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View Full Version : Death Knight Bryntoll:The Bone arbiter good for DK tanks?



Ralekk
07-21-2010, 04:56 PM
I play a DK blood tank and I recently obtained Bryntoll off Lord Marrowgar 25 man.Before i got this I was using the Tyrannical Beheader 2-hander axe from PoS heroic.when i won the raid roll some of the dps in the PuG kept /w me trying to buy it off me saying its no good for tanking or its not a tanking weapon.
I was wondering me if theres any truth to what they were saying?

cheers.

Kazeyonoma
07-21-2010, 05:03 PM
a tanking weapon is any weapon that you can utilize for your own self benefit, there's more stam, sockets for stamina, and more dps for your threat, the proc doesn't hurt either combined with your self healing, so eh, i'd say it's not a terrible tanking weapon. however, it is a really good dps weapon for most 2 handed dps classes, especially dks and ret pallies. So it's kind of a toss up, it'd be more meaningful to a DPS class, but if you won it and you're gonna use it...

Ralekk
07-21-2010, 05:22 PM
Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking.I have a considerable amount of more stamina because of it,since it does more damage than my last axe I'm doing more threat and it's also faster.Defintely seems like a good tanking weapon for DK's to me.thanks

joe1010011010
07-21-2010, 05:33 PM
personally ide never use that as a warrior, it simply has no stats and a proc that for a DPS role is no dam good, a blood tank DK as far as im concerned is the only possible class/roll to benefit from this axe, just like the above poster said,

Ralekk
07-21-2010, 05:44 PM
personally ide never use that as a warrior, it simply has no stats and a proc that for a DPS role is no dam good, a blood tank DK as far as im concerned is the only possible class/roll to benefit from this axe, just like the above poster said,

This is what my arguement was with the dps.the axe benefits me more i think.as you said no stats and a proc which is usless for dps imo.I have also just found out that with vampiric blood on i get even more health from the proc so why wudn't I want use it :P .

Insahnity
07-21-2010, 05:59 PM
Tanking weapons for DKs get a bit greyed out, as DK tanks are supposed to use DPS weapons for tanking (even DW frost tanks).

Some say one is better for tanking over the other on slightly more stamina or expertise or something along those lines, instead of pure dps attributes like ArPen and Crit.

At the end of the day, whether it's Bryntoll or Shadowmourne, if you got it and its an upgrade for you as a DK, slap that SSG or Nerubian runeforge on it and be a better DK tank.

Ralekk
07-21-2010, 06:02 PM
thanks for your input,couldn't agree more.Thats exactly what I intend to do!

Miste
07-21-2010, 07:55 PM
Bryntoll is OK, but there are better 2H weapons in ICC. The proc isn't that good for tanks and the lack of hit or expertise makes it a subpar tanking weapon, especially in current content. Ramaladni's Blade of Culling from 10-man DBS is better. The Cryptmaker from 25-man Princes and the sword from LK are both significantly better than Bryntoll. If it is all you can get, take it. If you have the chance to get one of the other 3 weapons, they are better depending on your hit or expertise needs.
(http://www.wowhead.com/item=50798)

Dannyl
07-22-2010, 01:51 AM
Tbh, I don't put much stock on weapons that give Expertise or Hit rating. It is an easy way around getting the necessary hit and exp caps, but after going with such weapons in both Ulduar and Toc, I decided I'd go with a non-hit/exp weapon in ICC. If you can gear around those stats, like I have, any weapon with pure DPS stats is going to be superior, even well into hard modes. The only real candidates I've found appealing to exchange my shadow's edge have been the heroic cryptmaker and -warmace of menethil.

Dekar
07-22-2010, 02:27 AM
If you can gear around those stats, like I have, any weapon with pure DPS stats is going to be superior, even well into hard modes.

You don't need those stats so there's no point in "gearing around them".

To the OP, if Bryntroll was better than what you had before, then an upgrade is an upgrade. There's nothing wrong with using it to tank with.

Dannyl
07-22-2010, 02:33 AM
You don't need those stats so there's no point in "gearing around them".
Yes, you do indeed need them.

Harmacy
07-22-2010, 02:39 AM
Yes, you do indeed need them.

Yes and no.

For true endgame raiding you do not need hit or expertise, because you can get enough tricks/MD's to cover up any issues with snap threat, and your gear will have enough strength/AP that the attacks that DO hit will generate enough threat to hold aggro. This is why endgame tanks gear around little but EH.

For pugging or altruns or what have you, then hit and expertise are more useful because you don't have outside help, and rarely are puggers going to wait three or four seconds for aggro on Toravon or whatever. They see a tank charging in, time to pop cooldowns and pew pew pew!!!

But yeah, Bryntroll is not ideal but it is still a solid weapon in my opinion.

Dekar
07-22-2010, 02:48 AM
Yes, you do indeed need them.

No, you don't. What are hit and expertise used for? Threat. If you're having threat issues, 99% of the time it's a rotation problem and no amount of hit or expertise will help you with that. In this stage of the expansion, you should be focusing on nothing but EH (stam and armor). Throw in a taunt glyph on fights where a missed taunt could mean a wipe (heroic saurfang, heroic sind, heroic putri).

Or you could try reading this if you still don't believe that hit and expertise shouldn't be worried about.

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?65700-Expertise-Hit-and-your-Threat.-What-it-means-to-all-Tanks.-%28Current-for-3.3.3%29

Dannyl
07-22-2010, 02:50 AM
For true endgame raiding you do not need hit or expertise, because you can get enough tricks/MD's to cover up any issues with snap threat, and your gear will have enough strength/AP that the attacks that DO hit will generate enough threat to hold aggro. This is why endgame tanks gear around little but EH.
Aye, naturally but I never really found it satisfying to be dependent on MDs and tricks, and my DK is proof that you can gear for all the EH you want and still be on a satisfying level with hit and expertise. I can pull off my own snap aggro and don't need DPS players to do it for me. If someone doesn't do the same, it isn't an issue for me but to say it like you don't need them at all is just false, cause you do and more importantly, it doesn't gimp you to have it.

Dannyl
07-22-2010, 02:51 AM
No, you don't. What are hit and expertise ...
What I said above. I won't discuss it further.

Dekar
07-22-2010, 03:00 AM
Aye, naturally but I never really found it satisfying to be dependent on MDs and tricks, and my DK is proof that you can gear for all the EH you want and still be on a satisfying level with hit and expertise. I can pull off my own snap aggro and don't need DPS players to do it for me. If someone doesn't do the same, it isn't an issue for me but to say it like you don't need them at all is just false, cause you do and more importantly, it doesn't gimp you to have it.

I've tanked 10 mans on my warrior with no md/tricks and a frost dk dps that does about 12-13k with 10 man buffs and no threat reduction talents. I also have about ~65 hit rating and anywhere from 14-23 expertise depending on the gear I'm wearing. I have no issues with threat, even on the pull and him going balls out from the start. Once again, it's all about knowing your priorities and hitting them accordingly.

And, it's pretty hard to "gear for all the EH you want" when gearing for EH means taking all the gear with bonus armor and I don't think i've seen a piece in ICC with bonus armor that has hit or expertise on it.

If an item has hit or expertise on it, and it's an upgrade, then by all means it should be used. But, you should never pass up an item with bonus armor to keep using one that has hit or expertise on it, regardless of how low your hit/expertise levels drop.

Tanking is going to be like this for the rest of this xpac. Maybe it'll change in Cata, as Blizz has indicated they'd like it to, but for now EH is king and will be for the foreseeable future.

Shieldie
07-22-2010, 03:16 AM
Yeah, I dont go out of my way at all for hit/expertise and the ONLY time its burdened me at any point was during 1 light, trying to pick up adds without a MD, over hungry (and stupid) ranged dps that nuke before I can even get there, If AS missed, Im screwed, but even then its nothing a taunt cant fix (glyphed ofc)
and that trouble wasnt even caused by bad game mechanics, just impatient dps.

I always find myself outperforming tanks who gem / chant / gear for hit / expertise, due to the fact that my rotation is second nature to me and I hammer it down on my keyboard as fast as possible. Ofcourse you are going to miss / be dodged / be parried abit, but with threat modifiers and a proper rotation, you would have to miss many, many, attacks in a row, and the way hit works, theres a pretty low chance for it to happen.

That being said, congrats on Bryntoll, it looks awesome. There are better alternatives but, seeing as you went from the icc5man axe, this is a pretty straightforward upgrade in a tanking perspective. the people who say you shouldnt be using it, are the people who lost the roll and want it themselves.

Dannyl
07-22-2010, 03:35 AM
*sigh* Fine, I'll bite ...


And, it's pretty hard to "gear for all the EH you want" when gearing for EH means taking all the gear with bonus armor and I don't think i've seen a piece in ICC with bonus armor that has hit or expertise on it.
That's is where you're wrong. The trick with hit and expertise is to pick it up where it has minimal effect on your EH. For example, comparing your helm to mine (just an example). Mine has hit rating, yours doesn't, though they both still have equal EH (sta and armor). In fact, when I compare your armory profile to mine, the difference is very small. I had to log on and put on frost presence to make sure but our HP are about the same - maybe like ~50 hp difference. My armor is higher than yours, although I have no HM gear yet, and in fact, I don't sport the same EH chest and hands as you do. The only big difference in our gear is that I have ~130 more hit than you (which is enough to get me hit capped when raid buffed).


If an item has hit or expertise on it, and it's an upgrade, then by all means it should be used. But, you should never pass up an item with bonus armor to keep using one that has hit or expertise on it, regardless of how low your hit/expertise levels drop.
Yeah.. we're just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. If I see two items, with a difference like 300 HP and maybe 40 hit rating, I'd go for the hit rating piece, assuming I felt I needed it. I see no issues with gearing for threat, if I feel I need it. To say that threat issues are random-% of the time rotation problems, aye, could be. And yes, I read your link and I found it kinda weird it would argue that it's proof that you don't need hit, because some very established players in world top guilds can do without it. Sadly, I'm willing to bet that most wow players, even most of those who ask for help on this forum, do not play on that level and are actually incapable of reaching the same level as world top players.

So yes, while EH is king and hopefully continues to be, gear is still about balance. If low hit works for you, that's great. But it might not work for everyone.

Now, can we leave this issue be? We're miles off-topic and we ain't gonna agree anyway.

Dekar
07-22-2010, 03:48 AM
Well, I don't raid on my warrior much anymore, just mostly pugs and whatnot and I usually dps anymore so his tank gear has been the same since about...March? maybe April at latest, so it's obviously not where i'd like it to be or where it would be if I was still raiding on him.

And to be technical, i'm not wrong. You can't say you can "gear for all the EH you want" then turn around and say "pick it up where it has minimal effect on EH". Minimal effect is still not technically gearing for it "all you want". But now i'm just splitting hairs to be right =D

And yes, we're off topic but I always like a good argument, and it'll be a nice reiteration to people on here if they happen to read this topic.

"we ain't gonna agree anyway" - most people around here have the same consensus as I do on this particular subject, so it's not just me being opinionated. =D

Dannyl
07-22-2010, 04:00 AM
Well, I don't raid on my warrior much anymore, just mostly pugs and whatnot and I usually dps anymore so his tank gear has been the same since about...March? maybe April at latest, so it's obviously not where i'd like it to be or where it would be if I was still raiding on him.
Well that's not very essential is it? I looked your warrior up simply to find a viable comparison and since they are pretty much in equal level gear, marginal differences aside, the exchange was valid. So my point still stands.


And to be technical, i'm not wrong. You can't say you can "gear for all the EH you want" then turn around and say "pick it up where it has minimal effect on EH". Minimal effect is still not technically gearing for it "all you want". But now i'm just splitting hairs to be right =D
First time I can say we agree on something.


And yes, we're off topic but I always like a good argument, and it'll be a nice reiteration to people on here if they happen to read this topic.

"we ain't gonna agree anyway" - most people around here have the same consensus as I do on this particular subject, so it's not just me being opinionated. =D
Yes I know, I read some of the first comments on the thread you posted and yes, some well-established community members agreed with you, but then again I've never been afraid to disagree with "well-established" (gotta stop saying that) people cause even Albert Einstein was proven wrong a couple of times. I honestly think, in this case, it boils down to personal preference and opinion.

He too was quite opinionated btw ;-)

Deathsvalor
07-22-2010, 05:44 AM
Bryntoll was definitely a large upgrade to what you had.

A note on the hit/expertise discussion:

While threat is not an issue with tricks and MD, I would like to add that due to the unique nature of blood DK tanking, that hit and expertise do act as survival stats. I have died several times due to multiple well timed Death Strikes being missed/dodged/parried in a row when I would have survived had one of them landed. Nothing is more frustrating than having a life saving heal miss.

I do not gem for either (except for the purple gem I use for meta), but I do look for them on weapons.

Ralekk
07-22-2010, 06:18 AM
Thank you all for your thoughts on the subject and your discussion on EH,etc.I found it all very helpful and insightful,you've given me something to think about!!I hope to get Ramaladni's Blade of Culling so I can compare it with Brytroll,I've just been extremely unlucky with drops on every boss for the past few weeks up untill yesterday when Bryntroll dropped.I've read that Bryntroll is better but until I test it out myself I won't know i guess.Tbh I've never once worried about hit/expertise as I've never had a problem with threat,main tanking ICC or doing heroics etc and I've always thought that people worry too much about these stats.I think threat comes down mostly to a solid rotation and understanding of how to play your class.That being said,obviously problems with threat will arise if you're not geared well.

Dreadski
07-22-2010, 06:52 AM
Guys, it's spelled Bryntroll. There's 2 R's.

http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=50709
http://www.wowhead.com/item=50415

Goros
07-22-2010, 07:05 AM
I'd personally take Heroic Oxheart before Bryntroll any day as a DK tank, blood, frost, or unholy.

Just me, but IMO it's way more bang for the buck. (This is assuming you're doing 10M Hardmodes).

Ralekk
07-22-2010, 07:15 AM
Guys, it's spelled Bryntroll. There's 2 R's.

http://www.wowarmory.com/item-info.xml?i=50709
http://www.wowhead.com/item=50415

Yes i was aware that i was spelling it wrong but everyone knows what i was talking about and how it's spelt isn't really what this thread is about is it?:P

Dreadski
07-22-2010, 07:22 AM
No it isn't but since the topic has been rolled over and no one has spelled it right yet, I figured I'd troll over and chime in. :)

Dekar
07-22-2010, 02:01 PM
No it isn't but since the topic has been rolled over and no one has spelled it right yet, I figured I'd troll over and chime in. :)


You don't need those stats so there's no point in "gearing around them".

To the OP, if Bryntroll was better than what you had before, then an upgrade is an upgrade. There's nothing wrong with using it to tank with.

=D

and I believe Harmacy spelled it correct too

Wilhem
07-22-2010, 06:07 PM
I play a DK blood tank and I recently obtained Bryntoll off Lord Marrowgar 25 man.Before i got this I was using the Tyrannical Beheader 2-hander axe from PoS heroic.when i won the raid roll some of the dps in the PuG kept /w me trying to buy it off me saying its no good for tanking or its not a tanking weapon.
I was wondering me if theres any truth to what they were saying?

cheers.

You win (http://www.wowhead.com/compare?items=50415.0.0.0.40119.40119;50267.0.0.0. 40119&weights=Death%20Knight%20-%20Blood%20(Tank);134:22:42:21:45:46:117:20:114:96 :41:119:103:77;11:100:90:69:50:43:38:31:26:22:18:1 6:16:8&focus=0).

And I don't mean you win against the guy saying it's not a good tanking weapon, I mean you win as in it's a nice upgrade for you. +54 Stam, +32 Strength, more damage = more threat for you.

Sure, it's not a great tank weapon, but it's not a great DPS weapon either as far as the PROc goes. It's a PvP weapon if you're going to judge by the PROc.

Lumines
07-23-2010, 05:16 AM
The proc is what puts it above similar iLvl weapons for Ret Pallies, since they have a ton of abilities which can proc it. 28 posts and still the fallacy that it's a "bad weapon" for all DPS classes - it's not.

(Doesn't mean that I disagree with the OP; it was a solid upgrade for him too and a fair roll. But not because it's bad for other people.)

Dreadski
07-23-2010, 09:04 AM
=D

and I believe Harmacy spelled it correct too

You caught me, TLDR.