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quietus
07-15-2010, 09:57 AM
I find your site very useful and thank you. I am new to the 80 scene and i think I am ready for ICC 10 im in a newer guild that does not seem to know all the specifics. We are wiping to often and I am trying to Identify what is the cause. So far Healers oom, and I think our DPS is low But I am unsure of what level is appropriate for ICC 10 man. I Currently put out in raid environment around 5k (sometimes higher and sometimes lower) And i am often Top in our group, some are only around 3k. I cant find a straight answer to that question what is appropriate for ICC 10. I think the DPS amounts are leading to prolonged fights that cause OOM on heals. Also as far as Proper make up. We use 2 tanks and 2 heals fill in with dps after but should it be 3 mdps and 3 rdps or other? Here is my toon (would also like advice) Blood DPS off spec Frost DPS.
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Cairne&cn=Evelinn

Thanks for your help

Aggathon
07-15-2010, 11:09 AM
If you want to post people's armories that are in your 10 man raid or at least the names then if I get a chance later tonight and I might go more in depth.

2 tanks and 2 healers should be enough if all 4 are good players to heal everything except dreamwalker, blood queen, and sindragosa.

As far as DPS goes:
3k dps is REALLY low in ICC10 since there is a 25% increased damage buff. We had a ret paladin come to our first ICC10 raid (where we cleared 8/12 in 1 night) that had hit 80 3 days before that and he did ~5k dps. Granted he did pretty much nothing but grind badges in those 3 days so he had okay gear, but still I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for at least 5k DPS in ICC10. Can you get higher? Sure, but I'd say 5k as a baseline is good.

As far as group comp, it doesn't matter a ton for normal modes. Make sure you have as many buffs covered as possible but I've seen some really weird group comps do really well.

Quinafoi
07-15-2010, 11:30 AM
Look up everyone in your group on wow-heroes as a very basic method of determining what content is appropriate for them. This is a very general way of measuring what raid instances would be appropriate for them at their current gear level.

For example, here is yourself on wow-heroes.
http://www.wow-heroes.com/index.php?zone=us&server=Cairne&name=Evelinn

Notice the bar with all the raid instances on it.

Green is something that should be considered easy or definately appropiate.
Yellow is something that should be a moderate challenge but provide better rewards.
Red is something that should be difficult for you and while the rewards may be great you may simply not be able to handle the content.

Your rating is currently lower because you logged out with a fishing pole on. Wow-heroes uses armory data and kind of puts it in perspective, kinda like an off line gear score system but visually represents how difficult the instances would be based on your current gear level. I suspect however that even with your appropriate weapons equiped, you will probably still see Icecrown Citadel in red (or difficult).

Aggathon
07-15-2010, 12:43 PM
Wow-heroes is a dangerous topic though because gearscore is EASILY misused and there are several arguments against gearscore.

While for the average joe WoW-Heroes is a decent benchmark, it is DEFINITELY not the end-all-be-all. <Undergeared> proved that.

So yes, while wow-heroes is a good tool, just know that it is just that, a single tool in the raiding machine.

Kinda like the guy you've raided with (everyone knows the guy) that you just know wears a hat backwards when he raids, has a headset but only uses it for his mic and lets it dangle around his neck but INSISTS that he ALWAYS use his speakers for vent instead... and every time he picks up the mic you can hear him moving it around as he takes his hands off his keyboard while running into a wall or fire or what not so he can talk way too loudly... you know... a tool...

Loganisis
07-15-2010, 12:55 PM
As far as group comp, it doesn't matter a ton for normal modes. Make sure you have as many buffs covered as possible but I've seen some really weird group comps do really well.

A new guild with little ICC experience is going to have problems with less than 4 range (or 3 if 1 range is amazing) on Saurfang getting the blood beasts down. That would be the only word of caution while Saurfang is still on progression for your guild - 4 range would probably be ideal when learning the fight.

4 range would also be valuable with Putrice on progression for getting the green slimes down. The two fights are less stressful with more range (though everyone still has to do their job correctly, it doesn't make it easy, just more managable). The others aren't much of an issue as long as you have at least 3 ranged (which can include healers) for fester.

Quinafoi
07-15-2010, 01:21 PM
Wow-heroes is a tool.
Gearscore is a tool.

A socket wrench isn't broken just because you don't know how to change a tire.

The tool isn't bad just because people don't know how to use it. It is a great tool, the problem is the community and misuse of it.

In this conext if used properly, wow-heroes doesn't tell them necessarily that they "can't" do ICC. It tells them that there are probably still upgrades prior to that they could get that would make ICC easier. This isn't about comparing one's epeen to another, but trying to find your own place where you can both improve yourself and succeed.

Martie
07-15-2010, 01:23 PM
Gearscore isn't a tool, it's a epeen meter.
Whatever minimal uses it has are far better served by a multitude of other options, like inspecting people.

Theotherone
07-15-2010, 01:41 PM
Gearscore isn't a tool, it's a epeen meter.
Whatever minimal uses it has are far better served by a multitude of other options, like inspecting people.

BLASPHEMY - Gearscore is everything; Gearscore > Skill; Gearscore Rules - Trade Chat says so.

Actually, if you're just starting ICC and none of you have really ever done it; I suggest three healing up to Surfang, then two heal Surfang with one heal having a dps os; then go back to three heal; until you all get comfortable. Also, going oom is not too common these days in ICC 10 reg.

Loganisis
07-15-2010, 01:46 PM
Gearscore may be a tool, but it's like using the handle of a very large screwdriver as a hammer. I've done it in a pinch, but it's hardly the best tool for the job... although maybe a sledgehammer to hammer in a finishing nail might be a better example - it looks like it should work well, but looks are deceiving.

Quinafoi
07-15-2010, 01:58 PM
Yes you should use 3 healers as a begining group. Until you are comfortable with the content it is safer to have additional healing and take longer on the fights while mastering the mechanics.

The basic raid composition should be the following...

2 tanks.
3 healers with at least one if not multiple that can switch to DPS if needed.
2 ranged dps minimum, 3 would be preferable.
2-3 melee dps

If you run with fewer than 3 ranged dps, you are forced to have a healer stand at range on fights where it may be better served to have them stand in melee (such as Festergut where you need 3 ranged targets for Vile Gas). Other fights such as Blood Queen Lanathel should have at least four ranged however a healer standing at range has less impact in an encounter like that.

quietus
07-15-2010, 02:23 PM
As far as my self is concerned With my Tyrannical WOW-heros and imba both say im in range for ICC 10. I send a lot of time trying to figure out best dps for myself I know i am ready for it (though suggestions for improvement are always greatly appreciated.) Websites like maxdps.com are very helpful for figuring on gear. I do have a few items of higher gear items in my inventory but as i found that my hit rating was 260 over cap i changed to some lower but higher dps gear. Thank you for the help. And I have to agree that GS is very fickle for determining raid members for instance my gs is 4999 (add-on number) and several people in the raid group have me by a few hundred points yet i out dps them (excluding tanks and heals) . As far as my dps it is in ICC between 4.5 to 6k it is the low end of acceptable as i have found out thanks to your informative posts. I believe that we need to have a talk with some of the raid members as to their spec and rotation. I think that our problem is on the dps end and maybe some under gear issues on heal I am not sure. At least I know that 2-2-3-3 is a proper make up baring some exceptions.

Quinafoi
07-15-2010, 03:09 PM
A DPS starting in ICC should be doing around 5,000 or more DPS prior to the ICC buff. That was basically the minimum before the buff existed. The buff simply means that those who are only able to do 4,000 DPS can now do what was required for the instance. However, the fact that these players are underperforming what is expected at that content level by 25% (and only attaining the minimum because of the buff) may be an indication that they are not skilled enough either. A buff makes things easier yes, but if you lack the skill to get out of fire, 25% more isn't going to help. If you have the gear, but are underperforming what you should be at that level, then that may indicate other deficiencies.

I would strongly advise against using only two healers as a new group. Later when you have mastered the content you can reduce healers but if you're learning it you will find it significantly more difficult if you are running with only two healers.

Loganisis
07-15-2010, 08:21 PM
A DPS starting in ICC should be doing around 5,000 or more DPS prior to the ICC buff. That was basically the minimum before the buff existed. The buff simply means that those who are only able to do 4,000 DPS can now do what was required for the instance. However, the fact that these players are underperforming what is expected at that content level by 25% (and only attaining the minimum because of the buff) may be an indication that they are not skilled enough either. A buff makes things easier yes, but if you lack the skill to get out of fire, 25% more isn't going to help. If you have the gear, but are underperforming what you should be at that level, then that may indicate other deficiencies.

I would strongly advise against using only two healers as a new group. Later when you have mastered the content you can reduce healers but if you're learning it you will find it significantly more difficult if you are running with only two healers.

^ Yep

You might want to have your DPS spend some time researching their rotation and go work on a level 83 target dummy to get everyone's DPS up. Understanding your rotation is the single best way to improve DPS.

quietus
07-16-2010, 04:26 AM
You might want to have your DPS spend some time researching their rotation and go work on a level 83 target dummy to get everyone's DPS up. Understanding your rotation is the single best way to improve DPS.

I started this Process last night, I started with DKs in the guild, as i know that class best. It was amazing what a 20 min conversation about rotation, proper dps talent points, and macros did for one of them that i know of. We had one that was geared about the same as I. He was pulling 1.5k outside ICC which is totally not acceptable. Just the discussion of rotation brought him up 1k dps in the instance he was in. I took a look at his gear made some suggestions on spots of improvement and what out of place spec points he had (eg. 5 points spent in Toughness and nothing in bladed armor (those 5 points only thing in frost tree). As far as 5 k outside of ICC I cant do that. In Uld i am only getting 4k raid buffed, Except for frost badges there is no way to get better gear(I think) and that is taking forever. In fact teh choke on Frost badges is (expletive deleted) me off. Some info on other places to get frosties would be great, outside of daily random and Weekly.

Fledern
07-16-2010, 04:45 AM
For an icc benchmark, look at undergeared. They're all in blue 200 gear, nothing epic, even enchants requiring abyss crystals are forbidden. I know those dudes can do 4.5K-5K on fights like festergut, so your raid should be able to do a lot more. Undergeared posts their combat logs on world-of-logs too so you can go & examine their performance on a fight by fight basis and know what to expect of your raiders.

The jump from 5-man heroics to raiding is a big one if you're all inexperienced. However, if you can fix your performance levels, you should pick up the raiding mindset pretty fast and the kills will start rolling in.

Oh also, use worldoflogs or similar combat log parsers to study what's going on in your raids. It'll help a ton.

Links: http://greedygoblin.blogspot.com/search/label/Undergeared
http://www.worldoflogs.com/zones/Icecrown_Citadel/

drae
07-16-2010, 05:27 AM
Gear is not as important as proper execution... and mashing your buttons really hard. =D

srsly the best DPS'ers I've met make their keyboard sound like a machine gun.


http://www.youtube.com/user/Kripparrian#p/u/22/VgDjG_0ecTI

Watch Kripp's video, it helps explain how to get the most DPS out of your class.

Exiledknight
07-16-2010, 10:31 AM
Ok well since your armory is the only one posted, I am going to say it, your spec is terrible. Frost dps is a DW spec period, you want to swing a two hander you need to be unholy. I would recant any advice you gave to other DKs because if you do not know what each tree is used for then you really do not know the class. Visit elitist jerks they have a pretty solid DK section there and follow the unholy thread. My first venture on my DK alt which was DW frost in much much worse gear than yours and sitting at a 5% buff I was pulling well over 5k dps both my 1h were blue and a few other items were blue as well. With your gear in a proper spec 6-7k should be the minimum.

quietus
07-16-2010, 02:30 PM
Ok well since your armory is the only one posted, I am going to say it, your spec is terrible. Frost dps is a DW spec period, you want to swing a two hander you need to be unholy. I would recant any advice you gave to other DKs because if you do not know what each tree is used for then you really do not know the class. Visit elitist jerks they have a pretty solid DK section there and follow the unholy thread.

Yes that is my off spec which i use for AOE situations, My blood spec is my main Take another look. It is solid. I rarely use the frost spec, its like a quick i know there is a ton of trash up here and i want to HB the hell out of it, but i do thank you for your input.

On the other hand..... Just because i have a bad off spec dose not make my advice bad. My advice was to check out elitstjerks, skeletonjack (a purely all dk website with great info) maxdps.com, and be.imba.hu ( another gs site that also gives great advice on proper enchants and calculates your HR cap for you) . I tried unholy and did not like the play style I use Blood (which is the 2h tree since it is the one with the 2h talent) 51/0/20. My advice was also if you are dps get ride of tank talents. I should recant that? My advice was to look up your proper rotation. Should I recant that? You jump to conclusions based on half info and smashing my character ( as in me RL) is not constructive. If you left it at your frost spec is awful then that is fine. If my advice was so bad why did the one get an extra 1k dps after my discussion.?

Exiledknight
07-16-2010, 03:58 PM
Yes that is my off spec which i use for AOE situations, My blood spec is my main Take another look. It is solid. I rarely use the frost spec, its like a quick i know there is a ton of trash up here and i want to HB the hell out of it, but i do thank you for your input.

On the other hand..... Just because i have a bad off spec dose not make my advice bad. My advice was to check out elitstjerks, skeletonjack (a purely all dk website with great info) maxdps.com, and be.imba.hu ( another gs site that also gives great advice on proper enchants and calculates your HR cap for you) . I tried unholy and did not like the play style I use Blood (which is the 2h tree since it is the one with the 2h talent) 51/0/20. My advice was also if you are dps get ride of tank talents. I should recant that? My advice was to look up your proper rotation. Should I recant that? You jump to conclusions based on half info and smashing my character ( as in me RL) is not constructive. If you left it at your frost spec is awful then that is fine. If my advice was so bad why did the one get an extra 1k dps after my discussion.?

Blood is really a tank tree right now. However you are right I did jump to a small conclusion that you bought dual spec to actually use it, what about unholy did you not like vs blood? As far as dps DKS go, the first in any guild etc should be unholy for ebon plague and all after that should be DW frost, I honestly believe my advice should really stand since you are playing a sub par dps spec but to each their own, I will stick to my min/maxing. Anyway regardless of all that there are a few things you should be changing in your blood spec

1.Meta gem, 21 agi and increased crit dmg
2.You have multiple str/hit gems they should be str/crit gems
3.Tuskarrs vitality on your boots
4. iirc for blood the war banner is much better than the war token(but I may be wrong never looked into blood dps since it is subpar)
5. Take 1 out of epicdemic and move it into Ravenous Dead

In terms of gaining 1k dps....well that would put them at 2.5 right? That should be able to be done in lvl 70 raiding gear

quietus
07-16-2010, 05:18 PM
Thank you, yes you are right but that was without them doing a respec also i am not playing them, My build is one point off from the blood build on EJ ( i did go check out their info on blood) It may have been my spec in unholy that turned me off, i was doing less dps with it. I also have not been flasking so i should see some more there and thank you for constructive criticism I will look in to the gems The meta i am using is because the one i wanted i did not have the right gem combo for so i changed to the one i have. What is the gem called for str crit?

quietus
07-16-2010, 06:41 PM
Just need to know what gems should i change to get the 2 blue gem required for chaotic sky?

Exiledknight
07-17-2010, 12:50 AM
Soveirgn Dreadstone and a 10 to all stats gem. I know there was a point where blood beat out unholy but I thought that was back in t8 and t8 gear where you should be coming out ahead as unholy in personal dps, or you could be right on the brink where a few more upgrades and unholy will push ahead, so you may want to revisit that with a few upgrades.

Goros
07-18-2010, 05:59 AM
Unholy and DW Frost are the best 2 dps specs for DK's right now, pretty much hands down.

On my DW frost spec self buffed I can maintain 6100 DPS over 5 minutes on the boss dummy in ironforge without using a zombie pet or army. Just have to make sure Horn is maintained and both diseases are up 100% of the time and that you keep using Oblit whenever it's up, and FS as your RP dump. Blood strike whenever you can to keep death runes there, and avoid using IT or PS as part of the rotation, only to refresh diseases.

I advise getting powerauras as well as a rune/runic power/disease tracking meter to help with this.

Exiledknight
07-18-2010, 01:08 PM
Unholy and DW Frost are the best 2 dps specs for DK's right now, pretty much hands down.

On my DW frost spec self buffed I can maintain 6100 DPS over 5 minutes on the boss dummy in ironforge without using a zombie pet or army. Just have to make sure Horn is maintained and both diseases are up 100% of the time and that you keep using Oblit whenever it's up, and FS as your RP dump. Blood strike whenever you can to keep death runes there, and avoid using IT or PS as part of the rotation, only to refresh diseases.

I advise getting powerauras as well as a rune/runic power/disease tracking meter to help with this.

Idk if you are doing it and neglected to mention FS with a Killing Machine proc is your top priority, over Obliterate.

Also Blood as lower gear levels actually comes out ahead of unholy or frost, I just don't remember where the cutoff it for it and the OP I think is right along the line where it could go either way.

quietus
07-18-2010, 06:09 PM
Tell Me When is a Great add-on tool to use for knowing when Killing machine and freezing fog is up FYI. But doesnt OB proc Freezing Fog and therefor important? ( i know that KM is from deathchill but i have it macro-ed to an action so i hit it as often as possible)


And maybe Also Blood as lower gear levels actually comes out ahead of unholy or frost, I just don't remember where the cutoff it for it and the OP I think is right along the line where it could go either way.

Maybe this is why i was turned off from Unholy, due to me specing that when i was fresh 80 and doing less damage then my blood spec.

On another note the player that was only pulling 1.5 after going through his talent tree and the rotation issues fixed he is pulling 4k now :)

Exiledknight
07-18-2010, 07:17 PM
Other than for AoE HB is only better than wasting a GCD not doing anything. Power Auras is the best addon to track the killing machine and freezing fog procs.

quietus
07-23-2010, 06:58 AM
So i changed my second spec to the unholy on EJ, still doing less damage by far, read further into the post and even EJ says that Unholy is for iLVL 251 and higher, ( I am guessing that the 2p t10 item's set bonus is the main reason)since I am having issues with getting frosties Blood is going to have to do till I get at least a 2p t10, I have increased my DPS to 4k out of ICC and doing 6-7 in, got into a 10 man core we start tonight we will see how it goes. Last week i PUGed and got to Gunship but noone in the PUG had done the fight.... I looked it up on here afterward and think it should be easy. So to anyone reading this and are not in Scouragelord gear I suggest blood spec to get there. It is a solid build with a tight but easy rotation. 51/0/20 Rotation is as follows: PS IT HS HS DS DC (HoW if not enough RP for second DC) DS HS HS HS HS DC DC if your target is still up and your diseases still up repeat second phase. DS HS HS HS HS DC DC, If new target or dieseases down start at beginning. There is absoluty no wasted CD on this rotation. This rotation utilises the 2 second rule. Still trying to figure out best time to use hystria though.

Dedic
07-23-2010, 05:45 PM
I'm not sure if it's accurate, but www.wow-heroes.com is an armory that shows you what raids you can handle. Just look everyone up on there maybe...