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Uaru
07-27-2010, 06:00 PM
So, I have heard nothing but Marks this and Survival that for endgame raiding--so much to the point that people won't even write guides on how to play a Beast Mastery Hunter in end-game content.

Having leveled and played six Hunters 60-80 since vanilla until now, and raiding with all three specs in both expansions, I was caught by surprise most recently when I dusted off my Ulduar-geared Beast Mastery hunter which I haven't touched since the release of ICC.

Basically, all my 80's were saved to everything, and our guild has grown to the point where we can field a 5th 10-man ICC for the week, and a second 25. They needed a DPS for the second 25, and asked me to bring my Hunter. I told them, blah, he's Beast Mastery and has a 4800 Ulduar Gear Score, and I haven't played him since January.

They said, whatever, bring him anyways.

So, I did.

I noticed much of the gear wasn't even enchanted, nor had gems. I didn't have time to worry about it though, so bought some flasks and headed to ICC.

I did, however, set up some macros for my insta abilities, and chose a good steady rotation.

To my utmost surprise, my Hunter came in 5th place on DPS for the night (3rd in damage), and toppled over a Marks and Surv Hunter, both of which had 5700+ Gearscores.

Baffled, I just couldn't contemplate my Hunter could hit those numbers in such crappy gear. I assumed the other Hunters just weren't playing on the top of their game, and I would do some further testing.

I won drops that night, and was able to make a few upgrades, bumping me up to 5K Gearscore. Now, as we know Marks gem ArP, and Surv gem Agil, but what does a Beast Hunter gem for? Well, after giving it some thought, I found my pet was doing 34% of my DPS, which means I would get the greatest output by using gemming that would transfer to the pet. So I gemmed Attack Power--all of which transfers to the pet.

I only gemmed the new 264 gear I had obtained, as I didn't see the need to waste gems on the lvl 219-232 crap.

Now, I went back into ICC10 and ICC25 to test things out. A few minor tweaks to spec and rotation, and I was overly surprised!

Once again, nearing top of the charts! 10-man, I came in second place only to a mage, and in 25-man, I came in 4th, surpassing a 5900 GS Surv Hunter, and 5600 Marks Hunter. I just couldn't fathom this happening with my peddly 5K GS Beast Mastery Hunter.

I would like for folks to discuss this, as my only guess as to how this is possible is the fact that Beast Mastery Hunters do not have to Gem or gear for haste due to reaching the haste cap with Spec.

Also a recent change to one of our talents giving us a perma 10% damage increase makes raiding as a BM Hunter see some end-game potential.

I found I did much greater DPS using a slower speed Xbow, and stacking tons of Attack Power which transfers to the pet.

There are specific talents to train the pet in to help keep him alive and doing max DPS as well, so there are very few instances in which your pet dies--giving you that static 34% damage per second from your pet alone.

I use a wolf only, because once again, Attack Power buff for both you and him.

I almost feel I can write a guide on successful Beast Mastery Hunter in end-game raiding, and if you guys want that, I will put it together soon.

My goal now is to get my Hunter to 6K GS+ like my other toons, and find out the real potential behind the spec, and proper BiS gearing choices.

If others are dabbling into the fine arts of this once overlooked spec, please let me know.

I might have to reconsider my stance on Marks/Surv as best raiding specs soon.

Discuss.

Destruyen
07-27-2010, 06:45 PM
1. gearscore does not equal skill. yes those other hunters might be in better gear but they could be complete noobs with rotations and not execute them properly. mm and surv will both beat bm given same gear and skill. mm stomps the other 2 specs in bis gear and equal skill.

2. since most of your dps comes from your pet, you don't suffer as big of a penalty as the other 2 hunter specs when dpsing on the move, which many fights in icc involve.

3. those other hunters could have been clickers.

4. improper cd usage compared to yours.

5. lag/latency

again, given equal skill/gear mm will beat surv and bm, while surv is comparable to mm at lower gear levels where mm can't get arp capped. both will beat bm at most all gear levels (leveling and fresh 80 bm is viable).

Uaru
07-27-2010, 06:53 PM
Thing is, these recent guys aren't noobs, although that was my first thought at the first two I grouped with the week prior since I wasn't familiar with their skill. They were next in DPS just behind me. Only classes ahead of me was mages and a ret pally.

Considering I am so out of practice playing a Hunter too, I can't exactly say my skill was the reason I moved so far ahead.

I think part of the problem is people are comparing MM and SURV Gearsets with BM spec, and of course, using their gear sets would not compliment a BM Hunter. Thing is, BM Hunter seems to lean on specifically Attack Power (not Agil or ArP). I don't think many have actually tested that gear style and made it work.

The way I will test it, though, is I will work on getting some top gear, and testing all three specs/gems myself personally, as I know how to play all three specs pretty well. So I will reach a conclusion in a couple of months I suppose.

So far, I am really impressed at reaching such high DPS in such crappy gear (I was using a blue trinket as well, lol).

Time will tell. I really think people just haven't done proper testing on BM. If there's a way to success in the class/spec, I will find it.

Destruyen
07-27-2010, 07:09 PM
it's all based off spreadsheets since it gives the most ideal dps situations, and yes their are different sets used since bm and surv don't need arp cap like mm and all 3 specs gem differently.

by no means am i saying you are wasting your time, i tend to go whack on the dummy for a few hours whenever i feel the need to try something new or try different specs. sometimes i find a hidden gem and sometimes i don't, but knowing that i tried gives me satisfaction.

right now my lvl 78 bm hunter is pretty much stomping every other dps i get in the dungeon finder while leveling using my op corehound pet. i won't change specs once i hit 80 with him but that's because i'm only going to pvp on him and bm is pretty faceroll in pvp.

idk, maybe with the icc 30% buff it changes a little giving more empahsis to your pet's dmg and making bm more in line with surv which is something you could look into. basically how well your pet dmg scales with the icc buff along with your own dmg and seeing if that makes up the dps difference with surv/mm.

just look into it and you might surprise us with a hidden gem.

Uaru
07-27-2010, 08:29 PM
Yeah, I think I should try hitting TOC and seeing if there is a significant difference without the 30% buff.

Since a BM is at haste cap, that might make the 30% buff push BM ahead in ICC.

I'm actually excited to see the differences.

PatrikL
07-28-2010, 04:40 AM
You mind writing some numbers so we know a bit more about how your raids are performing? Not saying they are bad, just curious.

And about click playing, it doesnt always have to be awful. On the more static fights I can semi-click (as in only one or two abilities key bound) and can beat most of our dps'ers with my frost dps offspec spec but then again it does take some fast mouse movement :-)

bigruver
07-28-2010, 10:23 AM
"3. those other hunters could have been clickers."

I love how clickers get a bad rep. I've always been a clicker, and i find nothing wrong with it and i dont find mobility to be an issue, at all. You can move with one hand and kill with the other, just pick which hand you prefer. That being said, I use a ton of macros and mouseovers, and have 4 healers using healbot, so clicking is a must.

blbbax
07-28-2010, 10:30 AM
Yeah, I think I should try hitting TOC and seeing if there is a significant difference without the 30% buff.

Since a BM is at haste cap, that might make the 30% buff push BM ahead in ICC.

I'm actually excited to see the differences.

How can the 30% buff push someone ahead? It's a static 30% buff to your DPS. You did 10k DPS before? You do 13k DPS now. You did 5k DPS before? You do 6.5k DPS now. There's no diminishing returns or any reason for it to effect one class more than another.

It would, as someone else has mentioned, be interesting to know what kind of DPS your are talking about. A quick check of WoL rankings reveals top BM hunters getting nowhere near top MM ones, but as you say they could be itemised wrongly.

MellvarTank
07-28-2010, 10:32 AM
Clickers are people who only use the mouse for abilities instead of keybinds.

Healers are not clickers because they use addons, nor are they classified by this. Usually if a healer isn't using an addon, you can tell by the lag on the incoming heal vs. damage. This isn't always the case, but generally I have found it is in end-game raiding. I have run with a few healers using mouse-over macros and no addon that are freaking amazing though.

Basically what he is saying is that if you click every one of your abilities with your mouse as a DPS class, your DPS will be lower... and it will.

Uaru
07-28-2010, 03:51 PM
I did not record the numbers those nights since I was playing my Sub-sub-sub-sub Alt, lol.

Nonetheless, my curiosity has been peaked as much as the rest, so I will record some this week and relay my final findings soon as I have them.