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View Full Version : Warrior Heroics are painful...



Grumgore
08-30-2010, 09:39 AM
Hi, I have a Prot warrior and have been tanking my way through WoW. I recently hit 80 last week and have been spending my time gearing up. Just before I hit 80 I did some rep and titansteel farming so I could have some decent gear for when I leveled. To learn the WOTLK instances I would run them as Fury first to get a feel for the dungeon and then jump in as a tank. I have had no issues with threat throughout my entire tanking career up until now. My gear seemed decent enough to tank heroics so I gave it a shot. What I've learned is I have a hard time keeping aggro. I don't know if it's something I'm doing incorrectly or maybe I'm geared improperly? Maybe it's overzealous dps?

Here is my armory, http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Garrosh&cn=Grumgore, feel free to take a look. Like I said I just recently hit 80 so I'm trying to gear myself as best as I can. I don't think it is my rotation but I could be wrong. Here is what I do. I charge in and Thunder Clap, then back off a little and Shock Wave, then Thunder Clap again. I'll pop Shield Block and start to Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate all while queuing Cleave. I will also pop Demo Shout and continue to Thunder Clap/Cleave as they become available.

If there are casters I will charge one and Shield Bash to silence then use Thunderclap and shockwave. At this point I will Heroic Throw the second caster to bring it into the group and Thunder Clap while Cleaving. Even after all this the dps can peel mobs off me. I keep Recount and Omen running and will use Vigilance on the highest threat generator/dpser. I feel like I have thrown everything I have mobs and they still break away at times. The only thing I can think of is my Hit Rating and Expertise Rating are low. Could that be it?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am starting to get discouraged with tanking instances.

Thanks in advance. ;)

zuke8675309
08-30-2010, 10:08 AM
I've been leveling and now gearing a new prot warrior just like you. Mine is similarly geared as well.

I'm not having too much trouble holding aggro (although it does happen once in a while) so I'm guessing it's not your gear. It might be overanxious dps. You're always going to have some problem with casters because you have to group them up and then put threat on them. Meanwhile the dps opened up while you were just grouping everyone together. Unlike a DK, you can't deathgriptaunt that stray caster to you and make it stick.

However, I'm guessing a slight change in style and abilities used will help you some. First of all when tanking heroics your job isn't so much to mitigate damage as it is to build threat quickly. As long as you don't take too large of a pull, your healer can keep you alive. Forget about demo shout until you have solid aggro going. Revenge is your biggest aggro ability. Give it higher priority than anything else. For multi-mob packs, I charge (or heroic throw if situation calls for it), Thunder Clap, Shockwave, and then Revenge and Cleave as they are available while using Thunder Clap on cooldown. I don't use Devastate on AOE packs and only use Shield Slam if I can't Revenge or Thunder Clap. Also, don't be afraid to target switch. I frequently tab-target to build more threat on whoever I have the lowest threat on. I almost always have one eye on Omen the whole time.

Also - another trick... pull fast. If you pull fast chances are dps is still looting the last dead mobs and hasn't caught up. This gives you precious time to build aggro.

Last tip - get the addon Tidy Plates and the plugin Tidy Plates: Threat Plates. I consider it a must have for tanking. It does nameplates with aggro indicators on them. When you're tanking - all nameplates that are small and green are ones you have aggro on; medium size and yellow are ones you're in danger of losing, and big and red are ones that someone else has aggro on. Totally awesome addon for tanking.

sifuedition
08-30-2010, 11:17 AM
I've been leveling and now gearing a new prot warrior just like you. Mine is similarly geared as well.

I'm not having too much trouble holding aggro (although it does happen once in a while) so I'm guessing it's not your gear. It might be overanxious dps. You're always going to have some problem with casters because you have to group them up and then put threat on them. Meanwhile the dps opened up while you were just grouping everyone together. Unlike a DK, you can't deathgriptaunt that stray caster to you and make it stick.

However, I'm guessing a slight change in style and abilities used will help you some. First of all when tanking heroics your job isn't so much to mitigate damage as it is to build threat quickly. As long as you don't take too large of a pull, your healer can keep you alive. Forget about demo shout until you have solid aggro going. Revenge is your biggest aggro ability. Give it higher priority than anything else. For multi-mob packs, I charge (or heroic throw if situation calls for it), Thunder Clap, Shockwave, and then Revenge and Cleave as they are available while using Thunder Clap on cooldown. I don't use Devastate on AOE packs and only use Shield Slam if I can't Revenge or Thunder Clap. Also, don't be afraid to target switch. I frequently tab-target to build more threat on whoever I have the lowest threat on. I almost always have one eye on Omen the whole time.

Also - another trick... pull fast. If you pull fast chances are dps is still looting the last dead mobs and hasn't caught up. This gives you precious time to build aggro.

Last tip - get the addon Tidy Plates and the plugin Tidy Plates: Threat Plates. I consider it a must have for tanking. It does nameplates with aggro indicators on them. When you're tanking - all nameplates that are small and green are ones you have aggro on; medium size and yellow are ones you're in danger of losing, and big and red are ones that someone else has aggro on. Totally awesome addon for tanking.

I agree with most of this. Big differnce though...shield slam is highest threat, revenge is highest damage. Shield slam is also highest priority because of sword and board. If you SS first, your revenge may give you a free SS right after. I also only TC if a mob does not have the rebuff and I don't have threat issues. The key is tab target and your on next swing abilities. You need to manually control those as rage allows but as long as you have rage, use it. I charge, TC, shield slam+cleave, tab, revenge+cleave and check rage. If rage is decent, shockwave and continue. I tab after every single gcd. I can hold double pulls as long as the dps isn't a well played ICC 25 geared dps. Single pack pulls, I can hold against them usually (assuming they are well played, I.e. TotT and MD, etc). This is just in triumph gear and heroic drops.

Grumgore
08-30-2010, 11:28 AM
Thanks for the quick response Zuke. I'm going to have to agree with you on the dps part. I do try to move quickly to give myself those few moments to build aggro but sometimes you’re right, they just aoe nuke immediately.

I also have tidy plates and the plugin threat plates but I must not have it setup right because they are either big when I don't have aggro or small when I do but being able to see different colors and sizes would be a huge help. I'll take another look at it and try to get it setup correctly.

The more I think about it too I realize I have been having the most trouble when dps aoes immediately and doesn't give me those few seconds to establish aggro. I'm just thinking back to last night’s experiences.

Anyway thanks for the feedback. I'm going to keep at it until I get it right. Like I said I haven't had any issues from 1-80 until I hit heroics and I've been using the same threat building rotation. Just out of curiosity what is your expertise and hit rating?

Thanks

sacredgoat
08-30-2010, 11:42 AM
Zuke had a lot of good suggestions. Somthing i've done is macro my shield slam and shield block together. That way everytime i shield slam and shield block is off cooldown its always used and you don't have to worry about pushing another buttons. my macro is something like
#showtooltip Shield Slam
/cast Shield block
/cast Shield Slam

When i charge in i always have Cleave rdy 2 go that way you hit 3 targets and TC at the same time. Then shockwave. In a group TC>Shockwave>Shield Slam>Revenge>Devastate*highest threat order* ... Cleave up 100% of the time. Forget about Demo, its a wasted cooldown save it for raiding once you have a good threat threat lead.

Tip2 : i macro'd my taunt and heroic Throw together. I hate how our taunt has no damage. you taunt and dps is still nuking that target. Of course its gonna turn right around b4 it gets back 2 you. That way it gives a better chance at comming back 2 you.
#showtooltip Taunt
/cast taunt
/cast Heroic Throw

Tip3: Getting ahead of crazy dps is the key 2 staying a head of them. When you have 1 mob left from a group, do a Concussion Blow and start bolting 2 the next group. I try and time it so that i get at least a Thunder Clap and a Shockwave in b4 the dps start up on my group. That much of a lead makes it much harder for them 2 pull from ya.

That is all i can think of atm ... that is some of what i do, hope it helps.

Grumgore
08-30-2010, 11:58 AM
Thanks Scaredgoat, those are some nice macros that I'm going to try out when I get the chance. Seems like you and sifuedition are in agreement on demo shout too. I'm going to try out all these great suggestions tonight so hopefully things go better this time around. Thanks again guys for all the info.

zuke8675309
08-30-2010, 02:03 PM
sifuedition

Thanks, I learned something I didn't know. (most of my experience is tanking on a DK so I'm still learning a warrior).

Raiju
08-30-2010, 04:50 PM
Macroing taunt and Heroic Throw to one button seems a bit weird to me, I use Heroic throw where it is needed, like to pull a caster or if I'm about to tank a boss I use it while pulling to get a bit more agro on those crucial first seconds. Sure Taunt doesn't do damage but it gives you the same threat as the dps who had agro, really who cares if it doesn't do damage. If you macro it to taunt sometimes when you will really need Heroic Throw you will have wasted it where you didn't really need it.

Shield block and shield slam together looks more useful, but even if I keep shield block almost on cd I would rather have control over it, so for example I can use it when taunting from the other tank or something.

To the OP: Sometimes there is nothing you can do, if the DPS has very good gear and doesn't feel like helping you he will keep pulling from you no matter what you do. I see you have the T9 2pc bonus, make use of it, you will have to taunt frequently. Good news is that it's very easy to get good gear now, and with better gear heroics will be a joke to you.

Kurtosis
08-30-2010, 11:19 PM
@Grum - Heroics are painful for a new 80 because the dungeon finder will queue you as a tank as low as ~2800 gear score, even there are 5000+ gear score mains (and badge farming alts) just farming their daily Frost badges.

The good news is, they'll kill everything before they're in danger of dying anyway, so you don't have to fret too much about losing aggro. Just cc the mobs that get away from you as best you can to buy more time for the dps to kill it b/f it gets in melee range (Conc Blow, Shockwave, Charge, Intercept, etc.).

The other good news is, most of them are happy to finally get a tank, any tank. If you just spam a macro at the beginning saying 'hi all, just hit 80, probably undergeared relative to most of you, apologies in advance if I lose aggro b/c of that'. They'll be cool with it, and glad for the heads up.

And there is plenty of purchasable and crafted epics you can use to get your gear score up above 5000, but that's quite expensive. The ilvl 245 White Knight chestpiece, and one other 245 crafted piece I'm forgetting are probably cheap now. The 232, 226, and 219 lvl gear from the Conquest, Valor, and Heroism badge vendors.

I'm sure there's a list somewhere around here.

PS - I wouldn't get into a habit of macro'ing Heroic Throw to Taunt. It may help now, but when you're equally geared with the dps Taunt works fine and it just wastes a HT you might need for a caster.

mistrale
08-31-2010, 12:48 AM
one other thing you can consider, is dropping the glyph of blocking and replacing it with shockwave glyph.

Gromblee
08-31-2010, 02:08 AM
Having a Warrior tank and a Pally tank my experience would say your DPS are hitting the mob group and splintering them. This is only bad if they are not rocking about a 5K gearscore and will have the mobs dead before they get hit. Many people get sloppy when running heroic's while overgeared. My pally is my main atm and has about 4.2K gearscore and have had many casters when they open up full force rip mobs off of me like I was not even there, if they wait the 2-3 seconds for me to fully gain aggro they will not pull off of me regardless of what they throw out. You are prolly just fine and when you get more gear will do much better. Hint the speed runs at hero's I do can be like 10 min a hero but you must have a well oiled group to move that fast. Good luck as a tank new to hero's I hope all the tank gear drops for you while you wait for badges to pile up.

Airowird
08-31-2010, 02:24 AM
1) Glyphs are fine really
2) Gear needs work ofcourse, a Titanium Plating and a new trinket would be nice. Remember that Shield Block value is reflective damage and threat, so don't be too afraid of it in heroics.
3) On 3+ mobs: Shockwave > Thunderclap > Revenge > Shield Slam > Devastate as a general priority

A good opening pull on a group with two casters:
1) Heroic Throw Caster 1, Charge Caster 2
2) Thunderclap once all mobs are in range, then Shockwave
3) You should be able to Revenge, followed by a Shield Slam
4) Thunderclap again, pop Shield Block once Shockwave wears off, start rotating TC & Revenge on their cooldown, use Shield Slam & Devastate in between.
5) Use an addon with Threat Meters as well. Personally, I use Skada, which can show me Damage Done outside of combat, but switches to a Threat meter once I pull, allowing you to see what you need, when you need it all in a single addon.

Important: If you Shockwave first at the charge, you will most likely not be able to Revenge the first few seconds and will need Bloodrage to keep up the threat flowing. That is why at the pull you should TC first, all the other times, Shockwave is better threat.

Malefactor
08-31-2010, 08:21 AM
I am geared very similar to you as a relatively fresh 80.

I think you have some overzealous DPS. I generally only have threat issues if they jump the gun or are very geared. Are you tabbing targets? I'll usually tag each one while spamming cleave and my rotation then focus on the mob they are DPSing with heroic strikes instead of spamming cleave. I don't even bother with demo. Maybe you are losing some threat there with the GCD. Healer's should not be that stressed with your health pool and if you are def capped.

sacredgoat
09-01-2010, 10:25 AM
Macroing taunt and Heroic Throw to one button seems a bit weird to me, I use Heroic throw where it is needed, like to pull a caster or if I'm about to tank a boss I use it while pulling to get a bit more agro on those crucial first seconds. Sure Taunt doesn't do damage but it gives you the same threat as the dps who had agro, really who cares if it doesn't do damage. If you macro it to taunt sometimes when you will really need Heroic Throw you will have wasted it where you didn't really need it.

Shield block and shield slam together looks more useful, but even if I keep shield block almost on cd I would rather have control over it, so for example I can use it when taunting from the other tank or something.

The point of macroing Taunt and Heroic Throw together is because of this: 95% of the time when ranged dps start dps'n a target they keep dps'n till its dead regaurdless of if they have aggro or not. So now the mob is halfway 2 them and you can't do any dps on them. you taunt but many times b4 it even gets back 2 your dps have aggro again cuz they keep dps'n it and you can't atm. The Heroic Throw just gives you a tiny head start so at least the mob makes it back 2 you so you can dps it some more.

As for Macroing Shield Slam and Shield Block: I find in the end, it doesn't really matter in most cases. It is just 1 less button i have 2 remember 2 push every 45 secs or so because most of the time, ppl will always try to use it for the perfect "spot" when they could have used it 2 or 3 times b4 that to increase/reduce damage.

These are just a couple of things that i use most of the time. If i know that i'm going 2 be needing a HT or a SB on something specific, of course i have the normal spells on my bars so i can use it for just that. But most of the time i find that i use the macro's far more then just the ability/spell itself by its self

Raiju
09-01-2010, 05:20 PM
Sacredgoat, sure but for me I just find that I'm using Heroic Throw a lot, and am really looking forward to the lower cd we will have on it in cata (at least on the beta it is that way). And I think if someone is starting with heroics it's really useful. I'm thinking for example of the trash pulls on FoS, PoS and the waves on HoR. All have multiple casters that need to be pulled and if someone gets used to just macroing Heroic Throw to taunt and forgetting about it, that warrior looses a lot of utility.

mistrale
09-01-2010, 07:38 PM
With overzealous dps I'll try and move to next pack before the earlier pull are dead. This gives you a few precious seconds alone time.