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Phindo
08-15-2010, 04:37 AM
Hi, well i have seen some posts that say mainly gear for EHP but an officer in our guild says im better gearing for avoidance for raiding. Im not sure wether to gear for avoidance or EHP, he says i may have lower EHP when geared for avoidance but its a lot better than having loads of EHP and not much avoidance. Which ever you recommend i should mainly gear for please check out my armoury and see if i should change anything.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moonglade&cn=Phindo

Passive
08-15-2010, 05:21 AM
There are so many threads about this that I'm not sure you're being serious.

Check the theory and mechanics forum section and the stickies there. You'll find an in depth thread about why EH gearing is better for ICC by Aggathon. He also wrote a prot warrior guide which you can find a link to in his signature, which would help fix some of your awful gemming and enchanting decisions.

Chasey
08-15-2010, 01:36 PM
This is been answered lots of ways and in many threads.
I do really want to say this to you, IMO you are a bit on the lower geared side for ICC. Don't mean you can't do it but you will still take some shots.
As for what your officer in guild says about avoidance being better, he isn't right, at all. Its really an old way to think. There is still, even at this point in ICC, damage that is not avoidable. Blizz wanted us to get hit more that is why there is a 20% debuff in dodge. At that time EH (stam and armor) became more crucial.
Now for your toon and a few minor suggestion: GET RID OF THE PARRY GEMS. Its almost never acceptable to gem parry. In fact you should gem all stam aside from the one red or purple you need for the activation of your meta. I would say grab mongoose for the weapon or blood draining. Get the PVP enchant for the shoulders for added stam. You can afford to do this with the def you have. You are a tad over hit capped, adjust that if you can to add something in the place of the wasted 1.5% extra hit you have going on. The chest should be superior health (275 health) and Armor for the cloak.

Let the officer or raid leader as gently as possibe know that rolling the dice on avoidance is just that, EH and Stam are better mitigation at this point in game.

Petninja
08-15-2010, 01:48 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?66564-Why-We-Do-What-We-Do-(An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics)

That is all.

Krays
08-15-2010, 01:50 PM
Yeah , the Op really needs to spend time reading here, after looking at his armoury, so many rookie mistakes, its to much to go in to, especially since its all already here in stickies. To OP, Soak up all the information in these forums , and if you do nothing else 100% for sure read the stickies here.

Read the thread about hit and expertise by the guy who has the "so you think you need hit and expertise?... still think you need it?" siggie( your over abundance of hit gems and expertise gems and hit gear, tell me you value hit/expertise too much), and all the EHP ones. Also see what glyphs people use these days for survival (the only real discussion left about survival is about glyphs imo really since ehp vs avoidance has been proven not to really even be a discusion anymore, you just take what ever avoidance you can get, but focus on EHP, simple), you aint using survival glyphs , trinkets could be better too, yeah just read the stickies, it all there.

Mend
08-15-2010, 02:01 PM
There isn't much point in explaining the reasons since it has been explained in full detail hundreds of times as to why [Insert stat here] isn't better than EHP.

But I would like you to go out and experience it for yourself, do some challenging bosses for your gear level (ToGC, ICC without the buff) and see if avoidance has helped your survivability more than EHP. I believe this is the best way aside from reading the guides and stickies here to learning what will benefit your survivability in the long run.

MellvarTank
08-15-2010, 09:37 PM
Hi, well i have seen some posts that say mainly gear for EHP but an officer in our guild says im better gearing for avoidance for raiding.

No.

Search function is top right.

Timberton
08-15-2010, 10:16 PM
My answer:
Gear for both!


Some fights are better done in EH gear, others are better done in avoidance/mitigation gear (oh ya, and you also need a frost resistance set...).

Theotherone
08-16-2010, 09:21 AM
Is this horse dead yet?

MellvarTank
08-16-2010, 09:29 AM
Yeah.... we's just kicking it now for fun.

Nez
08-16-2010, 09:31 AM
Seriously - Gear for Looks! It is hard to get a full matching set!

praetoria
08-17-2010, 09:28 AM
Hi, well i have seen some posts that say mainly gear for EHP but an officer in our guild says im better gearing for avoidance for raiding. Im not sure wether to gear for avoidance or EHP, he says i may have lower EHP when geared for avoidance but its a lot better than having loads of EHP and not much avoidance. Which ever you recommend i should mainly gear for please check out my armoury and see if i should change anything.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moonglade&cn=Phindo


Avoidence for ICC raiding is a very complicated stragity. it often involves having several gear sets, changing out gear for spicific encounters, and most importantly, having a proper EHP pool to start with.

at the beginner stages, avoidence is a very, very BAD idea for a new tank to stack. You need to work on getting the set peaces from frost. the avoidence from those sets are more then what you need to get started. from there, stack all stamina. Once your UNbuffed hp is a little over 45k, you can start to consider building an avoidence set. by this time you should have plenty of frost saved up after you have accumulated your base set. But even that is a very long way off from where you are now.

In the mean time, NO PARRY EVER... you need to research somthing called deminishing returns. theres plenty on info on this site about it.. Until you have a full understanding of DM, just trust in the advice of the pros here on tankspot when we say never stack parry. and just stack stam for now.

the next thing you want to look at is ehchants and jems.

titanium plating is the way to go for shields.

look to add mongoose or blood draining to ur wepon.. i personally would go with mongoose.

your way over hit cap, and for a tank, too much hit is really a waste. change those jems out for stamina. disreguard socket bonuses and jsut jem the 30+ stam jems

your spec is in good condition

your glyphs need help.. you should be glyphing for cooldowns for raiding. cleve is great for aoe trash, but on any boss fight that needs to be glyph of shield wall. also, you want to pick eaither glyph of blocking or devistate. replace one of them with glyph of last stand.

one of the things that make warriors unique is our control over cooldowns. we have a lot of them, and proper use of them is what seperates a good tank for a bad tank.

once you have gotten the above taken care of, you need to look up a good rotation and learn to master it. there are plenty of resources here for you to find the right rotation, and how to incorporate ur cooldowns into them.


finally, tell your officer he should spend more time here. as the information he is offering you is extreemly misinformed.

Fledern
08-17-2010, 10:01 AM
titanium plating is the way to go for shields.


No. The only thing that is good for is for soloing old raids (which you still dont need but meh). +18 stam or +22 defrating will all serve you better.

Glyph choice is a more personal question. If your survivability is fine, more importantly, if your healing team is fine, you can probably do without the survival glyphs. Shield Wall & Last Stand glyphs get those cooldowns down to 2 mins. With the averge fight in icc being around 5 mins, it means you have 4 major cooldowns per fight at your disposal.

Question is, do you need that much? When i was starting out in ICC and we had no buffs, i was making liberal use of those cooldowns and the glyphs made a huge difference. Now, with the 30% buff, i use once or twice, if ever, any cooldown. I took a much more undergeared toon into icc (running with 3 tank toons, yay!) and never had to worry about survival or have the feeling i didnt have enough cooldowns. As such, in today's 30% raiding of normal modes, i would go after other glyphs, like devastate or blocking or cleave for more threat. Best is to go in with stacks of each and change accordingly inside the raid instance to find what glyph best suits your needs. I regularly carry 5 different glyphs with me to customize for the fight.

Glorc
08-17-2010, 10:02 AM
titanium plating is the way to go for shields.
I believe the bc 18 stam is the accepted EH chant.

Santoro Spell checker is like your shield on these forums, you don't skip using your shield for raid tanking do ya ? I like reading through your ideas but it hurts my brain at the same time.

Bashal
08-17-2010, 10:17 AM
I swear, I'm just gonna start telling tanks to gem spirit. (not).

As was said, lots of guides here stickied in the forums, lots of folks here actually worked it out and aren't just parroting something someone else somewhere told them.

My honest advice? Even if you aren't sure, try it our way. If you really, really think we have it wrong after that, then try it some other way.

Loganisis
08-17-2010, 10:31 AM
Once your UNbuffed hp is a little over 45k, you can start to consider building an avoidence set.

Wall of text, probably far less elequent than what Aggy or Mellvar or others could say.

Personally, I'd suggest going with a more full armor set and a stamina set. The reason being is ICC is broken up into two categories - magic burst fights and everything else.

First, magic burst fights (typically considered LDW, Sid, LK and if you're tanking Kelaseth) - Stamina and Magic Resistance (Shadow/Frost depending on the fight) will lead to more survaiblity. Dodge/Parry/Block/Armor are all useless against the magic burst (though you will stake big chunks of physical damage), so a more pure stamina build maximizies your surviablity with magic resistance minimizing incoming damage through these bursts. Gearing choices like having dual stamina trinkets, dual stamina righs, and the Morrogwar 25 wrists instead of the Saurfang 10 wrists will help build this Stamina set.

Second, everything else. The best way to make yourself more healable is to maximize your armor. Dual armor rings, armor/stam trinket, DBS 10 wrists. You do this and the hits you take will be noticeably smaller and thus you will be easier to heal and keep healed. The problem with an avoidance set, is you're just not going to be getting much out of it. It's going to take a lot of rating points, because of diminishing returns, to get to the point that the extra avoidance is likely to occur with any frequencey during a boss fight, and then, the question is does the extra avoidance help you when you need it? If you do avoid, it likely will result in less raw damage being taken, but maxizing armor will essentially ahve the same effect because you'll be easier to keep topped off and if there is a problem with incoming heals, you'll be able to survive longer periods of time with no healing, giving your healers more wiggle room.

I believe the math that's been done shows that unless you can get your effective avoidance (after accounting for diminishing returns) up to 80%+ (which I don't think is possible in ICC), EH (armor and stamina gearing) results in a noticebly lower mortality rate. But this is trying to recall the work better minds than mine have done.

Aggy's work is a great place for a far better picture of this than I'm putting down.

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?66564-Why-We-Do-What-We-Do-%28An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics%29

****

The crux of this though is being a big 'ol pile of meat and metal is a very athestically unappealling play style. The idea of being a more technical and precise player (such as focusing on being a nimbler player with higher avoidance) is very appealing. And with the 30% buff straying from the 'perfect possible path' is less unforgiving.

If you're trying to maximize your survability, a stamina set will give you enough physical damage protection (armor) plus allow you to better take magic attacks, especially if focus on being magic-resistant for the fights that have high magic burst and heavier magic damage.

Then a base set that maximizes armor (in every case where you have the choice between a bonus armor and higher stamina item, neck, wrist, fingers the armor gains > stamina gains I believe, when you're looking at ICC 10/25 N/H gear) for the rest of the fights will really help the healers out (even though they likely don'd need it, our holy pally regularly crits for heals > my health unless I have popped Last Stand) and maximize your surviablity in the raid.

The hold up will always be play style. Avoidance sets are simply sexier gearing sets for a lot of tanks even if they aren't the perfect possible setup.

praetoria
08-17-2010, 10:56 AM
No. The only thing that is good for is for soloing old raids (which you still dont need but meh). +18 stam or +22 defrating will all serve you better.

.


not true.. there is a wonderful relation between sb/v and armor, however, i cant find the right thread at the moment.

Loganisis
08-17-2010, 10:58 AM
IIRC, Plating is only better if you use SB on CD, so every 40 seconds. If you use it as a CD lite then stamina is better. Plus plating does no good versus magic, while stamina does.

praetoria
08-17-2010, 10:58 AM
at this point, i would stick to what logan is explaining.

MellvarTank
08-17-2010, 11:00 AM
not true.. there is a wonderful relation between sb/v and armor, however, i cant find the right thread at the moment.

Are you thinking of the order of damage reduction applications making one exponentially better based on the other?

The problem with this thought is that you aren't a paladin, and block rating is so low on current gear it still isn't worth it. Def or Stam is still better.

Theotherone
08-17-2010, 11:25 AM
I swear, I'm just gonna start telling tanks to gem spirit. (not).



Hey, don't knock spirit on warriors, my lvl 22 Warrior tanked her first instance last night, Razorfen Kraul, and picked up the shield off the last boss; it's got some nice spirit on it and I get wait to equip it when I hit lvl 27 http://www.wowhead.com/item=6694. Spirit rocks. :)

praetoria
08-17-2010, 11:32 AM
No. The only thing that is good for is for soloing old raids (which you still dont need but meh). +18 stam or +22 defrating will all serve you better.

Glyph choice is a more personal question. If your survivability is fine, more importantly, if your healing team is fine, you can probably do without the survival glyphs. Shield Wall & Last Stand glyphs get those cooldowns down to 2 mins. With the averge fight in icc being around 5 mins, it means you have 4 major cooldowns per fight at your disposal.

Question is, do you need that much? When i was starting out in ICC and we had no buffs, i was making liberal use of those cooldowns and the glyphs made a huge difference. Now, with the 30% buff, i use once or twice, if ever, any cooldown. I took a much more undergeared toon into icc (running with 3 tank toons, yay!) and never had to worry about survival or have the feeling i didnt have enough cooldowns. As such, in today's 30% raiding of normal modes, i would go after other glyphs, like devastate or blocking or cleave for more threat. Best is to go in with stacks of each and change accordingly inside the raid instance to find what glyph best suits your needs. I regularly carry 5 different glyphs with me to customize for the fight.

this depends how u use ur shield block.. by my calculations, its an addition 616 armor. so far better then the others IF you use bs as more of a rotation then a cd. but i cant immagine as a warrior using bs as a cd and not having it up at almost all times

MellvarTank
08-17-2010, 12:13 PM
by my calculations, its an addition 616 armor.

Could you post your calculations?

Loganisis
08-17-2010, 02:35 PM
this depends how u use ur shield block.. by my calculations, its an addition 616 armor. so far better then the others IF you use bs as more of a rotation then a cd. but i cant immagine as a warrior using bs as a cd and not having it up at almost all times

Minor point, you don't have it up at almost all times either. You have it up a maximum of 25% of the time with talent points reducing the cool down.

It's almost always on CD for you, but that's not the same as almost always being up.

Fledern
08-17-2010, 02:49 PM
Shield block has a meaning for paladins because with the current gear available, it's quite easy for them to become unhittable, at which point extra shieldblock value translates directly into effective health vs melee. It's also one reason paladins have lower base health than a similarly geared warrior.

Warriors can almost never get to unhittable (Anub add tanking gimmick gear excluded), thus, shieldblock value becomes a very minor improvement whereas stamina & defense enchants provide constant benefits.

Aggathon
08-17-2010, 03:04 PM
but i cant immagine as a warrior using bs as a cd and not having it up at almost all times

Uhh... wut?

MellvarTank
08-17-2010, 05:26 PM
He meant SB Agg, Shield Block.

praetoria
08-17-2010, 05:32 PM
Minor point, you don't have it up at almost all times either. You have it up a maximum of 25% of the time with talent points reducing the cool down.

It's almost always on CD for you, but that's not the same as almost always being up.


it really depends on the fight and how well you make use of it.. fights like surfang , rot, its probily up 40% of the time im taking damage.. and i always have another cd on had when it drops.. is its more or less a part of my rotation.. not a panic button

praetoria
08-17-2010, 05:33 PM
Shield block has a meaning for paladins because with the current gear available, it's quite easy for them to become unhittable, at which point extra shieldblock value translates directly into effective health vs melee. It's also one reason paladins have lower base health than a similarly geared warrior.

Warriors can almost never get to unhittable (Anub add tanking gimmick gear excluded), thus, shieldblock value becomes a very minor improvement whereas stamina & defense enchants provide constant benefits.

Im not trying to be unhitable.. sb gives an armor increase.. mine personally based on my stats is 616. combined with otehr cds and trinkets, its more or less incorportated in my rotation

praetoria
08-17-2010, 05:34 PM
He meant SB Agg, Shield Block.



win

MellvarTank
08-17-2010, 05:35 PM
You can have shield block up for a total of 1 minute in a 5 minute fight... ie: 20% of the time... unless I buggered the math.

praetoria
08-17-2010, 05:38 PM
You can have shield block up for a total of 1 minute in a 5 minute fight... ie: 20% of the time... unless I buggered the math.

thats correct. im jsut saying that your not being attacked 100% of the time in all fights.

Petninja
08-17-2010, 06:17 PM
You're assigning a value to the Plating that you shouldn't be applying, at least without first making some assumptions (which should be passed on to the community). The damage reduction from Titanium Plating will only equal 600 armor at a certain sized hit from a boss swing. Titanium Plating has a better value vs Blood Princes than it does vs H LK. Armor doesn't have the same variable in it's value. I'm not going to argue against using the Plating, as I prefer it myself. That's partly because I pvp a lot and like the built in weapon chain, and I don't have two of the same shield to enchant differently. I'm just suggesting that you don't compare it to armor, since the only similarity they have is that they are both in the damage mitigation category.

Aggathon
08-17-2010, 07:37 PM
I knew he meant SB, and if a warrior is just popping SB every time it's up, they're doing it wrong.

SB is a VERY powerful cooldown, that, while it should be used very frequently, should be saved for the times you need it, especially since it is both an offensive and defensive cooldown. Against a mob that hits for ~20k, SB is about a 33% reduction in damage for my toon. That's GOOD. It's also the best threat cooldown, imo. The proper use of shield block (see: not spamming it every time it's up) makes the difference between a good warrior and a great warrior.

Also please explain how 71 SBV = 600+ armor, that makes zero sense to me. Or are you saying using SB is equal to gaining 600 armor? that also makes zero sense to me because you're going to be mitigating a LOT more than 600 armor would with it up, unless the boss is hitting for like 100k+ or something, in which case you have bigger problems.

This thread is confusing to me and doesn't make a lot of sense. I demand math and numbers!

praetoria
08-17-2010, 09:00 PM
You're assigning a value to the Plating that you shouldn't be applying, at least without first making some assumptions (which should be passed on to the community). The damage reduction from Titanium Plating will only equal 600 armor at a certain sized hit from a boss swing. Titanium Plating has a better value vs Blood Princes than it does vs H LK. Armor doesn't have the same variable in it's value. I'm not going to argue against using the Plating, as I prefer it myself. That's partly because I pvp a lot and like the built in weapon chain, and I don't have two of the same shield to enchant differently. I'm just suggesting that you don't compare it to armor, since the only similarity they have is that they are both in the damage mitigation category.

yea.. i went wayyyy off topic

praetoria
08-17-2010, 09:10 PM
I knew he meant SB, and if a warrior is just popping SB every time it's up, they're doing it wrong.

SB is a VERY powerful cooldown, that, while it should be used very frequently, should be saved for the times you need it, especially since it is both an offensive and defensive cooldown. Against a mob that hits for ~20k, SB is about a 33% reduction in damage for my toon. That's GOOD. It's also the best threat cooldown, imo. The proper use of shield block (see: not spamming it every time it's up) makes the difference between a good warrior and a great warrior.



I think we have unknowingly agreed on the use of shield block. Im not saying i spam it at any oppertunity, I am saying that i keep it up as much as possible granted im not wasting the ability. I cant say I use this as a cooldown because Ive always considered cooldown as a panic or epic save button. shield wall is an ability i use as a cooldown. when surfang goes into frenzy, have my fingure on shield wall.. but on the taunt, when im building threat, i make sure shield block is but up right before my shield slam.

for sbv math.. please see thread titled " tanking calculations"

Aggathon
08-18-2010, 12:29 AM
shield block is an amazing cooldown, it is one of my first "oh shit" buttons.

Satrina
08-18-2010, 08:21 AM
Santoro, you do realise that 71 shield block value is equivalent to 616 armour for exactly one amount of damage you get hit for at a given amount of armour, right?

For example, say you have 40000 armour. Against a level 83 boss, that's 67.7835% mitigation. You then want to take 40616 armour, or 70.9442% mitigation, and then solve for the amount of damage coming in that would give a difference of 71 damage taken at both of those amounts of armour. For 40000 armour, that is 22505 damage, or a hit of about 6610 after armour mitigation (not exactly a fear-inducing hit these days). If you block that hit, your damage taken is reduced to 6539, which equates the the previous mitigation of 70.9442% or 40616 armour.

For a hit of 22505 unmitigated damage, your 71 shield block value is equivalent to 616 armour. This happens at no other point as long as you have 40000 armour. If you instead have 35000 armour, the unmitigated damage value is instead 18705. If you are at the armour cap (49905), then the damage value is 31000. And so on, with exactly one {damage, armour} pair across all possible armour values (0-49905) giving that differential.

The important thing to take away here is that is it nonsensical to say "71 shield block value is equivalent to 616 armour". That is only true at exactly one point in the damage continuum. For any given amount of damage you take, the armour equivalence your shield block value varies, and the harder it hits, the worse it gets.

praetoria
08-21-2010, 10:07 AM
[QUOTE=Warriors can almost never get to unhittable (Anub add tanking gimmick gear excluded), thus, shieldblock value becomes a very minor improvement whereas stamina & defense enchants provide constant benefits. .[/QUOTE]

the following is a quote from the warrior guide on this site:

To start with, you’ll use Shield Slam whenever it’s up. As soon as SaB procs, you use SS. You’ll also want to note that Shield Block, instead of a panic button, is much more important as a way of increasing your SS hits.

this is why i use sb as part of my rotation. its not strictly a defencive ability. furthermore, this is why plating is far better then defence or stam (in my oppinion).

going back to my orrigional suggestion, using sb as part of your rotation for threat gen is win, and plating provides a far larger bennifit then the stam or defence.

Aggathon
08-22-2010, 03:06 PM
How many times do you need threat gen after the first 10 seconds? I'm also pretty sure that's not from my guide, that's from the outdated one.

praetoria
08-23-2010, 05:48 PM
How many times do you need threat gen after the first 10 seconds? I'm also pretty sure that's not from my guide, that's from the outdated one.

I never battle with death tanking the current content. ( between cds, healers, exct) i do battle with threat pretty often. but thats just me


Is the post outdated??? id like to know if it is

Aggathon
08-24-2010, 12:04 PM
the WotLK Prot warrior guide hasn't been updated for a long time. Mine in the gearing and enchanting section is up to date (link in sig). Some of the stuff in that thread is still valid, but not all of it.

Wolvenheart
09-13-2010, 01:33 PM
Okay, I'd like to add a few things: Phindo didn't have to get pure avoidance, but find a balance. Currently, even our disc priests are complaining that he's hard to keep up.

I'd also like to add that currently Phindo has problems with aggro generation.

All in all, its all nice that you make him stack health only, but its kind of useless when he gets hit like a mad truck and hits like a plastic toy.

Bodasafa
09-13-2010, 01:45 PM
I heard someone was looking for this: http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?65700-Expertise-Hit-and-your-Threat.-What-it-means-to-all-Tanks.-%28Current-for-3.3.3%29

The facts about Expertise and Hit in the current game.

Look its not that Expertise and Hit do not increase your threat, they do. However they do so on a much smaller scale than people realize.

How all tanks generate threat (Listed from the highest source to the lowest):
1) Using your abilities properly. This is paramount, nothing increase your threat more than this.
2) Spec and Glyphs.
3) Proper use of external abilities such as TotT and MD.
4) 26 Expertise Skill.
5) Hit rating.

So I should just mindlessly stack stamina?
Stacking stamina is not mindless unless you do not understand why you should be doing it. Tanks that do not min/max their survival by stacking stamina (or armor where available) through gems and enchants are only doing their raid a disservice. There have been numerous reports from highly respected community members here on tankspot, in world ranked guilds that tanked Heroic ToGC 25 with as little as 40 hit rating and are now also in Heroic ICC 25 with as little as 16 expertise rating. These tanks are working with DPS that are pulling 10k+ on most fights and doing just fine without reaching the hit cap or the expertise soft cap.

If a tank is having threat issues no amount of expertise or hit is going to correct that, see #1 & 2.

Bashal
09-13-2010, 01:46 PM
How well does he know his rotation?

Does he use his tanking cooldowns at the right moments?

Execution matters as well. The "lost" avoidance from not gemming for it isn't very high. That's not what's killing him.

coe
09-14-2010, 03:40 AM
Okay, I'd like to add a few things: Phindo didn't have to get pure avoidance, but find a balance. Currently, even our disc priests are complaining that he's hard to keep up.

I'd also like to add that currently Phindo has problems with aggro generation.

All in all, its all nice that you make him stack health only, but its kind of useless when he gets hit like a mad truck and hits like a plastic toy.

What fights we're talking about? His gear is not that bad, he shouldn't be hard to keep up. I would suggest Phindo to get Pillars of the Might and some ring with armor (like Clutch of Fortification or Loop from ToGC10). On heavy physical fights, he should use that ring instead of Juggermaut Band. Other easy upgrades are 245lvl crafted bracers and 264 crafted boots. Enchants and gems look good now.

Again, he won't be easier to keep up by trying to balance avoidance with EHP. Pure HP and HP/Armor sets are the way to go in ICC.

And maybe I don't have that big experience in healing, but after raiding as Disc Priest I can tell that we're for raid healing, not tank healing. Ask Paladin / Drood or Shammy if Phindo is hard to keep up.

Roana
09-14-2010, 05:19 AM
Okay, I'd like to add a few things: Phindo didn't have to get pure avoidance, but find a balance. Currently, even our disc priests are complaining that he's hard to keep up.

I'd also like to add that currently Phindo has problems with aggro generation.

All in all, its all nice that you make him stack health only, but its kind of useless when he gets hit like a mad truck and hits like a plastic toy.

Some thoughts: It sounds as though you have discipline priests on tank-healing? That may be a big part of a problem -- discipline has about the worst single target throughput of any healer. Discipline do make awesome and powerful raid healers, but if you use them for tank healing, that's much more likely the issue than any tank gear.

A common survivability issue with warrior tanks is that they do not use Demoralizing Shout (or let it drop off) when there's nobody else providing an attack power debuff, but that should not be persistent (since in most fights, both tanks are on the same mob).

It's really hard to tell without a log what the issue is, though. It can be a number of things, and his gear looks mostly fine.

Aggro generation is most likely a technique issue; a common problem that many warrior tanks have is that they do not use Heroic Strike enough, but there are other potential rotation issues, too. Again, it's hard to tell without a log. However, I don't see anything in his stats that may cause threat issues: hit and expertise in particular are in good shape.

gd_void
09-14-2010, 05:52 AM
Three things i would like to point out

#1 Go farm the Normal HoR shield it's worth your time, and after you spend the time grinding it a better shield will drop to make all your efforts in vain. (8 non-consecutive hours farming it for me, an hour after it dropped i went into ToC25 and that shield dropped)

#2 1 Festergut kills (Heroic Icecrown 10 player). If your tanking H-Fester now is it safe to assume that being squishy has been solved?

#3 satrina's or Glyph of indomitably is an upgrade from the CTC

Theotherone
09-14-2010, 06:14 AM
Okay, I'd like to add a few things: Phindo didn't have to get pure avoidance, but find a balance. Currently, even our disc priests are complaining that he's hard to keep up.

I'd also like to add that currently Phindo has problems with aggro generation.

All in all, its all nice that you make him stack health only, but its kind of useless when he gets hit like a mad truck and hits like a plastic toy.

I heal on my pally and a tank geared like he is, is no problem to keep up in ICC 10 - 25 or H ICC 10. If you're healers can't keep him up it's really a healer issue not a tank issue.

Phindo
09-21-2010, 09:06 AM
Id like to add a few comments, 1: when he said about my threat generation being bad, it isnt at all, its quite decent and i can keep agrro on the bosses we do, its ovious im not gona keep all the agrro on the trash mobs because for a start im not an AoE tank and secondly we have like people around 6k gs and im like 5.5k. 2: i do know how to use my tanking rotation properly 3: lighsliver this is at you, i wasnt told by xtremos to balance my avoidance and EHP, he told me to go alomst full avoidance and a tiny bit of stam. 4: ill admit i dont ALWAYS keep up demorolizing shout i do have it up on some fights but not ALL the time, but that shouldnt make it so that the healers are complaining about my hp. 5:i dont know if there is a "set" way to use my CD's but i believe that i do use them pretty decently sometimes (on a scale of 1-10 on how good i use em id say about 5/10 maybe 6/10)

Also id like to ask you lot to check out my armoury again and tell me if i would be suitable to tank LK 10 normal? http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moonglade&cn=Phindo

Bovinity
09-21-2010, 09:08 AM
You're plenty geared for LK 10. A little overgeared, probably.

For reference, our LK 10 kill was tanked by a pug druid tank in cat gear/trinkets and ArP gems. ;)

Bodasafa
09-21-2010, 11:03 PM
Your shield and bracers are the most glaring issues and the fact you have no enchant on your weapon.

Check out heroic ToC 10 man. Good bracers off Beasts and nice shield off Anub. Also some decent boots from Valks. Go with Blood Draining on the enchant.

Overall not bad tho for 10 man normal ICC.

Phindo
09-22-2010, 11:28 AM
kk ty

Phindo
09-25-2010, 09:10 AM
who should be easier to heal in icc... me (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moonglade&cn=Phindo) or Xtremos (http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Moonglade&cn=Xtremos)?

Jammer Six
09-25-2010, 01:48 PM
Until you have a full understanding of DM, just trust in the advice of the pros here on tankspot when we say never stack parry.
There is no chance that I would ever do that. In my experience, the only people who say "trust me" are the least deserving of it. The people who are worthy of it never ask for it, with words or by implication.

They don't need to.

Carry on.

icantfindone
09-25-2010, 04:03 PM
Xtremos' gemming is bad, and spec even worse. I wouldn't even let him in my group to find out how it is to heal him.

Edit: Upon further inspection, even his arms spec is terribad. He clearly doesn't understand his class at all.

Jammer Six
09-25-2010, 09:18 PM
...
Comments are bad, English is worse. Upon detecting his attitude, I would remove him from the raid.

icantfindone
09-25-2010, 11:29 PM
I'm sorry Jammer. . . am I missing something? Are you Xtremos?

I guess I will expand on the gemming and spec.
1) Diminishing returns on parry are much harsher then dodge, meaning that point for point, dodge gives you more avoidance than parry at almost all but the most extreme cases.
2) Xtremos put purple gems in sockets that aren't red, and solid blue gems in sockets that are red. If they were swapped them, you can obtain the socket bonus resulting in more EHP, like the red socket in the boots and shoulders. However, the off-color gems in the legs, gloves, chest and the prismatic socket in the belt don't afford you any bonus.
3) In the protection spec, Cruelty is taken 5/5 points, but ATtT and Incite is ignored. Both ATtT and Incite provide more TPS to a warrior then Cruelty per point. Impale and Deep Wounds also offer more TPS per point than Cruelty. Improved Spell Reflection and Improved Disarm are useless on all ICC bosses.
4) In the arms spec, weapon specialization is skipped, but 5/5 Deflection is taken, 2/3 Blood Craze and 1/2 Second Wind are taken. Those are Tanking/Pvp talents that are useless in raiding. Also not really ideal for PVP as Blood Craze and Second Wind would both be maxxed, ignoring Improved Execute, and going for Piercing Howl instead. Glyph of Overpower is bad. You should be getting Overpower often just by keeping rend up, and in raids, you should be attacking from behind anyways, so GoO is useless (since bosses cant parry attacks from the rear, only dodge).
5) It seems that you do indeed use your arms spec for PVP, and have gemmed for armor pen in your PvP gear. If you placed 5 points in Mace Specialization (since you have Oxheart) it would give you another 15% armor pen, stacking with 10% from battle stance, to give you a total of 55.5% armor pen in your PvP gear, so you would be very close to soft cap with NES. Just a thought.

These are just simple observations from armory + character sheet. Jammer, if you are indeed Xtremos, take some of this advice and do a little bit of research before you lash out at people looking for help, or offering help. If you aren't the same person, then I dont understand the point of your previous 2 posts.

Martie
09-26-2010, 12:00 AM
There is no chance that I would ever do that. In my experience, the only people who say "trust me" are the least deserving of it. The people who are worthy of it never ask for it, with words or by implication.

They don't need to.

Carry on.
In that case...

Never stack parry.

gd_void
09-27-2010, 01:19 AM
Xtremos' gemming is bad, and spec even worse. I wouldn't even let him in my group to find out how it is to heal him.

Edit: Upon further inspection, even his arms spec is terribad. He clearly doesn't understand his class at all.

a Single Parry gem would bring up questions of why, Five Parry gems + the Horrible onyixa Trinket brings up questions of Really? To answer the Op's question, I would say he's going to be the easier to heal even before making the suggested changes.

Phindo
09-27-2010, 08:23 AM
thanks guys, but every time i try to explain this to xtremos he always tell me, that the healers find him easy to heal but he finds me hard to heal on his priest and i should try gemming and enchanting like him and i would be easier to heal. i really dont know how to convince him that he is wrong.

Bashal
09-27-2010, 10:11 AM
thanks guys, but every time i try to explain this to xtremos he always tell me, that the healers find him easy to heal but he finds me hard to heal on his priest and i should try gemming and enchanting like him and i would be easier to heal. i really dont know how to convince him that he is wrong.

I think part of the discrepancy there is that he's making an assumption based off two unrelated bits of feedback. 1) He finds it hard to heal you,
2) They (other healers) find it easy to heal him (on his tank).

The pieces that are missing here are:

1) Is he as skilled as those other healers? Geared the same?
2) Have those healers that find him easy to heal on his tank healed for you? What do they say? And to put it in context, is his tank more geared than yours, and is his tank the same class as yours?
3) He obviously can't heal himself. So he's only imagining what "easy" must mean when others say he's easy to heal.

As for (2), I ask because while I don't feel any tank class is significantly weaker or stronger in general, they definitely do take different patterns of damage that some may feel is "harder to heal".

Phindo
09-28-2010, 07:36 AM
1) i dont think he is as good geared, i think he is around 5,7k GS on his healer and the other healers are around 5.9k i think (im not 100% sure)
2)We are both warrior tank, i dont know if race is a big deal but im a dwarf (dont take the piss saying no wonder i get hit hard im small XD) he is a dareni. I am 5575 GS his tank is roughly 5.7k gs im not sure he may be 5.6k. I think the other healers have healed for me, and only 1 of them has ever actually said TO ME how i am to heal, and he said im not hard to heal but im not easy.

Bashal
09-28-2010, 08:22 AM
1) i dont think he is as good geared, i think he is around 5,7k GS on his healer and the other healers are around 5.9k i think (im not 100% sure)
2)We are both warrior tank, i dont know if race is a big deal but im a dwarf (dont take the piss saying no wonder i get hit hard im small XD) he is a dareni. I am 5575 GS his tank is roughly 5.7k gs im not sure he may be 5.6k. I think the other healers have healed for me, and only 1 of them has ever actually said TO ME how i am to heal, and he said im not hard to heal but im not easy.

Based on the information provided, I'd say he's just struggling a bit as a healer, not that you are horribly squishy. As has been mentioned, disc isn't as good at tank healing, although on normal modes in ICC, as long as you have someone else backing the disc priest up a bit, it shouldn't really be a big deal. He also may be suffering a bit from the "healing is supposed to be easy" notion. It's not easy. It's not super uber hard, but when you're in progression mode, or still gearing up on earlier bosses, it's definitely not a snooze-fest.

If the healers that usually heal him when he tanks all feel that you are definitely squishier, then there's something going on. Effective use of cooldowns and positioning can sometimes account for the difference in "squishiness", but there's no way for us to tell by looking at your armory if you're making effective playstyle choices, as opposed to gear and spec choices.

Honestly though: avoidance vs. EH has been done to death on tankspot. There's a ton of threads on this subject if you do a search on the forums.

Phindo
09-28-2010, 01:18 PM
ok thanks very much, been a big help everyone :)