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View Full Version : Tanking Warrior threat issue with off tank



beefyjerk
07-26-2010, 09:27 AM
Lately i been having threat issues with druid off tanks. i dont have issues with the dps. i can jus use vig and be fine. im in a 10man raiding guild currently doin heroic ICC. i been having some issues with the OT eventually pulling threat off me. mainly on blood queen and sometimes marrowgar. i do what i'm suppose to (so i think) to stay atop of threat. i'm maybe starting to think this out of my control. but i dont see anyone else from what i've researched with this problem. His dps output is definitely higher than mine. hes usually anywhere from 700-1k dps higher than me.

heres my armory:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Akama&n=Beefstreet

atm i'm under the expertise cap, which could be a big part of it. was thinking of maybe goin back to my normal facelifter for the extra expertise, but that would still hold me under the cap.

our raid grp consists of:
Holy Pally
Holy Priest
Resto Druid
Frost DK
Arc Mage
Spriest
and 2 locks

its obviously not the end of the world if a tank is the one to pull threat. but if theres something in my control to reach higher TPS that i'm missing, than i would like to do so. So any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Dreadski
07-26-2010, 09:29 AM
The druid needs to pull his epeen out of his mouth for one thing. Post your rotation for the second thing.

beefyjerk
07-26-2010, 09:38 AM
nah the druid is a good dude. but SS > Rev > shockwave > dev (glyphed) ofc while spamming HS.

MellvarTank
07-26-2010, 09:53 AM
Vig the offtank on marrowgar and BQL.

Tell him to watch his threat. As an Offtank, it's your JOB not to pull the boss.

Dreadski
07-26-2010, 10:01 AM
nah the druid is a good dude. but SS > Rev > shockwave > dev (glyphed) ofc while spamming HS.

Good dude or not, he needs to back his threat off if he is assigned an offtank role for a specific fight.

Caine
07-26-2010, 11:50 AM
Good dude or not, he needs to back his threat off if he is assigned an offtank role for a specific fight.

QFT. If a tank needs to back down on threat, they should do so. The problem would be completely different if it you had dps pulling ahead of you threat wise.

In my experience, all tanks are not created equal when it comes to threat generation. Pallies and druids in particular can generate threat at an astounding rate, even when compared to DK's and warriors of similar gear. In the end it doesn't matter as the OT can always throttle thier threat to stay matched with the MT

Insahnity
07-26-2010, 12:50 PM
There are things a druid can do for threat without significantly altering their DPS, specifically FFF. It's a metric tonne of threat, without significant DPS boosts if it's used on CD rather then before it falls off (lasts for 5 minutes, 6 sec cooldown). Felhoof covers this here (http://wowthinktank.blogspot.com/2009/05/druidthe-net-threat-value-of-faerie.html). If they remove that and mangle only when it is about to fall off, your threat drops drastically, reduced to maul and swipe (i'd say about 60% of max TPS). Of course, this really doesn't address the main issue, the little wanker isn't backing off. When I need to back off threat, I auto-attack, keeping up on FFF and Mangle debuffs, as well as Lacerate stacks.

With Paladins, you can weave in other silly crap into your 969 rotation just so you don't break the rhythm, for example, renew your sacred shield instead of a 9 second DPS ability, or start to pay attention to hands (go through all your hands, like Hand of Sacrifice your tank buddy, Hand of Salv the highest DPS even if they don't need it, etc.). Again, if it's a little epeen piss-ant, you have a different issue.

But really, you should take this as a challenge to improve your rotation, unless the OT is taunting somewhere to piggyback and then go on. There's a mod (the name escapes me) which warns you when a taunt goes off, who did it, and what was taunted. If you see that happening and there isn't supposed to be a tank swap, go cut off his furry balls.

beefyjerk
07-26-2010, 01:33 PM
I guess the general consensus here makes sense that the druid should back off. But I do see it as a challenge, thats why i'm here seeing if theres something i'm missing. but doesn't seem to be the case. Thanks for all the feedback. Greatly appreciated!

Scyla
07-26-2010, 01:42 PM
What I usually do if the off tank produces to much treat. Let him tank the boss. In the 10 man group of my alt there is a frost DK that can produce tons and tons of threat so I let him tank Bloodqueen, Dethwhisper and Marrowgar. On all other bosses he starts tanking so I can taunt and have a nice threat buffer.

I know that I can hold aggro against every dps player in this group so no need to be offended.

That said if the off tank can't tank the boss he needs to understand that his role in this fight is to be the off tank and not producing threat.

Insahnity
07-26-2010, 02:01 PM
I guess the general consensus here makes sense that the druid should back off. But I do see it as a challenge, thats why i'm here seeing if theres something i'm missing. but doesn't seem to be the case. Thanks for all the feedback. Greatly appreciated!

Actually, you are. The druid shouldn't HAVE to back off, that's why he isn't. You are missing a report on your rotation.

I find it very hard to believe at your gearing levels that druid is actually ripping threat. He may ride your ass a lot, but even if it was a DK in full 277 and shadowmourne, you can still hold your own for quite a while.

Scyla
07-26-2010, 02:04 PM
Posted his Rotation here.


nah the druid is a good dude. but SS > Rev > shockwave > dev (glyphed) ofc while spamming HS.

Errvalunia
07-26-2010, 02:15 PM
In general in our guild if there isn't a need for switching and taunting off eachother, both tanks just go for it (they both kind of have to go balls to the wall to beat out our threatwhore fury warrior and his beastly DPS) and whoever has aggro has aggro. Which is usually the warrior on bosses and the paladin on trash. The only boss where they don't switch off or have different assignments where they're careful is BQL, where our paladin makes sure not to pull off the warrior (because the warrior does more DPS if he's getting beaten on, where the paladin will just use all the same abilities either way).

In general though: if the druid is told that he is number 2, he needs to reduce his threat output. We ask it of DPS, we can ask it of tanks as well.

Insahnity
07-26-2010, 02:26 PM
Posted his Rotation here.

Gah. Caught @ TL;DR. *Extracts foot from mouth*

I actually don't use SW on single targets. It does no innate threat, bosses can't be stunned, so why bother. Try substituting with a revenge or failing that a devastate. And I'm assuming you are on top of procs in the order of

1) S&B Proc
2) Revenge Proc
3) Ret Pally stole your tanking lewtz, you are now enraged.

Creelos
07-26-2010, 03:15 PM
I agree with Insahnity, drop SW from your single target threat rotation and stay on top of your procs.

Another thing you can do if you aren't already is make sure to use Shield Block on the pull for the extra SS damage and time it's further use to line up with SS coming of CD.


A side note on the expertise

I have epeen contests with my off tanks all the time, I think it just makes us better at our jobs. From this I have found that 26 expertise is optimal for producing max threat if and only if your rotation is spot on. But if you have a Lastword use it instead of the Facelifter the 100% up time of the 100 strength proc is great for threat.

If your main concern is threat you may want to consider having mongoose on whatever weapon you choose for your threat stick. What you enchant your tank weapon with is personal choice and not game breaking.

beefyjerk
07-27-2010, 06:59 AM
OK i will drop SW and see how that goes. I do stay up on my procs, in the order as u stated.

@ Creebos
I actually have Shield Block macro'd to my SS:
#showtip Shield Slam
/cast Shield Block
/stopcasting
/cast Shield Slam

so i never miss when SB is up. and Unfortunately i haven't had much success at getting Last Word.

@ Insahnity
I agree, the druid shouldn't have to back off. I feel as that i should be able to hold aggro no matter how hard he tries. I'm jus baffled by this whole thing cuz in 25mans or any raids where my off tank is not a druid, i have no problems. I have no problems with pallys, DKs or even other warriors. Just druids, two in particular. But i will take into consideration all the advice here and see if anything changes.

Aggathon
07-27-2010, 08:43 AM
eww bad no bad no shield block macro.

You need to be able to use shield block when you need it, not on every cooldown. Since it is both a great offensive cooldown and a great defensive cooldown you need to save it for when you need it for one of those two situations.

Also: put vig on the druid? Problem solved.

Dreadski
07-27-2010, 09:20 AM
If he's fighting for threat after being designated the offtank he'll probably just click it off like every other blank blank blank blank in the world....

Aggathon
07-27-2010, 10:38 AM
that's why you've gotta be sneaky, have people stand on top of him at the begining so he can't see the graphic or just randomly refresh it mid fight =P.

Dreadski
07-27-2010, 10:47 AM
I loved putting it on warriors though, they can't tell if SnB just procced or if vig was on them, unless they are clever enough to monitor specific buffs....which most puggers aren't. Have to really sneaky in a guild run though if they are that epeenish, which is detrimental to good guild play...

grizlee
07-27-2010, 01:44 PM
I don't think this is an either or but rather a both/and solution. If the ot needs to not get threat from you then they should scale back for the good of the raid. However, you should do all you can to not make him have to make that call. Make sure you are working on your rotation and getting better and improving anything you can to give him more room to use his full rotation.

If it's a fight that doesn't really need an OT, have him go kitty if survivability isn't an issue for him.

Creelos
07-27-2010, 04:08 PM
eww bad no bad no shield block macro.

You need to be able to use shield block when you need it, not on every cooldown. Since it is both a great offensive cooldown and a great defensive cooldown you need to save it for when you need it for one of those two situations.

I agree, my suggestions were for maximizing tps.

If you don't already, watch your threat meter and see if the druid just jumps ahead of you, which indicate a taunt, or steadily climbs to the point he overtakes your threat. Bears tend toward really high sustained threat over time and not initial burst threat unless they beserk on the pull which IIRC they want to wait until they are into their rotation before using beserk for max sustained tps.

I am a big advocate of tanks producing the most dps they are capable of as long as it does not sacrifice their tps or survivability. So if the druid is just naturally out threating you over time talk to him and explain why it is best for you to be able to revenge while tanking and like it has been suggested put vig on him.

If you don't have a disc priest, I assume no BoSanc since three tanks in ICC 10 is well......the druid will also get the most out of the 3% damage reduction.