PDA

View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Healing & ZAM Beta Key Giveaway



Ciderhelm
07-26-2010, 11:31 PM
xMNM1KUuM-k

http://www.tankspot.com/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

ZAM Beta Key Giveaway
Allakhazam is giving away 50 beta keys! Check out their full post here. (http://wow.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=22862)

Wowhead and TankSpot will be starting our beta key giveaways soon, too, so stay tuned!

Mangea
07-27-2010, 12:23 AM
Good lookin' pup! What's his/her name?

Kazeyonoma
07-27-2010, 12:24 AM
NUUUU THE PUPPPY...

;d

Martie
07-27-2010, 12:37 AM
"There's this really interesting thing going on for tanks and dps, but I'm not gonna tell you about it!"

I hate it!
I love it!

Great weekly marmot, really interesting.

Raien
07-27-2010, 12:51 AM
Good lookin' pup! What's his/her name?

That's Jack! He's a cutie and a whiney ass at the same time....

Pers3us
07-27-2010, 12:54 AM
That puppy is pretty awesome! Definitely distracted my internet and caused a raid wipe from me disconnecting, then someone pulling aggro on sindragosa because I was disconnected, and the awesome frost breath that followed.

Anyways I agree with your healing assessment. I never raided in classic but I raided in BC as a holy paladin, and in WotLK as a holy paladin up until Ulduar where I went prot. Now I just can do all 3 specs whatever as needed (although I'm the MT so I don't get to offspec pretty much at all anymore). In BC, I did a lot of cancel casting and flash of light spam on the raid when they needed it if the tank wasn't in danger. Also popping a mana potion when you were at 70-80% mana to have one up 2 minutes from them when you may have needed it was a pretty nice strategy.

Perhaps they were trying to rid the dependence on mana potions by making it so you could only use 1 while in combat and adding replenishment. Back in Naxx and Uld (pre-heroic modes) mana was still kind of an issue, but you could still get away with overhealing a little more than you could in BC. Once the heroic mode gear was acquired, the inflation just really made mana a non-issue. Then it just became a game of getting the heals off as fast as possible and spamming them just in case.

Personally as a person that plays all 3 paladin specs (on top of a couple other classes), I'd love to see how the game play in Cata changes. You can't look at the awesome new aoe heals paladins are getting and go "oh man that's going to be OP" because you probably won't have the mana to use them as much as you would now, and you would just have to use them when the situation calls for it. That seems to be exactly what they're going for in Cataclysm... using the heal that the situation calls for, or running the risk of going oom from bad decisions.

As always... thanks for putting the changes into perspective, Lore.

Apocalypstix
07-27-2010, 04:46 AM
I'm just...still looking for the puppy wheres the puppy?!

Darksend
07-27-2010, 05:17 AM
re: LK healing model

Do you think the way it ended up was there initial design going in or do you think as I do that since they made it only 1 mana pot per fight and they thought it would have a much more dramatic effect on mana so they over-compensated with replenishment and the buffs to innervate allowing it to be used on paladins and shamans, etc.

Sleuth
07-27-2010, 05:35 AM
You've missed a few key points here.

- Downranking healing was done initially to conserve mana. Before Tier 1 item and set bonuses, healing in MC was a problem for mana pools.
- I think there was a period where Blizzard changed ranks to cost *more* mana per lower spell rank, to combat downranking of spells. This changed things a little.
- After that, it was changed (globally) so all ranks of spells cost a % of base mana, which worked towards the same goal as above.

Now, it's much more efficient to cast your top rank spell at all times, as you will get more healing per mana point.

Berzerker
07-27-2010, 05:46 AM
re: LK healing model

Do you think the way it ended up was there initial design going in or do you think as I do that since they made it only 1 mana pot per fight and they thought it would have a much more dramatic effect on mana so they over-compensated with replenishment and the buffs to innervate allowing it to be used on paladins and shamans, etc.

I can't believe that the virtually infinite mana that came about in Wrath was entirely an accident, or they would have fixed it by tweaking the numbers on replenishment. I suspect they came into Wrath wanting to get away from "healer OOM" being the theme of a raid, and just went too far to the other end of the spectrum. Now they've seen that end isn't fun either and move back toward the middle, getting back the decision making without the necessity of number crunching (and hence confusion of) just which rank is your most effective.

daedalus_au
07-27-2010, 05:47 AM
So right, cute animals are the perfect distraction.

Jassinar
07-27-2010, 06:57 AM
There's a puppy! I can't remember anything else he said... :confused:

feralminded
07-27-2010, 07:37 AM
One thing I will actually lament when Wrath healing finally goes is the ability to easily quantify a good healer versus a bad healer. I have been leading raids since MC and one thing that always bothered me is how easily bad Healers have always been able to "hide" in raids. Since day 1 a poorly skilled tank was fairly evident and since the inception of DPS meters, DPS has been under the gun and have improved as a result. Healers, however, have always had a layer of abstraction behind which they could hide with vagaries aplenty to justify any lack of skill. Obviously skilled healers exist and have existed but the level of analysis required to ferret them out has always been fairly intensive up until wrath, and specifically ICC. Since for much of ICC healing has been basically the same as DPS (establish an optimal rotation and nail it), it's been fairly easy to line up two healers and quantitatively analyze who was good and who wasn't.

No doubt in Wrath there will still be good and bad healers and there will still be methods with which to decide who is good and bad but it will again require far more effort to make the analysis than we've enjoyed in the later part of Wrath. As a raid leader this does concern me somewhat because a bad healer causing your raid to wipe is usually one of the more difficult problems to identify and correct on the fly. I mean if the DPS is failing and you hit some kind of enrage timer the problem(s) is/are always evident. If the tank is failing the entire raid immediately knows. If the healer is failing then it becomes muddy very quickly and every excuse in the book comes out "The tank ran out of range", "Someone didn't use a DR cooldown", "Our strategy sucks", "I wasn't given a proper healing assignment", "I had lag", "Someone hurt my feelings", "My class isn't good at this", etc etc ...

I agree the healing changes will make healing more interesting, but as a raid leader I will certainly lament the loss of the ability to quickly and accurately meter/analyze healers. It was nice while it lasted.

Kyoki
07-27-2010, 07:51 AM
You will still be able to tell who is a good healer and who is a bad one. The bad healers will constantly be running out of mana, letting the dps die etc. A good healer will ask if he isnt given a proper healing assignment and everybody else was. They will also say on vent at the time if a tank moves out of range. Its going to be the little things that determine if they are good or not. It will be just as easy but you will have to look at other things and not just the meters.

I never liked the meters in icc anyways because if healer A and B are focusing on the tank and C is on off tank and say D is on the raid you cant tell their skill just by the meters.

Dozern
07-27-2010, 08:35 AM
Im personally hating this change. I played a resto shaman thrue classic cause i was unfortunate enough to pick a class at launch i knew nothing about. Healing classic felt like a second jobb for me, being 110% focused on my raid frames chugging down mana pots and raid leaders constantly moving shamans around from mana tide totem.

Fact is, classic healing was a massive fail and in my point of view its 10 step backwards doing it all over again. We only downranked because mana pools wasnt good enough for the encounters. popping pots and rune stones moving shamans with tide around and down ranking was bad game design. And quite frankly im surprised they now think thats good design.

I still play my resto shaman from time to time and i usally go close to oom on normal fights. But then again im haste stacked. Never done HM's with him but im pretty shure id go oom on those.
Meh maybee i like games to be fun or easymode if you wanna call it that.

Mwawka
07-27-2010, 10:41 AM
One thing I will actually lament when Wrath healing finally goes is the ability to easily quantify a good healer versus a bad healer. I have been leading raids since MC and one thing that always bothered me is how easily bad Healers have always been able to "hide" in raids. Since day 1 a poorly skilled tank was fairly evident and since the inception of DPS meters, DPS has been under the gun and have improved as a result. Healers, however, have always had a layer of abstraction behind which they could hide with vagaries aplenty to justify any lack of skill. Obviously skilled healers exist and have existed but the level of analysis required to ferret them out has always been fairly intensive up until wrath, and specifically ICC. Since for much of ICC healing has been basically the same as DPS (establish an optimal rotation and nail it), it's been fairly easy to line up two healers and quantitatively analyze who was good and who wasn't.

No doubt in Wrath there will still be good and bad healers and there will still be methods with which to decide who is good and bad but it will again require far more effort to make the analysis than we've enjoyed in the later part of Wrath. As a raid leader this does concern me somewhat because a bad healer causing your raid to wipe is usually one of the more difficult problems to identify and correct on the fly. I mean if the DPS is failing and you hit some kind of enrage timer the problem(s) is/are always evident. If the tank is failing the entire raid immediately knows. If the healer is failing then it becomes muddy very quickly and every excuse in the book comes out "The tank ran out of range", "Someone didn't use a DR cooldown", "Our strategy sucks", "I wasn't given a proper healing assignment", "I had lag", "Someone hurt my feelings", "My class isn't good at this", etc etc ...

I agree the healing changes will make healing more interesting, but as a raid leader I will certainly lament the loss of the ability to quickly and accurately meter/analyze healers. It was nice while it lasted.

I can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement. The bottom line is that what separates a good healer from a bad is not how much healing they put out, but are they healing the right people with the right spell at the right time. Trying to top healing meters is not necessarily effective healing. Doing your assigned job and not letting people die is. In the new model, there will be much better ways to judge a healer, it just requires a little more digging. I play a resto druid and when I'm in a raid with other trees, I don't look at healing numbers as much as I do spell selection. For instance, if I see a tree that never uses Swiftmend (and there are lots of them), I use that as more of a indication than pure HPS numbers.

The model right now has escalated with every content patch so healing has become about spamming a few buttons to keep up with the massive incoming damage to both raid and tanks. It's not about decision making as much as it is about pressing as many buttons as fast as you can. I don't really want my healing to feel like DPS'ing and in a lot of ways it has become that. Press your buttons as fast as you can and push out as much HPS as you can. With the change healing becomes a decision making process and I like that. I like the thought that I have to learn a fight from a damage pattern point of view, learn when I should innervate or pot, learn when I can hold off on a heal to get a better heal:mana ratio and when I need to heal now, learn how long I can hold of on Wild Growth so that I can maximize the value of it. These are all very compelling changes for me and makes healing a distinct niche again. I think all these factors will actually make it much easier to separate good healers from bad, it'll just require a little more understanding of what healing is about.

Mačl
07-27-2010, 10:41 AM
Classic healing was fail if you wasn't a priest same as classic tanking was fail if you weren't a warrior.

BREAKING NEWS!
Lore is growing a mustache(and is right, again).

Healing was much more cerebral when it came to planning you mana. My best example is Anub'rekhan in classic. There were basically two assignments. Tank healing(which involved running after the tank during Insect Swarm...most of the youngins don't know you had to do that) and the other one was raid healing while spikes and adds and bugs were all over the place. For a raid healer this meant a period of calm during the boss nuking phase. I was usually assigned to raid healing and here's how it went.
I used my most spirit heavy gear(yeah, I'm quite sure I've mentioned Arlokk's snake staff out of ZG somewhere...glowing green) and during the boss nuking phase I wanded. While watching like an eagle if somebody tried something stupid. During the add nuking phase I exploded in a flash of holy light, pumping out nearly all my mana in nearly only one phase. Eat felfood, quaff mana potion. Repeat. Loot boss. This was a very hard encounter where many, many, many things could go wrong(and did).
This was actually exciting.
And we looked down on healers who had more than 30% overheal.

In WotLK, the button mashers got hold of the healing game, unsurprisingly sucked at managing mana but were great at HPS(and reaching levels of 60%+ overheal without repercussions). I think (actually hope) those players will hate healing in Cata, but in my opinion with that type of mindset they are better off as DPS anyway. This expansion made me despise Paladin healers and anybody who tried to argue there was any skill whatsoever involved when they point out their HPS. Nope. 60% overheal, 0 decurses, fail throughout.

I know I will be back in my element with the next expansion and I really think Blizz remembers what was good about healing in vanilla. Just not the farming felfoods and mana potions. That wasn't.

....ooooh! Look! A puppy!

feralminded
07-27-2010, 10:47 AM
You will still be able to tell who is a good healer and who is a bad one. The bad healers will constantly be running out of mana, letting the dps die etc. A good healer will ask if he isnt given a proper healing assignment and everybody else was. They will also say on vent at the time if a tank moves out of range. Its going to be the little things that determine if they are good or not. It will be just as easy but you will have to look at other things and not just the meters.

Nothing is as easy as looking at meters and until the later half of this expansion looking at meters for healing was more or less completely useless. Indeed even now you have to be careful when looking at them but this is true of even DPS (e.g. can't cleanly compare ranged to melee on Blood Queen). Of course meters are not perfect but they are quick and dirty and useful for DPS ... and have as of late been useful for healing (indeed not perfect, but at least useful). Now they're going back to useless and it will be back to in-depth WoL analysis to truly pick out the horribad and the awesome. Having lead raids and analyzed performance in BC and Vanilla I can tell you it was a nice change while it lasted to have very easy access to relatively accurate analysis of healing performance.

Of course all of that applies mostly to 25s, obviously most analysis is redundant and unnecessary in 10 mans (it's very quickly obvious who isn't pulling their weight). Anyhow it's a small point, and since I do often times play a healer I am happy to have the opportunity to be a bit less spammy and a bit more selective about my healing ... all of my comments thusfar have really just been the raid leader in me crying out ... I freely acknowledge I am looking forward to healing the next expansion.

Mačl
07-27-2010, 10:49 AM
Double posting to reply to the subject of bad healers.

In WotLK it was quite easy to spot a bad healer.
Top of the Healing Done list.
0 decurses.
60% overheal.
Stuck to his assignment(wasting everybodies time for 60% of the time).
People dying left and right.

HPS(which is a much aBS metric as DPS, total healing done/damage done are much more important) isn't the right way to measure if a healer lives up to it. You also have to watch overheal(which roughly and inaccurately translates to "should have healed somebody else or used the wrong spell"...you'll have to break down overheal to the individual spells involved). You also have to watch if the "healer" has yet discovered that debuff aren't actually good for the debuffee(read, he decursed). You also have to watch if the healer can manage his mana and keep his calm when there is no healing needed. Only timing and choice of healing target is hard to measure. Effectiveness isn't. And HPS doesn't equate to effectiveness.

feralminded
07-27-2010, 10:54 AM
I can't tell you how much I disagree with this statement. Slow down, I never said this was the "best" way to heal or that I enjoyed it ... I simply said it made analysis of performance easier. That said my 25 man guild has cleared all of ICC HM and our raid healers pretty much just smash out HPS as much as possible (and the tank healers just smash out heals). Sure there's *some* finesse to it but it's not some mystical art as most healers want people to believe. It never was, just before it was more strategic as you danced in and out of FSR and cast-canceled or downranked (Healing Touch Rank 4 ... I was a druid healer). Yeah it was a different game and I too liked it better back then ... I was not making a statement about which way was better I was simply stating that as a raid leader its much easier to make a quick and dirty analysis via meters than having to dig deeper to inspect quality. Quantitative analysis is much simpler ... that was my only point.

I am very happy about the changes ... can't say that enough ... and I'm glad Lore breaks them down for all of us to haggle over.

Mwawka
07-27-2010, 11:48 AM
Slow down, I never said this was the "best" way to heal or that I enjoyed it ... I simply said it made analysis of performance easier. That said my 25 man guild has cleared all of ICC HM and our raid healers pretty much just smash out HPS as much as possible (and the tank healers just smash out heals). Sure there's *some* finesse to it but it's not some mystical art as most healers want people to believe. It never was, just before it was more strategic as you danced in and out of FSR and cast-canceled or downranked (Healing Touch Rank 4 ... I was a druid healer). Yeah it was a different game and I too liked it better back then ... I was not making a statement about which way was better I was simply stating that as a raid leader its much easier to make a quick and dirty analysis via meters than having to dig deeper to inspect quality. Quantitative analysis is much simpler ... that was my only point.

I am very happy about the changes ... can't say that enough ... and I'm glad Lore breaks them down for all of us to haggle over.

You know, you may be right. I may have been reacting to the fact that I hate that healing meters can be used to judge healers. As I said in my previous post, it makes healing into another form of DPS'ing and I don't like that. I can honestly say that the most fun I have healing is if something out of the ordinary happens and I end up having to watch my mana (I play a little game with myself where I challenge myself to never use my innervate). It's way more satisfying to successfully heal an encounter with this variable added than to just spam away rejuvenations and wild growths (though I do use my other spells situationally) and rack up the HPS. I noticed one poster noted that overhealing is a good judge of healers, but with the way things are at the moment, overhealing just means you aren't sitting around doing nothing. If mana isn't a concern, overhealing isn't a good barometer of skill. It should be, but right now it isn't.

Spiritus
07-27-2010, 11:51 AM
I have to say that a "quick and dirty" quantitative analysis of HPS meters is the wrong way to go, especially for a raid leader, and especially for a raid leader that has healing experience. You say that you disagree with the "smash" style of healing, yet you use it as a metric of analysis. You cannot have cake with a chaser of pie.

There have been many times in ICC where I smashed the HPS[+APS(absorb)] meter. Absolutely annihilated it. I mean, I'm talking like I'm at 15k H+APS and the next person is at 6k. The total H+A meter shows the same discrepancy. Rarely, however, on those fights did I actually feel like I saved anyone's life. That someone isn't licking floor because of my healing.

On the flip side, there have been times where I was #4 or #5 on the meters, but I can point to multiple specific instances in a single encounter where I, alone, saved a life. Also, I'm perennially on the top of the dispel meter, which is usually inversely proportional to my H+APS.

The acme of skill for a healer always has been, and always will be how many lives did you, personally, save.

Let me put it this way, using the method of personal anecdote. I have been in raids where a raid healer was "smashing" the meters by performing a generic blanket rotation. They were on one side of the room, and I was on the other. I notice a raider starting to dip low on the opposite side of the room, I let it go for 1sec, and didn't see a DH go off on him. I then had to run across the entire room to catch said raider with a PW:S @ 5% health, pump a penance and FH to get him back up to full health.

Can you guess who was at the top of the meter that fight? Would you label that person as a more valuable healer?

Mwawka
07-27-2010, 12:10 PM
The acme of skill for a healer always has been, and always will be how many lives did you, personally, save.

There is nothing quite as satisfying as the moment where you know you saved someone from dying. However, it is really tough to ferret out which healers are best at this, without spending hours going over every line of a raid log. I believe the healers know who it is tho. I certainly can tell when one of the healers in a group I run with pulls someone from the brink and usually have a good idea of who did it as well. I think that is just one of the pieces of being a great healer though. I can't count the number of times over the last year that I've swiftmended someone from the brink of death, yet I see trees who never use the spell, yet still pull great HPS. Can you really be a great healer when you leave such a great tool in the toolbox? I would argue no. I am sure that I have prevented wipes by using this spell, yet it doesn't pump my HPS, so in that way I do agree with you Spiritus.

Spiritus
07-27-2010, 12:20 PM
I think it is quite difficult to ascertain who is the best healer with the meters and parses in the current game, which is all the more reason to discard them as a tool of measurement.

Now, in Cata, if its anything like bc/vanilla, the job of understanding who is the best healer will be simple. Just take healing done and compare it to overheal. Those at the top of healing done, and the bottom of overheal, will most likely be your most competent healers.

Teggon
07-27-2010, 08:49 PM
I personally like the fact Blizzard are making so many changes. So many other games launch expansions and the new content becomes old and dated really fast. Cataclysm looks like it will be value for money as you'll have to relearn how to play the game.

On the subject of Lore's latest update Healers will no longer sit there hitting buttons and not care about mana. We healers will now have to think and time our heals better. This will also mean DPS will no longer be able to play "WHO HAS THE BIGGEST DICK GAME" and actually watch their aggro. Currently DPS players and many raids are only concerned about numbers. Now they will looking for players who know how to actually play their class. Tanks also will have to know when to pop cool downs during certain periods in a boss fight to reduce incoming damage. All this has been lost in WOTLK as healers have been able to spam huge and constant heals throughout the boss fights.

Virtually Blizzard are saying you will now be able to identify Good and Bad players. Yes you top the DPS charts at one point but spend the next 90% of the time eating dirt. No ones health dropped 2 mins into the fight but everyone died after as I ran out of mana and couldn't heal.

Good bye Gear Score and say hello to experience and knowledge !!!

Exaltian
07-27-2010, 11:11 PM
My only concern with these changes is that I hope that Blizzard is moving away from the 'Everyone in the raid takes 80% damage, oh and by the way just for fun I have an AOE poison for you as well'. I don't mind making healing a thinking game, but then there needs to be time to think put into the battles. If we need to be concerned about mana totals, level of boss damage and whether or not the gnome in the corner is wearing a properly colorful feather boa, then the boss insta-smacks need to be curtailed. I didn't start playing WOW until Lick King came out so I have nothing to compare this too but initial battles in Icecrown mana was an issue because we were casting like crazy to keep everyone alive. Now with the 30% buff that has changed but still.

Kahmal
07-28-2010, 12:20 AM
My concern is that I'm just confused on Blizzard intentions these days. WoTLK you can't argue that things just got so damn easy. Now there making Tanking and Healing challenging once again it sounds like. This is fine when in a good guild, but god I can only imagine pugs >.<.

Tanks wont be carried by MD and Trix anymore, and faceroll tanking AoE trash is also gone.
DPS will need to relearn how to not break CC and watch there threat more often.
Healing imo is the hardest thing to do in-game since your not just worried about your own well being, so making it strategic again will be interesting.

I just really wonder how all the "Wrath Raiders" will adjust to this. I personally started Healing on a Paladin a few weeks before Wrath came out and sucked at it. (until I got Grid and Clique) then spamming Holy Light got easy. Now I have to actually thing. Sounds fun.

Baerkuda
07-28-2010, 09:31 AM
Ok I am a long time reader but first time post. I started playing just after the Linch King came out so I have never been apart of an expansion before. After reading the new talent trees and everything that Blizzard is changing I have a concern that you have not hit on yet. I get that healers are going to have to be alot smarter with there heals because of the mana issue(if your a good healer now I personally thing we will have the easist time converting to the new system) but looking at the Priest spec as discipline there are talents in there that really concern me if mana is going to be an issue why are they giving us something that is going to force us to become offesive in a raid? I don't come from a Hardcore Raiding guild but we try to make do with what we have and I run as a disc. preist tank healer even in the crazy buff inside ICC you don't get that much time to be "offensive" but the benefits of this buff seam to be a must have thing concidering how important mana regen is going to be. I guess Im asking what is blizzards thinking behind this am I not understanding things correctly. Thanks in advance and keep up the good work. Baerkuda Shu' halo realm

Spiritus
07-28-2010, 10:11 AM
I, personally, in ICC, can find time during most fights to throw a little offense. I do so to keep myself from going crazy.

Now, in general, WotLK is not a place where healers just have free moments to stand around a stare at things, especially with everyone's favorite damage aura. However, in parts of bc and most of vanilla, there were times when you did actually that in order to hit the FSR to regen. Since the developers are attempting to go back to that model, but wanted to remove the FSR, they needed something to replace it. Hence why healers now have "damage to mana" abilities. Things a little slow? Throw some pew pew and get some mana back, and in the priest's case, a really nice healing buff.

Now, before someone says something, yes I know that currently it doesn't feel like healers have the time to cast damaging spells. For many 5man encounters I would agree with you. Keep in mind that numbers are not being balance at the moment, just mechanics. I fully expect things to be tunned differently during release. I mean, let me put it this way, as of the last time I ran Stonecore, our party wiped several times on the 2nd to last boss. Now, several of those wipes were due to some funky connection issues of one of our DPS, but at least one was due to my inability to keep up the party [and yes, some damage could have been avoided, but that has never stymied me in the past]. I firmly believe if the boss were left in as is [meaning when I last saw him], PuGs would leave Stonecore upon zoning in a la Oculus.

Long story short, I do believe that healers will have the time to throw "smites for mana" because we use to have the time to have a very engaging staring contest with the wall in the middle of a fight. At least now it will feel like you have something to do while there is a lull in healing and you need to regen for the next burst.

Sinuviel
07-30-2010, 06:40 AM
This is in reply to the vid, not the comments that have followed:

Although I have no experience with how the healing was in classic WoW, I do know the healing game from a holy and now disc priest point of view since TBC. I agree on your way of viewing the TBC way of healing, and I must say I enjoyed it more than I have Wrath so far. In TBC as a priest you would be doing a constant 5second rule mana dance to not run out of mana, although near the end I must say I had little issues with my mana.

According to you the same thing, or even worse, happened in Wrath after the introduction of replenishment. I have to disagree with that. You see, together with the introduction of replenishment, Blizzard nerfed other ways of mana regen. For priests, the 5 second rule lost all value. At the current gear levels, as a disc priest my mana is fine most of the times because of the way I get back mana from shields, but this doesn't mean that I do not have to think about and plan out my Hymn of Hope and Shadowfiend usage, together with the occassional potion.

You point out that cataclysm will emphasize that more, but I don't know a class that doesn't think about their mana cooldowns and how to weave them in through a fight. If they would not use them, they will go oom. Furthermore, you are thinking in terms of normal mode ICC perhaps, but once in heroic mode fights, mana is pushed to the test without a doubt. On top of that, we currently are sporting a 30% ICC buff. I'd say, try to go through heroic icc without the buff and see how healers mana holds it own. I'm certain that it will be put to a serious test.

I am interested in how things will work in cata. The current issue is that if you miss a splitsecond heal on a tank, he might be a goner. Having a bit more breathing room, but on the other hand having to lower your overheal, will be a welcome breath of fresh air into the healing game. It will distinguish the good from the bad healers purely by overheal & how much mana they got left in the tank. I've always healed from the standpoint of having to be able to heal eternally through a fight. This should fit that style perfectly, if they execute it well.

ermik
07-31-2010, 12:13 AM
BTW Last frame of Marmot says:
secret secret

i got a secret

Khilbron
07-31-2010, 03:07 AM
I cannot believe i am just now getting around to listening to this. Hell i was even in vent with Lore when he said he was uploading it. *slaps self in face*

Yggdrasil
08-03-2010, 04:30 AM
I think one thing a lot of people forget is in Wrath really a lot of these actions weren't because healers were trying to top meters, or trying to peek HPS but because when you have a vast majority of your fights using massively powerful raid wide auras of damage it is what you HAD to do to prevent the raid wipe. Or that throughout the course of a fight a MASSIVE AoE strike would/could nearly cripple the entire raid on a nicely fixed set scheduled. The game design favored, no, forced that style of play. Trust me I play a resto druid and the fact that I have to keep up all my HoTs on 2-3 tanks and rejuv up on the maximum number of players in the raid at nearly all times isn't my idea of a thrilling good time. Even if it usually means I get to break peoples ankles on charts. Hell I have destroyed 2 keyboards and 3 mouses this expansion due to that. The ends simply justify the means in these cases sadly enough.

Charts are usually only effective to use healers based on fight to fight and directly compared same class to same class combined with comprehension of assignments given. It takes a little more creative thinking also though. As a healer lead for 2 expansions now over 2 guilds I tend to look at things like survivability, ability to fallow instructions, and yes throughput. Also taking a look at time stamps of tank deaths. A good healer will modify his game during times of tank distress. Did the resto druid toss some nourishes his way, a SM, or a NS + HT or did he simply keep putting rejuv's up across the raid? Did the disc priest stop bubble spamming and throw the penance? Things like that which show adjustment to the situation at hand that works outside the realm of pure assignments (with that you have to see what were tank healers doing, and how fast the tank died etc). Something that may mean your not 12k HPS for a moment to make the raid continue. Overhealing doesn't matter to me and never has as long as people were staying alive and the given healer wasn't running out of mana. Yes, of course that started to mean a little less in BC and then a whole lot less in Wrath. But still plays a role in my head while I am making judgments on say a healer app.

Halandir
08-03-2010, 12:39 PM
any chance this vid will be uploaded to the download server?

Verg
08-04-2010, 03:38 AM
As a dps, who has a very casual healing alt (who has healed some very minor raids), I am actually excited about this return to certain "vanilla" healing thought processes. This may sound strange, but I am a rare dps who does not enjoy the fact that all I have to do is plant, complete a rotation, move out of fire and repeat. What I see this change really exposing are all the dps who spammed and topped meters, while relying on the healers' "infinite" mana pool to keep them alive through their stupidity. In fact, dps became so boring for me, that I have actually stopped raiding for the moment.

A lot of people are probably thinking...why don't you just become a healer then, if you like this change soooo much? Well, I just might when Cataclysm rolls around. :)

unigolyn
08-04-2010, 03:49 AM
This will also mean DPS will no longer be able to play "WHO HAS THE BIGGEST DICK GAME" and actually watch their aggro.

No. Just no.

This is not a desirable direction to go in. There is nothing complicated about a tank maintaining maximum TPS on a boss, and forcing DPS to "tone it down" because the tank's gear is lacking is just a really annoying way to deal with things. The tank is being penalized for things beyond his control, and the DPS is penalized for doing their job well.

DPS is fun when you get to do your job, which is dealing damage. It's not really a "who has the biggest dick" game, except on glorified test dummies like Patchwerk. In a well-designed, mobile fight, with intermittent "burn phases", the highest DPS is generally the most skilled at minimizing downtime and managing their cooldowns and resources properly. That's fun. There's absolutely nothing fun about "oh I guess I don't get to push any buttons for the next 20 seconds".

How would you, as a healer, feel about fights where you couldn't heal for extended periods of time because you were constantly riding the tank's threat? How would you feel if raids kept backup healers whose job it was to not to heal or DPS at all until big burst happened, so they'd be low on the threat list? How would you feel wearing that particular dunce cap?

Threat should only be a concern during pulls or new adds. That's the fun solution for both tanks and DPS.

DPS can be hindered in other, more interesting ways, like insta-kill hazards, CC duties, positioning, etc.

P.S. Threat can be an interesting mechanic on certain fights, such as "make sure the offtank(s) is(are) above the melee or bad things happen". But making it a constant issue is kind of like making every single fight a Vezax clone for healers - "heal for a bit then go stand in this crap to regen".

Darksend
08-04-2010, 08:05 AM
Threat should only be a concern during pulls or new adds. That's the fun solution for both tanks and DPS.


Please explain to me how only having to worry about threat the first 10 seconds of a fight is fun for tanks.

Fun for me is every single dps being at 95% of my threat for the entire boss fight, forcing me to work harder and have a perfect rotation.

Spiritus
08-04-2010, 10:15 AM
How would you, as a healer, feel about fights where you couldn't heal for extended periods of time because you were constantly riding the tank's threat? How would you feel if raids kept backup healers whose job it was to not to heal or DPS at all until big burst happened, so they'd be low on the threat list? How would you feel wearing that particular dunce cap?

In Cata, healers will have something similar to "having to watch threat" and its called "having to watch mana." While DPS may be limited by a tank with a poor rotation or lacking gear [by poor itemization or tier level], a healer will be limited by poor movement, positioning, and defensive CD usage from DPS and tanks.

In Cata, a raid will be like an enormous clock. It only works if all the little cogs mesh together. A clock must be clean, well lubricated, and wound tight....

The WotLK king raid, in comparison, is about as close to 10/25people playing a single player game in the same instance as one can get and still call it an MMORPG [with the exception of a few HMs].