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penademuerte
09-06-2010, 09:04 AM
Hello, I recently hit 80 on this rogue and have a few questions.
1. Is there a sticky for rogues like there is a sticky for DK's as in Satorri's awesome comprehensive guid to DK tanking.
2. Which spec is best for raiding Mut vs. Combat.
3. If there is a sticky for rogues like the one for Dk's can some one link it so i can go and find the answers to my questions myself so i can learn it better.
4. I am currently not dual spec'ed but plan on it in the next couple of days. I am going to get a combat spec since I just obtained the frost giants cleaver and night time, both one handed axes. can someone look at my mut spec and give advice there. I am not sure what i am doing wrong, but i find myself constantly waiting on energy to build so i can do my attacks. Is it that I have gotton so used to playing a dk and warrior and always having gobs of rage and runic power to have to dump that i dont have the art of waiting down yet or is it part of the rogue style of play that you have to slow down in order to speed up so to speak to let your energy build. Is there something i am missing in my spec that will give me more energy so i wont have to wait on it to build so i can do damage. Thank you in advance for your help.
My armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco)

Lumines
09-06-2010, 12:18 PM
Rogues are supposed to be energy-limited.

This is a great guide for starting out (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk_updated_3_3_a/). There's a ton of info over at Elitist Jerks if you're willing to search for it.

Insahnity
09-07-2010, 07:36 PM
Yeah, get used to energy starvation. Lumines has pointed you to what I consider everything you need to know for level 80 rogues, and it's the sticky you are looking for, just not on this site.

Unlike Rage or Mana, you don't have a lot of it, and the only way to get it back is to not use it and wait for it to regen, or through very tiny gains. Combat gets it through offhand attacks or popping adrenaline rush. Mutilate can get more through crits and sometimes finishing moves (EJ recommends only a few points into relentless strikes, and they are correct), and most importantly, a 30% regen buff during cloak and for a bit shortly thereafter (which you regain by recloaking out of combat or vanishing mid fight).

Zxian
09-08-2010, 03:14 AM
1) Elitist Jerks has all the info you'll need. Follow the link that Lumines gave you. When in doubt, consult that thread. If you're confused, read it again.
2) Both Mutilate and Combat are viable specs. Ultimately, it comes down to the player. If I had to pick one or the other, I'd say go for Combat since it's more versatile in most ICC fights, and the choice of spec will ultimately affect your gear and gem choices.
3) See #1.
4) Your problem with energy that you're facing right now comes from a lack of understanding of class mechanics. For Assassination, you get energy back from Focused Attacks (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=51636/focused-attacks), and for Combat, you get it from Combat Potency (http://www.wowhead.com/spell=35553). I'm not sure what your Assassination weapons are like, but for combat, you need to have a fast offhand. Rogues are one of the prime classes where gearscore means very little, and even an ilvl 200 sword/axe that's 1.5 speed will likely give you better overall DPS than Nighttime.

Rogues are all about maintaining a maximal buff/debuff uptime. You need to manage your energy and combo points appropriately in order to maintain this, and it's not nearly as cut and dry of a rotation as you'd find with a warrior or DK. Assassination requires a little more finesse in order to maintain this properly than Combat does, but the general idea is that you will almost always be energy starved. Having a full energy bar means you're doing something wrong.

The guides on Elitist Jerks assume a certain level of gear in order to perform well. The 51/18/2 spec that you see running around is not (I repeat, NOT) optimal for a fresh 80 rogue (and in these days, you're still a fresh 80 with the gear you have). The Assassination spec you have is also incorrect. Vigor is bad for PvE (http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?70137-Assassination-DPS-Vigor-FTW). Aggression does nothing for Assassination builds, and Relentless Strikes is better than Opportunity. Also, if you're going to go Assassination, pick up Fleet Footed. Never underestimate the value of getting to your target or out of fire quicker. Go for the old 51/13/7 (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#f0ec0egoVboIuVo0xV0hZxb:ITp) build for Assassination, or 15/51/5 (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#fbe00xZMgVo0cxqru0xRtx:Nhk) for Combat the until you start to hit the point where you have too much energy (you'll know when this is).


Also, your first Frost badge choices should be the Hermkul War Token, and then 2pc T10. After that, you can consider offpieces if they're good upgrades. Secondly, stop it with the expertise gemming. Having played a warrior and a DK before, you should know that you only need 26 in order to push dodge off the hit table. 39 is far too much as combat, and means that you can free up 2 points in the combat tree.

Krays
09-08-2010, 05:02 AM
lol it looks like someone dragged you through icc the day you dinged 80, meaning nice gear in some slots and greenies in others lol.

What yiu need to do whil you wait for icc reset is run the icc 5 mans over and over , till you get the trinket from FoS hc, and the of hand sword from HoR hc, since nightime is a mainhand weapon for comnbat, you need a fster one. However if you ever pvp as comnbat, two slow weapons is the way to go, to try and kill people inside of a KS.

penademuerte
09-09-2010, 06:11 PM
Yes to answer your question the guild did drag me along on an icc 10 man a few days after i hhit 80 thats where i got the back that helped put me way over exp cap, I am going to take out all exp gems and put in agility. I will also tweek both specs to align up with the ones linked here ...again thank you so much for the advice and the link to the elitist jerks thread. I have since gotton NeS and am working on getting enough badges for the Herkulum war token, then I will get the 2pc T10 from there.

Thank you
Furrytaco

Krays
09-10-2010, 10:43 AM
Yes to answer your question the guild did drag me along on an icc 10 man a few days after i hhit 80 thats where i got the back that helped put me way over exp cap, I am going to take out all exp gems and put in agility. I will also tweek both specs to align up with the ones linked here ...again thank you so much for the advice and the link to the elitist jerks thread. I have since gotton NeS and am working on getting enough badges for the Herkulum war token, then I will get the 2pc T10 from there.

Thank you
Furrytaco

If you gem agility, you gonna need to regem again to attack power later on, and then one again for ApR at a later date. Better to just gem all attack power, and apr till soft cap, forget gemming agi. If even getting soft cap is too hard, dw about it , and gem some starks in yellow instead of trying to get soft cap till you get more gear. Dont waste time on herkumi totem yet, instead run normal toc over and over till you get banner of victory, its a fantastic trinket and goes better with combat at your gear level, spreadsheets will confirm this too, even though herkumi has more DPS points on its own. If you really wann buy something with badges consider, either the belt or cape.

Jammer Six
09-10-2010, 11:43 AM
Won't use elitist jerks.

On top of attitude, he makes several (rather basic) errors.

That his site appeals to many doesn't speak highly of the crowd; either in manners or critical thinking.

On topic, I've been thinking about gemming my rogue for haste.

On topic, I've been thinking about re-gemming my rogue for haste.

Zxian
09-10-2010, 12:16 PM
If you gem agility, you gonna need to regem again to attack power later on, and then one again for ApR at a later date. Better to just gem all attack power, and apr till soft cap, forget gemming agi. If even getting soft cap is too hard, dw about it , and gem some starks in yellow instead of trying to get soft cap till you get more gear. Dont waste time on herkumi totem yet, instead run normal toc over and over till you get banner of victory, its a fantastic trinket and goes better with combat at your gear level, spreadsheets will confirm this too, even though herkumi has more DPS points on its own. If you really wann buy something with badges consider, either the belt or cape.

If he's going to put aside something to buy with badges, he should still go for the T10 2pc bonus first. On top of the stats it provides, the bonus is worth about 250EP, and most people have run the numbers to find that we've never had a set bonus that's as valuable as that (rogue set bonuses have been pretty sad in WotLK).


On top of attitude, he makes several (rather basic) errors.

That his site appeals to many doesn't speak highly of the crowd; either in manners or critical thinking.

Who is 'he' that you're speaking of? And what are these 'basic errors'? Making claims that something is wrong is easy. Proving it is a whole other story.

Krays
09-10-2010, 01:19 PM
If he's going to put aside something to buy with badges, he should still go for the T10 2pc bonus first. On top of the stats it provides, the bonus is worth about 250EP, and most people have run the numbers to find that we've never had a set bonus that's as valuable as that (rogue set bonuses have been pretty sad in WotLK).



Who is 'he' that you're speaking of? And what are these 'basic errors'? Making claims that something is wrong is easy. Proving it is a whole other story.

Yeah agreed, two set first, i just assumed he would be getting that first anyway, or get it for free from voa. Shoulders and hands ( i got hands from voa, got legs too), was what i got first, simply cause it was cheapest, but he may aswell get helmet (60 badges only and hands for free and legs). Might be better for him to run voa a few weeks first just to see if he gets lucky. Thats what i did.

Ps the bladeborn legs from lw are fantastic. Also OP you never mentioned, what you doing about Off hand? thats really important for you to fix that asap, or you will be gimping your sustained dps. Oh and get banner of victory, ( i know im repeating myself now :P), its a bad boy, just compare it to dbw, and you will see why its so good for its Ilevel.

Jammer Six
09-10-2010, 04:28 PM
Who is 'he' that you're speaking of? And what are these 'basic errors'? Making claims that something is wrong is easy. Proving it is a whole other story.
I don't need to prove it. We're talking about your decisions, not mine.

Please, continue to use Elitist Jerks, and whatever you do, don't question his results.

The site is, after all, his best effort, and that effort has been, apparently, considerable.

Zxian
09-11-2010, 11:53 AM
I don't need to prove it. We're talking about your decisions, not mine.

Please, continue to use Elitist Jerks, and whatever you do, don't question his results.

The site is, after all, his best effort, and that effort has been, apparently, considerable.

Again... who is 'he'? There are several users on Elitist Jerks - it's a guild website afterall.

You said that there were 'several basic errors' regarding the information found on EJ. What are they? If there are several, point some of the more obvious ones out.

I do question people's results. As an engineer IRL, I need to have that mentality. That's why I sat down one day and walked myself through the 'calcs' page of Aldrianna's spreadsheet. When I realized that the calculations looked sound, I started using it to help for my own gearing choices. Furthermore, a second (independently created) spreadsheet available there and a third party Java program give similar simulation results. I'd say that's pretty well verified.

I smell a troll lurking.... :rolleyes:

Jammer Six
09-11-2010, 01:25 PM
I do question people's results.
...
I smell a troll lurking....
As you wish.

The main problem with elitist jerks is inherent to their "application" of the scientific method. They are a case study in why intercourse and exchange between observers should never be limited. Ignoring the practicalities for a moment, the results of that basic premise at elitist jerks is beyond my ability to calculate.

In example, I give you this exchange, quoted straight from their website. The subject doesn't matter. It is indicative of the very opposite of the scientific method; in fact, it reminds me of a Middle Age Catholic priest explaining why obedience to the church was a necessity.

"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."

Elitist jerks is attempting to do two contradictory things. They are attempting to discuss and share information without being bothered to share information. (I suggest you don't answer that they're attempting to limit information exchange to their guild, or to "trained" or "qualified" observers. That would be so much worse. I'm being kind.)

They remind me of my son, back when he was around 21 or 22, about halfway through his training, when he knew some of the words, but didn't understand the principles, nor why his results were flawed. He was as certain as they are that his new, fresh look (read tiny glimpse) at the available data (read the tiny slice that he had had time to find) would lead him to miraculous breakthroughs, (read the same mistakes and dead ends that the rest of us had visited) and he was as arrogant (read foolish) as they are about denigrating the careful work that others had done.

The only upside to that stage of development is energy and, perhaps, lack of frustration.

So, there you go. My opinion.

What I suggest is this: go back and read the sections of elitist jerks dearest to your heart, and bear in mind these points. Watch for any effect this attitude may have on their conclusions.

After that, if you're still interested, apply a rigorous course of examination, looking for pure, theoretical scientific method in what elitist jerks claim to have done.

The mistake I found convinced me to ignore elitist jerks. Your milage, of course, may vary, in which case I urge you, as I did above, to continue to use them.

Martie
09-11-2010, 01:32 PM
As you wish.

"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."

Way to paraphrase.

I came across that quote too. It was in a quick question-quick answer style list, and it's a followup question to taking one of two talents. The bit you quoted intentionally did not go into the math behind it.

Lumines
09-11-2010, 02:42 PM
"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."



I think you mis-understand why they have answers such as that in the stickies. It's because the attitude is that the information is present elsewhere on the site if you're willing to look for it. It is not "we know what the answer is, but we're not sharing it with you peasants", it's "the information is there if you want to dig for it, but we're not going to hold your hand if you're too lazy to do so yourself".

If your issue was that the search function is inadequate for that attitude, then fair enough, but I don't think your criticism is really fair.

Jammer Six
09-11-2010, 05:14 PM
Yup, we've come full circle. We're back to "you guys absolutely should use elitist jerks.".

Zxian
09-11-2010, 08:23 PM
"Why . . . . ?"

"Because it's better."The problem with this type of answer when it comes to WoW Stickies is not the fault of the people writing the simple guides - it's the fault of the players who can't be bothered to put in the time to figure things out properly. I can't count the number of threads I've replied to here and on other forums (and to guildmates in game) who mindlessly gear up their characters. The EHP thread here on Tankspot and the 'avoidance vs EHP' debate (which I never want to see again) is a prime example of how math and arguments has been refuted by 'opinions' and 'feelings'.


Elitist jerks is attempting to do two contradictory things. They are attempting to discuss and share information without being bothered to share information. (I suggest you don't answer that they're attempting to limit information exchange to their guild, or to "trained" or "qualified" observers. That would be so much worse. I'm being kind.)Where do you have any proof that EJ is hiding information from us?


They remind me of my son, back when he was around 21 or 22, about halfway through his training, when he knew some of the words, but didn't understand the principles, nor why his results were flawed. He was as certain as they are that his new, fresh look (read tiny glimpse) at the available data (read the tiny slice that he had had time to find) would lead him to miraculous breakthroughs, (read the same mistakes and dead ends that the rest of us had visited) and he was as arrogant (read foolish) as they are about denigrating the careful work that others had done.

...

So, there you go. My opinion.You still haven't really disproven anything here. Are you sure you understand the math behind rogue mechanics? Rogue mechanics and playstyle are not that complicated (compared to other classes such as Frost DKs or feral druids), and as I mentioned before - three independent sources giving very similar results.

An opinion without proof (the kind of scientific method proof you keep mentioning in your arguments) is just that - an opinion. Until you PROVE otherwise, I'll keep working with the math that's been verified by a community (note... multiple people, not a 'he').



What I suggest is this: go back and read the sections of elitist jerks dearest to your heart, and bear in mind these points. Watch for any effect this attitude may have on their conclusions.

After that, if you're still interested, apply a rigorous course of examination, looking for pure, theoretical scientific method in what elitist jerks claim to have done.

The mistake I found convinced me to ignore elitist jerks. Your milage, of course, may vary, in which case I urge you, as I did above, to continue to use them.
Who said anything about 'dear to my heart'? I really thing you need to reconsider the point of view, and the advice, that I've been giving.

Have you ever taken a look at the 'calcs' page of either Aldrianna's or Mavannas' spreadsheets? There's about 34,000 cells of calculations in that sheet, all working out a proper, statistical representation of how a rogue can be properly played.

http://www.kwikpiks.com/files/1/EJ_SS_calcs_thumb.png (http://www.kwikpiks.com/files/1/EJ_SS_calcs.PNG)

I recommend the EJ guides and posts because they have been argued and refuted. I've had a number of posts deleted and 'warnings' issued from the EJ community because they had already been asked and answered. I simply hadn't taken the time to properly search for the question I had. The Pocket Guide (which is meant to be an abridged version of how to play a rogue) has 66 pages - that's 1650 posts from all sorts of people. The ones who know the material, the ones who are asking questions, and the ones who are answering them. Now... if you want to continue going on about 'EJ is hiding the real information', please go right ahead. I'm not going to stop you from digging yourself a hole.


How about you answer a direct question: What if I were to recommend that people use iDPS in order to determine gear and spec questions?

Jammer Six
09-11-2010, 09:30 PM
I have a much better idea.

For the third time, please, continue using elitist jerks.

Because it's better.

Lumines
09-12-2010, 03:46 AM
Because it's better.

Better than...?

You've still not given a solid reason why people should be suspicious of EJ. I would be extremely curious to see what the specific mistake you found was that's left you with such strong feelings about what's widely considered (not a measure of validity, I know) to be the best location of general DPS theorycrafting. Of course, it's easier to make bold assertions about basic errors without spelling them out, right? ;)

penademuerte
09-12-2010, 08:25 AM
Heck I didnt know i was opening such a big can of worms. I have been drug through ICC 25 now thanks to the guild and have remedied the off hand issue with Heartpierce. I have gotton my ashen verdict ring and the iLevel 264 off marrowgar, now just have to replace the hands, head, neck, and trinket, and upgrade the legs and belt. Thank you guys for offering your opinions and giving of advice, i really appreciate it. I understand that playing a rogue properly is something that takes time to learn, but I am trying. I will change out those agility gems for attack power. Thanks again.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco)

Zxian
09-12-2010, 04:46 PM
Heck I didnt know i was opening such a big can of worms.

Not your fault. Some people are just bitter. :)


I have been drug through ICC 25 now thanks to the guild and have remedied the off hand issue with Heartpierce. I have gotton my ashen verdict ring and the iLevel 264 off marrowgar, now just have to replace the hands, head, neck, and trinket, and upgrade the legs and belt. Thank you guys for offering your opinions and giving of advice, i really appreciate it. I understand that playing a rogue properly is something that takes time to learn, but I am trying. I will change out those agility gems for attack power. Thanks again.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&cn=Furrytaco)

Heartpierce is likely much better than Nighttime, but you're no longer benefitting from Hack and Slash from your offhand swings (because it's not an axe or sword). Furthermore, 1.8 is still quite slow for an offhand (you want 1.6 or faster).

If you can get your hands on Bone Warden's Splitter (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50759) (Marrowgar10) or Scourgeborne Waraxe (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50411) (Gunship25), go for it. Both of those would work out better than Heartpierce.

Your assassination spec seems to have changed, but you've still got a couple of small things wrong. Glyph of Vigor should be Glyph of Tricks or Glyph of Fan of Knives. The point in Aggression should go into Lightning Reflexes (you're never using SS, BS, or Eviscerate anyways), and you still have an extra unused talent point, which should go into Relentless Strikes.

Start farming heroics for T9 and the Triumph Badge trinket. All of those pieces are fairly good until you can find replacements in ICC.

Vong
09-13-2010, 06:11 AM
^
whoohoo back on topic.

:-)

Zxian
09-13-2010, 08:11 AM
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543
;)

penademuerte
09-14-2010, 09:06 AM
Zxian that is a funny song on that link man.....anyway where i am at now is stacking agility the proper thing to do because as of right now i am finding i am doing more dps in the combat spec. I will change the affore mentioned things in my spec as soon as the reset is over with today. Thank you again

Furry

Zxian
09-14-2010, 12:37 PM
I wouldn't bother replacing any of the gems in your gear just yet. For now, the difference between Agi and Ap is going to be small (although if you're going for orange gems, make sure you're using AP/haste and not AP/crit).

Once you start picking up more gear along the way, you'll likely notice that your ArP will go up. There will be a point at which ArP is stronger than AP or Agi, and the more you have, the better it gets (as opposed to all other stats, that actually get worse point for point as you have more).

If you want to find out what gems are good and which aren't, download iDPS (http://code.google.com/p/idps/). It's a Java app that will let you import your character and select different configurations of gear and gems. That way, you can play around with gems, enchants, and upgrades to see what will get you the most DPS.

penademuerte
09-18-2010, 05:40 PM
Zxian is it worth gemming armor-pen now that it is going to be a talent or passive thing when cata comes out.....I am just wondering cause my gear is getting better and by the time i get to where u are talking about stacking armor-pen it might be cata time and then where would i be?? Also, since i dont need the hit from the enchant on my boots what would be the best enchant to have there greater assault or superior agility??

Zxian
09-19-2010, 09:27 PM
I'm hoping you just logged out in your Mutilate gear, but combat spec. Combat daggers does not work. Full stop. :P

Your best bet is to just stick with gemming what's best for your gear now rather than worry about the next xpac. When Cata drops, you'll be working on leveling to 85 anyways, and all the rules will change.

Icewalker is always the best enchant for boots, even if you're above the poison hit cap. There is no other alternative for PvE.

Go read the guides on EJ (like... actually sit down and read them, don't just skim). They'll likely answer many of your questions before you ask them here.

Jammer Six
09-19-2010, 11:41 PM
Go read the guides on EJ (like... actually sit down and read them, don't just skim). They'll likely answer many of your questions before you ask them here.[/QUOTE]

No. They won't. That's one of the minor problems with Elitist Jerks.

Zxian
09-20-2010, 09:17 AM
No. They won't. That's one of the minor problems with Elitist Jerks.

Yes. They will.


Q: Which stats are good for combat?
A: At high gear levels, ArPen usually takes over; until you get there, it can be almost anything. I've seen Agi, AP, Hit, and Haste all take the top position depending on the exact details of your gear setup - check a spreadsheet to find the answer that's right for you. But by late ICC gear levels, the rule of thumb seems to be enough Exp and Hit to fix any crit cap issues you may have and then stack ArPen. In some gear setups you might find it advantageous to use a haste gem or two.-3.3 Rogue FAQ (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t54257-3_3_rogue_faq_if_youre_new_ish_here_read_before_po sting_updated_2_3_10_a/) (linked from Pocket Guide to WOTLK (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t37183-pocket_guide_wotlk_updated_3_3_a/))

See? An answer for penademuerte's latest question. Oh wait. It says to consult a spreadsheet. Ohnoes. Work that I would have to do in order to determine what is best for my rogue. What a terrible idea.

Furthermore, the Pocket Guide has an entire table for which enchants Rogues should use. There is little choice for us, and it really only depends on whether you have the profession for said enchant, or if you've got a movespeed bonus for free from talents. (If you're not running with Cat's Swiftness or Tuskarr's Vitality on your boots as combat, you're asking for trouble in any serious raiding guild). There's also only one correct choice for meta gems for Rogues, and it isn't 21crit/3% crit damage.

This is why I suggest people read and learn. Give a man a fish, and he'll eat. Teach a man to fish, and he'll never go hungry.

P.S. I'm still waiting for you to give a viable alternative.

logansrogue
09-29-2010, 08:32 PM
wow this thread helped me out trying to find a good way to find info for trying to build my new rogue beside the unneeded and somewhat uncalled for interuption from Jammer Six

Jammer Six
09-29-2010, 10:26 PM
Then your path forward is absolutely clear: elitist jerks is definitely for you!

Good luck!