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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- End of Expansion Raiding



Ciderhelm
08-24-2010, 05:19 PM
iabxfNvtqUg

Kazeyonoma
08-24-2010, 05:41 PM
good point about taking a raid day out, i've done that with my 10 man group whenever content gets old, and we seem to get buy. our 25 man is coming close to that, but luckily we've been picking up a lot of the disbanded guilds as recruits =P

Pers3us
08-24-2010, 05:41 PM
Some great suggestions I heard from this video! Going to try and bring a couple of them up to the other officers and GM of my guild... see what we can fix to get those last 3 bosses down...

This also reminded me that I haven't bumped my recruitment thread on the realm forums in a while.... which MAY help!

Just a great video overall on how to hopefully down the "Attendance Boss." It's sad that most every guild is dealing with this right now, but it happens during the end of every expansion. My guild has gotten through 2 expansions already, we'll make it 3!

Petninja
08-24-2010, 06:23 PM
The reason you have to add those disclaimers is because you're Ghostcrawler. The secret is out!

Knighterrant81
08-24-2010, 06:47 PM
Burnout has been a problem in our guild for quite some time now.

We cleared every boss in normal 25 ICC, up to the Lich King, sometime in May. We were having a hard time with the Lich King, and it was clear that the quality of our raid nights were slipping. You'd hear more and more people doing what I'd call "leaning on the buff": they'd say things like "oh the buff is coming out next week, we'll get him then". I think this was normally a good attitude when our personnel and our performance was consistent - if you could guarantee that pretty much the same people showed up to raid from week to week and that your performance was consistent, you could guarantee that you'd do better with the buff. However, our performance would stay the same or get worse. And that's where I'm not really sure what happened.

A few of our officers think that we were bringing in more and more "benchwarmers" who really weren't up to the level of our main raid team in for farm bosses, and those said raid team members were sitting out to be polite and/or go do something else. Eventually, you're raiding with your B team and what should be a farm boss becomes a PITA again. This starts a vicious cycle where you're just wiping to farm bosses.

While I'm not sure thats 100% what happened, what *did* happen for sure was that we did not always have the same players when we were doing progression. So there'd be nights where we'd just coast through Valkyr on LK, and the next night they would decimate us. The core group basically got fed up with even trying to complete the normal LK. More and more of our recruits just weren't up to par, and more and more of our core group who still cared enough moved on to greener pastures and now we're down to ICC10 heroic achievements and Ulduar 10 Achievements for mounts and that's about all we do anymore.

The big problem I see is we didn't ask if people wanted to just quit raiding early enough, and that we weren't picky enough with our recruits. Is there a better way to do recruiting, perhaps doing trial runs? How would you fit such trial runs into your raiding schedule?

Kuroryuu
08-24-2010, 07:00 PM
umm..translation on the first part

I happen to be one of those people, who are wondering if its worth the effort to finish the T10 set with cata coming.
I tried reading through the gear talk in beta forums but really understanding all of it.


The reason you have to add those disclaimers is because you're Ghostcrawler. The secret is out!

Shhhh...your not suppose to reveal lore's secret identity.

Kahmal
08-24-2010, 07:25 PM
My guild just cancelled Raids till Cata hoping most of our core will return. 18 shards to go :-(

Recruiting for yet another 11/12 guild isn't going to go anywhere, we get raiders of lower quality due to being pampered by the buff.

Overall I'm just very upset at just how absolutely Blizzard timed everything. I mean where going to have almost a year of ICC. Never seen the pre-expac phase this bad.

Rennadrel
08-24-2010, 09:49 PM
Yeah, the guild I am in isn't confident enough to do 25 HM Halion yet we can one shot 10/12 bosses on heroic in ICC no problem, but we are struggling with heroic Sindragosa and will probably struggle with Arthas. I am not too concerned at this point, I know it will be a hard encounter even after Cataclysm comes out, but getting it done before the expansion would be something special and meaningful. Our guild seems to be doing OK with Shadowmourne as well, one guy is almost done his and we have a recruit coming over from another guild who has one, though that kinda leaves me at the bottom of the totem pole for DPS, and with a few of our other main spec DPS being better geared then me and putting up some better numbers because of it, they will probably be on priority for it before myself. I am not getting too burned out by ICC, we manage as a guild to keep it fun and interesting at times and we have many rofl moments in Vent.

Luinil
08-25-2010, 12:07 AM
/hugs Don't hates me! It's actually "all mimsy were the borogoves".

Bishoptwo
08-25-2010, 01:45 AM
My guild just cancelled Raids till Cata hoping most of our core will return. 18 shards to go :-(

Recruiting for yet another 11/12 guild isn't going to go anywhere, we get raiders of lower quality due to being pampered by the buff.

Overall I'm just very upset at just how absolutely Blizzard timed everything. I mean where going to have almost a year of ICC. Never seen the pre-expac phase this bad.

I dunno Sunwell was pretty rough for those people that didn't kill KJ before the patch hit a month before Wrath release. I'm in that club although our guild did essentially reform itself on Brutallus progression losing the main raid leaders, the officer core, and like 10+ main raiders so the fact that we even killed Muru then got to spend like 10 weeks on KJ was pretty amazing.

But yeah that was really rough at least now if you got 11/12 at 20 percent you have that 10 percent buffer, I would have killed for that in Sunwell. Having to reclear Kalecgos trash while pushing KJ progression was the exact opposite of fun and exciting. At least now if you take a substantial hit you can farm 11/12 with the 30 percent buff. If you lost a couple of BIS geared dps in Sunwell it cost you alot more.

swelt
08-25-2010, 02:37 AM
I like the vid and agree with everything you've said... indeed we've done most of it. What we did in particular was try to set some goals. We decided we were not that interested in doing the Heroic Lich King in 25 man, but that we were up for doing Glory of the ICC Raider. We are also experimenting with mixing in some alts, or mixing in some Ulduar fun raids (we didn't do a bunch of the hard modes in 25 man the first time around, and the iron drakes are pretty).

But I think you missed the elephant in the room. If Cataclysm were released in 4 months, that would make a full YEAR in which the only new raid content released was Halion. I feel that Blizzard has really dropped the ball on the scheduling this time around. There was room for another 'season' (pve and pvp).

Infusion101
08-25-2010, 04:59 AM
That must be one of your most epic intros , yet i dont understand shit of what you said O.o

Yggdrasil
08-25-2010, 05:00 AM
Just a personal opinion but I feel they used the release of SC2 this go around as the buffer. In both vanilla and BC you had relatively fresh content at the end of each expansion that only the hardest of the hardcore had milked weekly for cheese. This one about the time those dropped (well a tad later) for the previous expansions you had SC2. I mean I understand they didn't want one product to be in competition with another and don't get me wrong it works for me because I love both games. I also understand they want everyone to kill every boss and all that stuff (disagree with it or not it seems to be a goal). But for those that aren't into SC2 (or refuse to try it as I like to put it!! :D) are kind of left out in the dark grinding what they have grinded for a really really.. really long time. Kind of unfortunate in my opinion.

Alamire
08-25-2010, 05:31 AM
Heh! While Lore's hands and arms rarely make it in to shot, it's funny to watch the reflection of them in the Ghost poster.

swills
08-25-2010, 06:34 AM
I agree with those expressing dissasitisfaction with the time between ICC and Cata. It is actually really, really bad. Way worse than in Classic or TBC.

Classic Naxx came out in June 2006. TBC came out just after Xmas so a six-seven month wait from the last raid instance.
Sunwell was March 2008. WotLK came out in November 2008 so an eight month wait.
ICC was December 2009. Cataclysm is... definitely not September, almost certainly not October. Maybe Nov again? Dec?

Whatever it is, it's a record setting 11-12 months between raid instances (and no RS doesn't count).

My guild is a 10m guild and we've killed LK HC and just getting people to turn up for raids now is a massive stuggle. I can't imagine what it will be like in another month or two/three month's time. I am surprised more people aren't pissed about this TBH. I know I feel a bit stupid for having given Blizzard $150+ with no significant new content to show for it. Sure they are working on Cata, but they are going to ask us all to pay for that in addition. Where the hell did my last $150 go?

I heard a rumour months back that they would release a re-tooled Molten Core for level 80s. How hard would that be? All the art assets are there. Just update some boss abilities, get some intern to make up some loot (it doesn't matter what it is, it'll be replaced in three months anyway) and Bam, people have something to do again. It would even tie into Cataclysm with the re-emergence of Ragnaros etc.

Infusion101
08-25-2010, 08:06 AM
@ swills , im not THAT bored yet , but i do see your point , i really think the wait time is just to long

Luanmali
08-25-2010, 02:16 PM
Eh... I'm honestly not all that worried about it. Since my guild isn't a heavy raiding/progression guild (dammit >.<;; ) I have to reply on PuGs to get my raiding done... and none of the groups I have been in have even managed to fell 10man Rotface :(( I haven't even tried 25man yet.

So does it effect me all that much that guilds are pretty much slowing down on the end-of-expansion content? No. Because I haven't experienced very much of it, anyway.

Of course, it would be nice if I could find a guild that raided on days -other than- Wed. and Thur., since I have school on those nights...

Consecrate
08-26-2010, 12:19 AM
Something that has worked for us has been to set goals.

We clear all of ICC heroic and Halion in about 3-4 hours. This was getting boring so we decided to spice it up by aiming to get DPS records. This has ment dropping healers (making them respec) so that we have 2-3 for each fight. This combined with thinking of new tactics to increase our dps on bosses has lead to us getting fastest kills on 3 bosses in heroic ICC on worldoflogs This is obviously not for everyone, but it has given us something to aim for, beyond just facerolling for a couple if hours every week.

For those who want to do more, we also run two 4 hour 10/12 heroic pugs. It has been pretty enjoyable to progress the pugs on characters that are not our mains.

Other guilds are doing fun stuff like weekly attempts at Immortality, farming Mimiron's Head or selling raid spots. We sold several 11/12 heroic clears at the 5% buff for hundreds of thousands and still get interest from people wanting to pay for achievements or gear, though this does not fit with our speed kills. This is a great motivator as those who do not need gear still benefit from trning up.

For the guilds who still have progressing left, things are harder and there I'll always be burnout, but personally I have always looked at it like this; If you put the effort in to clear content early, you don't need to raid as often in the long run, puttin that extra bit in to finish your journey means that you can then relax and do other stuff.

Oh and one thing to try and do on top of that is have a decent vent/teamspeak atmosphere, no one wants to raid with antisocial robots...

Bishoptwo
08-26-2010, 02:57 AM
I agree with those expressing dissasitisfaction with the time between ICC and Cata. It is actually really, really bad. Way worse than in Classic or TBC.

Classic Naxx came out in June 2006. TBC came out just after Xmas so a six-seven month wait from the last raid instance.
Sunwell was March 2008. WotLK came out in November 2008 so an eight month wait.
ICC was December 2009. Cataclysm is... definitely not September, almost certainly not October. Maybe Nov again? Dec?

Whatever it is, it's a record setting 11-12 months between raid instances (and no RS doesn't count).



See here's the problem with that there were significantly less people that did Naxx at 60 and Sunwell at 70 compared to anyone and everyone who is in ICC. The only reason it seems worse now is b/c there's more people in the last tier of content to complain about it.

Reasons why it's not as bad now?

- There's no gear check anymore, you don't have to run Shaman #343253 through BT and Hyjal to get their tier.
- 30 percent buff, oh you killed 11/12 at 15 percent but then your guild almost fell apart? Don't worry here's another 15 percent damage and health to help you recover and rebuild your guild.
- You are losing members left and right? There's 1000's of guilds with your same progression poach from them. There has never been this many raiders in the last tier of content to date in WoW history.

Raiding guilds have always faced this and its not always the end of expansions. Middle of Ulduar was semi rough, so was the time between your first Illidan kill and Sunwell where retaining your members and their gear was way more important than it is now.

swills
08-26-2010, 06:14 AM
I think that in terms of lengthening the time the content was relevant, the 30% buff is a massive fail. Yes more people get to run ICC, but the buff makes it really hard to recruit 'good' players now. You can't check by gear, as anyone can faceroll into full 264 gear these days. You can't check by skill either, cos everything up to LK is totally trivial now. Sure you might have players who stand in the fire, but they have 30% extra health and receive 30% extra healing so they are fine.

The buff worked really well in terms of allowing people who weren't good enought to kill Boss X, to actually kill him. It worked great in getting more people to see more content. But it also trivialised the content much sooner than it should have.

It would've been nice if the Heroic Kill achievements were turned off when the buff was active (they would have had to nerf LK though) or just created some sort of incentive for raiders to raid without it. Right now there is zero incentive to do that.

Rennadrel
08-26-2010, 10:55 AM
I agree with those expressing dissasitisfaction with the time between ICC and Cata. It is actually really, really bad. Way worse than in Classic or TBC.

Classic Naxx came out in June 2006. TBC came out just after Xmas so a six-seven month wait from the last raid instance.
Sunwell was March 2008. WotLK came out in November 2008 so an eight month wait.
ICC was December 2009. Cataclysm is... definitely not September, almost certainly not October. Maybe Nov again? Dec?

Whatever it is, it's a record setting 11-12 months between raid instances (and no RS doesn't count).

My guild is a 10m guild and we've killed LK HC and just getting people to turn up for raids now is a massive stuggle. I can't imagine what it will be like in another month or two/three month's time. I am surprised more people aren't pissed about this TBH. I know I feel a bit stupid for having given Blizzard $150+ with no significant new content to show for it. Sure they are working on Cata, but they are going to ask us all to pay for that in addition. Where the hell did my last $150 go?

I heard a rumour months back that they would release a re-tooled Molten Core for level 80s. How hard would that be? All the art assets are there. Just update some boss abilities, get some intern to make up some loot (it doesn't matter what it is, it'll be replaced in three months anyway) and Bam, people have something to do again. It would even tie into Cataclysm with the re-emergence of Ragnaros etc.

A level 80 MC would be awesome, but if it was a 40 man it would be a complete mess, they would have to thin it out to 25 man and remove certain things from the instance. I don't think they would since Ragnaros is coming back in Cataclysm, however I would be open to another raid in Northrend, something that doesn't have to do with dragons though preferably.

I would like to see some incentive for players to go back and do all the dungeon and raid achievements. A true Glory of the Instance achievement for collecting all of the dungeon and raid achievements currently in game, it would be awesome to have a special mount and title just for that and it would give guilds a reason to go raid old content and keep them interested instead of just doing ICC all the time.

MirabellaofVendetta
08-26-2010, 07:17 PM
I just want to thank you for this "Weekly Marmot". It touched on something that is effecting my whole server atm and hit the problem directly on the head. It has also given my guild a shot of adrenaline to be one of the surviving guilds. After posting your video and making it a manditory watch for all raiders. We came up with a game plan and motivated the guild into progressing that night in ICC25 and filling both groups easily the next night. I am hoping that the ideas we implemented continue to energize the guild and want to thank you for bringing this problem to the forefront, hopefully more guilds will take the advice and bring their guilds to survive the end of the expansion.

Fireburnspaper
08-29-2010, 01:56 PM
I'm going to mention this as something for others to think of as well, it's something our guild has done and it's been working out quite well.

Basically we were stuck on the last few HMs in ICC10 (we're a 10 man guild) for about 3 weeks. We were working on Sindy, got a couple really close attempts, but by and large we just weren't cutting it. After analyzing things, it was pretty apparent that a couple people had just kind of given up, a few more were tired of raiding but were at least putting in their 100%, etc.

After some discussion, we decided to take a break from raiding as a guild until Cata hits and those of us who still do want the 10m HM kills and achievements would find pugs looking for the same. My server has had a LOT of people stop raiding. The top two guilds on our faction called it quits, and there have been many other guilds doing the same.

Luckily, we'd made some contacts through doing some other achievement-focused raids, and were able to pool some friends lists and get a 'PUG' pooling from a couple different guilds that have quit raiding, similar to our situation. We went in to ICC10 last night and 3 shot putri HM when the vast majority of us had never really seen the encounter on hardmode.

Basically; calling a break no 'Guild Raids' and instead looking for similar people on the server who had shared goals wound up being a great compromise. The folks who were burnt out could take a break without feeling like they were letting the guild down, and the folks who still wanted to raid are clearing out the last bits quite handily. No friendships lost only new ones forged.

Time will tell what happens once cata hits, but I'm optimistic. At the very least, in the mean time there's no hard feelings, no gquits, and people are a little more free to do what they want.

Just thought I'd share my experiences =)

Best of luck to you all!

12hett
03-07-2012, 01:28 PM
.