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Frostglaive
10-02-2010, 02:33 PM
So first of all I'd like to thank the Tankspot community for their advice, and patience. I've been posting many threads here and have gotten answers or tips on what to do in my threads that have helped me in various ways. So, onto my question.

I currently just got the Ikfiru's Sack of Wonder (Heroic), and I plugged it into my Mutilate Spreadsheet provided by elitist jerks. Well I guess I got my EP points over 2.0 because it is now telling me to do 20 AP + 10 haste to red sockets, then 20 haste to all other spots that aren't red. It said all haste on chest but I plan on doing 34 haste, 10 stats, and 20 ap + 10 haste to it instead. What I want to know is is that the best way to gem this up, or is the spread sheet a little off? Thanks for the input guys, you are all wonderful and I thank you again :)

P.S. - Here is my armory link -> http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ravenholdt&cn=Hakan

Zxian
10-02-2010, 05:01 PM
The spreadsheet will simply tell you to gem the best thing possible for 'this' item. It won't tell you where is the best place in all your gear to put your nightmare tear.

For your gear, just put the nightmare tear in the chestpiece. As for gemming primarily for haste, that's a little more tricky. Go back to the sheet, and actually plug in all haste gems in yellows, and AP/haste in orange. You'll see that the sheet likely recommends for you to gem back to AP. The more of a particular stat you have, the better the others get (with the exception of ArP, but that's another matter). I just got to the point with my gear where I can gem for mostly haste, and still have the sheet recommend more haste. My rogue (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Demon+Soul&n=Kykiria)

Aside from being over expertise cap because of your boots, things are looking pretty good. The difference between 4pc T10.5 and 2pc (gloves/pants) and LDW shoulders/princes head is pretty small, and I find the playstyle of not needing to worry about the 4pc proc much easier to deal with. If you get the chance to get both pieces (3pc + offpiece doesn't make up for it), you might find it easier to work with.

Frostglaive
10-02-2010, 05:04 PM
Alright, sounds good thanks :)

EDIT: I just made it so one spot had a stark ametrine in the head piece and everything now recommends to stay the same so... I'm really confused. Because once I change it back it just makes it the same thing it recommended before..... so now what?

Frostglaive
10-02-2010, 05:56 PM
This is really getting confusing.... I did as you said and it tells me to go back to the normal one I had before... and then when I do that it goes back to saying go haste. I'm really lost here. Should I just gem my chest the same as I did as the first chest?

EDIT: Just realized that I neglected to change my cloak enchant which equaled things over... thanks XD

Jammer Six
10-02-2010, 10:26 PM
Ah, the limits of a one dimensional viewpoint.

I would suggest taking both gemming schemes into Icecrown. Keep track (as much as you can) of dps on the bosses. Recount can help you here.

Lumines
10-03-2010, 01:35 AM
Ah, the limits of a one dimensional viewpoint.

I would suggest taking both gemming schemes into Icecrown. Keep track (as much as you can) of dps on the bosses. Recount can help you here.

This is a horrible suggestion.

The DPS benefits of straight haste gemming vs. haste/AP gemming are going to be fairly marginal. It is entirely possible that you could do one boss fight with gemming strategy A (for the sake of argument, the "best" setup) and do X dps, and next week do the same boss with gemming strategy B and end up with >X dps, because of simple "random number generator" variability.

Aside from that, unless you have a rigidly fixed raid group, you've no guarantee that you'll have the same buff setup. I'd wager that the difference between your two gemming options is going to be less of a DPS swing than, say, not having Improved Icy Talons/Windfury Totem one week. And even if you do have the same setup, what if the Frost DK supplying your haste buff dies mid-attempt one week but not on the next?

"Use Recount and compare the results of two attempts with different gemming" is a terrible suggestion (for starters, World of Logs or similar would be more accurate, but that's the least of your worries if you go down that road). Two fights is far too small a sample size to draw an objective conclusion from regarding different gemming strategies, particularly when the DPS swing between both is pretty small. This is why simulating and modeling tools exist; because using them - with all their inherent limitations - is far, far more practical and far, far more accurate than attempting to compare logs of 5 boss attempts where you have no guarantee that your conditions (raid setup, buff uptime) are directly comparable and no measure of the absolute variability of your results.

I would encourage people to read this blog post (http://wowhats.wordpress.com/2010/09/09/whats-better-than-math/) on the subject.

Zxian
10-03-2010, 02:42 AM
Ah, the limits of a one dimensional viewpoint.

I would suggest taking both gemming schemes into Icecrown. Keep track (as much as you can) of dps on the bosses. Recount can help you here.

You call us narrowminded, and yet you suggest using Recount as a measure of gemming choices? I've had a larger swing in my DPS from one week to the next simply by not having a particular raid buff than I would from definite gear upgrade (T10.5 legs to T10.75 legs). Read the blog post linked by Lumines. To quote the conclusion, which really says it all:


If someone then replies that you can’t just base everything on maths and theorycraft, well, what can you base it on? What is left? Anecdotal evidence will give you as many different answers as there are anecdotes and is still a manifest example of using our brains to evaluate evidence. What’s different between that and “maths and theorycraft”?

@Jammer Six - stop posting nonsense and spreading poor advice. From what I've seen, the only thing you are telling people is to 'get more experience'.


To the OP, I would just stick with gemming AP and AP/haste for now. First off, as Lumines said, the actual single target DPS difference will be minimal. Secondly, on any fight that requires time off target or target switching gemming AP is more beneficial (think about why haste is 'good', and then why AP is 'better' for those encounters).

To help settle some of the confusion and answer 'why is the gemming recommendation changing?', let me try to explain.

Let's say you gem pure AP. This means your attacks hit for more damage. You'll ultimately reach a point where gemming haste becomes good (you get more white swings, more poisons, etc etc). Now you gem haste. Now that your weapons attack more often, you want them to hit harder to do more damage! So then you have to gem AP again in order to achieve this.

Ultimately, there's a fine balance. As a rule for 'when do I gem haste?', you can safely follow this. If you replace all your gems from Bright+Stark to Stark+Quick in the spreadsheet, and the EP value of haste remains above 2.0, then do it. Otherwise, stick with Bright+Stark.

Frostglaive
10-03-2010, 01:22 PM
I appreciate everyone's input on my question, and thank you all. I skimmed over the blog, and looked back over my spreadsheet. So what I've accumulated so far on this subject is that until my EP points are at a level of 2.0 or higher on haste when using merely stark / quick, then I stick with that. In the meantime though until my gear can support more haste, I should stay with bright / stark.

Zxian
10-03-2010, 01:43 PM
Yep. :)