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Vole
07-15-2010, 06:01 PM
Hello!

I have been playing the game for 5 years, but mainly as a Druid. I've been a caster the entire time.. Yes a moonkin. I enjoy looking up information on moonkin, trying out new things and reading resource sites to make sure I do my part in raids. But I admit, I've been spoiled with this. With Sites like TMR, Graymatter, and a few others..I come here reading a bit of information only to confuse myself.

Been viewing these forums a lot lately as I have been gearing up my Death Knight and taking on Tanking. Sadly, mainly with ICC pugs that don't get far (except one). So slightly limited at what I can get and how long it will take for badges.


I was mainly looking for a BiS list for DK tanks in ICC (mass armor) and of course was using the sticky uptop. I continue to see the abbreviation (EH) but have no clue what it means. I've seen it around this forum as well.

Needless to say, Here is my DK's Armory. I'm limited on what I can get in to at the moment, but my Guild Master knows I will be going to my DK come Cataclysm. I've enjoyed the changes (Yes, I play in beta) and I figured it was time to put my druid aside since I really really have grown bored with her.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Staghelm&cn=Foof

With the Spec, I went with what I was reading on the WoW Forums, but some things seem really out of date. I was thinking about changing my glyphs as well. (Verify everything is good please! :D)

Gearing Wise, I went for an armor set right now. I took the time to get the pants and Boots made to help me out along the way. I have 48 frost badges and I was thinking about getting the Frost Belt as my next major upgrade. I have high hit (so another tank told me) but I also read Hit is good for Threat.

I was also told I have to low of health, yet I know as a tank, there is more to having high health and GS (oh god, I hate seeing that crap spammed in trade).

So.

1) My Glyphs and Spec Good? (Making sure I was reading updated information)
2) Is my gearing going in the right direction? (I am reading the correct stuff?)
3) WTF is EH?
4) Should I grab the Belt or something else in its place for a bigger upgrade? Overall stats are telling me the Belt would be best.

Dekar
07-15-2010, 06:16 PM
1. Glyphs are good, spec could use a little tweaking depending on your normal raid comp though. Improved Icy Touch is a nice talent if you don't have anyone else providing a melee slow effect (which if you're mainly pugging, I wouldn't count on pugs always having or using these abilities). I would also take those 3 points out of Subversion and 5 out of Necrosis. Put the 3 from Subversion into Improved IT and take the 5 from Necrosis and pick up Rune Tap, Improved Rune Tap and use the final point to get 3/3 Might of Mograine.

2. For the most part, although you need new trinkets, as both of your currently are pretty much garbage. Farm the Black Heart from norm 5m ToC and get 50 triumph and get the Glyph trinket (the armor one). Those trinkets will last you awhile until you can get your hands on a juggernauts/sindragosa 25 trink/10 putricide trink or the frost badge one. Buy the frost badge trinket as one of your last upgrades though. Also, get rid of those crappy 232 shoulders with hit and get the 245 triumph ones with dodge/parry on them.

3. EH stands for effective health. In short, it's basically your stam and armor that contributes to your EH. There's a lot more mathematics to it but I won't get into that, there's probably a thread around here somewhere explaining it all.

4. The frost badge belt is BiS until level 85 basically. You won't find a better one even from 25 heroic ICC. Get it right away, and then get the frost badge cloak after that, as it is also BiS til 85.

Vole
07-15-2010, 06:22 PM
1. Glyphs are good, spec could use a little tweaking depending on your normal raid comp though. Improved Icy Touch is a nice talent if you don't have anyone else providing a melee slow effect (which if you're mainly pugging, I wouldn't count on pugs always having or using these abilities). I would also take those 3 points out of Subversion and 5 out of Necrosis. Put the 3 from Subversion into Improved IT and take the 5 from Necrosis and pick up Rune Tap, Improved Rune Tap and use the final point to get 3/3 Might of Mograine.I'll change my spec around as soon as I get the chance. I was talking with a second DK on my spec and he recommended the same thing.


2. For the most part, although you need new trinkets, as both of your currently are pretty much garbage. Farm the Black Heart from norm 5m ToC and get 50 triumph and get the Glyph trinket (the armor one). Those trinkets will last you awhile until you can get your hands on a juggernauts/sindragosa 25 trink/10 putricide trink or the frost badge one. Buy the frost badge trinket as one of your last upgrades though. Also, get rid of those crappy 232 shoulders with hit and get the 245 triumph ones with dodge/parry on them.I actually have been farming for the Black Knight Trinket, and I have the 50 Triumph badge one. I didn't have it equipped during armory. As for the Shoulders, I've been getting into Pugs that can atleast do Heroic Lootship. Should I hold onto the shoulders I have until I get the Shoulders off there? Or just get the 245 ones?


3. EH stands for effective health. In short, it's basically your stam and armor that contributes to your EH. There's a lot more mathematics to it but I won't get into that, there's probably a thread around here somewhere explaining it all. I'll definitely look around for the numbers then. I find number crunching for DK's more fun then trying to number crunch Eclipse.


4. The frost badge belt is BiS until level 85 basically. You won't find a better one even from 25 heroic ICC. Get it right away, and then get the frost badge cloak after that, as it is also BiS til 85.Belt first, Got it! I figured I added the stats up correctly then.

Thanks for responding so fast! The good thing is, as I stated; my GM knows I'm going to my Death Knight. While we haven't killed Heroic Lich 25man due to member Shortage (real life loves to pop up and take them away -.-) We still clear up to him. So I may be able to switch to my DK to grab some gear. Hard to say. Might not happen till closer to Xpac.

Once again, thanks!

Mend
07-16-2010, 01:00 AM
Welcome to Tankspot!

1- Your spec is good yes, but maybe you could find more use out of Mark of Blood than Scent of blood. Your glyphs are perfect.

2- Your gearing is great, there are a few changes you can make to your enchants to improve but nothing major. Mainly the Def enchants and the threat enchant on your gloves, 2% is very small and will never be better than 18 stamina enchant.

3- EH is Effective Health, its basically a mix of the damage reduction from armor and the health from stamina to give you how long you have to live vs. a boss without any heals. As a tank you want this to be your most priority by stacking stamina and gearing for bonus armor.

So basicly its (Armor+Stamina) all rounded into 1 whole number, there is a long thread by Aggathon that explains everything in full detail.

4- Belt it is!

Vole
07-16-2010, 10:10 AM
Welcome to Tankspot!
Thanks :D


1- Your spec is good yes, but maybe you could find more use out of Mark of Blood than Scent of blood. Your glyphs are perfect.Yeah, with the glyphs, I was reading on the WoW Forums something different and then looked elsewhere. This is where I was wondering how out of date the WoW DK forums are. Spec Wise, I decided to make my second spec tank. I'm terrible as a melee dps. If the boss isn't on me or in my face I normally have the problem of "You need to get closer" (I blame my husband for this and trying to teach me how to play his rogue)


2- Your gearing is great, there are a few changes you can make to your enchants to improve but nothing major. Mainly the Def enchants and the threat enchant on your gloves, 2% is very small and will never be better than 18 stamina enchant.I'm currently working on getting the Shoulders that were Previously stated. Right now, I'm using the Threat Enchant to gloves (I know the stam is better) to help with threat until I get more of an ideal set for myself. The Defense right now is there to help keep me capped until I get a few new pieces. I was looking at getting the 250 health to chest upon my new chest.


3- EH is Effective Health, its basically a mix of the damage reduction from armor and the health from stamina to give you how long you have to live vs. a boss without any heals. As a tank you want this to be your most priority by stacking stamina and gearing for bonus armor.So, the way I have been gearing for (Looking at armor upgrades as well as stam) is good? Someone tried to tell me the pants I had; I should have gotten my teir pants instead. I use Rawr to put stuff together, but I don't use it to tell me what is best (Habit as a moonkin since the moonkin stuff is off). I add up all the stats myself and found the Teir Gear Pants were weak compared to the Legs I had on now. Am I correct in believing this?



4- Belt it is!Word.

Mend
07-16-2010, 04:27 PM
I'm currently working on getting the Shoulders that were Previously stated. Right now, I'm using the Threat Enchant to gloves (I know the stam is better) to help with threat until I get more of an ideal set for myself. The Defense right now is there to help keep me capped until I get a few new pieces. I was looking at getting the 250 health to chest upon my new chest.

So, the way I have been gearing for (Looking at armor upgrades as well as stam) is good? Someone tried to tell me the pants I had; I should have gotten my teir pants instead. I use Rawr to put stuff together, but I don't use it to tell me what is best (Habit as a moonkin since the moonkin stuff is off). I add up all the stats myself and found the Teir Gear Pants were weak compared to the Legs I had on now. Am I correct in believing this?


Well the thing is with the threat enchant, if you are having trouble with threat already 2% isn't gonna make it better. The threat enchant is for someone with already high threat and wants to boost it slightly, even then 10,000 threat per second isn't gonna get improved with 2% extra.

And about the gear, your gearing right now is great. Please don't follow any advice from random people (including me) about what you should do before you fully research it and see if the gains are worth it. The tier pants have less stamina and over 1000 less armor than the ones you are wearing.If you want the tier 10 bonus than go with 4 piece + Pillars of might for the legs. But only when you can get ICC 25 tokens.

Vole
07-16-2010, 08:42 PM
Well the thing is with the threat enchant, if you are having trouble with threat already 2% isn't gonna make it better. The threat enchant is for someone with already high threat and wants to boost it slightly, even then 10,000 threat per second isn't gonna get improved with 2% extra.

And about the gear, your gearing right now is great. Please don't follow any advice from random people (including me) about what you should do before you fully research it and see if the gains are worth it. The tier pants have less stamina and over 1000 less armor than the ones you are wearing.If you want the tier 10 bonus than go with 4 piece + Pillars of might for the legs. But only when you can get ICC 25 tokens.Thats what I didnt know about the threat enchant. I'm not having problems with threat, just thought the extra bit would help against puggers who have quick trigger fingers (you know, the ones where I run into a group and they suddenly ae and pull everything to them before I even drop anything?)

With the Shoulders I was looking at, Wouldn't be a major upgrade. I'd gain slightly more Stam, Lose Hit (which most people say I don't need) and less than a % of defense but gain dodge and more armor. So overall, I'm going to go for it since it can last me until I get new shoulders.

I was thinking of avoiding the 4pc bonus. Just going for the Gloves and the Helm(2pc) for right now since the Badge Chest is really decent and would last me a long time. So I would be using alot of OffTeir stuff with higher armor until I would get into Main Raids with my DK and have access to the Tokens (Which sadly are sitting on my druid, just rotting away right now)

Question: I want to put the Armor Enchant on my Cloak, but I also heard Agi was good for dodge. I rather have the armor. Should I go for it?

Also, I was thinking this order for the badge items

Belt, Chest, Cloak, Trinket.

Does that sound good?

Dannyl
07-17-2010, 03:46 AM
And about the gear, your gearing right now is great. Please don't follow any advice from random people (including me) about what you should do before you fully research it and see if the gains are worth it.
I second this. It is extremely important to remember that gear is about balance and even if someone can write up a theoretical list of what is the very best composition of gear, there are still factors that play into it; like play style, access to those items in e.g. 25 ICC hcs, and whether or not they actually drop and you get the drop.

I'll link a tanking guide from the Ensidia (http://www.ensidia.com/forum_topic.php?forum_id=36&topic_id=28655) forums, for no other reason except the BiS item lists that the author put together. You're not really suppose to use any of those sets as is. What I did, was go with the EH list and pick items for my setup from the other lists to balance my hit, expertise, etc. I still refer to these lists when I'm instructing some of the less experienced DK tanks in our guild.

To try out different compositions, I use Rawr which does the math and sums all your stats up for you nicely. So you can just focus on comparing items.


Question: I want to put the Armor Enchant on my Cloak, but I also heard Agi was good for dodge. I rather have the armor. Should I go for it?
I would definitely go with the armor enchant. The avoidance gained from the Agi enchant is marginal and Armor is much more valuable than avoidance.

Mend
07-17-2010, 07:58 AM
Thats what I didnt know about the threat enchant. I'm not having problems with threat, just thought the extra bit would help against puggers who have quick trigger fingers (you know, the ones where I run into a group and they suddenly ae and pull everything to them before I even drop anything?)

With the Shoulders I was looking at, Wouldn't be a major upgrade. I'd gain slightly more Stam, Lose Hit (which most people say I don't need) and less than a % of defense but gain dodge and more armor. So overall, I'm going to go for it since it can last me until I get new shoulders.

I was thinking of avoiding the 4pc bonus. Just going for the Gloves and the Helm(2pc) for right now since the Badge Chest is really decent and would last me a long time. So I would be using alot of OffTeir stuff with higher armor until I would get into Main Raids with my DK and have access to the Tokens (Which sadly are sitting on my druid, just rotting away right now)

Question: I want to put the Armor Enchant on my Cloak, but I also heard Agi was good for dodge. I rather have the armor. Should I go for it?

Also, I was thinking this order for the badge items

Belt, Chest, Cloak, Trinket.

Does that sound good?


The 2 piece bonus is kind of underwhelming, it's only used on trash and you should honestly never gear or pick up bonuses just to help you tank trash its just not worth it :(.


Avoid the 4 piece unless you get 4 santified tokens, than it MIGHT be worth it. But the offset pieces are still better even compared to the 264 tier pieces.

Perfect order

Vole
07-18-2010, 09:15 AM
Thanks for the extra info!

Vole
07-19-2010, 09:48 AM
Continuing on

I have the badges for my shoulders and 5 badges away from my Belt. So as soon as I grab the belt, I'm going to get the shoulders, so I have the defense I need to stay capped without having to get the defense/dodge shoulder enchant. So I am working on it. However, I was in a ICC25man pug and was deemed the Main tank due to the threat I pull compared to the other tanks that went. One of the tanks was a fellow DK, who apparently follows Gearscore as his bible.

He was making a huge ruckus about how his Gearscore was higher than me and so he should be maintank. Of course after a bit of talk down from the rest of the raid about how Gearscore =/= skill, he then proceeded to tell me my Expertise was to low and I should be offtank.

From my understanding, Exp is the secondary Hit function. While Tanks don't focus on hit, melee do use Expertise. Now, as a tank, I thought I would go Defense cap, armor, stam, then Expertise?

My Expertise is currently at 15, and I thought the cap was 26? Am I ok with this or should I work for more Expertise? Cause from what I read, its like Hit. We use it, but its ok for it to be low.

Edit: Also, the tank that was questioning me had 38 Expertise. :/

Dekar
07-19-2010, 08:16 PM
Unless you have threat issues, don't worry about how much hit or expertise you have. And if you are having threat issues, 99.9% of the time it's a rotation issue anyway and you're not doing your optimal threat priorities.

Vole
07-19-2010, 08:40 PM
Not really having threat problems unless I tank for my guildies mains. Then its more of a Heroic 25man Geared people with 4piece set bonuses vs me trying to get past their snap aggro on the pull.

Fledern
07-19-2010, 10:49 PM
Most of the mechanics & math regarding tanking arent exclusive to DK so the guides you're looking for & cant find are the generalized ones.
Here are the links from tankspot:

Evil Empire Guides: Lots of good info, the AC & Stamina title is the one you're looking for for proper explanation of Effective Health.
http://www.tankspot.com/forumdisplay.php?63-Evil-Empire-Guides

FAQ: All about stats, caps & what you really need to get.
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?41907-Frequently-Asked-Questions

Threat: A compilation of the threat values of Death Knight abilities. If you're feeling mathy
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?40485-Death-Knight-threat-values

and finally, the book on Death Knight tanking:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?59900-Comprehensive-Guide-to-Death-Knight-Tanking

I hate BiS lists. Unlike dps or healing, unless you know exactly what you're doing, blindly following a BiS list and grabbing stuff from the list as you get your hands on them will quickly get you killed (it's very easy to drop below defense cap by following BiS list and getting crit by a boss). There are lists ofc, but dont look at them until you know why you want them.

As has been said, the belt is your biggest upgrade. I'd put the cloak or the tier shoulders second. Your cloak is really good but the frost one is better :P. The 2pc T10 setbonus is very very good so aim to get that quickly. I usually prefer the head & shoulders for the T10 and getting the offset pieces for chest & hands but you already have the hands so play around a little.

Your hit is high, very high. Hit is pretty important for DK to make sure your diseases land but not enough that you sacrifice survival for it. You have a ton of itembudget invested in hit, you can safely drop, say, 100 hit, without feeling it. Expertise is also a stat you want to keep relatively high (again not at the cost of survival) but i wouldnt worry too much, you'll be swimming in it once you start getting icc loot.

Otherwise you look good. I'm sure after reading the links posted above, you'll be able to make your gear decisions quite easily. There's a lot of personal choice involved in making your talent spec. While yours is not bad, it could use a re-examination. Read the last link, Sattori's guide is excellent in guiding you to making your own decisions.

Dekar
07-20-2010, 12:54 AM
As has been said, the belt is your biggest upgrade. I'd put the cloak or the tier shoulders second. Your cloak is really good but the frost one is better :P. The 2pc T10 setbonus is very very good so aim to get that quickly. I usually prefer the head & shoulders for the T10 and getting the offset pieces for chest & hands but you already have the hands so play around a little.

There is nothing good about the DK T10 2p bonus. It's 20% damage to DnD which is an aoe move, you should never be using DnD on a single target fight. The only thing it is good for really is trash, and if you want to gear yourself to hold better threat on trash so be it, but that won't get you too far. Only get the tier if you're going for the 4P and you can get it all at least 264. Otherwise the 264 offset pieces from badges/crafting/icc 25 normal are all superior in EH. (Obviously 277 tier 4p is BiS but not everyone will see that.)



Your hit is high, very high. Hit is pretty important for DK to make sure your diseases land but not enough that you sacrifice survival for it. You have a ton of itembudget invested in hit, you can safely drop, say, 100 hit, without feeling it. Expertise is also a stat you want to keep relatively high (again not at the cost of survival) but i wouldnt worry too much, you'll be swimming in it once you start getting icc loot.

Hit and expertise are nothing to worry about as a tank. If you get it on gear that is an upgrade, great, but you shouldn't be sacrificing EH for either of the two. There isn't a ton of tank gear with expertise in ICC, most of it has hit instead (which is the complete opposite of ToC where everything had expertise and no hit) but as a DK, it'll be a little easier to keep some expertise as you can use the 10m Saurfang axe to get a good chunk. But again, neither hit nor expertise should be the focus of your gearing.

Mend
07-20-2010, 10:55 AM
I have the badges for my shoulders and 5 badges away from my Belt. So as soon as I grab the belt, I'm going to get the shoulders, so I have the defense I need to stay capped without having to get the defense/dodge shoulder enchant. So I am working on it. However, I was in a ICC25man pug and was deemed the Main tank due to the threat I pull compared to the other tanks that went. One of the tanks was a fellow DK, who apparently follows Gearscore as his bible.

My Expertise is currently at 15, and I thought the cap was 26? Am I ok with this or should I work for more Expertise? Cause from what I read, its like Hit. We use it, but its ok for it to be low.

Edit: Also, the tank that was questioning me had 38 Expertise. :/

Don't worry about the tier shoulders, just make sure you buy the following offset pieces:

- Belt
- Gloves
- Chest
- Cloak
- Trinket

You can get a 264 helm from LDW 25 and some 277 shoulders from Gunship 25HM. There are also some very nice bracers from saurfang 10 man.

If you get the offset chestpiece it should solve all of your expertise problems, and generally if you don't have threat problems don't worry about it at all.

Ignore the other tank in the PuG, if you pull better threat and can survive longer than you should be MT. Even though there really isn't any MT/OT duty in ICC, its more of a Co-tank.

Use icytouch more than you need to if you have some dps in the group with much better gear than you, Bloodtap and ERW should let you get off alot of Icy touches at the beginning to get a head start.

Vole
07-20-2010, 02:15 PM
Sorry for the confusion, I'm not going for the teir shoulders. I'm going for the 245 when I get my belt, and then the gloves (until I get the ones from Heroic Gunship..gonna try and bribe my gm to get in for tonights clear). As for just picking stuff from a BiS list, I know how it works. I know better than to let myself drop below cap, but I also know to pick up side gear for easier management of new gear. This way I can move gear around to gain stats in a positive way.

As for the Hit and Exp, yeah, came with the gear. I am going to be removing the Gem I have however and use a Nightmare Tear. Read the Gemming guide on Ensida, but it never said anything about the gem required for the meta. So I was just using the 1 red gem to activate it.

As for my spec. I use 2 different blood ones. After talking with people here and my Guild's DPS Dk who used to tank, I got alot of information and am very happy with both my specs.

Once again, Thanks for the added info!

Dekar
07-20-2010, 05:04 PM
I am going to be removing the Gem I have however and use a Nightmare Tear.

I wouldn't recommend using a Nightmare's Tear in your tanking gear. The 32 stam meta (which you should be using) requires 2 blue and 1 red to activate. Obviously blue will be taken care of, and use 1 red gem in the slot where you can activate the highest +stam socket bonus possible. The helm usually has the highest bonus of +12 stam, and legs/boots usually have +9 so whichever is highest that you can plug a red gem into, do that. Use either a dodge/stam or expertise/stam red gem for the slot, leave the nightmare's tear for dps and healers, you'll get more out of one of the 2 red gems I mentioned.

Vole
07-20-2010, 05:50 PM
Alright, so what I was doing originally is correct then? Great.

Armory updated with the new shoulders and belt :D

Gm also said when we kill Lich King heroic mode (having member problems holding us back) I can switch and to get farming all the stuff I need.

Vole
07-25-2010, 09:49 AM
Ok, bumping this for a final question. I've read a few places and its saying the hsx6 rotation is what I should be using. However, when I use it, I gain less threat then what I would using IT,PS, HS (rinse and repeat).

Am I missing something?