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View Full Version : Tanking Fresh 80 Warrior Tank, Heroic issues



Zalvered
09-05-2010, 07:52 AM
So, this is my first WoW character and obviously first 80. I am trying to catch up to a group of friends that play the game. I ran my first Heroic dungeon this morning, after turning 80 last night. My GS was far lower then everyone elses in the group, and initially most were complaining. They talked it out and said they would give me time to build aggro. We were in UK and the first room of pulls went fine, they gave me time I held the mobs and we moved on. Then the room with the dragons, we move through the first 3 pulls fine, but on the last pull to leave the room I died pretty quick in the combat. That is when all the complaining started. The healer(pally) started looking for other healers so that he could tank. Feeling like the third wheel, I bailed. I have never bailed on a group, but that was the type of reaction I feared I would get in pug heroics until I reach a 5k GS. My question is, should that be what I expect from all the heroic runs? If so, I can run with my friends to get better gear, I just thought I could pug heroics like I puged from 15-80 in non-heroics. If I should not be running pug heroics, what should I be doing to get gear?

I don't mind the challenge Heriocs present, in fact I look forward to it, but with my toon built the way he is, a 5600 GS mage or druid can almost steal aggro at will. Maybe I am doing something wrong. I have been on this site alot and the help you guys have been has been great. For the most part new people to WoW seem welcome on here, that is a relief. So thanks for the great site and help you have already give me.

Here is the little fella:

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alterac+Mountains&cn=Zalvered

Thanks in advanced for any help.

Zal

Loganisis
09-05-2010, 08:31 AM
Threat will be a problem. You might think about:

A) Replacing Glyph of Shockwave with Glyph of Devastate. It's the best threat glyph out there.
B) Macro-ing Shield block to Shield Slam for the threat boost. (not recommended for raiding but for gearing heroics if threat is an issue)
This would leave you with Glyphs of Blocking, Devastate, and Cleave which will all help for heroic threat.

C) Switch to a deep-wounds spec:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LAM00fZhZMItrx0didIzsGo
(much much more can be found in the thread it's from, Aggy's Prot Warrior Guide, http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?60155-Agg-s-Prot-War-Tanking-Guide)

D) Don't be afraid to tell DPS to single-target and use raid icons to mark kill orders (skull, X, etc). That way even if they do pull aggro, everyone is nuking the same mob so as long as it's not a boss, it should die almost immediately.

E) Are you always SS-ing when it's up and then following the rest of the priority list in Aggy's guide?

****

F) You're not at the defense minimum for heroics 536 (532 iirc with the 10k honor PvP enchants for the shoulders), so you're going to take some crits which is going to be a problem with your health/armor. Some Def enchants would help.


If your friends can help you (maybe even pull you along) in some higher level instances they can 4 man (if they have a tank) they can help you gear up that way too.

As you gear, pugging will be difficult just the fact that DPS with high levels of gear will put out a lot of threat compared to you even just auto-attacking.

if you can get a higher level wep, that will help a lot too (see if they can run you through ToC5H -though you won't be able to queue for it, you'll have to go to it- and get lucky with Peacekeeper's blade)

Good luck

Raiju
09-05-2010, 08:37 AM
Well you don't need 5k gearscore but you should at least be crit immune to start puging heroics. I sugest you get your defense to 535 before trying heroics. I know it is hard I've done it around march. What I did was keep running normal dungeons until I had the best possible gear I could get from there (check wowwiki for the drop lists and see which dungeons you need to run), and I got a few ilevel200 craftables I think. It also would help to get a few more cheap enchants to boost your defense and hp. Now when you have 535 defense, around 22k hp, and are competent, you should be ready. Just dont be discouraged by bad/lazy healers or dps who don't help you, and even if you get kicked or something keep trying. Very quickly you will also overgear heroics and then you can chainpull.

Raij
09-05-2010, 08:41 AM
Hey, you be stealin' my name!

In terms of helping the OP. Glyph for threat, make sure you are defense capped and tank your heart out. It can be rough at first. I'd maybe suggest an aoe threat spec:


http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZhgcZVItrx0didczsGo:dMfMom

Tinytankz
09-05-2010, 10:48 AM
Check my Sig for a gear guide just keep tanking some gruops will kick you just reque practice makes perfect and it is a only a GAME

Zalvered
09-05-2010, 10:55 AM
OK, I ran 4 in a row with much better results. Thank you for your input/help, I will look at all of it. I realize I made a mistake, or didn't understand something. In the defense tab of the character sheet their is a defense number, if you cursor over it the 2nd thing down is defense rating. That is the number I thought had to be over 540. :( I was actually looking for items with less "defense rating" thinking I was well over what I needed to be. NEWB! lol I actually had Devestate glyph but read online that shockwave glyph was good. I will switch back.

I have read that post, but I have found so many opinions online that I was not sure what to use. I ended up going the cleave route just to get the extra health from commanding shout. Is it pretty standard to go deep wounds? I am not questioning you on if it is good, but is that the general opinion of the route to go? I will switch if it is.

I shield slam all the time.

I put two points into spell reflect because I saw it online. :) It doesn't seem all that great to this point. Is that something I can/should drop when I respec to deep wounds?

Raij, that is pretty close to what I have right now. I see a few differences, commanding shout, something I thought would be a good talent seems to be ignored in all builds I look at, so I guess I am wrong and will swap that out.

To sum it up. I either need to go deep wounds or cleave? I understand now that my defense rating is not close to what it needs to be, and will start working on it. I bought my first item with emblems, but I think in hind sight I put the wrong gem in it. When I socketed it, I thought my defense rating was already good. So that kinda sucks, but live and learn. lol

Thanks for your help, I will work on it and keep reading tankspot threads for more info.

Zal

Edit:

I have some friends that are going to buff my items with enchants and armor buffs, but they kept telling me they are wasting anything till I get to 80, and they are on vaca for the weekend. I will definetly take care of that.

Raij
09-05-2010, 11:11 AM
That is a pure aoe spec, not a survival spec, which is why commanding is left out, you won't get deep enough in prot otherwise. Read the warrior threat thread for more details on my thoughts.


http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?70339-warrior-threat-continued&p=453955#post453955

Zalvered
09-05-2010, 01:08 PM
That is one heck of a thread. I don't understand everything, but I get the impression you know what you are doing. I will respec tonight, and get to work on a good rotation. I have been doing things wrong it seems.

I geared up a bit today. I got my defense rating to 542, and Health up to 21.4k without any of the armor kits or enchants I will get today or tomorrow. I think I am heading in the right direction. I am just glad I am excited about this again. I was so excited reaching for 80, and then to get dumped on in my first run was disappointing to say the least.

Thanks again guys, you don't have to take the time, but you do, and that is what makes me love this site.

Zal

Edit:

Raij, against regular pulls I assume I swap out HS for Cleave? I see it is spec in the talent tree. I just use it whenever I have enough rage right now, and switch to HS during boss fights.

Raij
09-05-2010, 01:23 PM
If you are tanking one mob, HS, if you are tanking more than one replace HS with cleave. Yes.

Lambie
09-05-2010, 02:24 PM
What I did when I just turned 80 was that I did like 5-10 Toc5man normal runs, it has like 5-6 epic gear that is really good for tanks, and a trinket that u will use all the way to ICC. and then for 2 days straight I did every dungeon heroic random as dps. then I had enough emblems to get to around 25k hp unbuffed, then I started to tank abit. (remember to get 535 Defence if ur tanking heroics) then If U do every heroics each day for about 1 week, u will get full heroic emblem gear. and be ready to tank ICC5man and start with maybe 4 bosses in ICC. that was my road pretty much. and pretty much ignore every player u do heroic with, everyone want a 10mins run to get their 2 frosties and be done with it. t

Aberen
09-05-2010, 02:58 PM
Don't forget the 3 new wrath dungeons, forge of souls, pit of saron, and halls of reflection. Start grining the normal versions, there are some nice upgrades and its good practice for the heroic, and you need to run em all in order to start with anyways. Then go to the heroic versions, bring friends with for your first few runs on the heroic versions though, some of the pulls are a real pain in the ass, especially for a newer tank. I like them because they are challenging, and you get good practice on picking up complicated packs of mobs. Good luck!

Zalvered
09-05-2010, 03:46 PM
The armory updated my character. I made alot of progress today, and spent a bit of money. I am respeccing right now to Raij's suggestion.

Good idea on ToC regular, I am gonna go do that right now.

I got to defense rating 542, I know it is a little high, but I figured I would be replacing so much equipment in the next week I will fine tune it as I go.

We are going to run FoS, PoS and HoR tonight hopefully. Like you suggested, I want to run them with friends first, that way I am not rushed and can learn the right way.

I can understand running as dps, it makes sense. I just don't like dps, so I will just struggle through as a lowb tank.

Thanks again,

mistrale
09-05-2010, 07:06 PM
get omen. i found it helped me for a couple of reasons. first, it helps you identify who to vig. second, i kind of play a game where i see what is the maximum TPS i can sustain with my rotation.

as for AOE threat, the basic rotation is well established. what i try and do is Heroic throw the caster and charge another mob. that way two are already engaged at the pull. once they are on you, thunderclap, (shockwave if your rage is good), tab target and slam away. there are also easy pulls and hard pulls. for me, hard pulls, i will make sure to just remind the group to give me a few seconds t ogather them up first. e.g. the caster pulls in FOS. and the ramp pulls in POS. and of course all the waves in HOR. gear no doubt helps, but i wont say its a huge diff. i.e i didnt really find any issue in AOE threat going from a 4k GS to a 5k GS. all it meant wsa i could pull more mobs.

Zalvered
09-05-2010, 08:51 PM
I have Omen, I agree, I use it for vig target as well. I have been doing much better this evening. I am not losing threat much at all anymore. Respec probably helped, but tab ss and some dps that wait for thunderclap is probably the biggest difference. I find I do much better with rdps in the group, mdps tend to throw in early, especially pallys with consecrate, that screws me up pretty good. I don't see a way to do it better, so I just ask them to wait for thunderclap for consecrate. I know my rotation is not their yet, but I am working on it.

mistrale
09-06-2010, 12:42 AM
the other thing you can do.. once you get familiar with all the dungeons... is chain pull. that gives you a few seconds alone time with the mobs whilst the dps are still killing off the last one.

Zalvered
09-06-2010, 05:20 AM
I am unsure what "chain pull" is. From you comment it sounds simple. Once mobs are all almost dead I just bail on the combat and go to the next group?

mistrale
09-06-2010, 10:14 AM
yes thats what i mean. when mob is down to around 20-30 percent and u sure u wont lose aggro by leaving him.

Arman
09-06-2010, 10:32 AM
Personally, I am not a big fan of the AoE spec listed above. The now-traditional Deep Wounds spec would be better IMO. Also, you might want to change out Glyph of Blocking for Glyph of Sunder Armor regardless of spec. Your Devastates will apply a Sunder Armor to a nearby mob. As long as you are switching targets with some frequency in AoE packs you should be able to have at least one sunder on all mobs helping to keep threat on you. The only problem with using this glyph combo is that you will drain rage much faster so you will need to chain pull to keep rage up.

Raij
09-06-2010, 12:14 PM
How would a traditional Deep Wounds spec help him with threat in heroics, where all he is encountering is trash and 30 second bosses?

uglybbtoo
09-06-2010, 07:39 PM
Okay I am assuming you were mucking around and have logged out dual weilding weapons and weren't really trying to tank like that without a shield :=)

My advice from experience with low and high geared warrior tanks

1.) Ignore AOE spec its pretty much useless at low levels because your hit is 100 or less and your expertise is 10. So many attacks are going to be missed or parried its all pretty horrid you are going to loose off mobs to anyone aoe'ing and you cant afford to waste valuable HP and armour gemming or chanting for hit. Add to that you gimp your single target threat which is already low at your gear level it all runs downhill fast.

2.) The 15/3/53 deep wounds spec is the way to go at low levels and you will probably find even at higher gear levels once you get comfy with it you wont go back. Every crit from your moves puts a nice dot on mobs and you took 3/3 incite to increase the crit chance of thunderclap and cleave.

Later on you will find you don't even bother cleaving in heroics you just charge in thunderclap, spell reflect and/or heroic toss casters .. position them and shockwave. Whack a couple with shield bash/revenge and devastate and move on cause it's all dead.

And raij exactly as you pointed out by your own arguement why would you bother with AOE spec when the trash will be dead in 30 seconds half the time it doesn't even come out of shockwave stun. So you have some retarded AOE spec trying to hold a boss with massive dps behind you good luck with that.

Zalvered
09-06-2010, 08:06 PM
lol, I never was trying to tank without a shield, either you misunderstood, or I misguided you. :)

I don't know enough to agree or disagree with anyone on here. Hence the post, but your post might actually be the answer to a question I was logging on to ask.

I am fine 99% of the time on trash pulls, barring early dps or a heal while I charge in I have no issues with the trash. Silence causes a little fus because I lack thunderclap, but that is it.

On the bosses, I am seeing something that bothers me. I have Omen, and will be spamming SS, revenge and devistate. Omen is telling me that no one is over 50% threat, but the boss keeps turning really fast and throwing a spell or something out at others in the group. The boss always flips right back to me, but I have not figured out what to do about this. Not all of them do this, but a few do. I plan to check it out tomorrow on my own by reading up on some of the bosses I have in question in the hopes it is not me, but I doubt that will be the case. :(

I will also read up on the deep wounds spec. If it helps me with the boss issue I am having, I would gladly change. In fact I might just give it a try either way, respeccing in easy so what can it hurt really. I will say the AOE spec has been great on the trash. So the question is, can I hold the trash mobs without it? I will have to find that out tomorrow.

Thanks,

uglybbtoo
09-06-2010, 08:20 PM
Then you don't have an issue :-)

Alot of bosses have special attacks that are directed at people other than the tank ^_^ which I suspect is what you are seeing.

Take the first boss in UK he targets someone randomly and ice blocks them. There are alot that do it :=)

Raij
09-06-2010, 08:52 PM
My point was the majority of the instance is spent pulling trash not fighting bosses, so you are trying to hold threat on multiple mobs with lesser gear, whereas the boss is hardly the issues because in lesser gear our single target TPS can still be competitive.

AoE tanking in less than competitive gear is the challenge, not single target, which is where an AoE spec would be far handier than some single target raid TPS spec for heroics, which is what he specifically asked for.

uglybbtoo
09-06-2010, 09:15 PM
Not having a go at you or anything raij but you are geared and trying to put stuff in perspective have you levelled a warrior lately and hit the cross realm heroics undergeared?

I have just levelled my 2nd warrior tank its bloody horrible in cross realm seems dps there only comes if 2 forms retardly bad (<2K) or retardly good (6K+).

What I find is with the packs the melee ret pallys,dk's etc can basically tank all the packs anyhow losing agro to them is not an issue and in alot of cases they know and expect to deal with it. Really you just need to protect the range.

The real issues comes on the bosses those fights can be like 20-30 seconds but only if you can keep agro so the dps can unload.

Having just done the gear up again on another toon I can honestly say I can't see that any AOE spec will help or work with heroics in x-realm.

Raij
09-06-2010, 09:17 PM
I know what it's like to have retarded DPS go at my mobs. Try having 5 Shadowmournes in a raid and no tricks! But no, I do see your point, I'm just saying, realistically we have more tools at our disposal to keep one mob on us than to keep many, and I know if I were him I'd probably have more problems with AoE threat. If he is having problems with single target, by all means use a single target build. I know I can't afford to keep an AoE build out of my two.