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View Full Version : DPS Approximate measure of DPS to expect from gear level



swollenpickles
08-12-2010, 11:21 PM
My fairly casual guild is getting stuck on professor putricide and I suspect one of the major reasons for this is that the DPS isn't quite where it needs to be, particularly in terms of burning down the oozes before they take too many shots at the group.

My main is a hunter and in our 10man I'm usually number 1 (occasionally 2) on all the boss fights in terms of DPS/Damage Done. The thing is, I don't consider myself to be a great player, so while it may give me a warm and fuzzy in the short term being at the top of the list, I'm not sure that I should necessarily be there - if that makes sense.

In terms of gear, the other DPS in the group either have gear the same level, or higher, than I do (I'm at 5.7k gs for those that love that sort of thing) so I'd have expected the DPS figures to even out over boss fights.

So, what sort of DPS should you be expecting from different classes in 10man ICC (with current 30% buff) on some of the boss fights (eg. Deathbringer, Rotface and Festergut)?
I have a rogue and shaman that have done dps in ICC so I have a general idea of where they are at, but I've got no idea what you should reasonably be expecting from ret pallys, warriors, mages, locks etc in 5.7k+ GS gear.

PatrikL
08-13-2010, 01:26 AM
It very difficult to say without looking at specific characters but I would guess that on a stand still nuke type boss (saurfang, festergut, rotface and so on), a general dps char with many/most pieces beeing 264 should be able to do 10k with the 30% buff. Your most talented players could probably do 12.

(These numbers are for fairly good players, it is not uncommon to see numbers 50% lower in pugs)

On the other hand those numbers are for a nuke type boss so damage done on PP will be much lower since it is so much affected by movement. Its one of those fights where dps is bound to go up the more you practise it. Many melee players arent used to that much movement and I remember from our first runs with him that some melee dps could do 50% more damage than someone else who did about the same on non moving bosses.

Loganisis
08-13-2010, 06:57 AM
First, every fight is different, some classes will have higher output on some fights, lower on others, simply by the mechanics of the fight (Fester Saurfang love melee DPS, PP hates melee DPS for example).

Second, not all GS is equal. A poor collection of pure 264 gear may have a lower DPS ceiling than a pure 251 gear set (I'd have to check). And rotation is very critical too. WoW is a game of math. There is a single optimal rotation, and it can be mathematically proven. That's what players should strive for.

My recommendation is forget GS. There are spreadsheets out there for most (all?) classes that allow players to play with their gear to see what their theoretical ceiling is with different gear, your guildies may need to search for it. RAWR also does a good job of this and covers most class/specs from what I understand.

Zxian
08-15-2010, 02:56 PM
The article is a bit old, but still gets the message across. There have been some class changes since it was written, but the general idea should be the same.

http://www.wow.com/2010/05/06/icc-dps-analysis-by-spec/

Mind you, this was done before the ICC buffs were in place, so the numbers are the raw DPS potential per class and spec.

There are several tools available to almost all DPS classes to use in order to maximize DPS based on gear selection, gemming, and enchanting. Elitist jerks is a good place to start for many classes. Rawr works for some classes, but not all. The class modules are individually maintained, and if nobody is willing to maintain the math behind it, the numbers just don't work out and you get incorrect information.

The simple rule is this. On a straight stand-still fight (fester is a reasonably good measure of this) there should be little discrepancy (10% or less) between a properly played ClassX and properly ClassY, given a similar level of gear. If the difference is more than this, you should look into what you can do to improve your playing.

Hope this helps. :)

swollenpickles
08-15-2010, 10:10 PM
First, every fight is different, some classes will have higher output on some fights, lower on others, simply by the mechanics of the fight (Fester Saurfang love melee DPS, PP hates melee DPS for example).

Second, not all GS is equal. A poor collection of pure 264 gear may have a lower DPS ceiling than a pure 251 gear set (I'd have to check). And rotation is very critical too. WoW is a game of math. There is a single optimal rotation, and it can be mathematically proven. That's what players should strive for.

My recommendation is forget GS. There are spreadsheets out there for most (all?) classes that allow players to play with their gear to see what their theoretical ceiling is with different gear, your guildies may need to search for it. RAWR also does a good job of this and covers most class/specs from what I understand.

I'm sorry but maybe my question wasn't clear or you've misinterpreted it. It's not a GS thread, I just used that as a point of reference.
To put it another way, assuming that everyone is in 4 pcs of T10, gemmed and enchanted appropriately, carrying 251 weapons, what should you expect to see from the classes on the following fights in 10man normal mode. I'm not after an exact figure, just a benchmark:

Deathbringer Saurfang
Ret Paladin =
Warrior =
Rogue =
Hunter =
Mage =
Warlock =

Festergut
Ret Paladin =
Warrior =
Rogue =
Hunter =
Mage =
Warlock =

Professor Putricide
Ret Paladin =
Warrior =
Rogue =
Hunter =
Mage =
Warlock =

I've tanked, melee dps'd and ranged dps on these 3 and imho the first two (Deathbringer and Festergut) are basically target dummies for melee dps, and I'd expect melee to top the DPS charts on these fights (when using my gear assumptions above). Putricide is a different beast as everyone is moving etc so I'm not really sure what I'd expect to see to be honest.

swollenpickles
08-15-2010, 10:17 PM
The article is a bit old, but still gets the message across. There have been some class changes since it was written, but the general idea should be the same.

http://www.wow.com/2010/05/06/icc-dps-analysis-by-spec/

Mind you, this was done before the ICC buffs were in place, so the numbers are the raw DPS potential per class and spec.

There are several tools available to almost all DPS classes to use in order to maximize DPS based on gear selection, gemming, and enchanting. Elitist jerks is a good place to start for many classes. Rawr works for some classes, but not all. The class modules are individually maintained, and if nobody is willing to maintain the math behind it, the numbers just don't work out and you get incorrect information.

The simple rule is this. On a straight stand-still fight (fester is a reasonably good measure of this) there should be little discrepancy (10% or less) between a properly played ClassX and properly ClassY, given a similar level of gear. If the difference is more than this, you should look into what you can do to improve your playing.

Hope this helps. :)

Thanks, this is close to what I was after, just with 10man data instead. I guess you could drop 1K off those figures to allow for the difference between 10 and 25 man?

On a fight like Deathbringer, I would expect a properly played/specc'd ret pally to beat out a properly played mm hunter (assuming same standard of gear) - given that the hunter will be kiting beasts and dropping traps etc. Is it reasonable to say that if the MM hunter is coming out on top by 1k or more then there's something not quite right going on?

Zxian
08-16-2010, 12:37 AM
On a fight like Deathbringer, I would expect a properly played/specc'd ret pally to beat out a properly played mm hunter (assuming same standard of gear) - given that the hunter will be kiting beasts and dropping traps etc. Is it reasonable to say that if the MM hunter is coming out on top by 1k or more then there's something not quite right going on?Assuming a similar level of gear, and that the hunter is indeed kiting beasts, the ret pally should be able to do more overall damage than the hunter if played properly (they're both physical DPS classes - one just happens to be ranged). However, one thing that you have to be very careful of when comparing ClassX to ClassY in a 10 man raid is the presence (or lack) of certain buffs (caster vs melee). There are also some buffs that are fantastic for a particular class (e.g. melee haste for rogues), while others are somewhat lackluster (spirit for boomkins).

You can use WoW Raid Setup (http://wowraidsetup.com/) to see what kind of buffs are available to your raid group, and then get a general feel of where any discrepancies may lie.

Let me then modify my previous statement to add in the above information - given a similar level of gear, skill, and buffs, ClassX and ClassY should be able to put out similar DPS on a tank-n-spank fight.

Goros
08-16-2010, 06:36 AM
It really comes down to skill.

I've seen 6k GS toons outdps'd by 5k gs toons, and depending on the fights and the raid makeup that can change rapidly from one class to another. (in a 10 man my mage will pull 13.5k dps on saurfang with a 6.1k gs in arcane, and almost 15k in 25 man)

I'd put mages at 5k gs+ should be doing over 8k dps on average in any of those bossfights, but it doesn't mean they do. Same with shadow priests and locks. Hunters should be slightly below them, pallys, dk's, and warriors should be in the 7-8k range...

But since you are having such issues with the slimes on PP, are you tanking the boss on the green slime side the whole time, or are you running back and forth like chickens with your heads cut off? You need to be on the green slime side the whole time so that everyone can run over and stack on the green ooze every time it's up. Having to run all over the room to get to it isn't the right way to do it, regardless of what the videos say.

Loganisis
08-16-2010, 08:59 AM
I'm sorry but maybe my question wasn't clear or you've misinterpreted it. It's not a GS thread, I just used that as a point of reference.
To put it another way, assuming that everyone is in 4 pcs of T10, gemmed and enchanted appropriately, carrying 251 weapons, what should you expect to see from the classes on the following fights in 10man normal mode. I'm not after an exact figure, just a benchmark:

Hmm.... I see what you're going for. And I also don't think the DPS analysis by spec will help. There's no control over the gearing. If you're setting a specific standard (emblem gear + ICC 10N Weps) then I'd suggest using each class' spreadsheet (e.g. Landsoul's for Fury, is it femaledwarf for hunters? etc) and then try to determine a modifier for each type of damage dealer.

E.g. with Fester, Melee should be near 100% of expected output (unless they get spored and have to run out) while range with the collapsing should be maybe 95%

Then compare that to player's actual output.

I think that would be more accurate.


I've tanked, melee dps'd and ranged dps on these 3 and imho the first two (Deathbringer and Festergut) are basically target dummies for melee dps, and I'd expect melee to top the DPS charts on these fights (when using my gear assumptions above). Putricide is a different beast as everyone is moving etc so I'm not really sure what I'd expect to see to be honest.

PP is going to be far more forgiving to range than melee. Especially rogues (combo points. bleh!). Running back and forth, chasing orange, it's going to be hindering to melee. Range, if they've positioned themselves closely, shouldn't have to move all that much. At least that's my experiece.

swollenpickles
08-22-2010, 09:49 PM
I was in a 25 man ICC pug briefly on the weekend. Had to pst GS for entry, which I did. Apparently everyone had the achievement and everyone was over 5k GS. Roll through the trash up to Marrowgar with the usual amount of afkers d/cs that I've come to expect in 25 man pugs at this point.

Then we attempt Marrowgar. The DPS being put out was terrible, just plain bad. With the exception of four of us, everyone was pulling under 6K and standing in the fire. There were at least 5 DPS'rs doing less DPS on the boss than the main tank. Three of the 5 were DKs and they ranged from 3.1k - 3.7k dps. With the 30% buff and in 5k gs plus gear I just don't see how it's possible to pull such rubbish figures, you'd almost have to try to be that bad. Checked the gear/spec of a couple of them (after the wipe - spikes are hard). One of the DKs was dual wielding in blood spec (I'm no expert but that seems bad), another one had stacked two of the triumph hit trinkets (obviously to boost GS) all the while having hit coming out his ears. The third one was in half and half pvp gear. I excused myself and dropped group at that point.

I know you can down him with low DPS so long as people execute the fight correctly but half these people acted like he was a target dummy and they didn't need to move. Melee were standing in front of him wondering why they were dying. It was a masterclass of fail. I kind of felt bad for leaving cause there were a handful of people in there that seemed like ok people, but I didn't really want to waste half a day trying to drag through the other clueless clowns that hadn't made any effort to gear/spec appropriately. I can't wait for the day when 10 and 25 man raids drop the same gear, that way I won't have to bang my head against the wall that is 25 man ICC pugs.

Fledern
08-22-2010, 11:13 PM
I'd say it's really hard to pull up a dps table like the OP wants per boss. The closest you can come is go to worldoflogs.com, select the kills data for the boss you want and go to the last page of it to see about the minimum dps people can pull out & still get a kill.

Plus, as Loganisis has pointed out some classes will have extra trouble with switching targets. A destro lock will perform a lot better than an affliction dot for example (or the reverse is becoming true for us lately on normal - by the time the first ooze spawns, the professor stuns & phase changes - any lock managing to have her dots up outdps everyone :P ) I'd say it's still not a good idea to go by dps numbers on a fight like PP (for saurfang i'd be saying different things)

The thing is, from my experience, whatever your raid comp is, if you've managed to unlock the door to Putricide, you have the dps to kill him. Your dps should be sweating on phase3 because that's where dps limits are really pushed.

If you're failing on oozes, then it's simply a matter of dps not switching targets fast enough. A few sessions of naming & shaming with recount data on Enemy Damage Taken per ooze type should get people's attention. The advice on standing near the green ooze spawn all the time is also a very good idea, it minimizes running time.

Question: Is your abomination helping out on the oozes? Abomination's DPS potential is huge. A good abom driver would eat the ooze puddles & have enough time left over to a) apply his debuff on the ooze, b) dish out good dps himself.