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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Healing Part 2



Ciderhelm
08-03-2010, 04:52 PM
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Khilbron
08-03-2010, 05:15 PM
First

Moonscythe
08-04-2010, 12:25 AM
Awesome Vid. I always look forward to these videos every week!

Verg
08-04-2010, 03:52 AM
I replied to the original healing change video, but my response was probably best placed here...oh well. At any rate, I am very much looking forward to the more thoughtful approach players will have to take in Cataclysm, as healers or dps.

Yggdrasil
08-04-2010, 04:36 AM
The whole idea behind bandages, health pots, health stones (yeah stones are useful now too) being useful and in some cases must uses is an amazing concept I haven't seen since MC and BWL days. My only concern with this is a lot of it depends on gearing as the expansion goes on. Admittingly I cared a decent amount about mana at the start of BC, nothing like in vanilla, but still cared. Towards the end it was a zerg spam fest again for the most part. I feel really what killed it in Wrath was Naxx gear was such a cosmic jump from heroic gear, and Ulduar was such a cosmic jump from Naxx (then add in a heroic gear step between), then ToC was such a cosmic jump from Ulduar (again throw in a heroic gear step between and the fact ToC was kind of a filler speed bump in content release), and then finally the ICC lol fest of the raging mana river that gear alone provided.

All of that not factoring in things like replenishment, innervates, totems, and buffs all being icing on this amazing cake. Hell I have ran out of mana before and just sat around for 5-10 seconds and find myself at 20% again and ready to pull the hammer back on the Tommy gun again.

I just hope they find a way to balance out the net gains of how a healer progressively gears throughout the course of the expansion and keep this idea on course without diminishing the feeling of becoming a stronger healer as of course you do progress.

Verg
08-04-2010, 09:26 AM
Ygg,

From what I understand (which is not much, admittedly) of the expansion, that's precisely what they are doing with gear. Maybe someone with a beta key or more knowledge can back me up.

Spiritus
08-04-2010, 11:23 AM
From what I understand (which is not much, admittedly) of the expansion, that's precisely what they are doing with gear. Maybe someone with a beta key or more knowledge can back me up.

Tough to say without seeing itemization on dungeon vs. raid gear.

Good video as always. I would tend to disagree with you and say that Cataclysm will be the eventual death of the raid-wide damage aura, unless HoTs become as cheap to cast as "Heal." Right now, Renew stands at 21% base mana while FH is at 28%. Heal, on the other hand, is a measly 6%. Now, it would seem logical to me if Heal is my tank stabilization button for general incoming boss damage, shouldn't Renew be my raid stabilization button for incoming auras? At 21% base mana, the OOM train would arrive at the station faster than any healer would like, yet it is the absolutely most efficient way to counter a damage aura.

My point is an aura tick for 10% on at 50k healthpool hits for 5k. Now, for a, say, 5-7min fight of constant aura damage, I think its safe to assume that constant casting of a 21% base mana spell in a world without infinite mana and no OS5SR would lead to OOMed healers, if they are also reacting to spike damage.

The converse of this is to use Heal to combat auras, but sadly, even for someone with a solid amount of haste, Heal will really only let you keep 2 [maybe 3] people up.

Whoop-dee-doo! But what does it all mean, Basil? Simply, I think, since your basic counter to constant damage isn't sustainable over a long period, one of two things will eventually happen:

(1) Goodbye persistent raid wide damage auras
or
(2) Hello 6-10% base mana Renews et al

EDIT: Yes, I know they are trying to break the "blanket" mentality, but the best way to break this, honestly, is to remove persistent damage auras, not gimp a solid counter to a dreaded mechanic.

Verg
08-04-2010, 11:37 AM
Cataclysm will be the eventual death of the raid-wide damage aura


I was thinking the same thing. Simply considering the fact that mana will be finite in quantity, it would be difficult to heal a constant damage aura. As I recall, these auras became standard for many boss encounters so that healers would have more to do with their infinite mana, but again, I'm a dps and could be way off-base.

Yggdrasil
08-04-2010, 11:43 AM
EDIT: Yes, I know they are trying to break the "blanket" mentality, but the best way to break this, honestly, is to remove persistent damage auras, not gimp a solid counter to a dreaded mechanic.

I tend to agree. Persistent damage auras IMO are a pretty cheap mechanic anyway and I say that as a resto druid with those fights buttering the bread for us on live. At least a raid wide / completely unavoidable and forever lasting ones. Something like the final phase of Anub in ToC comes to mind as acceptable case for them since it comes in as a stage of the fight combined with a cleaver mechanic tied to it. Not just 'rawr, you aggro me so you all take damage now' story of a mechanic.

But if your going to leave them in then of course your going to have to leave in the counter in some form or fashion.

Infusion101
08-06-2010, 05:06 AM
I agree with spiritus as well , making mana count more is a good idea but making it so that you really can only have one mana-effecient spell that is single target and having the rest be for emergencies or high spike damage is just a plain bad idea, the renew thing is a good example

Infusion101
08-06-2010, 07:00 AM
But for the rest , i wish the healing was like this in wotlk , ulduar wouldve been even more fun

MTKing
08-06-2010, 07:49 AM
Infusion101 (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?73960-Infusion101)
gree with spiritus as well , making mana count more is a good idea but making it so that you really can only have one mana-effecient spell that is single target and having the rest be for emergencies or high spike damage is just a plain bad idea, the renew thing is a good example







I personally feel that this was more a description of how things were in vanilla and hand a lot to do with the ability to down rank. Less to do with how things are going to be in Cata. Mostly because no one as of yet has even raided in Cata (beta or not). So while thing appear to be going in that general direction I feel it is a little forgone of a conclusion to assume that is the way it is just yet. Considering if they have changed talent trees about 15 times now (and aren't done yet) that base mana costs and spells can and will likely go though a similar process.

I think the discussion is more centered around, and correct me if I am mistaken here, on if your going to leave X (and this case massive raid wide damage auras) that your going to have to leave a Y in (in the case a cheap affordable HoT like renew, also considering other classes too will have to have a similar counter) to equal preventable raid wipe.

Bashal
08-06-2010, 10:46 AM
All I know is, I'm tired of preemptive healing spam in wrath. :P

Spiritus
08-06-2010, 11:55 AM
I think the discussion is more centered around, and correct me if I am mistaken here, on if your going to leave X (and this case massive raid wide damage auras) that your going to have to leave a Y in (in the case a cheap affordable HoT like renew, also considering other classes too will have to have a similar counter) to equal preventable raid wipe.

That is the crux of my position. It would be rather cruel to have a persistent damage aura mechanic combined with the new healing model, unless it was set up to be a very fast fight that is built to test your rDPS vs. your healers' mana. Not to mention that it flies in the face of the new design to have any persistent damage aura.

Lore
08-08-2010, 03:58 PM
Blizzard will not remove raidwide damage auras. They will merely tweak the numbers until they can be dealt with. I think it's a bit early to say things like "You'll only be able to keep 2 or 3 people up" when not only have we not actually been able to experiment at all, but we don't know what itemization is going to look like (my prediction: spellpower/intellect, haste, and crit all become secondary to spirit for at least the first tier) AND Blizzard hasn't even begun to look at raid balancing.

For whatever goal Blizzard happens to want to reach, there is a set of numbers that lets them reach that goal. Focus on the concept first, and then make estimations at what the numbers will need to be for that concept to work. Don't just look at the current numbers, say "well, that doesn't work," and throw away the entire idea based on unnecessary assumptions.

Spiritus
08-08-2010, 06:55 PM
Blizzard will not remove raidwide damage auras. They will merely tweak the numbers until they can be dealt with. I think it's a bit early to say things like "You'll only be able to keep 2 or 3 people up" when not only have we not actually been able to experiment at all, but we don't know what itemization is going to look like (my prediction: spellpower/intellect, haste, and crit all become secondary to spirit for at least the first tier) AND Blizzard hasn't even begun to look at raid balancing.

For whatever goal Blizzard happens to want to reach, there is a set of numbers that lets them reach that goal. Focus on the concept first, and then make estimations at what the numbers will need to be for that concept to work. Don't just look at the current numbers, say "well, that doesn't work," and throw away the entire idea based on unnecessary assumptions.

I'm looking at it from a concept perspective and what certain heals are suppose to accomplish, juxtaposed to the idea that "mana matters."
I think I'm completely in the right saying using your only cheap spell, Heal and its equivalents, will only allow someone to keep up 2 or 3 people, if their design goals are what they say they are. Of course, you can keep far more people up than 2 or 3, but at a significant mana cost, which I find to be a very interesting design, just not coupled with a persistent damage aura. Now, if they change their mind on that, then I'll be wrong in the future.

Look at it this way, if damage auras are so light that Heal can accomplish the job when in a 25man raid, why even incorporate it? Why not use more interesting mechanics that test a healer's reaction time and spell selection? When damage-in is random and requires that triage scenario? Persistent damage auras are countered by HoTs because they are intrinsically, by design, the most efficient.

If the aura is so light that a single HoT will not only counteract the aura, but result in overheal, then it merely becomes a nuisance. Just use your AoE heals as then they will become more efficient [Chain, CoH, ProM, WG, Holy Nova, Healing Rain, the new paladin AoEs] and your direct heals primarily for spike. While this accomplishes the set goal of abolishing blankets and incorporating triage, it really isn't the best way.

If a single HoT only stabilizes an aura, then a blanket is the go-to. However, as I said, unless they change the mana costs on HoTs, it will OOM priests and druids. Why do I say that? Not because of the numbers I've experience in beta, but because Flash Heal and its equivalents are now designed to run you out of mana if you spam them. With Renew only 6% base mana less than FH, it is safe to assume that, under the current design [not numbers], it will run you OOM only slightly slower since they both cast at the same speed. In a 25man setting, assuming you run at least 3 HoT capable classes, that means in a "stabilization" scenaro, each healer will be responsible for roughly 9 persons. Now, I seriously doubt that the only damage-in on the raid will be just an aura. This leaves 6 seconds inbetween the blanket to triage. In a healing design where a spammed heal at 28% base mana should OOM you prematurely by design, spamming a 21% base mana spell 60% of the time, while the other 40% you are using possibly even more mana intensive spells, seems to miss the boat of their own design goals.

The third possible scenaro is that a single HoT will not counteract the incoming damage of a persistant damage aura, which is where we are in WotLK. This is only possible to heal because mana isn't a concern. If mana were a concern, you essentially are in a DPS race against your raid healers' mana pools.

The reason for the introduction of the persistent damage aura was that mana was infinite and healers needed a challenge. When mana is no longer infinite, and the design goal has been expressed to reward healers by proper use of spell selection in a triage situation, then one of the two things must give; again, unless they change the design goal. A healer should be rewarded by counteracting a persistent damage aura with a HoT. Under the current mana costs, however, you are punished nearly as if you chose Flash Heal to combat it, which is certainty the wrong selection.

My basic point doesn't revolve around clearly unfinished numbers. I only presented the percentages for FH and Renew because they have clearly stated that FH should not be spammed. The thesis is that persistent damage auras are, in my opinion, fundamentally against their own stated design goals. However, if they are to incorporate them anyway, then healers should feel like HoTs are the proper response, not the move that will OOM them before the end of the fight. Thus, my second option of reducing the mana cost of Renew type spells.

I personally do not see this as jumping the gun. If I wanted to do that, I would've been QQing about how pitiful PW:S & PW:B is in the beta and how I OOM after a simple trash pull like the plethora of healers on the official forums. Commenting on the persistant damage aura as counterproductive to the new healing design is both topical to what has been presented and fair game to critique.

EDIT: What I would think would be interesting is to have temporary damage auras, something like Hodir's frozen blows.

RE-EDIT: I would also be interested to know how healers feel about the persistent damage aura. From my very limited perspective, most healers I have met do not believe it to be fun. They see it as a chore. Of course, I'm sure there are a percentage that like it because of big recount numbers, but I would believe they are in the minority.

Scottpoet
08-09-2010, 12:05 AM
I don't see persistent damage auras going away, they are too good of a mechanic in the game. My guess is they won't be as potent and will be used as gimmicks during certain phases. Nothing forces your dps to do their job better than an OOM aura on healers.

Bashal
08-09-2010, 08:44 AM
...I would also be interested to know how healers feel about the persistent damage aura. From my very limited perspective, most healers I have met do not believe it to be fun. They see it as a chore. Of course, I'm sure there are a percentage that like it because of big recount numbers, but I would believe they are in the minority.

Gives me nice HPS numbers when I chain heal melee/tanks as a shammy... but I'd really rather the mechanic wasn't there. I don't mind less periodic raid damage, like XT's temper tantrum, for example. But the constant aura damage every x seconds for 5-10 minutes of boss fight got old after Sapphiron.

BruisedOoze
08-09-2010, 09:47 AM
If the aura is so light that a single HoT will not only counteract the aura, but result in overheal, then it merely becomes a nuisance. Just use your AoE heals as then they will become more efficient [Chain, CoH, ProM, WG, Holy Nova, Healing Rain, the new paladin AoEs] and your direct heals primarily for spike. While this accomplishes the set goal of abolishing blankets and incorporating triage, it really isn't the best way.

I don't see how this is worse than just flat out abolishing persistent auras (I get to your Re-edit in a bit as the edit is what it pertains to), as it adds an element (spice) to the healing game where you have to be patient with your AoE heals. AoE heal too soon and you overheal and waste a large amount of mana. Wait too long and then you run into a bigger risk of someone dying to spikes.

The only difference between persistent auras and the occasional AoE attack is the latter is reactionary and the former deals with being patient (and a sense of pressure), and a mixture of the two to keep thigns mixed up. I see it as a change in pace and keeping things interesting, and only becomes a nuisance once you start having to blanket the raid with HoTs and Shields. Pressing the AoE heal button on occasions is not an issue, as long as the AoE heal is not the only thing you're doing. At least that's how I feel about it.

Spiritus
08-09-2010, 09:49 AM
I don't see persistent damage auras going away, they are too good of a mechanic in the game. My guess is they won't be as potent and will be used as gimmicks during certain phases. Nothing forces your dps to do their job better than an OOM aura on healers.
Please explain why you think persistent damage auras are too good of a mechanic.

Also, the developers have specifically mentioned that Healers will be rewarded by not going OOM if they are using proper spell selection. They have also stated that healer regen will not be the primary limiting factor during an encounter, if the healers are using proper spell selection.

Persistent damage auras were never meant to run healers out of mana. They were meant to challenge healers with infinite mana. Unless it is a specific fight that is designed as a DPS race against healer mana, which I wouldn't mind, I just don't see how it fits into the new healing model. It certainty shouldn't be on every other boss like in ICC.

Its kinda silly that all of these different baddies in WotLK seemed to have all gone to the same boss school to pick up the same trick. The only one that got it right was Mimi [no surprise because he is arguably the most fun fight ever made], with having a phase with a damage aura.

If you want to move away from the raid blanket mentality, which again is a stated design goal, you must remove the persistent damage aura.

EDIT:

I don't see how this is worse than just flat out abolishing persistent auras (I get to your Re-edit in a bit as the edit is what it pertains to), as it adds an element (spice) to the healing game where you have to be patient with your AoE heals. AoE heal too soon and you overheal and waste a large amount of mana. Wait too long and then you run into a bigger risk of someone dying to spikes.


Because I see it as counter-intuitive for most, and a game that is suppose to be getting more friendly for [new] healers shouldn't require reading a healycraft post on how to most efficiently counteract damage patterns. The general idea is that if someone is taking periodic damage, they should be given a periodic heal. When everyone is taking periodic damage throughout the entire fight, the first reaction is everyone should get a HoT throughout the entire fight. Of course, since HoTs appear to be designed to be expensive in Cata, this will OOM a healer pretty quickly.

AoE damage should be countered by AoE heals. Things like unavoidable cones & voids. They are designed to quickly get a group of people up from taking spike.

Direct Heals are used to counter direct damage. Used primarily on tanks, but also on the raid when a single or a few individuals are taking focused damage as part of the fight mechanic.

As I said, the very light persistent damage aura seems to accomplish the goals of abolishing blankets and incorporating triage. I just find it, from a design perspective, very silly to have had so many bosses with the mechanic in WotLK. I hope, if it is used in cata, that it is sparse.

I can imagine reading the PTR boss abilities from Uldum now:
"XXXX summons a whirling sandstorm dealing XXXXdamage every Xseconds. Aura."
"YYYY summons a swarm of locust dealing XXXXdamage every Xseconds. Aura."
"ZZZZ summons a frogs raining from the sky dealing XXXXdamage every Xseconds.Aura."
"QQQQ summons a frenzied gaggle of firstborn dead babies dealing XXXXdamage every Xseconds. Aura."

Otus
08-10-2010, 08:10 AM
I also played a holy priest in vanilla wow, but I don't have the same nostalgia about it. It was more strategic than today, but it was also very stressful. Some points I remember

- A solid BWL tank had 6,000 or so health. Tanks were constantly getting hit for 50%-75% of their health on a single boss hit.

- This was in part due to the 40-man set up, where you might have 5-8 healers in there. Most of the healers were assigned tank duty, and it became a game of healing at just the right time. Start cast, stop, start again, stop, start again, tank got it let heal land! Do this for 10 minutes, usually standing in place the entire time.

- Blizzard reps once posted that downranking surprised them. They didn't expect epic geared level 60s to be using a level 40 heal as their base cast. Thus began the battle of healers not wanting to care as much about mana, via downranking, and Bliz trying to figure out how to keep healers challenged.

- Healers like new gear too, and that is part of Bliz's problem. As healers geared up, content was quickly marginalized. The next boss would then hit harder, and there would be more raid damage. Couple of raid additions later, you're right back at where we are now.

I like the idea of more strategic healing again. I just don't know if Bliz can pull it off.

Phanuel
08-10-2010, 09:14 AM
I like the idea of more strategic healing again. I just don't know if Bliz can pull it off.

Patchwerk was fun and all at 40 but... I definately don't want healing to return to that level of co-ordinational stress/retarded consumable usage-ness. Happy medium please?