View Full Version : Tanking Aesthetic Paladin Tank Talent Dilemna
07-23-2010, 04:13 PM
I've been studying many different varieties of paladin tank talent trees. Many are great, some aren't, but most have a lot in common. At this point, I have no threat generation issues, no survivability issues (short of certain H-ICC disasters that can happen), and really nothing I *should* change in my build.
However, I'm at an impass regarding exchanging 2 sets of talents in the Prot Tree for 2 in the Ret tree for enhanced Threat generation. Not for any real point other than to find something perfect.
My concerns are:
Divinity (5pts) - Our healers don't really need the 5% healing increase. It's nice, but I could lose it and they probably wouldn't notice.
Redoubt (3pts) - A 10% chance to gain 30% block rating for 5 blocks and an additional 400 block value seems totally worthless to me, as getting hit for 20k isn't uncommon.
In Exchange for:
Conviction (5pts) 5% increased critical hit chance. HoR crits = Monster Threat
Crusade (3pts) 3/6% increased damage dealt based on target. Usually 6% on top of that.
I see a lot of Paladin tanks with Conviction/Crusade, usually at the expense of Seals of the Pure, which if I make this trade, I'll also be able to keep. And even though it's not really needed, I'd like to see that kind of uber threat generation in action.
Any input on this is appreciated. I'm very tempted to make this swap, but I wanted to get other opinions on the matter before I did.
07-23-2010, 04:31 PM
I think redoubt is definitely worth it. Not only does the block value increase your threat output, it's also a decent amount of damage reduction from melee attacks. (Think around 1.5-2% against 30k swings, grows in potency as swings do less damage. Remember, not only do you block for more, you block more blows as well.)
Divinity is something I'm not currently taking, I do take crusade, but don't have the points left for conviction.
I'm not sure where you get all those points from, though - you want to go 18 points into the ret tree and five points into holy. Are you suggesting dropping Hammer of the Righteous? Even if I didn't think redoubt was worth it, I'd need some prot talent to exchange two of those points with.
07-23-2010, 04:43 PM
I'm currently 5-56-10. I don't carry Stoicism, Imp. Hammer of Justice, Reckoning, Guardian's Favor, or Divine Sacrifice/Guardian. Everything else maxed puts me at 56. Though I do see where you're going with Redoubt, my concern is it almost never procs on single target boss fights for me. I've had great love for Redoubt since BC (when it was basically required) but the new damage scale put a dent in it's effectiveness.
And I could never give up Hammer of the Righteous. It's the gift from the gods I always wanted coming up through Vanilla WoW and the BC era. With a Heroic Bonebreaker Scepter in hand, it hits 50% Harder than my Shield of Righteousness, and hits 4 targets with the same CD. I love the ringing bell, I couldn't tank without it <3
07-23-2010, 04:46 PM
Could you post an armory, I have some pointers for that spec.
Divine Sacrifice/Guardian is definitely worth it, though. Reckoning is overrated, Divinity usually not worth it. You only really need one point in Spiritual attunement.
And trust me, redoubt procs against single target bosses. Last I checked (which admittedly is a while back), it can proc from any source of damage.
07-23-2010, 04:48 PM
You should definitely keep redoubt. You probably won't be able to max out conviction in the ret tree, but you can at least put one point into it, while putting 3/3 in crusade.
Here it is:
Now keep in mind I haven't seen your current talent tree yet. There are a few important things to note. You do only need 1/2 spiritual attunement and you'll still be fine on mana (besides General Vezax in Uld.) You can probably put the 2 point from vindication into conviction if you're not the one responsible for brining that debuff, although it's probably easiest for you to have it since it's the best one for 2 points worth. Divinity is also still not worth tanking at the moment, unless you're working on HMLK 25 perhaps, but that's a different spec altogether.
07-23-2010, 04:57 PM
It seems I answered my own question. I overlooked the core fundamentals of what I was trying to do, and forgot about the base requirements to pull that off. I was looking to deep without covering my bases first. o_o
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=0500000000000000000000000055005035003102321333 31232150230000000000000000000000 Is my current build. And it does work very well :)
I would have to take Divine Sacrifice and Guardian just to make the core requirements without Divinity. It seems I need to look at this from a new perspective!
Here's to looking to far in, and bouncing your head off the glass! :D
07-23-2010, 05:02 PM
The spec persus linked is pretty close to cookie cutter. The prot tree points are perfect, you can tinker in the ret tree between conviction, SoC and Pursuit of Justice (drop it if you can live with tuskarrs).
Redoubt is in every cookie cutter spec. Divinity is never in any spec, except possibly Holy Paladins (usually in the pursuit of a Holy DSac build).
07-23-2010, 05:13 PM
I actually put divinity in my ret spec to enhance my Divine Storm healing ability during a test phase. It was a pretty fun build actually, as I could pretty much heal our OP tanks through Heroics with just my Divine Storm :p
Taking a new angle, trading out Divinity for Divine Sacrifice, using those 2 points for Vindication (our main groups retadin is often missing these days), maybe trading out 1 point in SA for Seal of Command? (lawl) More likely the front end of Persuit or something else that would make me feel sexy.
The build I'm using now doesn't have it because our other tank does, and I built this spec around ours working together over a purely stand-alone tank spec with all the bells and whistles. That said, we almost *never* use DSac anymore short of H-LK and RS25.
Thank you everyone for your input. I'll continue to toy with it, see if I can find something unique and effective. I might already have it, but as they say, you never evolve living by the standard :)
07-24-2010, 02:18 PM
The TPS per talent point breakdown here (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?p=521965&rb_v=viewtopic#p521965) goes a long way to explaining why the cookie cutter spec is the way it is. This thread (http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=1&t=26864&rb_v=viewtopic) expands on the rest.
07-25-2010, 12:20 PM
What is your current progression? Divinity is in many high end paladins specs, frankly it helps us survive and in most high end guilds you are prob running 1-2 hunters and 1-2 rogues and nothing is really threat sensitive in ICC. Most Paladins working on HLK or who have cleared everything run this spec (http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=0000000000000000000000000055005135203102311333 11232150230210200000000000000000) (obviosuly for everything but HLK). You should not have threat issues and Divinity helps you survive better in those oh shit moments, and is like Blood draining will it save you? maybe.
Also before people start to argue about divinity not being in any spec go look up the 5 or 6 top prot pallies (i.e. paragon, for the horde, ensidia)
07-25-2010, 01:57 PM
Being subjective. I took the time to look you up on armory, http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Drenden&cn=Zantiel&gn=Veterans+of+Valor and theres many things i feel you could switch to push your character further, which as your post implies, is what you are trying for.
redoubt is needed, it would be a poor choice to not take it, as for your chants, theres many things you can do to a) increase output and b)increase survivability without gimping anything, weapon for example, bladeward has been proven to be nearly useless, youd be better off with basically any other rellevant weapon chant, cloak has def on it, which isnt bad, but could be switched for agi for the extra crit you wanted, or armor. you can take one point from SA and put it in something else, Id reccomend switching it with seal of command, which would free up a glyph slot by removing the need for HotR glyph. at this point id also even go so far as to saying use ret trinkets for farmed fights (i do and have no problems on any farmed content)
a completely optimized damage spec would be... http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=2&tal=0000000000000000000000000055005135203102311333 11232150230210200000000000000000
which has been tested by meloree from maintankadin, he holds many tank dps records, this isnt the greatest all around tank spec though and isnt suitable for harder fights
As someone stated previously though, you probably need something like the cookie cutter spec to be 'perfect' its used by so many people for a reason ;)
Yes the top prot pallies use divinity as it outweighs the other options when it comes to usefulness in their raid environment, Div sac is a good talent which i prettymuch use on CD, but playing properly can negate the need of it, I mainly use it if a raider is too slow to react to some aoe or just to lessen a healers job temporarily. divinity is a straight survivability helper in the most basic way.