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gramps
09-22-2010, 11:06 AM
was wondering if theres anything i can do to keep mobs on me. lately been going in pug dungeons and get alot of negative feedback and even some dropping ppl dropping out because the either die or we wipe. so heres the problem. most of the time they dont let me attack first or they grab other mobs at the same time. there are few that get away from me and attack other members of the group. i hit everything i have to get mob aggro but just doesnt seem good enough. is there anything i can do.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Zangarmarsh&cn=Grmps

Skaterjoec55
09-22-2010, 11:10 AM
Umm I am at school and can't pull up your armory so what class are you? (Make sure you are specific in your questions)

Theotherone
09-22-2010, 11:15 AM
Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.

Møønbøøt
09-22-2010, 12:43 PM
Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.

^ This... Can't say anything more then that. ^

Jammer Six
09-22-2010, 02:29 PM
When dps make pulls, I sit down and watch. Sometimes they notice, sometimes not so much.

icantfindone
09-22-2010, 02:44 PM
Your gemming and spec are bad. You are well over the defense minimum, so the + defense gems are useless for you, and 40 AP gems are bad. If you want to gem for threat, focus on expertise > hit > strength.

As far as the spec goes, get the 15/3/53. Improved disarm, cruelty, focused rage are all unnecessary.

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000053351225000212521030113321

Your glyphs are fine for 5 mans.

Loganisis
09-22-2010, 02:45 PM
Tank and healers set the pace. Unless they're willing to tank it, it's their own fault. Mark targets, tell them to wait a sec. If they don't, or go running off (I hate the healers that do this... go jogging off to pull the next pack - for whatever reason, healers seem to be the worst offenders, maybe because they're board) let 'em die.

One thing that might help is charge, so you have a little time (hopefully) before they go hog wild. Remember vig. But if you have 25m geared players that know what they're doing, they choose if they pull off you or not.

gd_void
09-22-2010, 03:14 PM
Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.

/agree, First time a dps pulls something i give them a warning, the second time i watch them die. If the healer pulls he dies as well. but being a dk doing this is more survivable.

gramps
09-22-2010, 04:33 PM
k, thanks. i know my gems are off. have researched so many places that really push stam but was always taught to get exp hit and strength like you said.

gramps
09-22-2010, 04:36 PM
i think the biggest problem that i have most is making skull and x and then grp pulling a different one off me thats not marked. seems like its always one person in the grp. just get tired of ppl dropping. but i guess if they cant hit the ones that are marked and i have a ton of aggro on and want to go renegade then ill just let them suffer the consequences. thanks all

xenogriff
09-22-2010, 06:30 PM
my policy is the same as the ones above, if they pull it on purpose, i taunt it off and warn them. they pull it a 2nd time - that indicates they want to tank, so i let them and watch as healer either scrambles to save them or lets them die.
i've had plenty of runs where i've just sat down with the healer watching the dps running around like headless chickens when they realize that theres no heals on them and no safety net for them...kinda fun to watch actually....

if the healer does it....well, i'm a decently geared prot pally - i'll usually live

other than that, if you have dps that massively outgear you, they might pull off you if they're not careful with their threat....that's their problem if they want to look at recount rather than omen

that being said, i wouldnt blame everything on gear - you do have to do the research regarding your spec, rotations (if there's one and depending on the situation) as well as enchants/gems - that way you know that your doing your best to maintain the best tps you can do

uglybbtoo
09-22-2010, 07:11 PM
I am also firmly in the you pull it you tank it camp .. I don't mind singles but when they pull mobs they generally hit only one and the others immediately zoom in on the healer and he dies which is what I object too.

Ask them not to do it and should they persist stop tanking and ask them to kick you so you don't get the dungeon desserter debuff or even teleport out and wait for them to kick you. Remember you will insta queue again anyhow they can sit around and enjoy the wait for a new tank.

You definitely need to fix up talents and remember challenging shout may save the day in the sort of situation you are describing but it does come on a 3min CD.

This problem sort of goes away as your gear improves because you are usually ready to move onto next mob long before the dps has finished with them.

gramps
09-22-2010, 08:06 PM
thanks again all for your help. thats why i keep looking to tankspot. you guys are great

Mäcintosh
09-22-2010, 10:39 PM
Protect the healer and let the idiot dps die - they pull it, they tank it.

I /agree, second this, third, fourth, fifth this even.


Two instances, one a shammie healer who started pulling in H PoS because "he didn't want to be there all day". Not like we were going so slow. He was speed pulling. I said you pull it, you tank it. He made the remark "it wouldn't be the first time". We get to Ick and we wipe because moronboy himself didn't get out of poison nova. Promptly left group, I don't like to leave and make people suffer, normally, but I felt this needed to be done to put more egg on his face.

2nd was just in HToc. This is a funny, boomkin pulls third group before I am ready. I pick up one and let the other two beat up on him/her for a bit, him/her got to about 40% health, then I went over and easily ripped both off of him/her.

I'm liking this mantra more and more and these guys are going to get a stone cold awakening in cata heroics...and that's the bottom line..

Posted using Tapatalk for iPhone

Theotherone
09-23-2010, 06:42 AM
If H HoR is any type of preview, Cata is going to be sooooo miserable in the begining as everyone who learned the game on the "gather them up, AoE them down" paradigm will have to learn the art of cc; God, it's going to be a wipe fest.

Crutchs
09-23-2010, 07:54 AM
I have to say I totally disagree with all of these replies. As a caveat, you need 1-2 seconds to gather up mobs before aoe gets unleashed, but baring that, I don't agree with loose mobs being anyone elses' fault but the tanks'. First, we're talking about 5 man instances, why are we marking targets in the first place? The Wrath model for 5 mans is aoe, aoe, and more aoe. There are very few fights that require focused fire. Further, this is a GREAT time to practice your aoe threat. You mentioned you have 2 targets with high threat:

"I guess if they cant hit the ones that are marked and i have a ton of aggro on and want to go renegade then ill just let them suffer the consequences."

You don't need a "ton" of aggro on anything. You need enough aggro on lots of mobs, not a ton of aggro on 1 or 2. Focus on staying ahead of aggro on all mobs, not lapping the field on one while allowing 3 or 4 to run wild.

Next, I have to say that I hate the "if dps pulls i sit down and watch...." or "I'll let them suffer the consequences" argument. All this does is punish your healer, not the dps. The healer will be able to keep the dps up, they just have to burn a bunch of mana to do it and no one learns a lesson except that they can get hit in the face and survive just fine.

Finally, I want to stress one of my original points, and that is that 5 mans are a great place to practice building threat on multiple mobs. Especially when the dps outgears you. It is challenging. It makes it fun, and it makes you a better tank.

Unger
09-23-2010, 09:15 AM
Lots of different replies but I'll weigh in with mine.

Obviously, you shouldnt have to try to fix every crazy dps's screw up. However, most 5 mans can be categorized as this; Idle hands are the devil's workshop. Tell the healer that your gear is on the lower side but that is no reason to go slow. If you keep the pace up, you can stay "ahead" of the dps most of the time. Let the healer know you want to push pace a little bit. Dont be afraid to make mistakes. Sometimes, when you have a strong threat lead on something, check the healers mana bar. If its ok, let the dps finish off that add and go to the next pack. While they are killing the prev mob, youre building threat on a new one.

I suspect that the reason the dps is chippy is because you are going slower. If you want practice tanking more slowly, I recommend running non heroics. First your gear will be superior there and your party mates will likely be below level 80. Once you are comfortable pushing pace, take on the easier heroics. If you find a strong healer, try to talk him (or her) into staying with you for some chain 5 mans.

Most of these issues can be fulled back to expectations. If progression for you is a 5 man heroic but you are using the random que, that is a mistake. Most of the people there are farming and want a badge, some gold and to get the hell out of there. Its a pug. If its progression for you, it would be a mistake to pug it. Get yourself a team of people and go. The LFG is a great tool.... but its not designed to be a place where you actually go to get gear upgrades. And it never will be. The problem you have is expectations of the party.

Pushing the pace will make a good portion of these issues go away. You can let people die if you want, but if I had to vote to keep a tank that is marking adds in a 5 man and has 20k health or the 7k dps ele shaman that keeps dying because he is impatient, Im likely staying with the Shaman. I think there is a place for people to learn to tank..... but I personally, dont want to be taking extra time to get someone caught up on tanking 5 mans. I suspect that most of the LFG is the same.

Tengenstein
09-23-2010, 10:25 AM
I have to say I totally disagree with all of these replies. As a caveat, you need 1-2 seconds to gather up mobs before aoe gets unleashed, but baring that, I don't agree with loose mobs being anyone elses' fault but the tanks'. First, we're talking about 5 man instances, why are we marking targets in the first place? The Wrath model for 5 mans is aoe, aoe, and more aoe. There are very few fights that require focused fire. Further, this is a GREAT time to practice your aoe threat. You mentioned you have 2 targets with high threat:

"I guess if they cant hit the ones that are marked and i have a ton of aggro on and want to go renegade then ill just let them suffer the consequences."

You don't need a "ton" of aggro on anything. You need enough aggro on lots of mobs, not a ton of aggro on 1 or 2. Focus on staying ahead of aggro on all mobs, not lapping the field on one while allowing 3 or 4 to run wild.

Next, I have to say that I hate the "if dps pulls i sit down and watch...." or "I'll let them suffer the consequences" argument. All this does is punish your healer, not the dps. The healer will be able to keep the dps up, they just have to burn a bunch of mana to do it and no one learns a lesson except that they can get hit in the face and survive just fine.

Finally, I want to stress one of my original points, and that is that 5 mans are a great place to practice building threat on multiple mobs. Especially when the dps outgears you. It is challenging. It makes it fun, and it makes you a better tank.


1-2 seconds?

thats 1.3 GCDs.

so for a warrior that a TC and Cleave
for a bear thats a swipe and a Maul(?)
for a pally thats a Hammer
fr a DK that one BB or HB or IT and maybe a rune strike.

and even less if we say have to silence a caster or two to drag them into the pack.


the "wrath model" is only that way becuase the majority rediculously out gear the instance, i remember back when wrath hit running HCs with the entire group in Blues with maybe a few crafted epics and an smattering of greens,when 22k was not a disrespectable amount of health for a tank, the model then was certainly not AoE like mad.

now Geared tanks can pull half a dungeon Naked and survive, but the thing is that kinda depends on the tank being geared, and you kinda have to run HCs to get gear. its a bit of a harsh point of view to assume an appropiately geared tank should be treated exactly the same as one in 264/277s,. hell i wouldn't expect a healer in ilvl200s to keep me alive through LK, nor would i expect DPS to be able to beat the enrage on festergut 25HC if they where on 5 man HC gear. It just doesn't make sense to expect a tank in gear a few tiers below yours to hold aggro against you when you're going balls to the wall. sure it can be done, but that requires teamwork, and that requires DPS to work with the tank, and vice versa.

Jammer Six
09-23-2010, 10:25 AM
Okay, the next time I sit down to watch, don't change anything. Don't say anything. Don't correct anyone, and that way, we can repeat the mistake.

Crutchs
09-23-2010, 11:42 AM
Yeah dont say anything, don't correct anyone, just fix their mistake by picking up all the crap they pulled and demonstrating why you are the man and they suck.

uglie
09-23-2010, 11:43 AM
Heroics are is the place to gear up unless you expect some to run thru all the previous raids to gear up, and in that case you should take the time out of your busy busy day to run them thru those raids as many times as it takes to gear them.. Oh but wait, since you dont have an extra 5 minutes to waste in a heroic you dont have time to runs those same people thru the older raids.
It's called a group effort people. The tank is in charge, let him pull unless you can solo the place without stopping to heal yourself. If you severely out gear the tank, so be it. That gives you no right to pull for him unless you think pulling raid bosses before the tanks is a good thing.
Yes the tank should be trying to keep aggro on the whole pack of mobs instead of just one or 2, and the tank has to learn how to do that properly. It would be preferable for that tank to learn to do so with a guild group if it's their first tank.
In short, don't pull before the tank EVER!. It is not your job. If you are so constrained on time that you have to finish a 20 minute instance in 15 minutes then maybe you should wait til you have a lil bit more time.

Unger
09-23-2010, 01:10 PM
No, their not. And anyone who says that it is should take it back.

The LFG is used by people who want to farm badges. NOOOOOBODY wants to go to a 5 man and have a tank that actually needs gear from there.

If you still need gear from a 5 man heroic, there is nothing wrong with that. But you have two choices;

1) Do the easy thing and get yourself a group and go together. Spam in trade like the good ole days for a team so that everyone knows what they are getting

or

2) Have the EXACT same problem that the OP is having now.

You might not LIKE that this is the way it is.... but... it is.

Vegemite
09-23-2010, 01:16 PM
I really don't agree with the attitude in which "you pull it, you tank it". I see it as a chance to improve myself, that practice from running 5 man with crazy dps helps me improve myself and do what I do better. Do I like these people? No. But I don't stop doing my job because I don't like some dps that pulls from me. Like someone said before it's a chance for you to show how awesome you are.

icantfindone
09-23-2010, 01:39 PM
Back to the OP. . .

I see you followed my advice on the spec, and lost the AP gems, but the 20 crit gems baffle me. As a warrior, the only gems you use are +strength for DPS, +stam for tanking. Proper rotation and use of your abilities generates more threat than any amount of gemming you can do.

A solid 5 man rotation for AoE - Charge -> Thunderclap. . . take a few steps back and wait for the pack to collapse in front of you -> Shockwave -> Revenge + Cleave -> Shield Slam + Cleave -> Thunderclap. After this opener, keep revenge, thunderclap, Shield slam and shockwave on cooldown. Keep Cleave queued and weave in devastates if you dont have any shinier button to press. I use Tuskarr's Vitality on boots, and charge at every pack to give myself valuable extra time to gain threat ahead of the DPS (Hint -> change your boot enchant)

Most mobs will be dead by the 1st rotation, and if not, any left should be stuck to you like glue.

Single Target (bosses) - Charge -> Shield Slam -> Revenge -> Devastate is your opener. This will give you a solid lead on DPS. Keep heroic strike queued, and SS, revenge and shockwave on CD. Weave in devastate on free GCDs.

I am with the rest of the camp that at many times it can be the fault of the DPS ("where did those extra packs come from? I only hit Starfail!!"), but only if the tank is doing his job properly.

OP- now try out these AoE and single target rotations with your proper new spec, and let us know how things work for you.

gd_void
09-23-2010, 02:03 PM
In short, don't pull before the tank EVER!. It is not your job. If you are so constrained on time that you have to finish a 20 minute instance in 15 minutes then maybe you should wait til you have a lil bit more time.

I'm so far into 'you tank it you pull it' that i will let misdirecting hunters pull agro and die after they've misdirected to me. I miss the day when i could just click off misdirect and watch them die, but i suppose that's why they got rid of that. I'm not for the sit down shut up and watch them die, a warning is in order imo, but if the warning is ignored then they can die. And as for the opposite Arguement of 'it's challenging and makes me a better tank' I say because i can pull it back doesn't mean i should pull it back, If they want to pull then they should have rolled a tank. I Absolutely hate People who cant wait that extra five sec for me to pull. I can see the argument for pulling faster but at the heart of the matter is no matter how fast you pull 2/5 groups will have someone who thinks the group could go faster, and will attempt to make it so.

uglie
09-23-2010, 03:21 PM
No, their not. And anyone who says that it is should take it back.

The LFG is used by people who want to farm badges. NOOOOOBODY wants to go to a 5 man and have a tank that actually needs gear from there.

If you still need gear from a 5 man heroic, there is nothing wrong with that. But you have two choices;

1) Do the easy thing and get yourself a group and go together. Spam in trade like the good ole days for a team so that everyone knows what they are getting

or

2) Have the EXACT same problem that the OP is having now.

You might not LIKE that this is the way it is.... but... it is.

Your statement contradicts itself. Everyone is there to farm for badges but no one wants to be there with someone that needs badges. So I'm assuming that in all your raids (especially the new raid of the xpac) that everyone already out gears it and you won't take anyone that still needs gear/ badges from there?
I personally have leveled and geared 2, soon to be 3 tanks, and a healer through the LFG tool. Yes at first a couple of drops i would still need, but for the most part it's all about farming for badges. Key phrase there being " farming for badges"

It is everyone's job to do there job properly. Meaning that unless you are the tank, you are to not pull. Because that extra set of mobs that you just pulled, just might kill you then go kill the tank or the healer and now your group wiped and recovering from that wipe will take longer than letting that one pack sit there.
Patience is a virtue even in a game.

Zalvered
09-23-2010, 06:00 PM
To this point I have found players that say "my main is a tank" are the worst to deal with. You can never pull fast enough, or big enough or hold aggro enough for them. I have geared up a fair amount over the past few weeks, but I always check gear score of all the dps and the healer at the start of a run. If I have a 2.5-3k GS healer, I am going to pull smaller at first to judge how well he is keeping up, or if 2 of the 3 dps are new to heroics I will do the same. I am constantly amazed by the people that get mad when things "take forever" and I check my dbm and it was 8 seconds longer then my record time. I am to the point now that I think 50% of the people playing only care about themselves, and they have a standard that only elite players can live up to. My own guild even says it. "I ran with a tank that pulled this whole room and didn't lose aggro on a single mob." Later I find out he had a 6100 GS, how can I compete with my 4400 GS? How can I be expected to?

To the OP, personally I always try to hold aggro, if for no other reason then two wrongs don't make a right. Letting a dps die doesn't teach him a lesson, he is probably to stupid to learn. I am there to get my Triumph emblems and move on, maybe meet some good people, but probably not. I totally understand your frusration. You are fixing your spec and gems, do your best and if that isn't good enough, well hell, you've done all you can. They can always kick you if they are that unhappy. One of my favorite things is a group that wants to skip as many bosses as possible. I understand that some might not need Triumph emblems, but damn, are they so self absorbed that they can't take 5 mins to help everyone in the group that does need them? Atleast as the tank I can just not go on till them come back, but the dps that have to wait in Q for 15-20 mins just to watch a tank skip half the bosses can't be happy. Maybe this is more of a social problem then a wow problem, we see the same thing happen in real life all the time. So many people can only say "me". Enough of my ranting, good luck!

Martie
09-23-2010, 08:16 PM
Zalvered, I have quite the opposite experience. See, my main is a tank. When I see someone struggle with something, do something completely wrong or forget something, I try to help them out. Usually, they reply as if I insulted them somehow, and disregard my advice (or the civil tone in which it was offered.)

Things like knowing how to move a ranged mob to you (stand outside his melee range but inside his dead zone and he comes into melee), trying to keep the speed up (not telling people to rush and pull everything, but whispering them that tanking gets a lot easier if you keep combat going without too much hiatus) or doing a proper line of sight pull (which helps a lot against some packs even in UK.) These are all things that new tanks probably don't know, and they should welcome the advice of someone highly experienced in it - not fly into a fit of rage over it.

Mäcintosh
09-23-2010, 08:45 PM
If H HoR is any type of preview, Cata is going to be sooooo miserable in the begining as everyone who learned the game on the "gather them up, AoE them down" paradigm will have to learn the art of cc; God, it's going to be a wipe fest.

Yes.. It will be a nightmare.

coe
09-24-2010, 12:57 AM
@gramps, try looking for people on /2, say that you're fresh 80 tank and don't have great gear yet. People that will join you will be more patient and shouldn't pull mobs off you. You should find people that way without problem, because as tank you have instant queue, and they have to wait 3-15 mins depending on role.

Jammer Six
09-24-2010, 01:22 AM
Later I find out he had a 6100 GS, how can I compete with my 4400 GS? How can I be expected to?
Because gear score is probably the smallest factor.

I agree with part of what you said, but if you're convinced you "can't compete", then I'm sure you know best.

Acidbaron
09-24-2010, 01:37 AM
Warrior tanks that are gearing up are the best class to put against higher geared dps, due to your aoe stun most of the mobs should be dead before the stun wears off.

If a dps complains that he or she pulled agro and died, i just laugh at them and say "then don't pull agro". I can't even see how a person with some basic skills can even die to those mobs however, even a fury tank can be kept alive in heroics.

As for HoR, people fail to single target and feel the need to "must aoe everything once packed up!" those people i personally intentionally, let die several times in a row till they get the message, don't waste a single taunt on them.

Basically what Theo said, protect your healer let scrub dps die.

I pull pretty fast even when gearing up just watching the mana bar, if i'm raged or rune starved and they pull, i will let them tank it.

Might all sound harsh but i'm not going to compensate for those people their incompetence to play correctly, either they can take some punches and pull a mob and soak it fine and if they can't, don't pull agro.

Thalani
09-24-2010, 11:14 PM
This has been bothering me for a while now. I have several tanks and healers of various comfort levels, and a few DPS toons (which I'm typically awful with, but eh).
What I want to know is why tanks (and to some degree healers) are the only ones expected to focus and "do their job" in a heroic? I've run into quite a few trigger happy DPS in PuGs who lol a lot, pull, and generally pay no attention and goof around. If I ask them to let me pull (if I'm the tank) or try to stop face tanking (if I'm the healer), they typically respond with comments that they're just trying to have some fun. I should just "deal with it" and get my badges and go.
Who decided that DPS are the only ones that get to "have fun" in a heroic?? I already have a job, and it's M-F from 7 AM to 4 PM. WoW is not my job. It's my hobby.
So...the last time somebody told me they were trying to have fun, I started telling them that that's fine -- MY idea of fun is to watch people who pull like that die. They stopped after that.

I agree that people goofing around and doing the unexpected teaches you to be a better tank...
I also believe that it's an unnecessary headache and people could really try to cooperate a little better, or go play a non-MMO.

Sorry for the rant. Actually...come to think of it, not entirely sorry for the rant or I wouldn't have posted it. :/ I kind of had to get that off my chest amongst others who hopefully know what I mean there.

-T.

Tengenstein
09-25-2010, 04:51 AM
I feel exactly the same, Thalani. Apart from the fun job bit.

gramps
09-26-2010, 07:26 PM
thanks again for all the suggestions. i changed some things up and started to pick up the pace. seems to be working better.

Zalvered
09-27-2010, 04:51 PM
Things like knowing how to move a ranged mob to you (stand outside his melee range but inside his dead zone and he comes into melee), trying to keep the speed up (not telling people to rush and pull everything, but whispering them that tanking gets a lot easier if you keep combat going without too much hiatus) or doing a proper line of sight pull (which helps a lot against some packs even in UK.) These are all things that new tanks probably don't know, and they should welcome the advice of someone highly experienced in it - not fly into a fit of rage over it.

I for one thank people like you in game. I am always open to suggestions/help. Heck, I learned something from your post. I didn't know about the "dead zone" you mentioned. Ranged mobs are a pain for me if their are more then one. Heroic Throw takes care of one, but then I am left trying to shield bash the other. That is all GCD's that are not gaining aggro on the group right in front of me that dps is aoeing. To be clear. You are saying that their is a distance I can stand away from a caster that will make him move toward me instead of cast even if he is not silenced? I am getting much better with speed now that I don't feel like I will die due to having so little stamina. Leaving mobs behind when they are almost dead and running to the next group is just plain fun.

icantfindone
09-27-2010, 08:25 PM
You are saying that their is a distance I can stand away from a caster that will make him move toward me instead of cast even if he is not silenced?

Yep. You can stand at your max melee range, and just back pedal with them, and they will keep taking steps to stay in melee range. You can also stand on top of them, and they will take a few steps back, so you can make them back pedal as well