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View Full Version : Rogue Assassination - Haste vs Attack Power



Frostglaive
08-28-2010, 06:08 PM
So a widely argued thing among Mutilate rogues: Haste or AP? Both are the rogue's bread and butter, but which one is truly the most desired stat? Haste increases the chance to apply poisons and gives you more melee attacks. Attack power increases melee damage upon each swing(or stab in this case). I personally favor AP and place 20 AP and 10 haste gems within yellow slots. My question is, is that the best choice?

I see many rogues merely stack haste anywhere they can. I can see that increasing poison applications, but unless you're really well geared it won't do much since you have no bonus AP. I also see rogues put pure AP in red, pure haste in yellow. This could be a step up from merely going haste only, but is it better?

What do you guys think?

Lumines
08-29-2010, 01:00 AM
You can go back and forth with opinions until the cows come home, but I think the correct answer will always be "use a spreadsheet and see which is better for your character" :)

Frostglaive
08-29-2010, 01:11 AM
Lol, I have yet to go over spreadsheets sadly. I am more of a person who likes to meet things in the middle: Meet up halfway where math is, and half way where mere words and thoughts come in. I suppose I made this thread to get other rogue's perspectives on the stats and to see if I myself agree with it, and if I am going in the right direction.

Airowird
08-29-2010, 02:13 AM
If you really can't bother with using a spreadsheet, go orange AP/Haste in everything I guess.
The stat requirements can vary a LOT depending on your current gear, so you won't get a clear answer here except "my gear requires X" or "use spreadsheet Y".
There really is no clear cut answer others can simply tell you without looking at your char in-depth

Frostglaive
08-29-2010, 04:40 AM
If you really can't bother with using a spreadsheet, go orange AP/Haste in everything I guess.
The stat requirements can vary a LOT depending on your current gear, so you won't get a clear answer here except "my gear requires X" or "use spreadsheet Y".
There really is no clear cut answer others can simply tell you without looking at your char in-depth

Well the reason I ask is I see people with generally a high gear score go all haste... yet I've seen others with the same gear score do what I do: Red= 40 AP Yellow= +20 Haste +20 AP.

Krays
08-29-2010, 09:19 AM
Well the reason I ask is I see people with generally a high gear score go all haste... yet I've seen others with the same gear score do what I do: Red= 40 AP Yellow= +20 Haste +20 AP.

I assume some point 1 haste gem is probably equal dps to 1 attack power gem (who knows when), so it becomes personal pref i guess. Also im willing to bet all the rogues you saw haste gemmed has TaIj , making haste even more helpful. Personally I would gem full attack power, with a couple of starks in yellow if the socket bonus had more than 4 agi. Haste woks on a % so the more you have the more you need to get the speed of your weapon down, so it really needs alot of checking if you go down haste route, and need to take in to account speed pots and bloodlust, idealy you want max benefit from those things.

Also more attack power makes evenom (spelling not right) hit harder ,and all other poison attacks hit harder, common sense tells me attack power is better, but im sure the people you see all gemmed haste had there reasons.

Martie
08-29-2010, 10:01 AM
It's relatively simple.
Attack power increases your dps by a set amount. Haste increases a portion of your dps by a percentage.
So the better your gear gets, the better haste becomes. I haven't run any numbers on it yet (I will once my rogue hits 80 and has some gear), but I think that the breaking point can be reached.

Zxian
08-29-2010, 06:11 PM
I assume some point 1 haste gem is probably equal dps to 1 attack power gem (who knows when), so it becomes personal pref i guess.

It has nothing to do with personal preference. It has to do with math. :P

The spreadsheets and iDPS do the calculations to figure out which is better for you. There is a definitive answer, but it depends on what gear you have, and how much of all the other stats you have as well.

The argument for Taiaj is invalid as well too, if you think about it. Yes, haste will mean that you stack motes faster, but the released mote will do less damage if you have less AP.

There is a fine balance between haste (which leads to more melee swings and poison procs) and AP (which means white swings and poisons do more damage). If you have a lot of AP, and your damage output is high, you want more haste to cause the damage to happen more often. If you have a lot of haste, you'll want more AP so that your frequent swings do more damage. The more you have of a particular stat, the better other stats become (this statement is true of most combat stats... except expertise and ArP).

If you're in full 251+ gear and too lazy to actually check the sheets, just go for Stark Ametrines in all your sockets.

Krays
08-30-2010, 05:22 AM
It has nothing to do with personal preference. It has to do with math. :P

The spreadsheets and iDPS do the calculations to figure out which is better for you. There is a definitive answer, but it depends on what gear you have, and how much of all the other stats you have as well.

The argument for Taiaj is invalid as well too, if you think about it. Yes, haste will mean that you stack motes faster, but the released mote will do less damage if you have less AP.

There is a fine balance between haste (which leads to more melee swings and poison procs) and AP (which means white swings and poisons do more damage). If you have a lot of AP, and your damage output is high, you want more haste to cause the damage to happen more often. If you have a lot of haste, you'll want more AP so that your frequent swings do more damage. The more you have of a particular stat, the better other stats become (this statement is true of most combat stats... except expertise and ArP).

If you're in full 251+ gear and too lazy to actually check the sheets, just go for Stark Ametrines in all your sockets.

It is personal pref, if you dont look at spreadsheets :P i just meant that was one of the reason why OP saw different rogues with different gems but same gear.

I have used 5 different spreadsheets and each one will have different maths, as they give different recommendation, and they always coming out with new versions meaning they aint perfect, not even close ( what i mean by not perfect is by that is when you start adding in all your trinkets, enchants, and what not they become less accurate imo, the basic maths im sure is perfect).

So when you see different rogues with different gems who had similar gear, its personal pref, not maths, they either used different spreadsheets or one of them didnt, the one who didnt doest automatically mean his is wrong at all.

The thing you said about TaIJ, you have a point that i didn't consider when i wrote it, but then you contradict your above comment, in that there will be a mathematical point where haste becomes better for the TaIJ, than attack power :P

PS, I hope i didn't come across as i hate spreadsheets and stopped using them. I do still use them, but find it tiring to check with all 5, so i do it less often now. When i do use them what i do, is try to find something all the ss told me to, and then do that, but then take with a grain of salt all the discrepancy.

Mallekai
08-30-2010, 08:35 AM
It is personal pref, if you dont look at spreadsheets :P i just meant that was one of the reason why OP saw different rogues with different gems but same gear.

I have used 5 different spreadsheets and each one will have different maths, as they give different recommendation, and they always coming out with new versions meaning they aint perfect, not even close ( what i mean by not perfect is by that is when you start adding in all your trinkets, enchants, and what not they become less accurate imo, the basic maths im sure is perfect).

So when you see different rogues with different gems who had similar gear, its personal pref, not maths, they either used different spreadsheets or one of them didnt, the one who didnt doest automatically mean his is wrong at all.

The thing you said about TaIJ, you have a point that i didn't consider when i wrote it, but then you contradict your above comment, in that there will be a mathematical point where haste becomes better for the TaIJ, than attack power :P

PS, I hope i didn't come across as i hate spreadsheets and stopped using them. I do still use them, but find it tiring to check with all 5, so i do it less often now. When i do use them what i do, is try to find something all the ss told me to, and then do that, but then take with a grain of salt all the discrepancy.


aldrianas and idps are widely considered the most accurate simulation tools. no, they are not perfect. but its the best you can get

as for different rogues gemming different things in the same gear.
it could be a number of things. maybe one of the rogues is wrong. maybe he saw pinch gemming heavy haste, and thought that was the way to go. maybe for that gear set haste and ap are so close that it does come down to preference.

you cant come to a forum and say "guys, what do you think i should gem? oh and btw, i dont use/like spreadsheets, please dont mention them"
because the answer will always be the same. we cant tell you, use a spreadsheet

Frostglaive
08-30-2010, 09:36 AM
Thing is, when I said "I don't use spreadsheets." It was for a reason. Although these suckers are helpful and used to keep you on track, they generally make me go oh rly? I had a few tell me to go all straight AP and completely ignore the gem bonus and the meta requirement all together.... so let me just bring up another thing since I feel you all really hate me for not looking at these spread sheets.... is wow rawr or w/e good for this sort of deal?

Frostglaive
08-30-2010, 11:14 AM
Sorry for double posting but I'm wondering.... I am using the Mutilate Spreadsheet from Elitist Jerks. From what I know it is up to date, and has nice results from optimizing dps. Now here is my question: I put in everything it needed to know and it shows everything as being fine. But it says for me to take my yellow, blue, and red slot and fill it all the way up for 40 AP gems. This is a problem though.... for I have a 68 AP Dragons eye gem in the red, a 20 AP + 10 Haste gem in the yellow, and the 10 stats in blue. This not only gives me +8 agility but also fulfills my meta bonus so.... what's wrong with that? Not to mention it's telling me to downgrade my dragons eye gems to 40 AP red gems.

Zxian
08-30-2010, 04:40 PM
The tools aren't going to do all the work for you. The spreadsheet does a piece by piece calculation when it gives the recommendation of matching socket bonuses. Since blue gems suck for melee DPS, it's obviously going to tell you to ignore each of them.

Yes, you still need to make sure you're activating your meta. The simple rule still applies - take your best blue socket bonus and put the nightmare tear there. The blue socket in Ikfirus' Sack of Wonder is a good choice (not really going to find anything better than 8agi in current content). JC gems should simply replace your standard epic gem in any given socket (28AP here is the same as 28AP there).

Rawr is terrible. Nobody has updated the math behind it for at least two content patches (and therefore it doesn't take into account the huge poison buffs we got in 3.3, rupture changes, etc etc).


Don't take this following part personally. It's somewhat of a blanket statement.


It's not that we hate you, per se. :P I find it frustrating to see other rogues (sometimes it's been me) on my server who clearly haven't done their homework, and still manage to get priority spots in progression raids over more knowledgable players, simply because of gear/seniority/favoritism/etc. If you're going to ask the question of 'how can I maximize my DPS?" or "how can I best help my raid?", then you should be willing to find the right tools to do so. If that means learning how to use something such as iDPS or Ald's spreadsheet, then do that.

Frostglaive
08-30-2010, 05:04 PM
Haha, I figured as much thanks for confirming that much for me. And I understand your frustration. Believe me I've done my homework, just ways other then spreadsheets. Well let me ask this at least: If it tells me to gem pure haste in yellow once my gear upgrades, should I trust it unlike the prior comment about the stupid gem change it told me to do?

Zxian
08-31-2010, 12:57 AM
The spreadsheet will give you a recommendation about what to socket where. However, if the EP of haste is ever above 2.0 (you can see this at the top right of the Gear tab), it will tell you to replace all of your AP gems with haste. If you go ahead and do this in the sheet when the EP is only 2.0-2.05, you'll probably see it dip back down below 2.0, making AP the better choice again. (This goes back to what I said about the more of one stat you have, the better others get)

There's also the question of how much of a DPS increase are you going to get. For my gear, swapping gems out to reach 'optimal' levels (i.e. haste having an EP of exactly 2.0) usually only results in a ~10-15DPS increase. If you're willing to cash out for the gems, go for it. Otherwise, as long as your haste EP is somewhere around 2.0, Stark Ametrines are a pretty safe bet.

Frostglaive
08-31-2010, 09:14 AM
Thank you for the info, hopefully I don't get too confused. Math has never been one of my best subjects, but I believe I got the grasp on all of this :)

EDIT: This is slightly off-topic, but I was looking over something. Currently I have the Flexweave Underlay for my cloak enchant. My reasoning is because inside and outside raid I find myself using the parachute, and it gives me +1 more agility then the regular agility enchant. My question is: I know all the EP values and understand 23 haste to cloak is better for pve. But overall, do you think me losing a parachute is a slight downgrade or... what?

Zxian
08-31-2010, 11:34 AM
Plug it in for yourself. The option is right in the spreadsheet. ;)

Frostglaive
08-31-2010, 12:02 PM
Lol I did, it told me to go along with it but I was unsure if it was being stupid like with the all AP in the chest, or if it was legit.

Zxian
08-31-2010, 12:59 PM
Are you just trying to plug in what the recommended values are? or are you actually inputting what your gear is set to?

Setup the spreadsheet with your gear and enchants/gems. Then replace one gem or enchant at a time (you can just toggle between Flexweave and 23 haste for your cloak). You'll be able to see the theoretical change in your DPS at the top.

Frostglaive
08-31-2010, 01:18 PM
Yeah never really thought of that. I'll give it a go, thanks :P

Zxian
08-31-2010, 06:40 PM
That's kinda the whole point of these simulation tools - to determine what gem/enchant setup is best for your character. The gear you already have will determine what is and isn't an upgrade for you. Using some other set of gear that's already saved in someone elses sheet doesn't really give you any useful information.