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kurn1701
07-16-2010, 01:16 AM
hi
didnt know where else to post this and couldnt find it specifically so i thought id ask.

there is a discussion going on in guild that in certain circumstances a warr tank should vig the other tank. is this correct and under what circumstances should and shouldnt it be done tyvm.

Mirky
07-16-2010, 02:34 AM
I do it when off-tanking the adds in the Lich King fight - unlimited taunts so I can grab every single one of the adds without moving instead of having to move around and hit them, and risk hitting someone with a shambling horror's shockwave.

There are other fights where it is useful too. Usually a fight with lots of adds where you need to taunt a lot.

Fledern
07-16-2010, 02:39 AM
I could swear this was asked before but i couldnt find it.

Except in very select situations, putting vigilance on the other tank is usually a bad idea. Yes you're buffing your threat throught a high-threat toon but you're doing it at the cost of the other tanks threat. It's almost always better to vigilance a high threat dps target instead. My favorites are fury warriors, boomkins & warlocks. Them because they generate high aggro and have no misdirects and no/crappy aggro dumps.

The only time you want to vigi the other tank is when you need taunt refreshes.

One good example is tanking Gormok. A missed taunt has bad consequences so you want your taunt refreshed immediately to try taunting again. Most tank switching fights would benefit from vigi on the other tank but most are usually not as potentially dangerous as Gormok. (As comparison, festergut isnt as dangerous. Once the first tank reaches 9 stacks you have time enough for many more taunts even without vigi before the 10th debuff lands, Gormok on the other hand applies his debuffs pretty fast.)

One other time i vigi the other tank is on the lich king fight on phase 3 where i switch my vigilance from the fury warrior to the lich king tank so i can taunt & absorb the vile spirits (since there are 10 of them, i need a lot of taunts).

drae
07-16-2010, 04:56 AM
I also vigi the other tank on Saurfang. Then I get him to tank first. That way he's always tanking when the adds spawn. That way I can taunt off the ranged dps if the adds get to close. I don't hit them, usually if they aren't dead by the time they get to me the ranged has pulled aggro back. It works really well in lieu of knockbacks. Ranged don't have to kite either if they get close.

I use vigilance on my co-tank extensively in Ph 1 and 3 on LK. Unlimited taunts for shamblers and ghosts is pure win.

The other thing is on any fight where your taunting back and forth vigi on the other tank isn't a threat loss once they taunt back.

Fledern
07-16-2010, 06:57 AM
Hmm to provide something with numbers you can take back to your guild:

Lets assume the following (this is pretty much the setup i run with in our 10man heroic group)

MT: 9000 Threat per second (TPS). No misdirects, tott, etc
Fury Warrior: 12K dps = 8.4K TPS.
Aggro pull level is 9.9K TPS so the warrior is sitting at 85% threat. Close. He wont back down on dps but a small hiccup on the MT and he'll have threat problems.
OT: 3000 TPS due to rage starvation.

Now you, as the OT, vigilance the MT.
MT: 8100 TPS. (You just ninjaed 10% threat from him)
Fury Warrior: 12K dps = 8.4 TPS.
Aggro pull level dropped down to 8.9K TPS. The warrior is sitting at 94% threat with all sorts of aggro alarms going off. He backs down, causing your raid a dps loss.
OT: 3900 TPS (3000 + the 900 from the MT)

Now, put the same vigilance on the fury warrior
MT: 9000 TPS
Fury Warrior: 12K dps = 7.5K TPS.
Aggro pull level is 9.9K TPS so the warrior is sitting at 76% threat. He's so far down in threat that he forgets his threatmeter
OT: 3840 TPS (3000 + the 840 you ninja'd from the fury warrior)

Basically, as a warrior in OT position is ragestarved, the amount you ninja by vigilance does squat for your own threat. But you run the very real threat of lowering your raid dps if you put it on an actively tanking MT. If you're the one doing the MT'ing, getting threat off a high dps instead of a nonactive tank with already low threat is again a better deal.

Unless you really need taunt refreshes, at which time, all bets are off.

MellvarTank
07-16-2010, 07:17 AM
I will cross-vig a warrior tank for taunt refreshes, and vig an off tank on LK (or MT on LK).... but that is about it. Generally it is a bad idea.

Dreadski
07-16-2010, 07:57 AM
I could swear this was asked before but i couldnt find it.

Except in very select situations, putting vigilance on the other tank is usually a bad idea. Yes you're buffing your threat throught a high-threat toon but you're doing it at the cost of the other tanks threat. It's almost always better to vigilance a high threat dps target instead. My favorites are fury warriors, boomkins & warlocks. Them because they generate high aggro and have no misdirects and no/crappy aggro dumps.

The only time you want to vigi the other tank is when you need taunt refreshes.

One good example is tanking Gormok. A missed taunt has bad consequences so you want your taunt refreshed immediately to try taunting again. Most tank switching fights would benefit from vigi on the other tank but most are usually not as potentially dangerous as Gormok. (As comparison, festergut isnt as dangerous. Once the first tank reaches 9 stacks you have time enough for many more taunts even without vigi before the 10th debuff lands, Gormok on the other hand applies his debuffs pretty fast.)

One other time i vigi the other tank is on the lich king fight on phase 3 where i switch my vigilance from the fury warrior to the lich king tank so i can taunt & absorb the vile spirits (since there are 10 of them, i need a lot of taunts).

If it's causing issues for the other tank, tell them to L2threat FFS. It's useful on things like dreamwalker, the lightning VOA boss, offtanking roles, etc. It's up to the individual to decide who is the best person to place it on, DPS or tank. Every fight is unique.

Sirloinsteak
07-16-2010, 09:56 AM
you know u can switch vigilance in combat yeah ? ... tbh on some fights ill switch vigilance 5 times or more either cycling through high threat targets depending on their threat (even if im miles ahead on actual threat, it just stops these guys from even getting close) ... and if i need vigi for taunt refreshes at a certain part of the fight ill throw it on the tank till im done needing the refreshes then straight back on the highest threat dps below the tanks. easy as pie

Erred
07-16-2010, 11:13 AM
After reading this thread I began to wonder how, exactly, does vigilance work? Generally, I put vigilance on high threat dps classes and change it if circumstance requires. So I guess my question is; does the threat transfer happen regardless or only if the target is shared? Meaning, does it actually gimp the threat output of the tank on the primary target, if the other tank is busy on other things? I’m curious because, for the most part, I don’t put vig on our other tanks as I don’t want to reduce their threat. Admittedly, I’ve never considered checking Omen to see if I show up on a targets’ threat table in the rare occasion I do apply vig to our other tanks.

Gothmogg
07-16-2010, 11:27 AM
Vig is not stating that it will have any agro transfer in the new Cata update.

"Focus your protective gaze on a group or raid target, reducing their damage taken by 3%. In addition, each time they are hit by an attack your taunt cooldown is refreshed and you gain Vengeance as if the dmage were done to you. Lasts 30 Min. May only be placed on one target at a time."

I suspect that this wont be much use for additional threat if it stays the same. The issue I have is that who caraes if your taunt is refreshed, if a clothie gets one shotted because they gain agro, it's coming back to you anyhow. You can't save that clothie regardless.

MellvarTank
07-16-2010, 11:28 AM
It will take 10% threat from the MT if it is on him, even if you aren't attacking that target. As demonstrated above though.... that isn't really a lot of threat. Although you would be on the threat table, you won't even be close to the top.

Erred
07-16-2010, 11:35 AM
It will take 10% threat from the MT if it is on him, even if you aren't attacking that target. As demonstrated above though.... that isn't really a lot of threat. Although you would be on the threat table, you won't even be close to the top.

Yep, that's what I thought. Just wanted some comfirmation. Thanks

sifuedition
07-16-2010, 01:07 PM
Vig is not stating that it will have any agro transfer in the new Cata update.

"Focus your protective gaze on a group or raid target, reducing their damage taken by 3%. In addition, each time they are hit by an attack your taunt cooldown is refreshed and you gain Vengeance as if the dmage were done to you. Lasts 30 Min. May only be placed on one target at a time."

I suspect that this wont be much use for additional threat if it stays the same. The issue I have is that who caraes if your taunt is refreshed, if a clothie gets one shotted because they gain agro, it's coming back to you anyhow. You can't save that clothie regardless.

I am hoping that the intent (for cata) is so that when a warrior is OT, he doesn't leach threat from the MT but is getting a steady supply of vengence/rage to stay higher in the threat table and dps.

Tengenstein
07-17-2010, 05:15 AM
The tooltip does seem to indicate that Vigilance should only be used on other tanks in cata, my hunter mate is gonna QQ so hard when i tell him. However i think two warriors vigilancing each other is going to be pretty imba. especially for fights that have a marrowgar type mechanic, vengenace is gonna stack up so fast.

I wouldn't bet against the glyph of Vigilance adding the threat transfer back in cata.