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View Full Version : Tanking Tankadin seeming to loose TPS..



velastra
09-19-2010, 02:40 PM
Hey guys i cleared up to the 3rd wing in ICC 10m.. though someitmes i seem to loose TPS during some fights with big DPS. i currently use the 969 rotation but still seem to lack some sort of punch that i need.. im willing to completely redo my spec if you guys see it messed up i keep holy sheild up 100% of the time in fights. not really sure what the deal is.. just let me know please.. thanks in advance.

Velastra 80 Protect Paladin - Madoran

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastra

klausi
09-19-2010, 03:00 PM
Please get some enchantments, it's tearing up my heart. Additional 142 Stamina (your meta isn't active yet, put a purple gem into your belt) and 275 hitpoints helps a ton with survival.

You can find detailed informations about threat scaling for prot paladins and several proper speccs at Maintankadin.com (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=1&t=26864&rb_v=viewtopic).

velastra
09-19-2010, 03:13 PM
A purple gem or a red gem.. its a red slot lol

Trimack
09-19-2010, 03:15 PM
purple gems count as blue and red gems..... i would suggest learning the basic mechanics of the game before tanking.

velastra
09-19-2010, 04:03 PM
thanks for being a dick.. thats a great way to help someone. go fuck yourself

Trimack
09-19-2010, 04:35 PM
I wasnt being a dick i was just merely suggesting that before you start asking why your having threat problems, you atleast pick up the world of warcraft basic users guide. or visit the forums or even! read what the gems say... cause it says right on a purple gem fits a red or blue gem socket.

I am not willing to help someone if at first there not ready to help them selfs.

velastra
09-19-2010, 04:52 PM
There are ways to help someone with out being an ass.. maybe you should pick up a Socializing for Dummies guide?

Raysere
09-19-2010, 04:56 PM
This is a little confusing... you know that you can put any color gem in any slot bar meta judging by the armory linked, yet you seem to indicate here that you think red gems need to match red sockets... Am I looking at the wrong armory?

At any rate, you need a gem to activate your meta bonus. A Red, Purple or Orange will do the trick. The best choice is a Purple because they are a combination of Stamina and another stat. I'd suggest using either a Guardian's Dreadstone (Stamina/Expertise) or Regal Dreadstone (Stamina/)Dodge rating.

There are a few ways you could improve your spec and gear, but instead of just telling you 'the way things should be done according to Ray' I'll link you to a couple of good threads on EJ that should give you the knowlage you need to make your own choices. I suggest you also browse around on Tankspot, there's a lot of knowledge scattered around these forums, not just Paladin specifics but general tanking advice. There are a lot of knowledgeable and experienced people here.

Paladin FAQ - Protection: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t91132-paladin_faq_all_our_roles_how_play_them/#post1549423
Protection Paladin Field Manual: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t91132-paladin_faq_all_our_roles_how_play_them/#post1549423

xenogriff
09-19-2010, 08:17 PM
well, the first thing i would say immediately on your profile loading is your spec

a 0/66/5 spec says that you aren't specced properly for the best tps you can generate

there are several cookie cutter specs out there with information about which talents in the ret tree help your threat a lot

i would say take points out of divinity, the healing increase is not justifiable for 5 points.
also, stoicism - that's mainly a pvp spec talent
reckoning is debatable - the tps increase on it isnt that high
and if your tanking ICC, one point in spiritual attunement is more than enough - u get mana back from a lot of other options in a raid

consider putting 1 point into imp judgements - this helps with your 969 rotation (look this up as well and note that once cata hits this probably won't be applicable)
talent points that help ur tps will be talents like conviction, heart of the crusader and crusade

in terms of enchants, as the others have stated - please enchant, i don't know when you got the pieces but you should pretty much have gotten them enchanted immediately after raid - helm, shoulders, gloves, boots and chest pieces all unenchanted all seem to indicate u dont really care too much about tanking to be willing to spend the time on making sure your at the top of your game (which is kinda contradictory since you came here for help)

also a socket in the belt would help

finally, your JC skills - level that up when you can to get access to the JC only gems

velastra
09-19-2010, 08:39 PM
Xeno thanks for your help, i am slowly getting my JC up. I was told about the 51 stam gems and thats what im shooting for. I will look for some of these 'cookie cutter' specs that you mentioned. And alot of my gear has recently been changed out to what it is now. So you are right they are new and i havent gotten them enchanted just yet. But i will get them soon.. I appreciate you looking into it for me. Thank you for your help! :)

Good day all!

-Vel

Akeber
09-20-2010, 05:55 AM
To the OP, watch your language. This isn't the wow forums and I'm sure a moderator will edit your post and give you a warning before the day is out. Trimack could/should have been more tactful in his response, but the message is accurate, you need to do a ton more research about gearing/tanking if you're going to tank raid content.

Given your gemming/chanting "mistakes" (no belt buckle?), and lack of knowledge about "proper" paladin tanking specs, I'm going to assume you're probably not executing the 969 rotation properly. Rather than repeating myself, see this post:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?70635-Tankadin-Threat-problems...&p=456508#post456508

Lumines
09-20-2010, 06:40 AM
i currently use the 969 rotation

No you don't. That requires at least 1 point in Improved Judgements, which your current armory spec does not have.

I recommend reading the guides here and the stickies in the Basic Training section of maintankadin.

velastra
09-22-2010, 11:20 PM
I recently got with the main tankadin in my guild.. here is an update on the spec that he gave.. see what you guys think


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastra (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastrahttp://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastra)

Lumines
09-23-2010, 01:22 AM
I recently got with the main tankadin in my guild.. here is an update on the spec that he gave.. see what you guys think


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastra

I think that build's really bad and you should stop asking whoever gave you it for advice.

You're missing Vindication and Judgements of the Just, which are two essential mitigation talents, but picking up 3/5 Divinity, which is an extremely weak survival talent (JotJ is also a minor threat increase, as its application can proc seals). On top of that, you don't have Divine Guardian, which (when used with a /cancelaura macro) is a personal 20% damage reduction cooldown. Those trade-offs do not make sense.

Similarly, 5/5 Conviction and 2/5 Seals of the Pure but missing 1 point in Touched by the Light; that 1 point that isn't in TbtL is worth roughly the same as all 5 in Conviction, or both of those points in SotP. Again, trade-offs which don't make sense. And you don't have the Glyph of Seal of Vengeance, which is comfortably our best single target threat glyph, particularly with you being at 18 expertise.

That spec is bad.

Information on the TPS-per-point breakdown of our talents is here (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=521965&rb_v=viewtopic#p521965). The Talent guide is here (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=1&t=26864&rb_v=viewtopic). While you're there, read up on the 969, because if you thought you were doing it while your spec made it impossible, that suggests you don't really understand what it is.

sifuedition
09-23-2010, 10:20 AM
I recently got with the main tankadin in my guild.. here is an update on the spec that he gave.. see what you guys think


http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastra (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastrahttp://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Velastra)

Still not right but it is better. Please actually read the posts and threads that have been linked to you. Many people get specs/gear/gems/enchants wrong and still do ok. There is a 30% buff after all.

Being perfectly min-maxed is not an absolute necessity but some will be offended that they provided you advice and links to know WHY it's correct and you decided to go your own way.

velastra
09-24-2010, 09:02 AM
I apologize if i offended anyone.. I have reviewed the links that have been provided.. but before i changed my spec up i asked the tank in my guild he seemed to know what he was talking about. Apparently i was wrong and so was he. I will review the links that were provided and look further into thanks for all your help i will update you all again when i get it flipped over.

-Vel

velastra
09-24-2010, 09:05 AM
A quick question im reviewing the link i re-posted below.. the divine gaurdian seems to be a waste of points.. am i wrong?

http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufdxfMobc

velastra
09-24-2010, 09:06 AM
Errr.. Divine Sacrifice.

Akeber
09-24-2010, 10:25 AM
You need one point in divine sac to get to divine guardian, which is a very useful raidwide cooldown. Some cases where it's useful:
-Marrowgar's bone storm
-BQL when she goes in the air
-Sindy when one of your healers gets blocked and the other has unchained
-putricide when the stacks are getting high on the tanks and so is raid damage
-festergut's gaseous bloat

Lots of times that reducing the raid's damage taken by 20% is beneficial. Plus, it also makes your sacred shield last 30 seconds longer. You do keep sacred shield up on yourself at all times don't you?

sifuedition
09-24-2010, 11:31 AM
To add to the previous post, you will want to macro divine sacrifice when you have divine guardian.

/cast divine sacrifice
/cancelaura divine sacrifice

You will have to press this twice. Instead of redirecting 30% damage to you, this will gant everyone in your party (not raid) 20% damage reduction for a short time which can be Huge if timed right.

Nereel
09-24-2010, 02:54 PM
I am not a macro expert but I think to fully use divine sacrifice you need the following as well. The general idea is to bubble, sacrifice, then pop your bubble. I believe the damage reduction is limited to a percent of your health as well now.

#showtooltip Divine Sacrifice
/castsequence Divine Shield, Divine Sacrifice

#showtooltip Divine Shield
/cancelaura Divine Shield
/cast Divine Shield

Iltemann
09-25-2010, 05:17 AM
I wasnt being a dick i was just merely suggesting that before you start asking why your having threat problems, you atleast pick up the world of warcraft basic users guide. or visit the forums or even! read what the gems say... cause it says right on a purple gem fits a red or blue gem socket.

I am not willing to help someone if at first there not ready to help them selfs.

Tbh... Velastra has a big point. He asked advice. Not someone to tell him what he had missed out on! so yeah.. maybe think twice before you start picking on pplz and telling them how much they dont know!

Iltemann
09-25-2010, 05:27 AM
In danger to be picked apart of al those "I know how its done pplz" in this game. Here is my spec, and it actually works!

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Aszune&cn=Holyprot&group=1

I know im not the best geared carracter, and sure some pplz want to pick on me and tell me how much i fail here. But still...
The nice thing with this build is that you get Seal of Command. And that is verry helpfull when you are AoE tanking. I havent seen more than half of ICC with my paladin, but So far it works verry well!

Lumines
09-26-2010, 07:35 AM
In danger to be picked apart of al those "I know how its done pplz" in this game. Here is my spec, and it actually works!

Something working isn't the same as being optimal, which is what theorycrafting sites such as this one strive towards. For example, as per the TPS per point work linked to earlier in this thread, each point in Crusade is almost four times the TPS per point of Conviction. They're both plain threat talents with no other benefit, so it's easy to declare which choice is better in that instance. And that's where cookie cutter specs come from - making like for like comparisons, evaluating opportunity costs (e.g. Seals of the Pure is a reasonable threat talent, but so is Crusade, and a Ret sub-spec lets you pick up other useful talents such as Vindication and Pursuit of Justice) and putting together the optimum spec based on that evaluation.

Seal of Command is basically expected these days; the cookie-cutter 53/18 spec would include it at the cost of one final point in Conviction, i.e. 5/5 Deflection, 2/2 Imp Judgements, 3/3 Heart of the Crusader, 2/2 Vindication, 1/1 Seal of Command, 2/2 Pursuit of Justice and 3/3 Crusade).

Similarly, the Glyph of Seal of Vengeance is demonstrably more TPS than the Glyph of Judgement, which is why that's a poor trade-off in your case. Foregoing a free 3% damage reduction with basically 100% uptime by omitting the Glyph of Divine Plea is very hard to justify, and Glyph of Seal of Righteousness is very difficult to justify because Seal of Vengeance is demonstrably more TPS than Seal of Righteousness for single targets and Seal of Command would be your seal of choice for multi-mob tanking.

xenogriff
09-26-2010, 11:26 PM
a few comments on your current spec

5/5 seals of the pure only affects your judgements and the ticks of your seal of vengeance - it is only a minor tps increase due to judgements being used every 18 seconds if you are using the 969 rotation right compared to other talents which affect ALL your abilities

2/2 spiritual attunement is not needed, 1 point is more than enough given the amount of incoming damage taken in raid and the healing taken
in the same sense, i would replace the glyph of SA for seal of vengeance until you are expertise capped from gear then if you like you can switch to glyph of salvation - of course switching to the glyph of salvation means you being able to do a high amount of threat and maintaining a TPS lead over your dps

1/2 sacred duty - ur giving up 2% stamina and a 30 sec reduction in your defensive cds - this doesn't really make a lot of sense survivalibility wise

2/2 hammer of justice - this is just a waste unless u pvp - there are way more classes out there that can handle interrupts better

5/5 reckoning - i really don't agree with this talent, the tps increase on it is minor since it depends on a proc that's calculated per individual hit

2/2 improved judgements - u really only need 1 point here to bring the judgement cd down to 9 secs so that it fits the 969 rotation

max out heart of the crusader - more crits = more tps

put one point into benediction as a filler

conviction is fairly important - again, more crits = more tps

vindication is a survival talent - semi optional if there are others in raid that can provide the same debuff

personally, seal of command i can do without, only useful for trash

3/3 crusade - ur giving up 3% extra dmg against beasts and 6% dmg increase on everything else

u asked about how to generate higher threat but ur giving up a lot of high threat talents for other talents that only increase your tps by a lesser degree - i would suggest looking through all the suggestions here as well as re-reading the guides again

Lumines
09-27-2010, 06:57 AM
5/5 seals of the pure only affects your judgements and the ticks of your seal of vengeance - it is only a minor tps increase due to judgements being used every 18 seconds if you are using the 969 rotation right compared to other talents which affect ALL your abilities

Every 9 seconds, not every 18 seconds.


5/5 reckoning - i really don't agree with this talent, the tps increase on it is minor since it depends on a proc that's calculated per individual hit

conviction is fairly important - again, more crits = more tpsReckoning is almost twice the TPS-per-point as Conviction (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=521965&rb_v=viewtopic#p521965), and only gets better as your threat stats improve (i.e. as you near hit and expertise caps). Conviction is our weakest TPS per point choice in terms of threat-oriented talents. It isn't important, it's at best an inefficient use of talent points.

I still wouldn't spec into Reckoning because I believe those 3 points are much better spent in DS/DG, for both raid utility and a personal damage reduction cooldown, but let's not hand out advice based on incorrect information.

xenogriff
09-27-2010, 08:12 PM
i'll give on the reckoning > conviction argument - conviction was higher on priority to me since i never liked reckoning

but if ur using the 969 rotation, ur using judgements every 18 secs not every 9 unless u tend to use judgements only and dont bother with keeping holy shield up

Lumines
09-28-2010, 03:34 AM
but if ur using the 969 rotation, ur using judgements every 18 secs not every 9 unless u tend to use judgements only and dont bother with keeping holy shield up

I have no idea what rotation you're doing, but an illustrative section of 969 would be:

0s - Judgement
1.5s - ShoR
3.0s - Holy Shield
4.5s - HotR
6.0s - Consecration
7.5s - ShoR
9.0s - Judgement

Padinbann
09-28-2010, 04:25 AM
this is the best TPS build i have ever used since i started tanking id recommend trying it out if you really wanna improve
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sZV0tAbuMusIufdxfMzbc:pGkmzc
I use it on my pally
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Ner%27zhul&cn=Padinbann
i would replace one of your gems for a 10 agi/15 stam gem to get the 32 stamina and 2% armor from your head piece