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View Full Version : Tanking Warrior - What to get with frost? Need more expertise?



Tsanas
10-05-2010, 10:30 PM
Hello..

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ravencrest&cn=Sympthom&gn=OHNOMYMONKEYISONFIRE

I need some advice on what to spend frost on.
I was thinking about replacing my chest, since its the lowest ilvl.

But if I go for tier10 chest : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50850 - I loose 90 def and 69 expertise. Lame?

So maby this chest instead? : http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50968

I just feel that tier10 is actually pretty bad..
Pff.. I just really need a second opinion :p

Vong
10-06-2010, 03:12 AM
Um maybe log out in your fury spec might help ;-)

Tsanas
10-06-2010, 04:33 AM
Eh.. Not sure how that would help, since im a tank :confused:
My main concern is expertise.. Too often am I being dodget or parried..

Just yesterday I engaged lich king and my first 2-3 hits were "dodge" "parry" "dodge"..
Thats just why I think I need more expertise, and I think I should get

http://www.wowhead.com/?item=50968 insted of the tier10..

Vong
10-06-2010, 05:18 AM
Ok my bad. Hadn't woken up when I first read it. :-)
Ok for experitse your on 18 which is one more than me and I've never had a prob with this in icc. Cata chest will be a huge upgrade for your other stats importantly stam. At the cost of too many other stats it's pointless to stack expertise as tanks. You have plenty if you do get cata chest maybe stick some on your gloves if u feel u need too. But if your having probs with aggro maybe you need to look at something else and not expertise.
TC and shockwave are both good openers that won't miss and if you have dps that will wait 2-3 secs then you shoudnt have any probs ever. Landsouls spreadsheet might be a good ref point to see what you can change safely but I've looked at many tanks who sit far lower than me on exp and have tanked everything.
Good luck.

Vong.
EU Alonsus.

Loganisis
10-06-2010, 08:43 AM
H Halion 25 and H Sind 25 are the only fights where expertise matters much while tanking. If you have threat issues, exp is among the worst ways to go after it.


The facts about Expertise and Hit in the current game.

Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

****

LK was bad luck. It happens sometimes. You should always being opening with SS though. What I do to pull him is wait until he's in taunt range, taunt, Heroic Throw, and then wait for him to get to me. This puts me above the healers in threat comfortablly, the DPS holds off attcking until he's in position and then they can't catch up for threat (unless one of our friend of the guild ICC25 partially H geared hunters is helping - but they use MD/FD so it's all good)

Make sure you have the highest threat DPS without a threat dump Vig'd (unless you are comfortable with staying ahead of them), make sure you hold to the prioirty system (SS > Rev > SW > Conc Blow > Dev with HS queued and TC / Demo shout used as necessary, if at all and if so just to refresh).

If you have similarlly geared players, you should have no problems with aggro, so the Dodge Parry Dodge was just bad luck.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.

You should go for Cataclysmic, but not because of the expertise. Cataclysmic has more armor and more stamina and thus more EHP.

Head and shoulders offer very little survivability trade off and are the best places to get the 2pc tier bonus.

The skinny of it is the Emblem Chest + Gloves > 251 Tier Chest/Gloves + 264 unless you have the 4pc and then only for big burst fights like heroic modes. It's not until the 277 level the tier gear is better in every case.

***

Now the caveat on this is everything is likely changing in a week when 4.0.1 drops and the world gets turned upside down for a while.

Suggestions:

Replace the Exp/Sta gem with Dodge/Sta
Replace the Def/Sta gem with pure Sta (you have 568 def, you're good)
Replace Armsman on your gloves with the stamina armor kit

It's maybe personal preference, but I'd move The Black Heart to your bag for situational fights and run with Glyph of Idom and it's 1792 armor in your base set.

Put the +40 crit scope on your gun, makes TC crit a little more often.

***

If threat is an issue - roll on the Scourgebane/Scourgeborne Waraxe (whatever it's called) from Gunship 25 (H mode even better). Big 'ol threat stick plus is an EHP increase over your current weapon.

Tsanas
10-07-2010, 12:00 AM
Thanks alot for the competent reply's.

Threat is not really an issue, generally..
All my gems are Sta, and I intend to keep it that way, and I will go for Cataclysmic chest next..

I just have a couple of questions:

1) Wouldnt you keep Armsman on gloves if thread was an issue?

2) If we're talking EH, are you saying "1792 armor > 126 stam"? But how would you calculate that? Is there any rule-of-thumb?
What do you consider a "situational fight", in which to use The Black Heart?
What about Lich King? Black Heart or Glyph of Idom?


Thanks again for the reply's


Edit:
What the hell.. One of my gems on bracers is def/sta.. Disregard that..

Edit2:
What food buff would you recommend? And what about flask / battle+guardian?

theodisius
10-07-2010, 03:40 AM
If you have threat issues, exp is among the worst ways to go after it.

That may be right - as you quoted, rotation etc matter much more and threat should not be a problem usually if you play right - but it should be noted that expertise is probably the best single stat for threat. At least, that's the conclusion of theckhd's matlab analysis of palatanks on maintankadin.com and he reckons expertise is even more valuable to warriors.

I have a budding prot warrior and am missing the +10 expertise glyph my main palatank has. I am definitely looking for gear to boost that. I guess it depends what you are tanking, but for many at as this stage of the expansion, I think boosting dps/threat can be as worthwhile as boosting survivability. My alt has a 232 item level weapon competing with 264 or higher geared dps. She also has more than enough survivability for the raid content she's likely to face.

Vong
10-07-2010, 04:38 AM
Hi.
You also have a exp/stam gem in your helm but I'd does activate a +12 stam so bleh.
Armsman on gloves is ok but I'd your rotation is good and dps are swichted on then stam or armour if your an engineer would be better.
Trinkets.
Glyph is far better on physical fights over BH due to EHP maths (which I won't try to explain there's a really good thread on here that will do that) the armour buff and therefor the EHP is constant and not a proc. If your sat there wishing for that proc then your using it wrong.
Static armour on melée heavy fights is far better that some more health and a "sometimes" proc. Magical heavy fights stam the key and either brewfest trink or similar.
With the bonus green number armour items available you can hit 33-34k armour easily and then your +70% dam reduction.

Vong

icantfindone
10-07-2010, 06:32 AM
On tank swap fights* TBH has awesome uptime on the proc, due to the high proc rate and short-ish ICD. As soon as you taunt, and begin getting hit, the armor procs reliably. It also is a nice balance of working well against both magic and physical damage. Except for a few specific fights, the armor on Glyph is superior.

* Specifically - Deathwhisper, DBS, P3 Professor Putricide. On Marrowgar it could be very nice after bonestorm. It could reliably proc after Marrowgar returns to the tanks and starts swinging again, giving you a nice armor bonus while healers move back into position underneath his rear.

As far as buff food, I have always been partial to Blackened Dragonfin, the 40 agility gives armor, and a small bit of dodge, and crit. Stoneblood flask gives most EHP, unless you need resistance for Sindragosa.

ironsides
10-07-2010, 07:01 AM
In terms of the armsman, the parry does basically nothing for you. Thus unless your not doing content that hurts you (which I hope you guild is still trying to progress) then survivability is key, good players and a good tank can handle threat without alot of expertise and without armsman. I personally go for the armor kit, but the stam one works as well. I also use dodge + stam over exp + stam. And that's only in the helm socket for meta and big socket bonus.

Again like somebody said the world is gonna get turned upside down for a bit come 4.0.1(next tuesday?) alot of bonus armor is being removed from items and what not ... or so I have heard. So really it's gonna be alot of hectic confusion for a few weeks until we all figure out exactly what we should be doing in terms of gearing at first. I am not sure hour amazing cataclysmic chest guard will be after next patch but right now it is amazing and it gives you expertise with little sacrifice (by sacrifice I mean the def/dodge loss which is miniscule compared to stam + armor gains).

Anyway goodluck and I am sure we will all be asking questions in a weeks time.

Loganisis
10-07-2010, 07:20 AM
Thanks alot for the competent reply's.

Threat is not really an issue, generally..
All my gems are Sta, and I intend to keep it that way, and I will go for Cataclysmic chest next..

I just have a couple of questions:

1) Wouldnt you keep Armsman on gloves if thread was an issue?

2) If we're talking EH, are you saying "1792 armor > 126 stam"? But how would you calculate that? Is there any rule-of-thumb?
What do you consider a "situational fight", in which to use The Black Heart?
What about Lich King? Black Heart or Glyph of Idom?


Thanks again for the reply's


Edit:
What the hell.. One of my gems on bracers is def/sta.. Disregard that..

Edit2:
What food buff would you recommend? And what about flask / battle+guardian?


#1 - No. 2% is irrelvent. If threat is an issue there are fundemntal issues (you're running with a 251 wep, they're running with 271 etc... or rogues aren't tricking you, hunter's are MD. Rogues/Hunters aren't vanishing/FD... Pallys aren't Hand of Savling high threat raid members.... You aren't viging the right target... Your rotation is poor - maybe having a hard time keeping HS queued....)

/combatlog a fight and upload it to WoL and then link it. More targetted help can be there.

Just make sure you are using the right prioirty yourself...
SS > Rev > SW/Conc Blow (one is better than the other, but i can't remember which) > Dev. HS is always queued up.

2. Rule of thumb, 11 armor = 1 stamina. But it's more than just that. Armor also makes your healer's heals more effective. So if you have healers that are just barely keeping you topped off or fighting to, armor > Stamina. For LK - At 30% I'd still go with Glyph myself when I've been tanking because even though Soul Reaper hits for a boatload, it's the 5 seconds after that if you don't tank-swap that are hardest for healers, at least from what I've heard.

It's the more effective healing that would also make me run with Clut of Fort over Harbringer's for the extra armor. It's a slight EHP loss, but IMO, made up for with easing your healer's tasks (the JC gem can be moved anywhere so it's 114 sta + 560 armor versus 154 sta)


That may be right - as you quoted, rotation etc matter much more and threat should not be a problem usually if you play right - but it should be noted that expertise is probably the best single stat for threat. At least, that's the conclusion of theckhd's matlab analysis of palatanks on maintankadin.com and he reckons expertise is even more valuable to warriors.

I have a budding prot warrior and am missing the +10 expertise glyph my main palatank has. I am definitely looking for gear to boost that. I guess it depends what you are tanking, but for many at as this stage of the expansion, I think boosting dps/threat can be as worthwhile as boosting survivability. My alt has a 232 item level weapon competing with 264 or higher geared dps. She also has more than enough survivability for the raid content she's likely to face.

It is more valuable than hit. And Str/Agi are worthless as threat stats. So in that regard it is the best threat stat. But it's still not going to help you as much as other abilities that are probably not being made use of, either by the OP or by other raid members.

Especially in the LK fight, when if you make it past P1 you have no threat issues once the first Valk comes up.

As for your alt... When you get a 251+ wep, you'll realize how low importance expertise is. Rimefang's/Wrist Chopper is going to be tough for any tank to hold threat against ICC10H/ICC25 geared players without smart help from the raid.

I run with 170 hit and 15 exp or so and I have zero threat issues (outside of an early trigger finger by DPS) despite everyone else using 264+ weps by this point.

Unless you're running no Pallys, no Hunters, and no Rogues, it's hard to imagine any scenario where you need expertise outside of heroic dragons for survability. Glyph of Devastate was a huge boost needed when the 30% buff dropped (first time I was out-threated after getting Bonebreakers - by a Ret Pally who was a total recount whore) - after Glyph of Devastate, no issue.

Expertise isn't very necessary. Sometimes you just bite the RNG bullet.

Loganisis
10-07-2010, 07:28 AM
Again like somebody said the world is gonna get turned upside down for a bit come 4.0.1(next tuesday?) alot of bonus armor is being removed from items and what not ... or so I have heard. So really it's gonna be alot of hectic confusion for a few weeks until we all figure out exactly what we should be doing in terms of gearing at first.

Green armor isn't being removed, but it's being nerfed to holy hell.... 200 or 300 hundred instead of 500-1500. :-(

Also, apparently the 30% buff is going away. Healers mana is going to be an issue as their heals are more expensive and heal for less. DPS is going to have new priority systems and must carefully manage resources. I think Pallys are in for a rude awakening as AD becomes a CD O_O. In other words, 4.0.1 is going to be cataclysmic for raiding.

SonnyJr
10-07-2010, 10:29 PM
im a tank i don't play wow anymore it sucks but i stack stamina...i like lots of help anyone who tells you to gem anything else is a nub...i never get dodged or parried ever...never been a problem but i would not hesitate or mind or think it would hurt to put an expertise gem in there if theres no plus 30 stamina. Stamina stacker all the way. i get to over 70k buffed in icc 10 mans. I just like lots of health and i see no point to gemming for parry.dodge or anything else ...you get enough of it from the gear you have. Expertise gems don't hurt but id go stamina first.

SonnyJr
10-07-2010, 10:34 PM
Hardcore raiders will have tier-10 but they probably als have 3 other sets...i agree with you..the vendor gear is better than the tier-10..i myself use the Cataclysmic chestguard or whatever its called and the leggings blacksmiths make...i wouldn't ever switch for tier -10 unless i had extra frost id pick them up so i can save 90 more frosts then trade them in for the next pair up...25 man content with the trophy...or heroic ones...because you need to get them all i think...you need the first pair to get the second.expertise and stamina are the two most important things as a tank...no matter what anyone says..if they tell you different they're nubs.

icantfindone
10-08-2010, 05:22 AM
expertise and stamina are the two most important things as a tank...no matter what anyone says..if they tell you different they're nubs.

Slow down Sonny. Armor and stam are the two most important stats for a tank. As far as legs, Pillars of Mights are best in slot, due to the massive bonus armor. The t10 legs are the weakest among all available legs. Whether you are aiming to get the 2 piece or the 4 piece bonus, you should always be using the off-set legs, either the Heroic Legguards of Lost Hope, or Pillars of Might. There is no reason to have the t10 legs, unless you are trying to hard cap expertise for a specific mechanic (Heroic Halion 25).

Expertise is just about the 2nd to last stat that I worry about as a tank, only slightly ahead of spirit =P. If it happens to show up on my gear I choose for EHP, sure I'll take it, but I definitely don't go out of my way to get it, or gem for it. I activate my meta with Agi/Stam Dreadstone.

Vong
10-08-2010, 09:54 AM
Hardcore raiders will have tier-10 but they probably als have 3 other sets...i agree with you..the vendor gear is better than the tier-10..i myself use the Cataclysmic chestguard or whatever its called and the leggings blacksmiths make...i wouldn't ever switch for tier -10 unless i had extra frost id pick them up so i can save 90 more frosts then trade them in for the next pair up...25 man content with the trophy...or heroic ones...because you need to get them all i think...you need the first pair to get the second.expertise and stamina are the two most important things as a tank...no matter what anyone says..if they tell you different they're nubs.

Lol. Proberly a good thing you don't play with this outlook. Pillars of Might are BIS unroll 277 heroic ones. Fact. 2 pieces of tier 10 is ample to tank icc. Expertise is nice but you do not "need" it. And saying you "never get dodge or parried" would like to see some parse for that statement posted. Ty.
Go troll somewhere else plz.

:-)