View Full Version : Why do Death knights get the least respect out of all the tanks?
09-07-2010, 01:35 AM
At least on my server i have noticed that everyone seems to /sigh when a raid invites a death knight tank into the group.. Being a death knight tank my self it doesnt make me very pleased to here over vent (Why did you get a death knight tank, they suck) or (Death knights dont have a shield they cant tank!)
From a healers perspective which out of all the tanking classes takes the most damage is that why healers hate DK tanks do we take more damage then the other classes? i mean we have some kick ass damage reducing abilitys, we heal our selfs (14k Self Heals) are no joke!
Doesnt the healing from death strike etc make up for the lack of a blocking mechanic? Say i take a 20k hit and i heal 14k of that with death strike (Highest ive seen my Death strike hit) in reality i only take 6k damage while lets say a paladin takes that same hit he gets hit for the full 20k. Is it because the death knight gets hit more often?
Im just trying to figure out while being the OT? (There really isnt an OT for ICC) for my guild they still praise the MT pally (He gets more praise) then i do What i mean by MT/OT Is that the pally tank in our guild is the one in the fights that really just has to stand there build threat and take hits, while i have to do all the more movement/harder jobs (Abom on PP, Slimes on Rotface, Taking 100% damage on blood queen + the dot). Does a shield really matter all that much..
Its just not reinforcing tanking on my DK and hearing all the wines and moans.
09-07-2010, 02:03 AM
something that' is just dumb with some people, and apparently your server. DKs make for awesome tanks.
09-07-2010, 02:18 AM
Death Knights are still recovering from FotM status, meaning there are a lot of idiot DK's around. This has been slowing down throughout the xpac as the FotM rerollers go back to their original class, and the people who genuinely enjoy and understand their DK's stick around. But the taint still lingers.
Good DK tanks are indistinguishable from the other classes. Well, there are small differences but as a healer I barely notice what class is tanking for me.
edit: To answer your mechanic question, block is crap for raid bosses. A chance to block 2k damage is not going to help a ton when you're getting hit for 25k. It's very good for tanking adds, which is part of why people think of DK's and Bears as taking more damage - because a lot of their experience is in 5-mans, where an undergeared DK or Bear will definitely take more damage than an undergeared Warrior or Pally (especially Pally). Once you get geared, add tanking is pretty trivial with very rare exceptions.
To my knowledge, the only fights where being a DK tank would be a disadvantage are H Anub adds, and Algalon. Nothing in ICC, really.
09-07-2010, 02:36 AM
It's their lack of understanding that leads them to say these things. To me it's along the lines of when racism was accepted in real life. This is what drove me to be the best tank i could.
In my experience a lot of players choose DK's as an alt because it takes less time to level. If they have a non tanking toon and use a DK as their first tanking toon the player tends to be bad. I do agree that a good player can make a DK tank just plain awesome. While leveling you will notice more crappy dk tanks doing randoms, but in high level raiding most DK tanks are great. The other thing which makes dk tanking slightly more complicated is that DK's get 3 specs and a rediculous amount of abilities to choose from for tanking and like any class it is a matter of research that makes a player great. Many Dk tanks make odd specs which make them less than effective, trying to get the benefits of all 3 specs instead of taking most of one and the tanking talents in the others.
09-07-2010, 02:55 AM
I play 3 tanks, warrior, dk, paladin. Warrior being the best geared and paladin being the worst (6200, 5900, 5700 if you're into the GS shit). I've done heroic modes with them all and have asked all sorts of healers about the difference. None have noticed anything noticably different (except the pally taking a weee bit more damage due to gear difference - ilvl 200 shield sucks)
On the other hand, i find my dk the most versatile tank. Her ranged tanking capabilities are unmatched. I had other tanks from top end guilds not believe me when i said i could kite saurfang on lootship for the whole fight without taking a single hit and never losing aggro. I find i die the hardest on my dk on an imminent wipe with all healers dead.
So, i think it's just a perception perpetuated by the countless number of clueless DKs who queue up to heroics because it gets them in faster and frost presence dpsing = tanking lol
09-07-2010, 03:04 AM
I play a 6k+ GS bear tank and a 5k- GS DK tank. You do get all sorts of crap when you land in a random dungeon or a VoA group as a less than imba DK, because people assume you will loose agro and die.
People haven't gotten this idea for no reason though. You get a lot of fresh 80s and idiots on DK tanks (see also ret paladin and hunter, but this has less of an impact on the group), and the rune mechanic is actually quite punishing, making severe mistakes more difficult to recover from than for other classes.
Best thing to do imo is to take a few guildies with you (I do this in PuGs and LFG anyway) who know you can play.
09-07-2010, 06:13 AM
I also have multiple tanks, Warrior, Pally, DK, and I have to second that the DK is a very unforgiving tank, but when they are played well they can be almost brokenly good. I find that warrior tanks are few and far between on Hordeside Azuremyst EU, and to a much greater extent Bears too, while DKs and Pallies tend to be much more prolific. So the likely hood is that you are going either have a pally or DK tank, now when either class screws the pooch, the pally being more forgiving, is less likely to generate an aura of "this tanks sucks"
And then it kinda turns into a self perpetuation phenomena, becuase people think DKs suck they tend to assume DKs will suck, so any time a DK does mess up, its not becuase they where played badly, its becuase the class sucks, and becuase the class sucks they assume the DK will suck.
thing is some tanks are horribly favoured by boss encounter mechanics, on LK i think, i'd much rather be using my pally, likewise tanking keleseth i abhor doing it on the pally, the warrior and DK have much better tools for that fight, and again big ooze on rotface is not very warrior unfreindly
i do find AoE trash clearing Blood DKs are far below par on ease of use than warriors and paladins. but then its just trash...
09-07-2010, 07:22 AM
1.) The sheeple aren't nearly as smart as they are opinionated. DKs are new and there are still some lingering dumbness like "no shield can't tank," you know, since Bears haven't been around for years...
2.) New kid on the block, flavor of the month, the over-played class. Pretty much since it was the first new class to be added to the game (combined with the fact that it started very favorably in the balance) means the servers were flush with them. The only class that matched the market share on DKs for the first 3/4ths of WotLK was Paladins and they were still a couple % behind. When something is over-played it tends to garner a degree of dislike.
3.) As mentioned, when anything attracts loads of people because of its "awesome" reputation, there are invariably swarms of people who got so caught up on the coolness that they forgot to learn how to play it. DKs can tank in any tree, and can get a major stat change by swapping presences, but a lot of people let that lead them to believe that if they put on Frost Pres they can tank in any spec with any gear. Or varying shades of dumb in between. It makes me cry to still see DKs joining groups as tanks with a set of mixed dps and pvp gear. Uncrittable while helpful is only the tip of the iceberg for being a strong functioning tank.
4.) Add LFD. LFD queue for a DPS in the best of cases is usually 12-15 min, queue for a tank is 0-30 sec in the worst of cases. "So if I check the tank box, I can run instances WAY faster and not wait... I have Frost Pres..." (see #3)
So, beyond public opinion, which is what this is all about:
Do DKs take more damage? Frost/Unholy, no. Blood, yes, but you don't appear to because of the self-healing, so essentially, no.
Are they harder to heal by nature? Heck no.
Is the class somehow incapable of tanking effectively in *any* way not player dependent? Nope.
Public opinion is just that, and you know what they say about opinions.
09-07-2010, 07:26 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that ulduar had something to do with it, at least in the terms of tanks are discussing respect for other tanking classes.
09-07-2010, 07:38 AM
ill like to say i have alt dk and its quite fun but i swept when i look at omen sometimes dks just need macros and its all cool
09-07-2010, 08:54 AM
I have played healer and 3 of the 4 tank classes including DK. I have never heard or personally felt like DKs are inferior tanks. With all respect perhaps it's you as a player or gear score that they are complaining about. I've always thought it was the warrior that some people held a bias against for lack of AOE ability. If a player is geared and experienced I could care less what class they choose to play.
09-07-2010, 10:23 AM
It's because there are (or have been) an *awful* lot of stupid people playing Deathknights. Because Tanking takes a completely different approach and mindset (read: the tank is *not* the Melee DPS~er that the healers have to watch), compared to Damage Dealing. And because playing a Deathknight really well takes a little more thoughtfulness and planning at times than is required on some other classes.
(My DK tank's name is Therise. Same server as Adillysse)
09-07-2010, 11:30 AM
Probably they're just focusing on the other things that matter to what they think is good.
09-07-2010, 12:48 PM
They ride the short bus to school.