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convikt
08-17-2010, 07:45 PM
Ok so ive been doing some raids latly and ive noticed my DPS isn't as high i would think it should be. So far im pulling about 4.9-5k with a roation of BT, WW, slam on procs, HS or Cleave, but when we dont have a warrior tank i put Sunders up. heres the link to me http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...lde&cn=Convikt (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Perenolde&cn=Convikt)

Astameth
08-17-2010, 07:52 PM
Well...
Your mainhand is a Agi-weapon -> Change it to a Str-weapon.
Do not gem Crit/AP. Rather gem Str(/ArP), they provide more DPS.
With your current equip, you do not even reach ArP-softcap -> Gem only for Str until you can at least reach Softcap ( ArP-Procc-Trinket % + Gear(+gems) ArP % = 100% <--- softcap).
You have far too much hit, try to exchange items which provide you hit with such, that provide different things (your second trinket is a hit-trinket, try to exchange it against Needless scorpion or ToC-meleetrinket )
Try to exchange your agi-necklace.

As you exchange those hit-items, maybe you can get some Expertise-items instead. You still lack some expertise ;)

swollenpickles
08-17-2010, 09:04 PM
I'm not a warrior expert but it looks like you're way over the hit cap. Also your expertise seems to be low. Unless warriors are different than other classes (which I doubt) I think you should be aiming for 26 (you're currently at 14).

convikt
08-17-2010, 09:26 PM
so to sum it up. less hit. more expertise and gem diffrently?

Ion
08-17-2010, 10:04 PM
Wow...drop hit...about 500 of it (not kidding...drop about 500 hit), get to 26 expertise....until you can cap out on arp, gem str or str/crit (if it's a yellow str socket bonus).

Also drop some hit.

The axes from HPoS are better than both of your weapons...though the upgrade over the sword is meh. Get at least one of those and put it in your MH.

You should probably drop some hit while you're at it, too.

killik
08-18-2010, 05:41 AM
Basically, what Ion says - you need to swap 500 hit for more useful stats. You could try:

* Drop the Mark of Supremacy for something else - Mirror of Truth from vendor or Darkmoon Card from AH would be better. The +hit on the Mark is almost totally wasted.

* Replace Bloodshed Band with Dexterous Brightstone Ring, also from vendor. A lot of strength gear seems to have this problem of being itemised with hit and stamina instead of better stats.

* The Gatecrasher's Gauntlets from vendor are a lot better than the tier gloves - and have less hit.

* For now, grab some more expertise by gemming. You can put back the Armour Penetration when you get Needle-Encrusted Scorpion.

* Don't gem for attack power over strength. Don't gem for straight crit rating - use an orange gem with strength if you need to get a socket bonus.

* Socket your belt, maybe.

Hope that helps and isn't just a bossy list of commands :)

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 08:42 AM
Well...
Your mainhand is a Agi-weapon -> Change it to a Str-weapon.

Uh... What? Agi/Str Doesn't matter what type of stat is on it (in fact Agility gear usually has more stats on it). MH is for your biggest top-end damage wep. Period (well with that dumb Bryntoll exception). Tyrannical Beheaders might be better, but I'd have to look them up to see, but really, you're looking at stats and top-end damage, if you have an Agi option that has better top-end damage and stats, use it.

***

Meta = +Agi/+Crit Then you only need one blue, which is furnished by the Nightmare's tear (+10 all stats). +X/+Sta is a loss for Fury.

The only 2 easy ways to drop crit are also DPS upgrades, Mirror over Mark and Agi Triumph ring over Str Triumph ring. After that, make sure you don't take gear just becasue it has no hit, but because it's actually better.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 10:59 AM
Ok, im going to talk about things other then gear as i think everyone hit the gear replacements on the head.

1) you are speced into precision. drop that completly, and extend your tallent points into wrath or enrage. that would depend fully on how well ur rage is managed, which i will get to in a minute.

second, your glyphs are off. bloodthurst is a pvp glyph at best. you shoudl have heroic strike in that slot or excute in that slot again depending on ur rage situation. also you should add glyph of battle being you are speced into the buff points.

3) as for your wepons and the stats ur stacking or jemming.. you have to first understand fury is a max dps spec in top gear gear.. it is and has always been under par if your wearing less then the best gear available. the most bennifical stat for you is armor pen.. this over strength and agility right now.the crit jems are not helping you at all . once your over 60% arp from ur gear, you can look to other stats. the only stat that will show you giant dps strides is wepons damage.

last is rage managment. arp gives you a lot more rage gen to work with, if your rage starved even for a second, ur dps is going to suffer. if you feel you have good control over ur rage, make the adjustments listed above accordingly. If not, follow path B. this should provide major dps changes atleast until your in more current gear

Petninja
08-18-2010, 11:05 AM
the most bennifical stat for you is armor pen.. this over strength and agility right now.the crit jems are not helping you at all . once your over 60% arp from ur gear, you can look to stats like agility.

I doubt he's over 60% from gear, and unless he has an ArPen proc trinket that 60% becomes more like 100%. Also, Agi? really? Once arpen is capped you gem strength.

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 11:11 AM
The value of Agility to Str varries, but it's usually only 70-80% as valuable as strength (according to all the playing I've done in Landsoul's). However agility gear is usually better itemized because A) it has more item points than str and B) it tends to have ArP where str, at least pre ICC was more haste-ish.

As a warrior you Gem Str until you can gem to hit the the soft/hard ArP cap, and once past that you gem Str.

Unless you need hit or Exp. Since missed specials = no damage, hit until 164 hit and expertise rating until 26 expertise is more valuable than Str/ArP/everything else.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 11:11 AM
I doubt he's over 60% from gear, and unless he has an ArPen proc trinket that 60% becomes more like 100%. Also, Agi? really? Once arpen is capped you gem strength.

no no, i said once armor pen is over 60% from gear or in other words, when he gets to that point.and the trinket dosnt proc to 100%, unless your base arp is around 65%.. if your at 40% it will bring you closer to 85% during the proc. as for strength vs agility, you would really have to talk to top end fury warriors.. its debated all the time, much like avoidence vs ehp but this case its far more dabatable. ive seen fury warriors in 277 stacking agility and ive seen them stacking strength eaither way the dps cap for fury is 24k. so its hard for me to say since im no where near that .. but again, thats a LONG way from where this conversation is..

praetoria
08-18-2010, 11:13 AM
The value of Agility to Str varries, but it's usually only 70-80% as valuable as strength (according to all the playing I've done in Landsoul's). However agility gear is usually better itemized because A) it has more item points than str and B) it tends to have ArP where str, at least pre ICC was more haste-ish.

As a warrior you Gem Str until you can gem to hit the the soft/hard ArP cap, and once past that you gem Str.

Unless you need hit or Exp. Since missed specials = no damage, hit until 164 hit and expertise rating until 26 expertise is more valuable than Str/ArP/everything else.
you lost me... sort/hard cap... which one are you refering to? im pretty sure hes past soft cap.. and im also pretty sure you start jemming arp at soft cap

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 11:19 AM
no no, i said once armor pen is over 60% from gear or in other words, when he gets to that point.and the trinket dosnt proc to 100%, unless your base arp is around 65%.. if your at 40% it will bring you closer to 85% during the proc. as for strength vs agility, you would really have to talk to top end fury warriors.. its debated all the time, much like avoidence vs ehp but this case its far more dabatable. ive seen fury warriors in 277 stacking agility and ive seen them stacking strength eaither way the dps cap for fury is 24k. so its hard for me to say since im no where near that .. but again, thats a LONG way from where this conversation is..

No. Play with landsouls, you will find agi is between 70 and 80% as valuable as str. It is never higher than 4/5ths as good. Agility gear is often used, but agilty gems ARE NEVER USED. If gemming for something other than Str after 1400 passive ArP then it's Crit (unless you need hit/exp to stay capped).

Agility GEAR is often better than str GEAR but never, never for gems.

If you disagree, please link armories, EJ posts, etc. Landsoul's spreadsheet is something like 99% accurate and to be off that much is very, very unlikely.

At BiS gear, Landsoul, which is the default profile, shows agility worth 74% of str.

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 11:22 AM
you lost me... sort/hard cap... which one are you refering to? im pretty sure hes past soft cap.. and im also pretty sure you start jemming arp at soft cap

Soft cap = Passive ArP + Item Proc (Like NES) to hit 1400 ArP
Hard Cap = 1400 ArP with no proc.

You only gem ArP if you can hit one of them through gemming, either soft or hard.

He's nowhere near the soft capt. NES gives 678 ArP on proc, meaning you have to have 722 passive ArP to hit 1400. He has 434, so he's nowhere near the soft cap. Maybe if he gemmed all ArP he'd be closer, but he doesn't have a lot of gem slots.

ArP ---

Using NES as an example, you want to gem ArP if you can hit 722 passive ArP, then repalce ArP gems with Str gems every time you hit 742 ArP until you have no ArP gems.

Then once you hit 900 ArP, start looking. If you can't hit 1300 ArP by re-gemming, wait until you can. And at this point start eating the ArP food.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 11:26 AM
No. Play with landsouls, you will find agi is between 70 and 80% as valuable as str. It is never higher than 4/5ths as good. Agility gear is often used, but agilty gems ARE NEVER USED. If gemming for something other than Str after 1400 passive ArP then it's Crit (unless you need hit/exp to stay capped).

Agility GEAR is often better than str GEAR but never, never for gems.

If you disagree, please link armories, EJ posts, etc. Landsoul's spreadsheet is something like 99% accurate and to be off that much is very, very unlikely.

I dont disagree..

Im trying to convay the need to stack arp at this point for the op, and correct the build, glyph and stat priority at his stage in gearing. agility/str/crit is not going to bennifit him for a long time

praetoria
08-18-2010, 11:30 AM
Soft cap = Passive ArP + Item Proc (Like NES) to hit 1400 ArP
Hard Cap = 1400 ArP with no proc.

You only gem ArP if you can hit one of them through gemming, either soft or hard.

He's nowhere near the soft capt. NES gives 678 ArP on proc, meaning you have to have 722 passive ArP to hit 1400. He has 434, so he's nowhere near the soft cap. Maybe if he gemmed all ArP he'd be closer, but he doesn't have a lot of gem slots.

ArP ---

Using NES as an example, you want to gem ArP if you can hit 722 passive ArP, then repalce ArP gems with Str gems every time you hit 742 ArP until you have no ArP gems.

Then once you hit 900 ArP, start looking. If you can't hit 1300 ArP by re-gemming, wait until you can. And at this point start eating the ArP food.


this to is not what i have heard, its not what ive done, and ive out dps'd fury warriors in my gear lvl for a very long time.

in any event, if he rejems his crit, attackpower, and stam jems, the soft cap is not far away with a proc considering he has axcess to 1 or 2 frost upgrades.

i personally jemed arp after i passed 35% passive. the difference in rage gen allows for a much smoother rotation. and fury is built around the use of flurry. which is why rage is such a big deal

Thegreatme
08-18-2010, 11:33 AM
itemize for the ArP hardcap when landsouls spreadsheet says that the SEP of ArP is >1. there isn't necessarily a magic number of minimum ArP needed on gear because other stats affect the value of arp.

I don't see what the point of this argument is...

Kazeyonoma
08-18-2010, 11:34 AM
do not spec out of precision, it is some of the best talent points you can spend, spending 3 talent points into that, is equivalent to 32.9*3 = 98.7 hit rating. that's almost 5 gem slots you free up to use elsewhere. The key thing is for him to drop all of the hit gear and grab other gear that would benefit him more, 5 man heroic gear, emblem gear, tier 9 gear. etc. dropping the talent to lose some hit is just bad practice, the hit is good, it's efficient from the talent tree.

unbridled wrath is bad, you generate minimal rage out of it, it's barely good once you're absolutely maximized in your gear sets, but that's only because you have nothing left to spend, and even then you STILL get precision. Also Enrage is terrible, it can't proc from aoe effects in current day mechanics, so the only way to get enraged, is to get punched in the face by the boss which means you're dead.

Ion
08-18-2010, 11:36 AM
Toskk's Maximized Wristguards, for example, are BiS for fury (as well as rogues). That doesn't, however, mean that agility is something you want to stack...it just means that they have a lot of great stats on them (assloads of crit and a nice chunk of arp, in particular). Similarly, I think, there are leather gloves that have excellent stats, the badge leather belt has better stats than the badge plate one for fury, as does the badge agi cloak.

They're not stacking agility, they're stacking ArP mainly...but the fact that those items also have a huge chunk of crit and generally MORE stats (particularly they DON'T have hit, which so much 264+ plate gear has excessive amounts of) than the plate options have make them better options for fury warriors.

Gemming for warriors boils down to:

Do I have enough ArP on my gear that if I gem for it I can get above 90% or so armor pen?
Yes -> Gem armor pen
No -> Gem strength (and get strength socket bonuses from yellow sockets with Str/Crit gems)

Honestly, I find gemming around the proc from NES or even Mjolnir's is mediocre...you're depending on a fairly low uptime trinket to really make the most of your DPS.

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 11:39 AM
Im trying to convay the need to stack arp at this point for the op, and correct the build, glyph and stat priority at his stage in gearing. agility/str/crit is not going to bennifit him for a long time

I don't know where you're seeing these arguements, I'd love for a link to them to see what the logic is.

But the best returns for warriors are:

Gem for ArP if you can hit Hard/Soft cap.

If you can't hit the ArP hard/soft cap then

Blue Slot = +20 Str (typically there might be rare cases when hit is needed)

Red = +20 Str

Yellow = +10 Str + 10 Crit if you don't need a blue to hit the socket bonus (so like a Y only gem slot, or a RY pair of gem slots) Otherwise +20 Str

If you don't trust this, download Landsoul's, Crit is the 2nd most valuable stat after Str, almost 90% as valuable as str, so even a +4 bonus gives a greater return than the 10 str you're giving up whether it's Str or crit (not sure if Agi is worth it andi f you're capped, +20 Str over hitting a yellow to activate a ArP bonus)

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 11:44 AM
this to is not what i have heard, its not what ive done, and ive out dps'd fury warriors in my gear lvl for a very long time.

in any event, if he rejems his crit, attackpower, and stam jems, the soft cap is not far away with a proc considering he has axcess to 1 or 2 frost upgrades.

i personally jemed arp after i passed 35% passive. the difference in rage gen allows for a much smoother rotation. and fury is built around the use of flurry. which is why rage is such a big deal

Congradulations, I've been out DPSing fury warriors in higher item level gear for a long time, including when I had 700 hit because it was off spec for me at the time.

Most WoW players don't even come close to their ceiling. Out DPS-ing them doesn't mean a whole lot.

After ArP capped, then STR > Crit and that's pretty much it. That raises your ceiling as high as it can go.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 11:51 AM
do not spec out of precision, it is some of the best talent points you can spend, spending 3 talent points into that, is equivalent to 32.9*3 = 98.7 hit rating. that's almost 5 gem slots you free up to use elsewhere. The key thing is for him to drop all of the hit gear and grab other gear that would benefit him more, 5 man heroic gear, emblem gear, tier 9 gear. etc. dropping the talent to lose some hit is just bad practice, the hit is good, it's efficient from the talent tree.

unbridled wrath is bad, you generate minimal rage out of it, it's barely good once you're absolutely maximized in your gear sets, but that's only because you have nothing left to spend, and even then you STILL get precision. Also Enrage is terrible, it can't proc from aoe effects in current day mechanics, so the only way to get enraged, is to get punched in the face by the boss which means you're dead.


i cant think of a non top tear gear set where hit not plentifull. im not specd into hit and im still far over hit cap

Thegreatme
08-18-2010, 11:54 AM
That's rather interesting, considering there are only two items in the warrior BiS list with hit on them, which give you a total of ~4% hit, meaning either you need a draenei, or you need to gem hit if you are horde.

MellvarTank
08-18-2010, 11:55 AM
no no, i said once armor pen is over 60% from gear or in other words, when he gets to that point.and the trinket dosnt proc to 100%, unless your base arp is around 65%.. if your at 40% it will bring you closer to 85% during the proc. as for strength vs agility, you would really have to talk to top end fury warriors.. its debated all the time, much like avoidence vs ehp but this case its far more dabatable. ive seen fury warriors in 277 stacking agility and ive seen them stacking strength eaither way the dps cap for fury is 24k. so its hard for me to say sunce im no where near that .. but again, thats a LONG way from where this conversation is..

No. Softcap for ArP with a trinket is 52.4%, anything above that is wasted stats when the trinket procs. You never gem agility.... ever.

Agi items are (in some cases) much better itemized than strength ones. LANDSOULS LANDSOULS LANDSOULS to check for this. If you don't have that spreadsheet, get it for DPS.

There is no debate on Agi vs. Strength. Strength is a better stat, but the ITEMIZATION on Agi items is (as Loganisis said) often better, which is where the argument happens. To check this, use a spreadsheet.

For more info on ArP and the caps, the search function is top right of the site.

Oh, and Precision is the highest dps per point you can spec into.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 11:57 AM
I don't know where you're seeing these arguements, I'd love for a link to them to see what the logic is.

)


i personally have never jemd agility.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 12:00 PM
Oh, and Precision is the highest dps per point you can spec into.


i dont understand that at all.. the guy has 500 hit.. he has a lot of gear to replace, when he falls under hit cap (if that ever happens) with his upgrade he can always respec again. long term yes but short term?

praetoria
08-18-2010, 12:01 PM
That's rather interesting, considering there are only two items in the warrior BiS list with hit on them, which give you a total of ~4% hit, meaning either you need a draenei, or you need to gem hit if you are horde.

yes.. io understand that.. i also understand that this warrior is about 2 months away from haveing most of the bis items at best

Thegreatme
08-18-2010, 12:02 PM
i dont understand that at all.. the guy has 500 hit.. he has a lot of gear to replace, when he falls under hit cap (if that ever happens) with his upgrade he can always respec again. long term yes but short term?
he doesn't have the gear to get full use of the HS OH hit bug, so hit past the cap is still going to be used, the other places he could put those points are mediocre +/- terrible.

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 12:04 PM
well, the op didnt get the idea to gem agility from me.. so its obviously out there.. i was simply adressing it.. if you want to go one step further to point out the returns that fine.

i personally have never jemd agility. but thats not to say someone hasnt told the op to do so. your shooting the messenger here

What happened to "top Fury stacking Agility"? You're the only one bringing the message. You kept referencing the concept of Fury stacking Agi, multiple times.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 12:05 PM
he doesn't have the gear to get full use of the HS OH hit bug, so hit past the cap is still going to be used, the other places he could put those points are mediocre +/- terrible.


ok, so telling a fury warrior with 500+ hit to spec for hit is a great idea

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 12:05 PM
itemize for the ArP hardcap when landsouls spreadsheet says that the SEP of ArP is >1. there isn't necessarily a magic number of minimum ArP needed on gear because other stats affect the value of arp.

I don't see what the point of this argument is...

Wouldn't it have to be >1.1 though for it to beat out Str + Kings?

praetoria
08-18-2010, 12:07 PM
What happened to "top Fury stacking Agility"? You're the only one bringing the message. You kept referencing the concept of Fury stacking Agi, multiple times.

Thegreatme
08-18-2010, 12:16 PM
Ok, I'm bored with this thread, so let me attempt to end it.


1) agi and fury.
agility items have 4 useful dps stats: agi, ap, and two others.
str items have 3 useful dps stats: str and two others.

The reason why you see fury warriors wearing agi items is because the sum SEP (strength equivalency points) is generally higher than the sum SEP of str items. this does NOT make every agi item automatically better than str items.

Don't gem agi, when it's alone str is always better.

2) hit.
unless you are capable of having 100% HSF; which by the way most of you aren't, hit still has some value after being soft capped. unless some how you happen to be in mostly 277 gear, and have like 500 hit rating, then I could see dropping precision because you would have 100% HSF anyway, but the fact is that's not the case so having precision is going to be better than not having it and getting some other mediocre talent.

3) landsouls spreadsheet.

If it tells you to do something, do it. if you have any questions as to why it tells you to do something there is a thread about the spreadsheet on these forums, and I would be happy to answer your questions. Every single DPS warrior should be required by law to have the spreadsheet and to spend a decent amount of time playing around with different itemization setups in the spreadsheet.

loganis, as for your 1.1 SEP question: no. the spreadsheet factors that in. it factors EVERYTHING in that you tell it to.

4) " I beat DPS warriors all the time so therefore I'm right"
Just because you might be able to do something in a less wrong way than someone else doesn't mean you are right.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 12:20 PM
why not stack haste?

Loganisis
08-18-2010, 12:20 PM
the op made reference to agility. i adressed it. i did not agree with with.

OP didn't edit his posts and never made a mention.



3) as for your wepons and the stats ur stacking or jemming.. you have to first understand fury is a max dps spec in top gear gear.. it is and has always been under par if your wearing less then the best gear available. the most bennifical stat for you is armor pen.. this over strength and agility right now.the crit jems are not helping you at all . once your over 60% arp from ur gear, you can look to stats like agility. the only stat that will show you giant dps strides is wepons damage. so when ur looking at wepons, weather it has agility or str should mean little to you at this point in time, unless the stat changes are dramatic.

You however did.

The biggest thing has nothing to do with agility though. There have been a lot of great minds here and at EJ and at other sites that have crunched the numbers. They've come out with the best possible path, and there really is a mathamtically provable best possible path.

If you post contrary to that, there will be feedback, so be ready to back it up where the information you've seen is coming from.

I've never heard of any arguement between agility and str like you claimed there was, so the pressure to post a link there was to see what the merits of the discussion would have been.

There are very few unknowns in WoW that aren't directly tied to RNG and thus infuriating. So a very strong arguement for a specific process has been created. If you're posting contrary to this, be ready to prove your claims.

One thing I'll often do if I'm not sure I know something is ask if my understanding is correct so the better minds on here explain the basics. I think many here, including myself, quickly found that our pre-held assumptions or views were not always anywhere near being correct.

praetoria
08-18-2010, 12:35 PM
Uh... What? Agi/Str Doesn't matter what type of stat is on it (in fact Agility gear usually has more stats on it). MH is for your biggest top-end damage wep. Period (well with that dumb Bryntoll exception). Tyrannical Beheaders might be better, but I'd have to look them up to see, but really, you're looking at stats and top-end damage, if you have an Agi option that has better top-end damage and stats, use it.

majopr miss read on my part.. even wrong poster -_- editing*

Krays
08-18-2010, 01:14 PM
he doesn't have the gear to get full use of the HS OH hit bug, so hit past the cap is still going to be used, the other places he could put those points are mediocre +/- terrible.

HS OS hit bug? please elaborate ? :P not seen that before.

Thegreatme
08-18-2010, 01:17 PM
HS OS hit bug? please elaborate ? :P not seen that before.
when HS is cued, your OH weapon works off of the special attack hit table, meaning if you are above the soft hit cap, your OH can not miss when HS is cued

Deathsupply
08-26-2010, 04:44 PM
when HS is cued, your OH weapon works off of the special attack hit table, meaning if you are above the soft hit cap, your OH can not miss when HS is cued

WOW, really? that's new news to me, but really awsome to know. So as long as a given person has 100% Heroic strike que-up-time during any given encounter, the Offhand weapon will never miss with white attacks? I'll file this away into my plethora of warrior knowledge :P