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Octopusiano
09-07-2010, 04:08 PM
Hi and thanks in advance ..


2nd trinket sometimes switched to Deathbringer's will

The problem is my dps on an 83 boss dummy is 5k dps self buffed and its about the same with full raids buffs, elixirs which doesnt make sense to me at all i know i am below crit cap for whites exp capped hit rating capped
my rotation at beg is racial ,Spirit,SS,FS,LL,LB on 5 MW,LB, ES then norm enh priority

Any advice ?

Lumines
09-08-2010, 03:22 AM
What are you using to optimise your gemming? Rawr? EnhSim? I know enhance gemming can appear to be all over the place because EP for individual stats fluctuates all over the place depending on existing gear, but 511 hit just strikes me as way too much. Obviously I defer to any simulator which disagrees, but you should be gearing for 368 hit if a Boomkin/Shadow Priest is present, or 446 if no hit debuff is present. Gemming hit while at 511 hit doesn't seem optimal at all.

You should have Glyph of Windfury Weapon instead of Lava Lash.


racial ,Spirit,SS,FS,LL,LB on 5 MW,LB, ES

That doesn't make any sense to me. I'm not sure you can have a defined "starting" rotation because of the nature of Maelstrom Weapon, but regardless, Flame Shock is higher priority than Stormstrike and MW5 is higher priority than everything else, and you shouldn't be casting LB without MW stacks. No mention of Shamanistic Rage, either, which is a DPS cooldown thanks to your two piece bonus.

Octopusiano
09-08-2010, 08:28 AM
hi lumaines Thanks for taking the time to read and respond


You should have Glyph of Windfury Weapon instead of Lava Lash .

yes i was experimenting with glyph changes but usually using WW glyph tried FS as well last night.


and you shouldn't be casting LB without MW stacks.

LB isnt effected by MW .


No mention of Shamanistic Rage, either, which is a DPS cooldown thanks to your two piece bonus.

yeah that and racial and gloves haste boost all macro ed to be triggered at start.


I'm not sure you can have a defined "starting" rotation because of the nature of Maelstrom Weapon, but regardless, Flame Shock is higher priority than Stormstrike and MW5 is higher priority than everything else

true that as us not having a rotation or can even define it due to MW , sure trying with FS now ,

Hit rating 511 i mentioned that i am using Deathbringer's will as a replacement to shard of crystal heart which gives 128 HR thinking that Deathbringer's will might be causing the crit over cap issue then reduced haste so weapons dont fall under the 1.5-1.4 often and skip straight to lower values that based on an 7 minutes dummy study gave a 500 dps boost .

yet the problem isnt dps in general it's Dps in a 25 man raid environment which i dont think the dps should fall lower than 8k at the worst conditions even without misery or boomkin .

do you think its a crit over cap issue in 25 man raid or do you think since both weapons same speed the OH weapon falls sometimes within the 3 sec cooldown of WF of the MH weapon , i'll be investigating that tonight .

thanks again

swollenpickles
09-08-2010, 05:59 PM
LB isnt effected by MW .


Not real sure what the answer to your original question is but i think you two guys may be talking about different things when you use LB. LB could mean lightening bolt or lava burst, so that may be where the confusion is. lava burst isn't affected by MW as far as I know, but lightening bolt is.

Lumines
09-09-2010, 02:44 AM
yes i was experimenting with glyph changes but usually using WW glyph tried FS as well last night.


Personal experimentation (on a dummy, in raids, wherever) isn't going to be as reliable as sticking your toon into a simulator (Rawr, EnhSim) and using whatever it tells you is the best glyph setup. Just trying to save you some time :)


LB isnt effected by MW .

As swollenpickles pointed out, I believe we're talking at cross-purposes. From your original post, you said: "...LB on 5 MW,LB,..." which means you're either using LB to mean two separate things (and no good can come of that!) or you're casting Lava Burst as Enhance, which is also not going to do you any favours.




do you think its a crit over cap issue in 25 man raid or do you think since both weapons same speed the OH weapon falls sometimes within the 3 sec cooldown of WF of the MH weapon , i'll be investigating that tonight .


Matched weapon speeds aren't a problem, not least because you should be using WF on the MH and FT on the OH. For the crit cap, the EJ spreadsheet is here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PZOHXAZS) to help you determine if it's affecting you or not.

In general, if your DPS isn't increasing between a target dummy and a 25 man raid with full buffs, it's not your talents or gear. There's something fundamentally wrong with playstyle there. Does your framerate drop significantly in 25 man raids? That could significantly lower your DPS. Are you being smart with your ability usage when having to move (refreshing Magma Totem if it will expire when you're off the boss instead of using a technically higher priority ability; Shocking when moving instead of casting nothing etc.)?

Acidbaron
09-09-2010, 05:03 AM
For starters to show that i know what i'm talking about This (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Draenor&cn=Arxonis) is my shaman.

Glyphs, WF, Feral spirit, and FS.

You're stacking haste so there's no reason to not take FS.

Your spec is not optimal for a 25 man raid enviroment, look at my spec (first one second one is my PvP one) and ignore the 2 points in instant wolves (that's for halion HC) You have too many mana regen talents, Drop improved stormstrike and shamanisitic focus, this means you will soley depend on your cooldown to regain mana. In a 25 man setting with 1 or even 2 replenishments that's more then plenty. The 2 points can be dropped in improved shields 3/3 and 1 in reverberation, to make it smoother to swap your shocks aswel.

I've gotten so used to personally even using that spec in 10 mans and not going oom due to smart totem placement and using recall if needed to redrop.

As for DPS simulations as mentioned before dummies aren't correct, i'll log on and see how much i can put out on a dummy.

What do you mean about elixers? Just use Endless rage (ap flask).

Using Potions of Speed (2x per fight with pre-potting) helps aswel to increase your initial burst.


But i have to follow with Lumines, while a lot of haste does improve your dps you should most likely be putting out more then 8K in ICC. However movement does cripple our dps by a lot. Profressor Putricide and Princes can very painful to our dps but i do think you're probably doing something wrong.

First off shamanistic rage use it straight off at the start of the fight, you want to use that as much as possible do remember it's our biggest mana regen talent and do not use it if you have to move out and cannot hit anything, that's the basics really.

Why is LB in your rotation before LB before LB_MW5?

Are you casting LB before you hit the 5x proc? If yes, don't. 40% of our dmg comes from white hits standing there casting something at the cost of white hits and a WF proc is a dps loss.

To go into detail i do this at the start of a single target fight.

1)Prepot speed potion.
2) Totems (sometimes with Fire elemental sometimes with just magma totem fully depends if hero at the start type of fight, will my elemental last the entire fight or will i get pushed to another phase making it go to waste etc etc)
3) Wolves (I do this incase one of my other shamans think i'm slacking with a hero at the start and forcing me to use my hero for wolves after)
4) Shamanistic rage + hyperspeed gloves (macroed as gloves is off gcd)
5) Stormstrike, if not MW5 otherwise LB.
6) Flame shock (often i already have 1 on the boss if i'm running to it at the start)

And then i follow the priority system:

1)Maelstrom Weapon x 5 stacks - Lightning Bolt2)Flame Shock3)Stormstrike if debuff not active4)Lightning Shield if not active5)Fire Elemental6)Magma Totem if not active7)Spirit Wolves8)Shamanistic Rage9)Earthshock10)Stormstrike11)Lava Lash12)Fire Nova13)Magma Totem14)Lightning Shield
as listed on Elitist jerks, with taking notes on what i said earlier.

One other thing that might be worth knowing is that you have to sim if letting FS dot fall off for a ES is worth it (it often isn't) and if refreshing the dot at n- seconds left is good or not. I try to make it so my FS dot is always on the target so i only use ES if the time on the dot is greater then the CD of my shock spell, easier said then done i know but keeping FS dot on is for me more dps then throwing in a random ES at the cost of not having a FS for 3 to 6 seconds.



Trinket wise, DBW is bad, yes it's crap, really its' crap. Only on really high gear levels with enough haste then Arp starts to become valuable from my opinion but even then that trinket proc is not great for us as it's random and only the haste one is valuable and you're probably beter off using the Halion ArP trinket over that, Even beter would be the PP trinket or the 10 man Lady d one, however it all depends which of the 3 but that DBW drop it personally if you are in possesion of one of those 3.

You're using 3 pieces of the tier10, why aren't you using a 4th for the second set bonus?

Totem get Bizuri's totem of shatterd ice, the FS = haste stack one.

that's about it what i can see on first glance

Octopusiano
09-18-2010, 07:14 AM
@ swollen pickles Thanks for the input, thats true i was referring to Lava burst AS LB while on same post i did refer to it as Lightnen Bolt as well my bad and yeah i had it in my rotation for awhile when there was nothing else to do but dropped it.

@ Lumines thanks for the input
Matched weapon speeds aren't a problem, not least because you should be using WF on the MH and FT on the OH. For the crit cap, the EJ spreadsheet is here (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=PZOHXAZS) to help you determine if it's affecting you or not. i been experimenting with WF on both weapons and i think with a slower hand on OH it would decrease the OH falling with in the swing of the MH no solid data to prove that yet hypothetically i think its an issue ,

n general, if your DPS isn't increasing between a target dummy and a 25 man raid with full buffs, it's not your talents or gear. There's something fundamentally wrong with playstyle there.
amen i so agree to that yet even on a steady fight which is almost similar to a dummy trial it doesnt improve that much. and thats where my worries grows heavily ,,

P.S thanks for the sim sheet Lumi

Octopusiano
09-18-2010, 07:50 AM
@ Acidbaron Thanks alot really for the time you invested Looking at details and explaining Basic which i think enh shamies might find useful,
This is my 5th alt and i find the most challenging class and spec that i think :P is pulling my attention of my rogue,bear,lock,hunter thats why i am asking for help from experienced people in this class and spec such as ur self cause not like the other classes i mentioned above the variables in enh is beyond what i imagined whihc is beautiful in some way thats why i am seeking perfection .


Glyphs, WF, Feral spirit, and FS.
i chose the SS,WF,Feral Spirit AS per http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-talents.xml?r=Lightning%27s+Blade&cn=Rihmz&group=1 Cause EJ enh shamm Section is really not as good as other classes which is understandable really due to huge Variables in Enh shammies


our spec is not optimal for a 25 man raid enviroment
that will be changed was just pure fear or oom'ing


Why is LB in your rotation before LB before LB_MW5?
Lava burst had it in rotation for a while its not anymore.


To go into detail i do this at the start of a single target fight.
thats almost close to what i am doing at them moment now after lots of trials, how ever i didnt find the prio list on EJ aside fromt eh basic common sense of MW LB etc.


Trinket wise, DBW is bad,ou're using 3 pieces of the tier10, why aren't you using a 4th for the second set bonus?
true but havnt had a chance on other trinks and as 4 the 4th T10 piece :P few emblems shorts and gathering hopefully this week if Voa is generous or i do a full 10 man run , and this guild i join is granting me marks to get this char going to match the others.


that's about it what i can see on first glance
Question do u agree with some shammies using 2x WF or the WF MH FT OH

Thanks alot again for the effort u invested in replying and the details in your answer it was most appreciated.

Acidbaron
09-18-2010, 08:59 AM
With LB i ment lightning bolt the abv. for lava burst is generally LvB, just to point that small thing out :)

Regards to glyphs yes there has been some discussion regards to Flame shock vs Windfury, when moving from totc to ICC gear sims showed a dps gain for me with FS glyph, that combined with it showing up on the BiS list it left very little doubt that for me with ICC gear it's superior.
However (and this is the reason this reply took so long for me to make), i did some digging now and it seems the enhsim was incorrectly valueing the FS glyph, this was discovered last month and completely missed by me.


I had a couple of people ask why Glyph of Flame Shock dropped in dps for the latest release. As reported by jarmal, it's because the Glyph of Flame Shock's crit bonus was being misapplied. First, it wasn't affecting the direct damage of Flame Shock at all. Worse though, it was being added multiplicatively to the calculated spell crit multiplier rather than being additive to the spell crit bonus multiplier. So instead of have a 2.417 crit multiplier with Flame Shock, we were using a 3.344 crit multiplier. Without the glyph we would normally have a 2.09 crit multiplier, so this is obviously a rather large increase in the effect of the glyph.

Even with the lack of effect on the direct damage, it was still giving a large enough increase on the total effect of the glyph to skew the results. Now with the crit bonus being applied correctly, you should be seeing a more accurate reflection of the dps impact of Glyph of Flame Shock. From EJ.

So now having simmed it again with the recent enhsim (http://enhsim.codeplex.com/releases/view/50238), you were right and i was wrong therefor shame on me for missing that.

If you have no idea how to sim, here is a guide (http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/700644-Making-the-best-gear-choices-as-enhancement-read-before-asking-gear-questions/)

The priority list on EJ is under the BiS list topic, if you can't find it make sure you set the setting so you can see older threads, I believe Levva has a usefull 'starter' thread on MMO champion forums.

Windfury has a 3 second cool down on the ability, that counts for both weapons. So if you have WF proc of your MH it won't proc of your MH or OH untill those that 3 second cooldown is gone.
So using both isn't beneficial unless you have fairly low gear, as like just starting out with heroic 5 mans. I believe once you hit 1K spell power raid buffed. (don't forget to include 274 sp from FT itself) WF, mh and FT, OH is superior.

Last tip for dps, spirit wolves and your fire elemental can get heroism aswel but only if they are out when you use it, so making it so you are the 'heroism/bloodlust' shaman can make it easier for you to make sure it's always on your wolves if available or if not you can always pop your heroism again when you use them as they can be effected by it while everyone else has the debuff.

Ion
09-18-2010, 10:35 AM
Stormstrike is the best enhance glyph. Feral Spirits is #2. #3 can be any of WF, FS or LS. They're all fairly similar.

Also, your priority list changes with your gear, so just flat assuming that the BiS list's priority list is a bad idea. You'll almost certainly need to fiddle with it (especially if you don't have 4pt10). Start from the BiS list priority list and then see what works for you. FS is a nice opener because you don't need to be in melee and it ... oh, do you have the 264 haste totem? If not...get it. I was going to say FS is nice because it starts building up your haste while not even in melee yet, but if you don't have it then...get it.

Since you're an engineer you should be using hyperspeed accelerators on your gloves (dunno if you are, since you appear to be in pvp gear)...if you need to gem for hit, do that instead of enchanting your gloves with it, macro it in with SR and your racial and use it on cooldown as a high priority. Oh, nitro boosts to boots are also supremely glorious, but it's entirely possible you have that on your PvE boots, again, the benefits of the tinker means you should be using that, and if you need hit, gem for it (you can't gem for NITRO BOOSTS!).

WF/WF is always bad, since they made FT not suck. WF/FT is better assuming you're actually wearing gear. Replace FT with FB in PvP.

I'm apparently seeing you in PvP gear on the armory now, so I can't guess what your actual PvE gear looks like. But your stat priority should be something like (the first two are definite, the rest are subject to your gear, but AP and Haste are always good, crit is always close and arp/agi/int are always behind, just a matter of your gear):


Expertise to the cap (which is low since you're an orc using axes)
Hit to the spell hit cap (or to alleviate the crit cap, whichever is higher)
Haste
AP
Crit
ArP/Agi (they're about the same value)
Int

I see you have DBW (which is mediocre, but not bad), better trinkets would be WFS (both normal and heroic are better) and the war token (which is BiS). If you have access to heroic tiny abom it's quite exceptional as well. The normal version is fairly significantly less good, but still probably better than DBW (run the sim and find out).

The number one thing is, however, you should pretty much ALWAYS have a button to be hitting (especially as an engineer...if you have a free global, use a bomb). If you're not basically ALWAYS hitting something, you're probably doing it wrong.

Another thing to note is that movement fights crush enhance's DPS (PP is a fine example), where we really shine is on stand and deliver fights like DBS and Festergut (and, if you're lucky and to a lesser extent, even Rotface and Marrowgar).

Basically, run the sim, fiddle with your priorities and make sure you're hitting your buttons. Oh, I'd highly recommend Shock and Awe, you can input your priority and then it'll basically tell you what button you should be hitting now (I think I basically turned all the rest of what it does off, but it can be interesting too).

Acidbaron
09-18-2010, 11:09 AM
About the Shock and Awe queue, it's a nice learner tool.

I would argue that i found myself to play beter once learning to watch the ability timers and stacks. As often i found that SAA told me to refresh certain abilities at wrong times and it tells you what's the best ability to an extend to use 'right now' but often before your gcd a second has past and something else is beter, specially with shock swaps i found that to be an annoyance when trying to keep FS on the target constantly.

Personal preference perhaps but i found it beter to play without, i used the cd frames and set up need to know for my magma and fire elemental totem in addition to sham. rage.

Ion
09-18-2010, 01:38 PM
It is a bit sketchy around which shock you should be using, however if you know that it's fairly simple to not be stupid about it...however I'm guessing a large part of his problem is just not pressing his buttons, so I'd rather he do a slightly sub-optimal set of shocks and actually be pressing buttons than just be clueless and not pressing buttons.

Octopusiano
09-18-2010, 02:21 PM
Thanks for joining Ion
As for Shock and awe i used it for a while then minimized its usage for just the MW x5 warning and Light Shield magma totem as Acid said the shocks suggestion by S&A is annoying and i am 100% sure its behind or early all the times.


so I'd rather he do a slightly sub-optimal set of shocks and actually be pressing buttons than just be clueless and not pressing buttonsespecially as an engineer...if you have a free global, use a bomb)

i think i totally disagree with that as hypothetically bombs steals valuable time of ur white norm mele swings which can activate abilities crits or bonuses i am not sure if u would agree with that statement or not but when i expirmented with that on my combat rogue result with bombs was always lower than without unless its trash mobs

as for the 264 totem yes its qued right after the 4th T10 piece.

Thanks for the input and sharing

Acidbaron
09-18-2010, 02:40 PM
I don't think the bomb takes up a white hit as it's even off gcd and you still get a white hits just not the animation although i would have to test that.

What you're saying then is you grown accustomed to how to work with the priority queue, that's something else so that's fairly good. I've read somewhere it's still a net dps loss using it but i can't find the source and it's probably compared to how familair a person is with it all.

Octopusiano
09-18-2010, 02:45 PM
@ Acid baron


The priority list on EJ is under the BiS list topic

yup was as u mentioned older post i am looking at it now atm thanks alot

downloading the new SIM now and gonna be running it to see differences from the old one and also looking at the guide in case i missed something.

Dps didnt change much when LAg was increased to 360 which is worst i have seen.

Thanks again Acid lets see by next reset with the changes in style and gear would effect the over all issue .

thanks again for summing it all up and the effort to help .

Acidbaron
09-18-2010, 02:54 PM
You're welcome

Octopusiano
09-18-2010, 02:58 PM
ok i think the new sim is more accurate with the variables and rotation added just need to compare it now with a steady boss fight and test the bombs