DR doesn't decrease the value of avoidance, it prevents it from becoming too powerful. So there isn't a point where you stop adding avoidance because DR is killing it.

Lamneth
01-21-2011, 01:14 PM
The question I have on my mind though is why the need to have both dodge and parry at an equal level? I've yet to see a satisfactory explanation. Right now, I'm sitting at about 4-5% difference between the both of them. And please, no answers with heavy math that'll make me go cross-eyed. :) >.<

Another question I have concerns my initial rotation. As a player, I love the thought of spreading diseases to all targets with my death knight. I'm well aware it's just flavour on my part, but I'm also concerned that it may be the reason my initial pull rotation is less than practical. My pull rotation on pretty much everything is IT-PS-Pest-BB to get all three diseases out. I will then follow that up with either a Rune Strike or Death Strike, depending on the amount of initial damage I've taken. On pulls of more than 3 mobs, I'll drop a DND first, but I often hold on to DND for adds. But on 3 or less mobs, I find myself with 2 blood runes on CD and no Heart Strike. And seeing as I enjoy the though of spreading diseases first to deal more damage to mobs to build greater threat, I'm starving myself of blood runes. And furthermore, sometimes a dpser will pull a mob off of me. I know that a dps toon needs to be more aware, but sometimes you get that player that just neither listens nor works well with others.

Is there a way of changing my initial rotation to be more effective? I'm not very fond of running diseaseless; makes me feel like I'm missing something. But I may have to. I'm wondering if there are more options out there.

Kazeyonoma
01-21-2011, 02:07 PM
because, of Diminishing returns.

lets jsut throw out some fast numbers.
these numbers are made up but serve the same purpose

if you have say, 2400 rating to move around between dodge and parry

if you put say 1200 into dodge and 1200 into parry, you'll end up with 13% dodge, 13% parry = 26% total
if you put say 800 dodge and 1600 into parry, you end up with 10% dodge, and 15% parry = 25% total
if you put 1600 dodge, and 800 parry you end up with 15% dodge, and 10% parry = 25% total

therefore, while trying to keep your dodge/parry as close to each other as possible, you suffer the least amount of DR on either avoidance amounts and yield you higher total avoidance numbers.

Leucifer
01-21-2011, 03:27 PM
Some follow-ons to a few things posted:

In regards to Dodge vs Parry vs Mastery:

Kaz is spot on. At some point you will hit diminishing returns.
Some good points from DarklingThrush, Michultradk, and Lamneth.

Here's what I see.........

Dodge:
Pros-
- 100% damage AND debuff reduction when it works
- Effective against physical, ranged, and some spells
- Automatic. Does not require user input to effect
- Potentially unlimited in its activation. Potential to dodge every attack from every mob.
- Is resource free. No cooldown. Not resource driven.
Cons-
- 0% damage/debuff reduction when it doesn't work
- RNG controlled. It may or may not work and user cannot directly create the effect
- Will not affect debuffs/poisons/DoT's

Parry:
Pros-
- 100% damage reduction when it works
- Effective against physical attacks and their debuffs
- Automatic. Does not require user input to effect
- Potentially unlimited in its activation. Potential to parry every attack from every mob.
- Is resource free. No cooldown. Not resource driven.
- Increases attack speed of toon, and thus threat
Cons-
- 0% damage/debuff reduction when it doesn't work
- RNG controlled. It may or may not work and user cannot directly create the effect
- Does not work against ranged and most spell effects.
- Will not affect debuffs/poisons/DoT's

Mastery:
Pros-
- Significant damage reduction potential
- Useful against all attacks except DoT's and pre-existing damage
- User controlled. Can be drawn upon when needed
- Works to a certain minimum effectiveness when used
- Can reduce damage from any attacking mob
Cons-
- Is NOT a 100% damage reduction
- Is resource limited. Must have available runes.
- Will only reduce a certain amount of damage and then lose the effect

All of this taken into account, we can look at prioritization in a couple ways. Please bear with as this is just my opinion and how I would approach this.

Tank for Boss with Low/No Magic Attacks - Mastery > Parry > Dodge

Tank for Boss with High Magic Attacks - Mastery > Dodge > Parry

Tank for Mobs/Adds with Low/No Magic Attacks - Parry > Dodge > Mastery

Tank for Mobs/Adds with High Magic Attacks - Dodge > Mastery > Parry

If you REALLY wanted to tailor down to the maximum effect for a given scenario, this could very well be your approach. Theoretically, if you're doing NOTHING beyond tanking, you could carry sets and talent builds tailored to each of these scenarios!

Then take into account certain item bonuses. A trinket that gives a high parry bonus, paired with a trinket that has a dodge proc based off of a parry bonus could be a superior pairing for a particular fight. That same pairing would be less useful in a fight where parry is not as effective.

TL;DR.......

So, all of that said, your chosen stat priority is really a reflection of what you want your tank to accomplish. You need to ask yourself, what is the role that I need to fulfill as a tank? Am I the MT for raid bosses? Or am I the OT gathering up tons of trash adds? Or, am I trying to build the Do-It-All tank that can handle everything ok, but doesn't shine in any aspect?

Choose the purpose for your tank, and intelligently build your talents, gear, and stats to reflect that chosen purpose.

Leucifer
01-21-2011, 03:42 PM
And as for weapons for DK tanks, Tol Barad offers a really nice 2H sword for 85 commendations. Yes. It'll take a little grinding, but it's on par with the heroic weapon drops, whereas the Oversized Oblique Ogre Obliterator is not.

Lamneth
01-24-2011, 12:25 PM
Thank you both for the explanation. That really helps. The hamster is finally turning the wheel in my old brain. :)

As a side note, I tank with the crafted rare 2h sword (forget the name), seeing as it has mastery on it, and reforged crit to hit. I use the OOOO for my dps set. May or may not be the best of choices atm, but for now it works for me. I've also played around with my rotation a little and it's working for me. If three mobs or less, I'll Heart Strike first to generate initial threat, and start my rotation, or if more than 3 mos, I pop a blood boil, not only for the threat, but also to apply scarlet fever to reduce incoming damage. I am noticing a difference in a positive way. It'll remain to be seen if the results will stay the same now after the next patch.

As of this post though, finally got many reps to exalted or revered and acquiring respective equipment from them, and finally got my dodge at 11.73% and parry at 11.78% by reforging some equipment. Now it's just a matter of upgrading the equipment as I start raiding soon.

Edit: Got the Wild Hammer last night from Grim Batol. An extra 60 stamina will help. :)

Felycitas
01-25-2011, 08:18 PM
You don't want to keep your dodge/parry at an exact equal level.

However, the math doesn't seem entirely accurate in my testing to get it proper.

The reason is that you get more base parry than base dodge, neither of which is subject to DR, and as a result you want to keep your parry higher in the final percentage amount listed.

Anyone able to explain the math on it a bit better?

Gendrake
01-25-2011, 11:47 PM
What you want to keep equal is your dodge rating and your parry rating. The %s will be off from each other because of the variance in base values and possibly because of Swordshattering if you have it.

Moral of the story, if your parry rating is higher than your dodge rating reforge parry to dodge, and vice versa. Or better yet, reforge hit/expertise into parry or dodge, whichever has the lower rating.

Lamneth
01-28-2011, 09:07 AM
Ah... alright I'll take a look at my ratings for each tonight then and adjust accordingly. Thanks. :)

TitaniumGene
01-30-2011, 11:18 AM
I found that the Foe Reaper from Heroic Deadmines is a nice tanking weapon because it offers both hit and expertise.

Nurasha
01-31-2011, 09:14 AM
You don't want to keep your dodge/parry at an exact equal level.

However, the math doesn't seem entirely accurate in my testing to get it proper.

The reason is that you get more base parry than base dodge, neither of which is subject to DR, and as a result you want to keep your parry higher in the final percentage amount listed.

Anyone able to explain the math on it a bit better?

As dodge and parry ratings have the same diminishing returns you want the ratings to be close to equal to optimize your avoidance. However, you have to consider the parry rating gain from strength (1str=0.25 parry rating) and thus have to reforge/gear/eat accordingly with strength increasing buffs such as BoK and HoW.

I find that Frohike (http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900710486#9) on the bnet forum has formulated it in an easy understandable and logic way:

What is reduced by DR is the amount, not the effect.
When you add 1% at 0% avoidance you gain 1% damage reduction. But when you add 1% at 50% you gain 2% damage reduction of the damage you are getting now (not the total damage you would get at 0%, that is irrelevant). To prevent the exponential effectiveness of this effect, DR reduces the amount of avoidance so you get a similar improvement of effectiveness disregarding the amount you already have.

In plain english: avoidance is always a good investment. Even when you already have a lot of it. Diminishing returns are just a way to prevent avoidance from becoming too powerful.

Satorri
01-31-2011, 10:14 AM
Even if you are just looking at the %'s on the sheet, the base Parry is about 0.33% higher than the base dodge, which isn't *huge*.

The swings you can attain from gear, and the pieces where you will actually *want* to do this balancing act will be few, usually. This is just something to keep in mind if you have the odd piece that isn't reforged for something else (or if you're trying to max avoidance in general), and usually you'll find your %'s may wind up pretty far off.

I know a lot of the entry-level heroic gear has high Parry and fewer have Dodge, so you may find yourself wanting to dial it back a bit. Don't sweat it if the two are looking close already.

Believe me when I say that gaining 0.05% avoidance is not going to even make a noticeable difference in parses, let alone play experience.

Swam
01-31-2011, 02:34 PM
Ok with the upcoming change to scarlet fever (being applied from plague strike instead of blood boil) I am wondering what other people think about [crimson scourge]
currently i use it and like it but without the sf debuff im not sure i will use it as much.

Satorri
02-01-2011, 12:14 PM
I love it. Free BB's? Even without the reliance on BB for the debuff, if you have open GCDs this represents a serious gain in the form of free damage and RP, and what is more, this actually increases the (mostly unnoticed) potential for dual wielding as Blood.

Think about it, in the new form your auto-attacks have a chance to proc a free BB. Every BB you use is worth a splash of damage and 10 RP (I actually need to confirm that it still gives RP, so don't take my word for that). Cost-free threat, hard to doubt, but not a guaranteed value.

For those who started salivating when I mentioned dual wielding, take a second to consider:
Blood-Caked Blade = scales nicely with dual wielding
Scent of Blood = 3/3 can be easily, fully supported by dual-wielding
Blood Parasites = proc chance is based only on melee hits, much higher count of auto-swings increases spawn rate noticeably
(new) Crimson Scourge = more auto-attacks means more free BB procs, and with the reduced instant weapon damage you will enjoy using BB all the more.
Nerves of Cold Steel = this talent in first tier frost is no longer wasted, giving you a more appealing footing to build to Endless Winter and/or Lichborne.

Also note: you lose no survival value. DS heals don't care about weapon choice, none of your debuffs do either. There is no parry haste, no negative feedback from using two weapons or attacking faster.

What does it cost? You *will* lose HS, RS, and DS threat values, and it will not be gained back in using BcB, from the increase in auto-attack damage, nor in the increase in RS from additional RP generation through SoB, nor the extra BBs from Crimson Scourge. However, all of that combined with an increase in favoring your diseases, DnD, and BB will miitgate your losses so that it is reasonable to predict less than a 20% loss in threat at the most extreme. Without any supporting math, I'd wager it will be closer to 10-15%, but that is pure conjecture.

So, if you *can* manage without 100% threat potential, there is room for those who find the idea appealing to use dual wield tanking once again.

The one thing it will take time before I can test and establish is whether or not Windwalker is PPM-limited. If it is not, that *could* trump our Runeforges. That will require rigorous testing and some lovely maths to support it, however.

Gendrake
02-01-2011, 01:07 PM
I'll be surprised if Crimson Scourge proced BBs give RP. Rhyme proced HBs don't give RP currently.

Robbmarrs
02-03-2011, 12:45 AM
Ok... here are a few things i have seen on the PTR so far.

Scarlet Fever 1/2 and Scarlet Fever 2/2 literally say the same thing for both points.
***
Causes your Blood Plague to afflict enemies with Scarlet Fever, reducing their physical damage dealt by 10% for XX sec.***
Scarlet Fever has the same duration as Blood Plague, and as such is affected by Epidemic. This is the reason for "... for XX sec." On my PTR toon I have 2 points in Epidemic so mine lasts 29 sec as do Blood Plague and Frost Fever. I expect that to be fixed or there will be no use in the 2nd point at all, which could be useful elsewhere.

As Satorri mentioned, Dual Wielding seems feasible. Even with one point in Crimson Scourge, the proc rate is not too shabby. Feels random and can get dry spells though. Yes, I am aware its on a percentage chance and does not have ICD or PPM or at least it doesnt appear.

Crimson Scourge proc'd BBs DO give RP... on the PTR. Wont be surprised if it's changed when it goes live.

Wish I could give you guys some numbers to crunch but what I can see is all i can tell you.

Here are the builds im using right now.

Dual Wield: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGd0sMruskMhobZ0b:s0R0RmVM0

2h: http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGd0sMruskG0obZ0b:s0R0Rm0MV

Remember: Scarlet Fever and Crimson Scourge are not on live and this is the only talent calc i found.

Robbmarrs
02-03-2011, 02:45 AM
Take that back... DW tanking, while feasible, is NOT advisable. The damage from Heart Strike, Death Strike and Rune Strike is nearly halved and Crimson Scourge procs don't even remotely make up for it. I know some of you will do it anyway, you've been warned.

Illidra
02-03-2011, 06:33 AM
OK stupdi question btu the thought JSUT dawned on me.

blood shield is 50% then the 6.25% increas from mastery.

now by having 20.26 mastery i would gain a 126.625% shield, but my question is:

does this make my blood shield shield me for 176.625%.
or 50 x 2.26625 - giving me a 113.3125 % shield from my heal?

i was sure it was the first one, but now due to the ambiguous wording it could be either.

smart way of phrasing it: are the 2 percentages additive or multiplicative

Uranos7
02-03-2011, 06:34 AM
Yes DW is doable but you need TONS of Hit.
It is just too much to sacrifice when you could use those slots for many other things, even frost dps you have to use 6 talent points and alot of hit so it is hardly even worth it for them.

PS: I have seen that some of the top unholy dk dps still use it but I am guessing just for the stat boost and using spell heavy attacks?

Illidra
02-03-2011, 06:49 AM
for unholy dw = more sudden doom procs = more dc's = mroe runic corruption + dark transformations.

Robbmarrs
02-03-2011, 08:20 AM
You start out with a 50% Blood Shield, 8.00 Mastery and 0 Mastery Rating. These are your base values. Roughly 179 Mastery Rating gets you 1 point in Mastery.Each point of Mastery gained from Mastery Rating increases your Blood Shield by 6.25% per point.
That being said, with 179 Mastery Rating you would have 9.00 Mastery which would make your Blood Shield 56.25%. 358 Mastery Rating would give you 10.00 Mastery which would make your Blood Shield 62.5%. And so on.

((Mastery Rating divided by 179) * 6.25) + 50 = Blood Shield

(Mastery Rating divided 179) + 8 = Mastery

um.. yea...

Now I will pull a rabbit out of a hat.... or try to make some numbers appear... wish me luck.

To get 176.625% Blood Shield, you would need 3626.54 Mastery Rating which comes out to 28.26 Mastery
((3626.54 / 179) * 6.25) + 50 = 176.625%
(3626.54 / 179) + 8 = 28.26

To get 113.3125 Blood Shield, you would need 1813.27 Mastery Rating.
((1813.27 / 179) * 6.25) + 50 = 113.3125%
(1813.27 / 179) + 8= 18.13

Last one: ((2194.54 / 179) * 6.25) + 50 = 126.625%
(2194.54 /179) + 8 = 20.26

The +50 and the +8 come from your base stats and thus remain constant.

So, to answer your question.... no.


does this make my blood shield shield me for 176.625%.
or 50 x 2.26625 - giving me a 113.3125 % shield from my heal?

The 50% is already included in the 126.625% Blood Shield and I have no clue where you came up with the 2nd formula.

If my math is wrong, please let me know. I kinda just looked at my own DK's character sheet and figured it out from there. Hope this terribly long explanation helps you :)

Illidra
02-03-2011, 08:53 AM
basically - i forgot that i start with base 8 mastery - mystery solved.

i got the second formula from multiplicative math

to increase somethign by 126% you * it by 2.26 as 1.26 would be a 26% increase.

so my blood shields are 126%, nice, chuck in some mastery food and pewpew.

2000 mastery rating ( ish) / 179
12 bonus mastery x 6.25 62.5 + 12.5 = 77 yeah roughly works out to the 126% on my char sheet.

seeing it liek that makes the math shwo the % is additive not multiplicative of the base value.

p.s i've been staring at java script all day, my typing has gone to crap and the clours you used made my brain angry xD

Satorri
02-04-2011, 11:48 AM
OK stupdi question btu the thought JSUT dawned on me.

blood shield is 50% then the 6.25% increas from mastery.

now by having 20.26 mastery i would gain a 126.625% shield, but my question is:

does this make my blood shield shield me for 176.625%.
or 50 x 2.26625 - giving me a 113.3125 % shield from my heal?

i was sure it was the first one, but now due to the ambiguous wording it could be either.

smart way of phrasing it: are the 2 percentages additive or multiplicative

As opposed to Expertise which uses the same Rating => Skill => % value system, Mastery starts at base 8.00. If you have zero Mastery rating you have 8 Mastery skill and your base (50%) amount.

The %'s are additive after that. =)


Yes DW is doable but you need TONS of Hit.
It is just too much to sacrifice when you could use those slots for many other things, even frost dps you have to use 6 talent points and alot of hit so it is hardly even worth it for them.
Common confused idea.

You do not *need* any extra hit.
1.) You will do more auto-attack damage with an equivalent amount of hit rating and same ilvl weapons going from a 2-hander to dual wielding.
2.) Hit rating requirements do not change for special attacks.
3.) You *can* benefit farther on auto-attacks from hit rating beyond what a 2-hander can, but that is not necessary.
4.) Some of these mechanics take advantage of more hits, you will land more hits just from having faster weapons even with no hit rating at all. Increasing that hit count, theoretically, will improve the value of these proc-on-hit mechanics but no one I know of has done this math yet for specific ranges or values.

All of this is hypothetical and narrowly tested. I do have a friend who is raiding current progression and swapping back and forth between 2-hander and dual wield. Anecdotally from his experiences, he sometimes does *more* dps overall while dual wielding, and he's seen Blood Parasites scale upwards of 1500-2000 hps when dual wielding.

Kongolo
02-05-2011, 02:40 AM
I didnt read all the 16ish page nore the whole guide.. too long D:

i have a DK charated (alt char) and i'd love to start tanking efficanetly on HCs, (no raid for alts :/ ).

regardless MUCH apprichated, looking forward for a shorter straight-forward guide.

..sry for bad spellling.

cinaeth
02-08-2011, 08:50 AM
First poster, long reader / tank.

As with the changes to 4.0.6, I'd suggest the following build: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/drenden/slackandhash/talent/primary

Take out Glyph of Death's Embrace, and go into glyph of raise ally, maybe. I really don't see a better glyph, now that DE was nerfed.

I'm thinking Glyph of Dark Succor needs to be put into the major glyphs now. Perhaps taking out Bone Shield for it.

I've been playing this build pre 4.0.6, since I saw the changes to Virulence. I'd say the two points in On a Pale Horse are totally transferable to Crimson Scourge, if you want more RP generation and don't care for the reduction to movement impairing effects. Or maybe into Endless winter to give you more interrupt viability. Abom's Might would be another good choice. Otherwise, yea, suggest where you think those two points should go. I don't see a point in using Virulence, unless you really want more threat gen. If you really need it though, you might not be spamming rune strike enough..

Thoughts? Comments? etc? Go for it. Just thought I should post something, since a lot of this guide needs updating now.

aneki
02-09-2011, 06:33 AM
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/blackhand/aneki/talent/secondary

I felt it went really well. Did heroic stonecore and I was pushing 8k dps in the boss fights with no noticeable difference in survivability. I am spec'd into abomination's might because I'll need to give that buff to my particular raid group.

I figure with the nerf to deathcoil/lichborne self healing and my own playstyle being to keep my runic power down for the procs that I would very rarely use the ability (generally only if the healer(s) we dead or dying).

The blood boil procs are awfully nice, extra disease damage and the option to put a desecration out for kiting is attractive to me. The recent damage buffs make me feel like I can contribute a bit there as well, especially on fights like Maloriak where I'm likely to be on add duty and can help burn them down.

With losing lichborn I also tossed out my death coil glyph in favor of the longer death and decay for lack of better options.

cuantro
02-09-2011, 09:49 AM
I have a maloriak question for you guys. Is anyone else having one hell of a time keeping aggro on the abberations as they are coming out? It had to have been a bug, but they were constantly making my taunt and DG miss. Also what have people found to be the best way to tank the 2 guys who come out at the end? We got our first kill with a healer tanking one because I could not get threat over the fixate. That however, may have been due to the fact I still had 3 abberations alive and so my dmg to the 2 large adds was very little from the abberation debuff.

Crom
02-09-2011, 10:24 AM
I'm thinking Glyph of Dark Succor needs to be put into the major glyphs now. Perhaps taking out Bone Shield for it.
The Glyph increases the minimum heal of DS in Unholy or Frost presence only. So it's pretty useless for tanks.

Lamneth
02-09-2011, 02:32 PM
Well I logged on yesterday after patch 4.0.6 and got to raid the first boss and the trash in Bastion of Twilight. I must say the improvements to blood DK were noticeable right away. Many of the healers who healed my DK butt found that it was more fluid instead of spikey and stressful.

First up, stacking Blood Shields is a boon from what I observed. I found that not having to mentally keep track of when to use DS was helpful and therefore allowed me to focus on other things like positioning and other factors of an encounter. I would use DS for the blood shield when I took some damage, and when I took fast big hits from Halfius, I would pop two back to back so that the healers could bring me back up. Like I said, they noticed a stark improvement in being able to heal me.

Second thing I noticed is that the free Blood Boil procs rather often, and whenever I can afford a GCD rotation, I pop it for extra damage. Currently, with all 3 diseases on the target, BB was doing 4k+ dmg to all targets. We also get the effect of two arcs of blood to either side of our character like say Killing Machine to aid in knowing it's a free BB, as well as the BB icon glowing white around the border. And yes, it did generate RP. I sometimes had no targets targetted and standing still, and pressed the BB button, and my RP guage went up. It is entirely player choice though to put 1 point in Crimson Scourge and 2 points in Blood Worms, or vice versa, or both, seeing as that's about the only two talents you can have an option on when speccing. I went 2 in CS and 1 in BW and found it pretty good. Testing required though.

Third thing I found simplified my tanking life is the change to Scarlet Fever being applied through Plague Strike. Instead of having to pop a blood rune to use BB as before to apply SF (AND risk breaking nearby CC), now that frees up that blood rune after applying and spreading diseases around to either use BB or Heart Strike, depending on the number of targets. It's far more beneficial to be able to use HS on a single or double pull now as the threat generation is greater.

Threat issues: None. Nada. Zilch. Zero. Need I go on.

Survivability: I found it was slightly improved compared to previous raid runs. As I noted above, healers found it was easier to heal me and keep me alive. That said, this requires more testing. I did a couple of heroics and I found the process to be smoother, with less math and timing going through my head than before.

My personal build, and this works for me, not for everyone, is that aside from the core talents that you need mentioned in this guide, I spent 3 points in Unholy for extended diseases, and 7 in Frost to get free Mind Freeze. Too often I found myself having spammed unnecessarily Rune Strike to be RP starved and not enough for an interrupt. No more I said. For me, this version of a build works wonders, and I've found it less stressful to tank. Again, my own personal choice. Kudos to you guys for your builds.

Also, I fail to see why putting 2 points in Scarlet Fever is needed. As stated above, just put 1 point until Blizz notices that and makes a change. Get something else like BCB or Improved Blood Tap for that point.

All in all, this was a good patch for Blood DKs. I personally find we're better for it.

CalmEyE
02-10-2011, 04:39 AM
I have a maloriak question for you guys. Is anyone else having one hell of a time keeping aggro on the abberations as they are coming out? It had to have been a bug, but they were constantly making my taunt and DG miss. Also what have people found to be the best way to tank the 2 guys who come out at the end? We got our first kill with a healer tanking one because I could not get threat over the fixate. That however, may have been due to the fact I still had 3 abberations alive and so my dmg to the 2 large adds was very little from the abberation debuff.

The reason they are hard to pick up is because of their reduced damage taken (and damage = threat). With regards to the adds to keep aggro there are two ways I alter between. If they are very few in number (1-3) I usually take the beating and just straight tank them. Keep diseases rolling and keep healing and blood shielding yourself. Once you start getting more of them and you want to start kiting, I suggest dropping DnD while on the run under yourself/them for maximum threat; also keep diseases on them as much as possible. However, be very careful in doing this if there are many adds. One (awesome) method is to have a mage Ring of Frost them all, you just move up and outbreak pestilence them and run off for more kiting.

If you are doing this on 25man, then I highly suggest taking two tanks for the abberations. This makes the two at the end very easy to handle. Last night we got into phase with nine normal abberations along with the two primes. Two add tanks could handle it through a bit of CD rolling.



Also, I fail to see why putting 2 points in Scarlet Fever is needed. As stated above, just put 1 point until Blizz notices that and makes a change. Get something else like BCB or Improved Blood Tap for that point.

After a quick test Scarlet Fever 2/2 is needed to get the full 10% reduction of the diseases.
It seems like a tooltip bug, therefore I highly suggest that you put both points in there.

Lastly, this is the build that I found works well for me.
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#jcGr0sMrusdbZch:Ro0aRkM0m

Runic Power Mastery along with the DS glyph allows some more "space" in which to have it at a high damage bonus. Though I consider those points to be the most optional of all of this. I have found that those Blood Worms are wonderful. On fights like Nef they are invaluable in aiding (with a bit of luck) on the pillars healing.

Smartass
02-13-2011, 01:08 PM
I have a maloriak question for you guys. Is anyone else having one hell of a time keeping aggro on the abberations as they are coming out? It had to have been a bug, but they were constantly making my taunt and DG miss. Also what have people found to be the best way to tank the 2 guys who come out at the end? We got our first kill with a healer tanking one because I could not get threat over the fixate. That however, may have been due to the fact I still had 3 abberations alive and so my dmg to the 2 large adds was very little from the abberation debuff.

Well for the first part you shoudl'nt get extra adds, thats something your raid has to work to just getting as many adds down as possible so it improves the conditions for last phase, as to keeping threat.. what I do is standing where 1 of them spawns and hit it with a DS while running to the next one and putting up a dnd on its feet and death coil it with any RP I had banked up to that point.. I also have a couple of tanking cds up by this time because the way we do it its we let him break up to 12 whelps the first time and I pop cds then and by the time the burn phase comes IBF and trinket are ready to use again.. and yeah I straight up tank em till my raid finishes maloriak, no weird kiting business

Nullset
02-18-2011, 06:56 AM
Hi all,

Thank you for this guide, it is extensive and gives me most of the info I think I need to start tanking, a few questions, though:

-I haven't tanked before. My main is a Mage that is pretty well geared (lots of heroics). Should I just suck it up and throw my DK into the normal queue and hope for the best? I know the theory, and what's going to save my ass, but I haven't done it in practice and I worry that I will be responsible for massive wipeage.

-How is multiple target threat calculated? For instance if we're in Tol Vir there are tons of 4 group mobs. If I attack one mob (diseases, say) the others in the group will follow. If no DPS touch these extra adds will they eventually change their target based on what the DPS is doing to the mob I'm tanking?

-Has the stigma of threat pulling changed since the Classic/BC days? It seems like now (and maybe this is just me reading tank threads too much) if a DPS pulls threat it's the tanks fault for not holding, but I remember back in the day, everyone had threatmeter and you made damn sure that you didn't pull ahead of the tank. Is this still the case in raids, or have tanks been given more threat generating abilities?

Lamneth
02-18-2011, 12:30 PM
@Nullset

Tanking is relatively the same as before, mechanics wise at any rate. Tanking with a DK is different from warriors and paladins. They mitigate dmg through their shield, whereby we self heal the damage that we take.

Since patch 4.0.6, you can still run disease-less, but it really isn't advisable anymore. Generating threat is really not difficult at all now, being able to rack up 100k threat in a few seconds. Of the tools you'll need the most, Death Strike and Rune Strike are by far your main single target threat tools. Heart Strike and Blood Boil are your main AOE tools. And it depends on which you use based on the number of mobs your tanking at a time; BB if more than 3, HS if 3 or less. Death and Decay is also highly useful in any situation, especially on initial pulls. Obviously, putting on diseases is very helpful, not only for your self healing but threat generation as well.

Although most players do keep an eye on their threat, or have some warning system letting them know they are quickly approaching the threat pull off of the tank, some players are just so ignorant of that fact that as harsh as it is to say, let em die. Teach them a lesson. And above all else, don't take any crap from anyone. It is the responsibility of all players in the group/raid to keep track of their threat and manage it. Me personally, I mark the target I'm tanking with the Skull icon on the fly. I tell my dps to dps skull whenever possible. And most people follow orders. It's simple and clear. If a dps epic fails at this, then they should be kicked, not you.

If you're starting out fresh as a tank, use CC even in normals until you get used to the pulls and figure out how much punishment you can take. Remember, DKs take more dmg than other tanks. It's our ability to self heal that can be both a boon and a bane. I've tanked both pre-patch and post-patch with my DK, and gotta admit this last patch really helped DK tanking. Still needs a few more improvements, but it has helped.

Lastly, just a little tip, I found that in the past, the glyphs for Pestilence and Blood Boil were great for wotlk content. Now, they are not. With so much CC going, the extra range from both these glyphs could actually hamper the efforts of CC instead of help. I've seen it in action, and 10 yard radius is more beneficial now than 15 yards. If you think about it, and see it in action, you'll probably agree.

Trust me, it'll take some getting used to. But if you stick with it, you'll do fine.

DarklingThrush
02-18-2011, 07:47 PM
[QUOTE=Lamneth;493669]@Nullset
It is the responsibility of all players in the group/raid to keep track of their threat and manage it. QUOTE]

As one mentor told me, "If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault; if the tank dies, it's the healer's fault; if dps dies, it's dps's fault." He also liked to say (to dps), "you pull it, you tank it."

Elechi
02-21-2011, 12:37 AM
[QUOTE=Lamneth;493669]@Nullset
It is the responsibility of all players in the group/raid to keep track of their threat and manage it. QUOTE]

As one mentor told me, "If the healer dies, it's the tank's fault; if the tank dies, it's the healer's fault; if dps dies, it's dps's fault." He also liked to say (to dps), "you pull it, you tank it."

This

Normally DPS should take care of their threat. If they only dps your main threat target they should never pull off you, except in some fights where the mechanics make it possible (aggro wipes and stuff ...)

If the healer pulls of you by healing you then you are doing something wrong. Normally this only happens when tanking multiple mobs and by accident ignoring one (not really possible with blood boil and death and decay). That one will then go for the healer because the healer generates aggro on all mobs by healing you. Simple solution, taunt it back and generate some aggro.

Hint: It can be very hard to see what mobs you have aggro on when tanking multiple mobs. Get the tidy plates/threat plates addons. It will make your life so much easier.

Robbmarrs
02-21-2011, 04:27 AM
Get the add on called TauntMaster. No explanation needed.

DarklingThrush
02-25-2011, 05:15 PM
I like tauntmaster. It not only shows threat, but allows you to taunt-off by clicking the persons name even if you can not find them in the fray (as long as they are in range and line-of-sight). Left click on the name for Death Grip, right click for Dark Command.

Regarding threat and whose fault it is when it goes bad: on rare occasions a healer may be responsible for mishandling their aggro - last night our party back-pulled and the healer ran away from me with her mobs instead of to me; I was trying to taunt off and hold the rest of the mobs and had to chase her down - but in general it is up to the healer and tank to "have each others' backs". Pro dps can do their jobs without putting too much strain on tank or heals by: watching their threat meters, using aggro dumps when appropriate, not standing in stuff and expecting to be healed through it, and (with rare exceptions) focusing on the tank's target. I learned a lot about being pro dps after I started tanking and seeing things from a tank's point of view. Now my hunter sets the tank as his focus at the beginning of a run, and has hot-keyed "misdirect to focus" and "assist focus" macros.

Agorna
02-26-2011, 08:59 PM
-I haven't tanked before. My main is a Mage that is pretty well geared (lots of heroics). Should I just suck it up and throw my DK into the normal queue and hope for the best? I know the theory, and what's going to save my ass, but I haven't done it in practice and I worry that I will be responsible for massive wipeage.

No matter how long you've been tanking sooner or later there's going to be a wipe. Just ignore the trolling dps who know nothing about tanking and move on. Best way to learn is to try.



-How is multiple target threat calculated? For instance if we're in Tol Vir there are tons of 4 group mobs. If I attack one mob (diseases, say) the others in the group will follow. If no DPS touch these extra adds will they eventually change their target based on what the DPS is doing to the mob I'm tanking?

Generally the only people who will pull aggro off of these mobs are AoE using dps or the healer. Can always throw out a BB after spreading diseases to be safe.


-Has the stigma of threat pulling changed since the Classic/BC days? It seems like now (and maybe this is just me reading tank threads too much) if a DPS pulls threat it's the tanks fault for not holding, but I remember back in the day, everyone had threatmeter and you made damn sure that you didn't pull ahead of the tank. Is this still the case in raids, or have tanks been given more threat generating abilities?

The only time dps will really pull threat off a DK is if they pop cds before you get a Rune Strike off (fail dps does do this a lot) or are on the wrong target. DnD + HS / BB spam normally makes holding AoE aggro pretty easy.

Jailbate
03-01-2011, 11:15 AM
I must have missed this in the Guide or the subsequent posts afterwards, but how much +hit does a DK tank need? I have looked at several in game DK tanks and a few on the armory and none have any +hit except what is a base stat on a piece of gear. How do we get passed the miss/parry/dodge issues to ensure we are holding aggro? Again if I missed that section could somebody link it? I started tanking a little in WoLK, but since my DK was an alt I didn't have much time to get serious about it. I am trying to get my DK geared enough to fill in if we don't have enough tanks for a our raids.

Swam
03-01-2011, 02:25 PM
So dks! we are getting a battle rez. Thoughts?
I for one like this as I almost never used my raise ally spell. I think they made a good move here. When they limited the number of battle rezes per battle it makes sense to give the skill to more classes so that more raids can use it. If a raid already has a druid or warlock than nada changes, but now others can benefit.

Elechi
03-02-2011, 02:37 AM
Love the battle rez

I don't raid but now I can rez the overaggroing/standing in stuff DPS so he/she can die again <evil smile>

Urythmic
03-02-2011, 03:10 PM
So dks! we are getting a battle rez. Thoughts?
I for one like this as I almost never used my raise ally spell. I think they made a good move here. When they limited the number of battle rezes per battle it makes sense to give the skill to more classes so that more raids can use it. If a raid already has a druid or warlock than nada changes, but now others can benefit.

Yeah, definitely a smart move by Blizz. It's a great idea. Now at least if your Druid goes down, you might be able to get him back before a wipe. ;-)

=============

I must say I'm loving the new Death Strike mechanics with stacking Blood Shields, especially in combination with Symbiotic Worm (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=92236). I managed to get 80K+ shields stacked a few times after I got the trinket last night. Here's one particularly nice sequence:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/36he6lt33bk41qt6/xe/?s=4065&e=4081&x=targetName%3D%27Urikslargda%27

Will of the Necropolis + Turn of the Worm + 40K Death Strike heals = WIN (well, maybe not win, but at least no damage for a while, lol)

Uranos7
03-03-2011, 05:57 AM
So dks! we are getting a battle rez. Thoughts?
I for one like this as I almost never used my raise ally spell. I think they made a good move here. When they limited the number of battle rezes per battle it makes sense to give the skill to more classes so that more raids can use it. If a raid already has a druid or warlock than nada changes, but now others can benefit.

Now I can settle accounts with all those druids that B Rezz'd me! ;)
(although I think it will be a while b4 i get caught up. ) :o

uglie
03-03-2011, 10:10 AM
I must have missed this in the Guide or the subsequent posts afterwards, but how much +hit does a DK tank need? I have looked at several in game DK tanks and a few on the armory and none have any +hit except what is a base stat on a piece of gear. How do we get passed the miss/parry/dodge issues to ensure we are holding aggro? Again if I missed that section could somebody link it? I started tanking a little in WoLK, but since my DK was an alt I didn't have much time to get serious about it. I am trying to get my DK geared enough to fill in if we don't have enough tanks for a our raids.
The only time aggro is effected by hit/exp is on the pull and before the first runestrike. After that vengence will allow you to keep aggro if you are doing your correct "rotation". Currently i run with 1.5% hit and 9 exp that comes from gear with no threat issues from any dps.

Uranos7
03-05-2011, 12:03 AM
I must have missed this in the Guide or the subsequent posts afterwards, but how much +hit does a DK tank need? I have looked at several in game DK tanks and a few on the armory and none have any +hit except what is a base stat on a piece of gear. How do we get passed the miss/parry/dodge issues to ensure we are holding aggro? Again if I missed that section could somebody link it? I started tanking a little in WoLK, but since my DK was an alt I didn't have much time to get serious about it. I am trying to get my DK geared enough to fill in if we don't have enough tanks for a our raids.

Hit has become less important in Cata, but if you find extra threat is needed 5% hit will give you 0% miss on lvl 85 target which should be enough for "Trash Clearing".

Cycorider
03-10-2011, 11:26 AM
I've been playing dk for a few years now and seen them evolve into cata Main tanking all raids in my guild but it seems since the launch of cata people are worried about the damage i take in raids etc. We've downed a few bosses with little trouble from my eyes. I've scoured forums going on about mastery vs avoidance and seem to have a good grip on that trying out both but when it comes down to the spec there isnt much to go on except what EJ set out which EVERYONE seems to follow yet i cant see reason to have abilites such as blood worms or lichborne or even the RP increase when i would rather take a AP or damage increase on diseases etc. Due to trying out different specs iv found that im not really missing the DRW either as stacking mastery my avoidance was pretty low so wasnt a reliable cd. Any help people can throw my way?

Riz
03-10-2011, 11:45 AM
pre 4.0.6 from a healing pov, i HATED healing dk'sd...they seemed to take nonstop dmg, of epic proportion...( currently of my 4 healers only my sham, and pally r 85)
from a tanking pov, i stopped my dkalmost immediatelyafter trying a few dungeon runs...The same reult, my avoidance was very low, and the hits were many..(my tanks r warr,pally,dk)

Since 4.0.6 my outlook has completely changed(from a tanking pov)...These are wondewrful tanks, and the adition of the new Masteryseems to be working as intended...
As a healer in 4.0.6, LEARN TO USE YOUR DS DAMMIT,Lol....Jk
It seems to be much easier healing dk tanks now..(The ones who utilize the blood shield)Although i have been favoring my Warr for tanking, (due to an overabundance of paladins) I no longer factor out my Dk, and enjoy him as much as ever..THANK YOU Blizz

Cycorider
03-10-2011, 11:58 AM
My BS is up basically as much as I can yet when a raid member checked damage i take compared ot other guilds/raids it seems i take more then i should be. Reading forums I've seen that its normal for dk's to take extra damage but apparently according to results a lesser geared dk following the EJ build is taking less damage then i am and surely having an extra "unreliable" cd isnt going to make that much difference. Bloodworms doesnt decrease damage and the lichborne ability just helps heal yourself with DC so I cant see any reason behind this?

Urythmic
03-11-2011, 10:56 AM
My BS is up basically as much as I can yet when a raid member checked damage i take compared ot other guilds/raids it seems i take more then i should be. Reading forums I've seen that its normal for dk's to take extra damage but apparently according to results a lesser geared dk following the EJ build is taking less damage then i am and surely having an extra "unreliable" cd isnt going to make that much difference. Bloodworms doesnt decrease damage and the lichborne ability just helps heal yourself with DC so I cant see any reason behind this?

If you feel bad about the damage you're taking, try doing Conclave with a Warrior tank. You'll suddenly feel very good about yourself. lol

Are you timing your DS for maximum heal/shield? How many DS do you use per minute? Are you using all your cooldowns as often as possible?

Stop worrying so much about how much damage you're taking and start looking closer at the gap between what you're taking and what you're self-healing. That's what really matters.

Bloodworms is a major part of your self-healing. You're sacrificing a lot of survival if you go without them. No question about it.

Lichborne (post-nerf) is still very effective if you plan for when to use it. I like to think of it as a more complicated version of the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. You can't use it very often, but it can give you a major recovery in a pinch.

Unless you're having threat problems, why are you worried about your AP? That's just not a big priority for a tank. Control and survival is your job.

By way of example, on Maloriak 10-man last night my self-heals and Blood Shields were accounting for nearly 16% of all healing done in the raid. My Bloodworms alone accounted for almost a third of that. During the course of one fight, for example, I took 3.8 million damage but self-healed/shielded 1.77 million, of which 540K came from the Bloodworms.

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/jbzgtr910lqve0li/sum/healingDone/?s=5583&e=6021

Cycorider
03-11-2011, 10:55 PM
I know AP isnt a priority stat for tanks i just think its better spent then the bloodworms, increased AP/strength should technically mean more damage = more healing/shielding unless im being completly retarded? so thought that they generally balance out aswell within the raid as it also helps hold aggro and deal damage which in certain fights probably need it. I scoured thru so many forums before deciding my spec and when i finally got one about bloodworms i cant say peoples reaction to them were too great.

I generally keep my cooldowns on rotation (unless i need specific ones for specific abilities) going back to my first post i dont really seem to miss DRW that much as im attempting the mastery route but respecced into it today and cant say it impressed me.

With my DS i try to time it for the right times to get maximum healing possible, cant particularly say how many times a minute i use it as i havnt got combat logs to hand but again due to a respec and glyph change so that i have more RP coupled with the glyph gives me an extra 16% which if im not mistaken is an extra 8% healing so im seeing your point about not worrying about the damage i take but seem to not be able to explain that to guild members.

Im open to critiscm here. As i said i know DK's take alot of damage and looking when i was facing the omnitron fight i only took about 20k more damage then a lesser geared druid tank (not sure if thats a viable point there or not) and needed less healing so maybe im worrying about nothing and just need to get used to the abuse im taking from bosses or is there room here for improvement? Also whats the view on Gargoyle vs swordshattering is it worth dropping 1-2k armour and a few k health for a 4% parry increase?

Crashe
03-13-2011, 02:22 PM
It seems that you're under the impression that Death Strike's heal scales with the amount of damage it does:


I know AP isnt a priority stat for tanks i just think its better spent then the bloodworms, increased AP/strength should technically mean more damage = more healing/shielding unless im being completly retarded?
This is untrue...the tooltip for Death Strike reads that it will heal you for 20% of the damage you have sustained during the preceding 5 seconds (29% when talented) with the minimum being 7% of your maximum health (10.15% when talented).

The amount healed by Death Strike has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of damage it deals.


...due to a respec and glyph change so that i have more RP coupled with the glyph gives me an extra 16% which if im not mistaken is an extra 8%... I'm assuming that you respecced into Runic Power Mastery and coupled that with Glyph of Death Strike in an attempt to increase the healing done by your Death Strike. Again, the amount of damage done by Death Strike has nothing to do with how much it heals, so your efforts were in vain. Sorry :(. The choices for increasing the effective heals of your Death Strike are to increase your stamina or to increase your mastery (aside from putting points into Improved Death Strike.

On a side note, there's an addon called Blood Shield Tracker that provides a graphical bar that displays how much heal you can expect to get out of Death Strike, very useful.


(regarding AP)...it also helps hold aggro and deal damage which in certain fights probably need it.

You have Vengeance as a passive ability. Vengeance increases your attack power by 5% of the damage you have taken. I and my DK tank friends find that, between the threat multiplier of Blood Presence and the extra threat provided by Vengeance, holding threat is a non-issue as long as DPS waits for a quick second before nuking. If you're having problems with threat, especially single target threat, you might want to reexamine your rotation.

One last thought on Stoneskin Gargoyle vs Stoneshattering: The extra parry from Stoneshattering does not factor in to parry's diminishing returns. Therefore, you should have as close to exactly 4% more parry than dodge as you can get if you elect to go with Stoneshattering. I firmly believe that you should use Gargoyle if you are prioritizing mastery at all as the extra 2% of stamina will result in Death Strike's base heal going up by 0.58% and the shield going up as well.

EDIT: My statement about 4% more parry with Stoneshattering is incorrect. Given the dodge and parry ratings with no gear at 85 (mine is 3.94 and 5.00, respectively) your dodge and parry % will not reflect a 4% greater parry rating. Your dodge and parry rating should be the same, regardless of which rune you use on your weapon.

Also, I need to give credit to the guys over at elitistjerks.com for the information I put out, as I only regurgitated it. They did all of the hard work.

Robbmarrs
03-13-2011, 09:21 PM
2 more add ons that can help you as a tank... especifically a DK.

Blood Shield Tracker
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/blood-shield-tracker.aspx

Vengeance Status
http://wow.curse.com/downloads/wow-addons/details/vengeance-status.aspx

These 2 along with Tauntmaster should help keep you in the know when tanking.

Michultradk
03-14-2011, 12:00 PM
You have Vengeance as a passive ability. Vengeance increases your attack power by 5% of the damage you have taken. I and my DK tank friends find that, between the threat multiplier of Blood Presence and the extra threat provided by Vengeance, holding threat is a non-issue as long as DPS waits for a quick second before nuking. If you're having problems with threat, especially single target threat, you might want to reexamine your rotation.

One last thought on Stoneskin Gargoyle vs Stoneshattering: The extra parry from Stoneshattering does not factor in to parry's diminishing returns. Therefore, you should have as close to exactly 4% more parry than dodge as you can get if you elect to go with Stoneshattering. I firmly believe that you should use Gargoyle if you are prioritizing mastery at all as the extra 2% of stamina will result in Death Strike's base heal going up by 0.58% and the shield going up as well.

I couldn't agree more with the threat statement, sometimes I glance at my threat meter and I'm so far ahead I could stop until the boss dies from half health. At one time I was neglecting my CD's for my threat as well, I have managed to get better at using them and my threat is still through the roof.
One thing I have started doing that helps me and it's trivial is having recount set on healing done and try to maximise your healing output per sec (HPS) vs. your DS usage, of course this goes along with reading your logs to see your blood shield sizes along with other helpful things. Me and a buddy DK were comparing HPS one night and he was way ahead of me; Him 3k HPS vs. Me at 1800 HPS. Gear roughly the same with me having a better trinket, shoulders and chest. Simply put I was not using DS enough and also not using my Blood Tap after every CD which was really hurting me healing wise. This was an easy fix by just re-prioritizing some key binds but it has made a big difference in my durability, I really couldn't believe I wasn't using it enough and argued at first, but I was wrong and more importantly my healers, and yours will as well love you for it.
Some numbers concerning Blood Worms on Chimaeron; Total healing done by me was 4,594,422 or 15.39% of total healing done and BW accounted for 1,011,236 or 3.39%. Thats nothing to complain about and I'm sure your raid group if given the chance would not choose to do without that healing.

I have never looked at the Gargoyle forge that way. I am currently using the Shattering forge and though it's RNG based, and according to you I have been using it wrongly because I have tried to keep my dodge and parry as close as possible but it does make sense because of the DR. I might go back to the Gargoyle and reforge my gear again for bigger BS healz. Funny enough I have been all over the board between avoidance vs. Mastery, I can safely say that at least you can see the numbers and hard results from Mastery.
At one time I was just under 20 mastery but my hit and exp. were very low, I forget exact numbers but they were low. I reforged some mastery/parry to hit and exp to bring my numbers up a little along with using the exp/hit weapon from deadmines I believe and it made my healz and overall general play seem smoother. Currently I'm at about 5% hit and 18 expertise and almost 18 mastery, though I feel I could lose a little exp. and may forge some for mastery soon.

@Robbmarrs - The Tauntmaster addon is a poor choice compared to Tidy Plates and Threat Plates IMHO. I'm also not sure about the vengeance status as well, seems a moot point to know about something that is there and working, just my opinion as I have not ever used it and would welcome some feedback.

Cycorider
03-15-2011, 08:32 AM
OK so basically i was being a little retarded, always nice to know :D Well iv reforged mostly all extra avoidance into mastery and switched back to gargoyle and it seems my heals/shields seem to have significantly increased. The Rp increase wasnt for DS as the glyph maxes outa t 40% anyways but the extra rune strike i could chuck in incase i did have threat issues but as you pointed out the threat increase from vengeance is enuff to keep me going so no problems there just was worried about the initial burst aggro as when you get mages and locks blowing cd's sometimes it gets abit crazy.

Still cant seem to figure out the deal with DRW is it a viable CD that will actually help you out in a pinch? I tested a spec with it and without it in raids and I cant see it making a difference what views do other people have?

Michultradk
03-15-2011, 09:55 AM
Still cant seem to figure out the deal with DRW is it a viable CD that will actually help you out in a pinch? I tested a spec with it and without it in raids and I cant see it making a difference what views do other people have?



There are many uses I'm sure, but I use it a lot when we have aggro'd large mobs of 5-8 count to help with not only my threat but also my Parry. I also pop Vial of Stolen Memories (http://ptr.wowhead.com/item=59515/vial-of-stolen-memories#shared-cooldown)to buff my dodge as well and it seems a good combo for those types of situations. Having the Runic Power needed for this is an after thought after a few seconds go by during the encounter, it pools very easy and during these situations you are doing more HS than RS so it comes easy. Don't forget that during boss fights the + 20% Parry is nothing to laugh at either and after your threat lead is high enough it's very easy to pool RP for a quick DRW along with adding your BS back and maybe another defensive CD for some relief on your healers, maybe during a re-positioning phase on a boss encounter where your healers are constantly having to dodge something.

Another addon I would suggest is DocsDebugRunes, it is very good at tracking everything a DK has to track and right out of the box requires very little configuration to work well.

Uranos7
03-15-2011, 10:12 AM
One last thought on Stoneskin Gargoyle vs Stoneshattering: The extra parry from Stoneshattering does not factor in to parry's diminishing returns. Therefore, you should have as close to exactly 4% more parry than dodge as you can get if you elect to go with Stoneshattering. I firmly believe that you should use Gargoyle if you are prioritizing mastery at all as the extra 2% of stamina will result in Death Strike's base heal going up by 0.58% and the shield going up as well.

TY I was wondering about that too. :o

Currently I carry Gargoyle on my main weapon, and have Back-ups with Sword Shattering and Spell Shattering for situational fights. :)

DarklingThrush
03-17-2011, 11:00 PM
Short answer: YES!

You should have DRW glyphed, of course. It then becomes both a great defensive CD and threat generator. Most of the time you won't need the extra threat, but occasionally it helps.

Cycorider
03-21-2011, 07:31 AM
Any particular reason you need to glyph it if your not having threat issues? Wouldnt that be like gemming HR if your already capped? abit pointless when you could use the glyph for something that might help you elsewhere? And can you actually say its an ability that will defffinatly save your life if needed considering its basically a luck based cd

DarklingThrush
03-22-2011, 04:26 AM
Even if you aren't having threat issues overall, there are still times when the extra burst is important: aggro resets, backpulls, etc. Most DKs do not find a lot of competition among the major glyphs, so finding a spot for DRW is not a problem. DRW, Vampiric Blood, and Rune Tap are my three. What else would you use in its place? AMS glyph is only important if you are having problems timing it (DBM takes care of that); Bone Shield glyph only matters if you are not using one of the movement-buff enchants on your boots (I use Lavawalker); Blood Boil and Pestilence glyphs are as likely to screw up your CC as they are to help; Strangulate and Death Grip glyphs have some utility but nothing indispensible.

No, I'll keep my DRW glyph. It may not be needed often, but on those occasions it is golden.

DarklingThrush
03-22-2011, 04:39 AM
I have read so many threads and mind-froze my own brain trying to decypher pages of complex mathematics, but there does not seem to be any clear consensus on this debate. I have gotten the impression that the change to stacking Blood Shields has tipped the scales a bit towards mastery, so earlier tonight I decided to give it a go. I did not scrap all my avoidance, but switched my JC-special gems and reforged a bit, leaving me with 13% dodge, 16% parry (using sword-shattering rune), and raising my Blood Shield % to 109%. I then tanked a quick random heroic (Shadowfang Keep) with one of my raid healers to get his thoughts.

The changes were dramatic: many more close calls in trash pulls, while boss fights were laughable as I often finished them with 50K+ damage absorption to spare. During trash pulls I simply did not have time to focus on Death Strikes because I needed to aggro the whole group. I had to drop DnD, spread diseases with Pestilence, hold them with Heartstrike... I slipped in Death Strikes where I could, but only on a hap-hazard basis. My healer agreed that I was harder to heal against trash, easier against bosses.

All that being said, trash pulls are a much smaller part of my tanking now and raid bosses much larger, so I expect to lean more towards mastery over avoidance as I move forward.

DarklingThrush
03-22-2011, 05:20 AM
Death Strike and Blood Shield will only be affected by Stoneskin Gargoyle if you are NOT taking enough damage to lift them above the bare minimum (which is based on your health), which probably means you are not in trouble and your choice of rune is less critical. Even then, they are only affected slightly. Swordshattering provides 4% parry that is not affected by deminishing returns, which is a great value as things stand now (4.0.6).

Michultradk
03-22-2011, 08:45 AM
I have read so many threads and mind-froze my own brain trying to decypher pages of complex mathematics, but there does not seem to be any clear consensus on this debate. I have gotten the impression that the change to stacking Blood Shields has tipped the scales a bit towards mastery, so earlier tonight I decided to give it a go. I did not scrap all my avoidance, but switched my JC-special gems and reforged a bit, leaving me with 13% dodge, 16% parry (using sword-shattering rune), and raising my Blood Shield % to 109%. I then tanked a quick random heroic (Shadowfang Keep) with one of my raid healers to get his thoughts.

The changes were dramatic: many more close calls in trash pulls, while boss fights were laughable as I often finished them with 50K+ damage absorption to spare. During trash pulls I simply did not have time to focus on Death Strikes because I needed to aggro the whole group. I had to drop DnD, spread diseases with Pestilence, hold them with Heartstrike... I slipped in Death Strikes where I could, but only on a hap-hazard basis. My healer agreed that I was harder to heal against trash, easier against bosses.

All that being said, trash pulls are a much smaller part of my tanking now and raid bosses much larger, so I expect to lean more towards mastery over avoidance as I move forward.

This is exactly what I did, our numbers are very close to the same and I do see the same problems you see. I often find myself popping
CD's to stay alive during trash pulls, but as you point out while tanking a single boss it's golden. So, you use Death Pact, IBF, trinkets and DRW during trash pulls and it works out. Blizzard did a good job not making one stat king here and the flavor feels really good. The statement about knowing your Death Knight, and if you know him/her well, then you are a good durable tank. If in fact you are not doing a few things right it can have wiping type consequences for you and the party. I am also getting better at keeping up Bladed Armor during my rotation by keeping my B runes on constant cool down but it takes some practice. It has become more critical than ever to watch your runes and use moves according to them instead of just whaling away and not paying attention, which is what I was doing to an extent.
A lot can be said when you're overgeared and tanking versus tanking end game content on the edge of your gear level, it really makes playing this content and this xpac fun to me and sometihng I didn't get to appreciate in Wrath.

DEAD7
03-27-2011, 05:20 PM
Death Strike and Blood Shield will only be affected by Stoneskin Gargoyle if you are NOT taking enough damage to lift them above the bare minimum (which is based on your health), which probably means you are not in trouble and your choice of rune is less critical. Even then, they are only affected slightly. Swordshattering provides 4% parry that is not affected by deminishing returns, which is a great value as things stand now (4.0.6).

vampiric blood, WotN and rune tap all benefit from from the increase in health. At higher gear levels (372+) i would expect stoneskin to pull ahead. As of right now they are pretty close, and are really a matter of preference.

Crom
03-28-2011, 08:13 AM
What I've read on other forums:

Normal content: Swordshattering > Stoneskin Gargoyle
Heroic content: Stoneskin Gargoyle > Swordshattering

But I didn't find any mathematic proof so far, seems more guessing based on WoL etc.

Crashe
03-28-2011, 05:57 PM
Death Strike and Blood Shield will only be affected by Stoneskin Gargoyle if you are NOT taking enough damage to lift them above the bare minimum (which is based on your health), which probably means you are not in trouble and your choice of rune is less critical. Even then, they are only affected slightly. Swordshattering provides 4% parry that is not affected by deminishing returns, which is a great value as things stand now (4.0.6).

Like the title says, excellent point and, for some reason, something that I did not think about as I was considering reforging options. Thank you for helping me pull my head out of my @$$. The only downside is that now I have to re-reforge and possibly regem.

I'm fairly certain that the extra 4% armor from Stoneskin will not compare to the extra 4% parry as far as effective health and damage taken goes, but are there any math wizards out there who can put up numbers to support it?

XCrappy PappyX
04-01-2011, 10:48 PM
Another addon I would suggest is DocsDebugRunes, it is very good at tracking everything a DK has to track and right out of the box requires very little configuration to work well.

Are there any other addons to help DK's? I'm particularly bad about letting my plagues fall off, but if DDR tracks everything I'm assuming it tracks those too.

Robbmarrs
04-02-2011, 05:48 AM
Try Inline Aura from Curse.com which shows the time remaining on the action bar itself. DDR is pretty good too... even better when you take the time to customize your bar positions where you can easily see.

Austinpowers
04-03-2011, 06:59 PM
This is a macro i use for diseases and i keep them up all the time. Its pretty easy to remember when to click it due to the auto changing of the icon.

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=40 Pestilence, Outbreak, Pestilence
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Once you hit icy touch with plague strike, use pestilence then the screen will auto switch to outbreak. once the dieases get close to getting over hit it again then pestilence and it will start over again. The constant changing on the icon helps when it auto switches abilites.

uglie
04-04-2011, 12:57 AM
This is a macro i use for diseases and i keep them up all the time. Its pretty easy to remember when to click it due to the auto changing of the icon.

#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=40 Pestilence, Outbreak, Pestilence
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()

Once you hit icy touch with plague strike, use pestilence then the screen will auto switch to outbreak. once the dieases get close to getting over hit it again then pestilence and it will start over again. The constant changing on the icon helps when it auto switches abilites.
Pestilence doesn't refresh your diseases single target even when glyphed. I do believe with the way your macro is written the button will show up pestilence>outbreak>pestilence>pestilence>outbreak>pestilence.

Austinpowers
04-04-2011, 01:49 AM
Pestilence doesn't refresh your diseases single target even when glyphed. I do believe with the way your macro is written the button will show up pestilence>outbreak>pestilence>pestilence>outbreak>pestilence.

Its not for auto refreshing. An basic opener after using dnd is usualy icy touch then plague strike followed by pestilence. (When its aoe). Once you hit pestilence the icon will go to outbreak and you have 40sec to hit it or it will auto switch to pestilence. This also helps me keepin track of diseases since i know when outbreak is up time to hit it again soon.

Swam
04-11-2011, 08:32 PM
Well its happened... Im bored with the dk and tanking in general. Its just gotten too easy. I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good :p but most of the time I am raiding I am watching tv... and im focused on the tv. I still somehow rank on both the dps and healing charts on one of the wow charting sites. I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back. I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe. I hate to say that but when I can pull 9-14k dps as the tank depending on how much I pay attention and can survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke.
I hope the removal of dk healing generating threat is implemented soon.

klausi
04-12-2011, 12:06 AM
I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good :p
Bring the class not the player :p


I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back.
That's something i noticed as well. First thought? Stacked vengeance helps you here but to be honest DK pull off insane tps values even with zero vengeance stacks. Why is that?
a) Huge amount of double dip via death strike heal+damage, that's addressed in 4.1 (finally!)
b) Runestrike, it's just to good to be true. An attack that never misses or either get's dodged or parried and you spam it basically at least every third global? That's awesome! I'd give my left arm for that adjustment on eg heroic strike.
c) While all other tanks aim for parry/dodge/mastery or crit/dodge/mastery on their gear it's ok to have some % hit and expertise to connect your death strikes. In worst case another tank ends up with almost 30% chance to not connect (14% parry, 6.5% dodge, 8% miss) with his attacks and they are all build around tps spikes with a cooldown (sotr, shield slam, mangle).
d) you don't need to be hit to deal almost your full amount of tps, a rage based class needs the additional rage from being hit to convert them into heroic strikes/maul. All you get from maintanking is Scent of Blood proccs besides the tps from Death Strike.


I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe.
Blood shield is hard to balance for mastery stacker while Death Strike simply heals a fair amount on it's own as well. But you shouldn't underestimate the block tanks, taking ~40% less frontload damage is pretty neat. The problem are the large amount of cooldowns, if you manage them properly you can cover large timeframes with a rather short downtime.


survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke.
I did something similar on my paladin alt, if you can absorb/deny some stacks from the Nezir the rest is totally doable. That's a problem with bubble/ams and not with the tanks itself. The bosses hits fairly weak (10k/swing on average for a block tank) and this fight comes only down to handling the energy properly on normal mode.

vsb
04-17-2011, 11:06 PM
Well its happened... Im bored with the dk and tanking in general. Its just gotten too easy. I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good but most of the time I am raiding I am watching tv... and im focused on the tv. I still somehow rank on both the dps and healing charts on one of the wow charting sites. I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back. I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe. I hate to say that but when I can pull 9-14k dps as the tank depending on how much I pay attention and can survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke. I guess you overgeared content. 9 aberrations on Maloriac HM can kill me in few seconds with IBF up. Nezir at Conclave hc periodically drops me below 50% with few hits, while my healer runs from ice patch. Magmaw hc hits me for 100k+ every 2.5 sec (without absorbs). I'm doing my best with chaining cooldowns and timing death strikes to survive this hell, and it's definitely not that easy.

Also threat matters. Good DPS with average 25k dps, prepotting and bloodlusting at pull will require you to provide 50-60k tps right from start. Misdirect helps but you must keep high TPS too, misdirects are not silver bullet, it's just 4 second theat transfer. Especially considering that rogue can use their tricks on other rogue/mage to boost raid damage, if tank can deal with it.

From my expierence, playing Blood DK is quite challenging task buy I like it this way.

Swam
04-17-2011, 11:23 PM
9 aberrations is easy. 12 makes me run for my life.

Bovinity
04-30-2011, 04:59 PM
Well its happened... Im bored with the dk and tanking in general. Its just gotten too easy. I dont know if its the game or I have just gotten that good but most of the time I am raiding I am watching tv... and im focused on the tv. I still somehow rank on both the dps and healing charts on one of the wow charting sites. I get annoyed as hell because when I an in a tank swap fights and the warrior tank in my group taunts the boss off of me I have to stop attacking in order not to pull aggro back. I self heal roughly 40-60% of my damage taken as well. So either i am playing really above par which I doubt or dks are a bit op right now. Nerf needed maybe. I hate to say that but when I can pull 9-14k dps as the tank depending on how much I pay attention and can survive for several minutes without heals for raid bosses if I manage my cooldowns, there is something wrong. I have tanked the council of the 4 winds with no dedicated healer before. Its kind of a joke.

Sounds a lot like you're raiding normal modes in full 359 and maybe some 372's. Naturally it seems super easy.

Carighan
05-04-2011, 06:09 AM
9 aberrations is easy. 12 makes me run for my life.

Briefly.

brunotri
05-12-2011, 06:58 PM
Which rune is the best for my DK? Or should i enchant my weapon with Windwalker ( 600 dodge on hit and 15% move speed)?
here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gurubashi/zeener/simple

uglie
05-12-2011, 09:18 PM
Which rune is the best for my DK? Or should i enchant my weapon with Windwalker ( 600 dodge on hit and 15% move speed)?
here is my armory http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/gurubashi/zeener/simple
I prefer stoneskin gargoyle, but most say swordshatter. I like SSG simply because it seemed to smooth out my dmg spikes. No math to prove this is just the feeling i got from the times i tried swordshattering.

Michultradk
05-16-2011, 05:23 AM
You should go with the Gargoyle forge, and like the above poster says I think you'll see your dmg intake flatten out somewhat.

Crittable
05-23-2011, 12:15 PM
So out of these 19 pages on this thread and the 302 pages in the HALP! forum, I haven't been able to find solid advice on how to pull a trash pack as a DK in a cata heroic and minimize my spike dmg taken.

Example:
2 melee and 2 casters pull in Heroic Deadmines. I have the rogue sap one of the casters and I'll Death Grip the other caster to my DnD that was put down prior to the pull which pulls the two melee as well. I then use this particular rotation: Icy Touch, Plague Strike, Pestilence, Blood Boil, Heart Strike and/or Rune Tap to give me my Blade Barrier, then Death Strike to pop up my Blood Shield considering the most damage I take is probably going to be before my Blade Barrier is up as well as it gives me a little buffer while I'm gaining a little more threat with Rune Strike and more Heart Strikes. If the dps pull the mobs before I get my first Blood Boil off, I see that with my Threat Plates and I'll use it at that time instead, however this doesn't usually happen because my DnD does fine holding the trash for those 1-2 GCD's needed.

The problem with this is:
The healer says that I take a lot of spike damage. I am trying to minimize that.

I was healing a DK tank while on my pally the other night that took little to absolutely no spike damage. That was the easiest tank that I have ever healed before and she wasn't using any CC. Also, she wasn't raid geared, only heroic blues and rep epics. I only wish that I remembered the name of that dk so that I can look her up. I want to be like her. I want to smooth out the damage enough to make my healers want to heal me more than any other tank.

I am currently gearing up so, at the moment, I only have 11% dodge and 12% parry while using the stoneskin gargoyle runeforge. I am gemming for a mix of stamina and avoidance (parry/sta for reds, dodge/sta for yellows, generally solid sta in blues for the moment) and reforging for both mastery and avoidance.

So, my questions are... is there a different opening priority system that will reduce my spike damage taken or will mine suffice when my gear gets better? Would different stat priorities decrease those spikes or, at least, minimize how often they occur? I do try to keep Bone Shield up before every pull (which is something that I honestly need to work on) but are there other things that I can do for each and every pull to achieve the goal that I am looking to achieve?


PS I know this would probably be better suited in the HALP! forum, however I don't want this to just be about me. Since I could not locate this information anywhere else and I'm sure I'm not the only tank trying out a DK and loving it, I wanted the answers to these questions to be shown to others who read this guide as a starter.

Bigbad
05-23-2011, 03:33 PM
What seems to work for me is DnD>outbreak>heartstrike(to get some innitial aggro)>pestilence and then tabtargetting deathstrikes & runestrikes. If I feel I don't need the heal/shield that much I'll replace a DS with 2 heartstrikes for some extra damage. Have your boneshield up before the pull and use vamp blood freely.

Kemanorel
07-09-2011, 06:48 AM
I find I take significantly less damage when:

A) Blood Barrier is up.

B) Full diseases on anything trying to hurt me (2 basic and the talented one)

C) Bone shield helps. Pre-casting before pulls lets it come off CD mid-fight for an added help.

D) Maybe its me, but I am cooldown happy... In rough going I'm chaining&stacking them and so on.

E) Bad guys casting spells... no. Mind Freeze and Strangulate (Strangulate a caster at range and it comes right to you).

cuttingblack
07-29-2011, 07:43 AM
I find I take significantly less damage when:

A) Blood Barrier is up.

B) Full diseases on anything trying to hurt me (2 basic and the talented one)

C) Bone shield helps. Pre-casting before pulls lets it come off CD mid-fight for an added help.

D) Maybe its me, but I am cooldown happy... In rough going I'm chaining&stacking them and so on.

E) Bad guys casting spells... no. Mind Freeze and Strangulate (Strangulate a caster at range and it comes right to you).


Further to the above, if you pop Vamp Blood on the pull, your healer's first (usually smaller) heals will help keep you nicely topped up without them having to dig deep into their mana pool and you can focus on grabbing threat. With really strong or overgeared healers this usually isn't necessary.

In caster heavy pulls, pop AMS right at the start, and in support of point E above, get your group to do interrupts! Most people undervalue a simple interrupt or silence. If the add can't cast/use his ability, it's not going to hurt you is it?

Also, avoidance is very effective against trash packs in dungeons; their hit tends to be low enough for DRW (assuming you have the RP for it) or an on-use avoidance trinket to smooth out your damage in-take quite a bit. This is even more effective coupled with Bone Shield; the first 4 hits that actually make it through your avoidance, get absorbed by the shield. By that time your healer is in their groove, you have RP for DRW (if you haven't used it yet) or Lichborne, you still have your big CDs, and it's cake.


Finally, WHEN you deathstrike is key; you can spam it, and that works, but it leads to odd little hops in your health pool. If you practice timing it to your damage intake, you can make it work much more 'evenly'. You don't want to leave it too long, though; the Bloodshield tracker add-on is very helpful in this area. Also make sure you get at least 1 deathstrike in really early to provide you with a small buffer, and don't forget to keep throwing the odd one or two into your rotation, even when building threat.


From there, it's just practice, practice, practice. I highly recommend pugging for this; it's painful sometimes, but you get so many different types of healers that way, and you have to learn to deal with almost any situation, which teaches you more about how to tank than any amount of discussion.

cuttingblack
07-29-2011, 08:13 AM
You should go with the Gargoyle forge, and like the above poster says I think you'll see your dmg intake flatten out somewhat.

Gargoyle won't flatten out damage spikes (and neither will Swordshattering); if you take 10k damage, 9k damage, 11k damage, then 20k, that's a spike, and having those numbers become (hypothetically) 9k, 8.1k, 9.9k and 18k due to reduced physical damage intake won't diminish the spike in any significant manner. The spike will be a smaller % of your health both because the actual damage was reduced and because your health pool is larger, but you will still see a marked difference between the "low" damage points and the "high" damage points, ergo a "spike".

Gargoyle is great if your health-pool is low, and you really struggle to take big melee hits, due to lower gear. It gives that little more time to deal with dangerous situations with your cooldowns, and your healers feel more comfortable with the extra head-room, especially since some of the bigger "OMG!" heals are based on % of overall health, rather than a flat number.

Swordshattering is better when you want to take less hits, and becomes more valuable as you tank larger and larger groups of enemies, especially since it's a flat rate increase and stacks with DRW nicely. At lower gear levels, the 4% flat rate is pretty weak, though, since the overall benefit of stacking avoidance (as a DK) is low to start with. The disarm reduction is a nice plus, but not very useful in most dungeons.

SS is also the better enchant at higher gear levels, imo; the % armour boost from Gargoyle is not that big, since our base armour value is pretty low, and health pools become less important as you progress. You begin to favour gems and enchants for mastery above stamina in every way, and the flat rate increase of parry from SS on top of your already high parry rating from gear adds more value than the small armour increase already mentioned. Also disarm against big bosses in raids starts to become important, even if most of them don't do disarms. For that one boss that does, you really don't want to be denied your deathstrikes for too long.

gala3
08-11-2011, 11:10 PM
good post

Crashe
08-23-2011, 08:26 PM
This question is regarding the T12 2 piece bonus (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=98956): "Your melee attacks cause Burning Blood on your target, which deals 800 fire damage every 2 sec for 6 sec and causes your abilities to behave as if you had 2 diseases present on the target"

Q: Does anybody know if the bonus only applies to the additional damage you get from having 2 diseases up for abilities like HS and BB and not to the debuffs applied by the diseases that Burning Blood represents? Or in other words, do I still have to reapply Frost Fever (via Icy Touch) and Scarlet Fever (via Plague Strike) if I have the 2pc bonus and Burning Blood is up (meaning that Burning Blood is applying the 20% attack speed debuff and the 10% physical damage debuff)?

cuttingblack
09-06-2011, 08:00 AM
The 2pc does not apply the debuffs. It's quite specific in terms of the wording, and only pure damage is applied, so abilities like Blood-caked Blade will apply their additional damage, which is ordinarliy based on how many diseases you have up, as if you ALWAYS have both diseases up, for as long as your 2pc buff is active. There are a few other abilities which work in this way, but not meany, and really, you should always have both of your diseases up on all targets you are tanking.

[Going off at a slight tangent] The only possible exception could be if you are a tanking a boss in 25-man and someone else (another tank, most likely, or possibly a frost DK for Frost Fever) is applying the debuffs. If you're a DK tank in a 10-man raid-group, then you are almost certainly going to be *that* guy for at least 1 of your diseases, so you might as well be applying both - that said, it ultimately depends on your raid comp, obviously.

In summary, our 2pc sucks. You only go for the set pieces if you want 4pc, and 4pc is well worth getting, make no mistake, but until you have 4 pieces, I would suggest using other gear than set-gear IF and only IF it is better itemised in terms of defense stats, i.e. Mastery, Dodge and Parry, in that order of preference (Mastery > Dodge > Parry).


Also, I highly recommend reading this post. It's the most concise account of what really makes a good DK tank that I've yet to come across, with some useful boss tips for Firelands:
Riggnaros on DK End-game Raid tanking (http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t125290-blood_dk_endgame_tanking_4_x/p5/#post1990475)

nzall
09-21-2011, 10:23 AM
The original posts seem quite out of date. They're talking about pre 4.1 or even pre 4.0.6 mechanics. For example, DK demo shout analogue is no longer applied by blood boil, but by blood plague. Will these posts be updated with current knowledge and mechanics? Because this is one of the few remaining blood DK guides i can find, apart from the one on Elitist Jerks.

Krenian
09-21-2011, 02:20 PM
I don't think Satorri is around much anymore so someone else may have to take the torch for this. I'm dpsing so my blood tanking is nonexistent.

Which reminds me. Imma have to write a guide soon for it.

igor5
03-04-2012, 11:29 AM
Hello!!!! Good post!!!!!!!

cuttingblack
03-05-2012, 05:48 AM
I don't think Satorri is around much anymore so someone else may have to take the torch for this. I'm dpsing so my blood tanking is nonexistent.

Correct; he hung up his hat some time ago; just under a year ago now, I think.

If anyone will be taking his work and moving it into the future of WoW, you'll most likely find them on pwnwear.com; this is to Blood DKs the "go to" site for all basic and advanced information. EJ elaborates on some of the more involved conversations, and discusses the finer points of some aspects of build vs. others, but this all feeds back into pwnwear anyway. I found it incredibly useful as a resource while I was active, although I've been out of WoW for a couple of months now.