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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- Cataclysm Talent Revamp



Lore
07-13-2010, 04:50 PM
-hJ0bqMwsAE

http://www.tankspot.com/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

Scottpoet
07-13-2010, 06:02 PM
Good info. I would like to add something to the customization issue... Glyphs. Major, medium, and minor. That in itself could add a lot to changing a player's style.
Even once the talents trees are decided, I am pretty excited to see just what all can be done from new and changed glyphs.

Ervanna
07-13-2010, 08:23 PM
Frozen orange juice. Must. Buy.

tuffcooky
07-13-2010, 08:23 PM
I am really interested to find out how the redefined talent system will affect leveling new characters - in particular the classes where each tree plays a completely different "role" like pallys and druids. Leveling in Cata may require a lot more group interaction for those of us drawn to tank and healing specs. I am looking forward to seeing how it all works out =).

Knighterrant81
07-13-2010, 08:35 PM
Really when you look at this, they're giving us more choice. Like Lore pointed out, what's the point of the Red Button of Noob, except to point out that someone is a Noob. What better way to turn off new players to the game!

So, they cut out a lot of the chaff from the talents; stuff that no one ever takes, or just take really to get to the next juicy ability they want. They should (and sounds like they are) recognizing that WOW is about min-maxing, and anything that doesn't benefit your chosen role is always going to lose out over something that does. For example:

Talent A gives you +10% healing.
Talent B gives you more movement speed.

No healer will take Talent B. If the disparity is big enough, not even pvpers will take talent B.

Instead, they just give everyone talent A, and give you the choice between B and C:

Talent B gives you more movement speed
Talent C reduces spell damage taken or something else that's cool but doesn't directly affect what you're min-maxing.

That's a real choice for a min-maxxer. Its sort of like how the glyph system works now for certain classes - your first glyph or two are pretty much required, but the 3rd glyph can be switched out from fight to fight as necessary since there's no clear min-max winner, or that winner may be different from fight to fight.

Kawdi
07-13-2010, 09:23 PM
Just read in a blog that the 31 pt talent trees are up on the beta. Not sure if the beta servers are up yet but they went under for maintenance and people are getting the patch for it. WTB beta invite....NOW.

*Pushes red button behind Mimiron*

Bloodhawk
07-13-2010, 09:36 PM
From the information you've given Lore, I think I like these changes. Personally, I find the current talent trees overwhelming. There's too many options to choose from, and I'm always afraid that I've chosen "bad" talents and thus am always finding myself looking up "cookie-cutter" talent builds on the internet.

Also, to add to what Scottpoet said, I'd like to know more about the new tier of glyphs. From what I hear of these I, too, think that it is a very necessary upgrade.

Maverickroll
07-13-2010, 10:04 PM
nice over 9000 reference

doom1992
07-14-2010, 01:29 AM
With these changes, I sure hope for example with warriors, they put deflection (5% chance to parry) into the prot tree rather than the arms tree, and the same with other talents for other classes. Hopefully with this, they will only put general talents or talents specifically for that tree in the tree. For example, there are loads of talents for feral druids in restoration. I hope they change it so that everything for feral druids is in feral, and everything for resto druids are in resto. Ofc should leave those things that are good for both or all three there (like armoured to the teeth for warriors).

Infusion101
07-14-2010, 02:28 AM
No black screen where i have to pause it this time?:(

Ajire
07-14-2010, 03:06 AM
For once you are not entirely accurate, Lore.

There is in fact a few effective specs that does not fill one single tree completely with 51 points. Take the "Shockadin" for example: Fill Holy until you get Holy shock and the rest in retribution. This is still a fairly popular pvp build.

The old UA tanking build for Warriors is another example, though it's effectiveness has declined.

There are also certain warlock Demonology/destruction hybrid builds.

Such builds are being removed, for sure. Not that I say it is a bad idea, because there are many more hybrid builds, that are just terrible.

Trexokor
07-14-2010, 03:56 AM
For once you are not entirely accurate, Lore.

There is in fact a few effective specs that does not fill one single tree completely with 51 points. Take the "Shockadin" for example: Fill Holy until you get Holy shock and the rest in retribution. This is still a fairly popular pvp build.

The old UA tanking build for Warriors is another example, though it's effectiveness has declined.

There are also certain warlock Demonology/destruction hybrid builds.

Such builds are being removed, for sure. Not that I say it is a bad idea, because there are many more hybrid builds, that are just terrible.

I believe they've already said that they don't like when people do hybrid trees for PvP, just to pick up all of the PvP talents, which is the whole reason they eliminated the duration reduction talents in the first place.

There are a couple of situations I know of where players will take half of one tree and half of another in legitimate ways (ie: not niche PvP trees). The two I can think of off the top of my head are the AP+10% and Improved Icy Talents Blood/Frost hybrid for DK, and the Demo/Destruction setup.

But again, they call these failures on their part and want to get rid of them anyway.

CatabriOnEarthen
07-14-2010, 06:04 AM
The Felguard/Ruin spec for warlocks was a hybrid, and while it *could* be used for PvP, by picking up the PvP talents, it was actually a really good raiding spec for a long while--without the PvP talents.

Eressëa
07-14-2010, 07:05 AM
Orange Juice from concentrate? Disgusting!

jvoodoochild
07-14-2010, 07:41 AM
The issue I have with the limitations involved with the proposed talent tree changes is that I want to be able to customize a toon and play in a fashion that suits me. Not every spec, and not every player has the same game goals as the herd. What is the harm in offering lots of options so players can define for themselves what role they wish to play?

A perfect example is my off spec on my DK. It’s a farming spec, it has points in Unholy for a faster mount and a permanent pet, then finishes out with 41 points in Blood to get a wide selection of self healing abilities. The finial spec is not a DPS topper nor a PvP power house but it is a spec that I enjoy for periods of time during my game experience.

I am not a very good solo player, so while leveling a shaman I choose enhancement, but with a twist. Are you sitting down? I skipped dual wielding… and complimented my shield wearing shaman with some of the more defensive minded talents available. So no not everyone sees the game as press the Green button win, press the Red button fail.

It’s my time, it’s my subscription fee. Please allow me to continue to choose the way I play this game. Whatever consequences my choices has to how I fit into the community is my issue to resolve.



-Joel

Akeber
07-14-2010, 08:09 AM
I've never understood the "I'll spec/play badly if I want to. it's my $$" argument. It's like paying to go to a water park and trying to "climb" the water slide, going jogging with dive flippers, or trying to play golf by holding the club end and hitting the ball with the shaft. Sure, you can, but why when there are "accepted" ways of playing that just work better, even though they may not be intuative to you at first. Learning the "proper" way will always yield better results in the end.

Kazeyonoma
07-14-2010, 09:42 AM
the problem with the "i want to spec how I want" thing is that it doesn't, it allows bad players to spec poorly, and it restricts blizzard in talent creation because if they put anything halfway decent too early in the trees, min/max players will create specs that dip into all the trees it wants to create some sort of "uber" spec. It's why so many talents in WOTLK got pushed down or rearranged because it made things too good for people who used half/half specs for pvp, or for gimmick overpowered pve specs. While "keeping your options" is a grandiose idea, in the large scheme of things it just restricts people from being able to just spec a certain way and move on, without blizzard worrying about rebalancing everything everytime someone comes up with a dumb spec that proves overpowered.

You'll want your 31 point talent, that's all blizzard is saying/doing here. GET IT.

feralminded
07-14-2010, 12:22 PM
The issue I have with the limitations involved with the proposed talent tree changes is that I want to be able to customize a toon and play in a fashion that suits me.

The major issue with this is that in order to facilitate your "I want to hit the big red button if I damn well please" mentality Blizzard has to give the rest of us a sub-par game experience. That's not worth it and I'd rather they deliver a clean, effective, and more balanced experience to everyone else who doesn't have any interest in the big red button. Ultimately what people have to reconcile is that making design sacrifices that make the game worse for the majority to facilitate the freedom for the minority is just a poor decision. It's the real world equivalent of the traffic authority saying "We're going to put up 1-way signs on this road but we're not REALLY going to make it illegal to drive the other way. If people want to drive the wrong way down that road and kill themselves then that's their right ... it's their lives to do with as they please!"

I applaud Blizzard for making this choice as it should in fact improve the experience of most of us including the new-comers who have no experience with the past system at the cost of very few. Honestly the fact that people will learn now not only how to play their class but how to play their spec is a very welcome change. I still shudder when I think of running into the net-new max-level players using insane specs and doing things like speccing mostly fury and using a shield because it "protects me better in melee" or whatever. I know blizzard can't teach players to be good but they can at least lead them somewhat down the right path.

jvoodoochild
07-14-2010, 12:23 PM
I've never understood the "I'll spec/play badly if I want to. it's my $$" argument. ... Sure, you can, but why when there are "accepted" ways of playing that just work better, even though they may not be intuative to you at first. Learning the "proper" way will always yield better results in the end.

It’s simple really, there isn’t just one way to play this game. You have your way of playing that is fun and exciting to you, believe it or not that will be different for other people. So what is accepted by the majority to be the best in one area will fail in another area. By having more choices it allows people the freedom to play in a way that is enjoyable to them.


… it allows bad players to spec poorly.

Bad players are going to be bad players no matter what you do. And while the number of choices may be reduced in a 31 point tree it only makes the choices that much more impactful.


… without blizzard worrying about rebalancing everything everytime someone comes up with a dumb spec that proves overpowered.

WoW is a living program that is continually changed to bring new and interesting content. IMHO, while they try their best, there is no way for the developers to account for every aspect of the game to make a truly balanced game, and if even if they did, the next mechanic will come out four months later that will spoil the balance somehow, somewhere.

Predakhan
07-14-2010, 12:29 PM
Obviously it is still really early but I am not too thrilled with feral tree. There really aren't the choices that blizzard has stated we will have.

jvoodoochild
07-14-2010, 01:00 PM
The limitations that I alluded to are “Must spend 31 in your main tree” and “at max level there will only be 10 points that can be spent in another tree”

Is it a sub-par game experience for you to allow me to min/max farming talents that can and are in different trees? I know that farming is a minority of game time activity, but I’m not asking for a whole tree that specializes in farming.


…Honestly the fact that people will learn now not only how to play their class but how to play their spec is a very welcome change

To me I see the changes doing the opposite of what you state will happen. I remember when I first picked up the game seeing Shadow Form in the cities and thinking "That’s cool, I want that". In order to do that I had to level in shadow in order to earn that ability. Which player will know more about their class? A player who gets Shadow Form at level 10 then is slowly introduced to the rest of the shadow arsenal, or a player who had to rely on those basic shadow spells in order to progress in level for the prize of completing the synergy of a spec arch type?

acidhak
07-14-2010, 06:36 PM
Mostly I think lore is spot on, and his epic euphemisms continue to make my lol.

One tree that I can see having trouble during leveling (this of course without seeing the changes to the trees) is a holy priest. When I leveled mine I first went down the disc tree to get meditation than switched back to the holy tree. Mana issues for holy are pretty severe in the lower levels and with the faceroll people out there I can see holy being unworkable until you get to be ~70-75.

Then again who knows what we are up against until we see it so this may all be negated by the changes.

I personally think that it would be more interesting to concentrate the trees and still allow people to put points in any tree. The different combinations of crazy OP specs would be fun to watch unravel. EPIC THEORYCRAFTING!

Knighterrant81
07-15-2010, 03:43 AM
I read somewhere once that choice in game can be cultural - so perhaps, a culture like ours that prizes individuality strongly reinforces behavior like creating strange, unique specs, simply to be unique and contrarian.

Some people are just uncomfortable with being a, say, Protection Warrior, when that doesn't really make them unique, it just makes them one of a large group of people in the game. I know, when I first started WOW, I was one of them. Coming from a tabletop world, it is very easy to be the only character of a particular "splat" (in wow terms, splat would be your Class and your Talent Tree, D&D, Class and Alignment, and so forth) or combinations of splats in your troupe. Some people play tabletops so that they can be unique characters, and they come to WOW with that attitude. Although it doesn't necessarily have to come from just former tabletop RPG players, I think this is the sentiment that causes people to look up and pick the craziest, oddball, unsupported specs, just because they can guarantee that NO ONE else takes their spec. They hit the Big Red Button, just so they aren't just another Green Button Pusher.

For example, Paladins, over the course of Wrath, have had the most trouble with this. Rogues have skipped their 51pt talent in PVP, but that was pretty much the way Blizzard was supporting Rogue PVP (because Hunger for Blood was just too much damage to allow them to take Prep, Rouges can't survive in PVP without Prep, and Shadowstep couldn't cut it in Wrath of the Burst King) and muti/prep doesn't really fit what we're talking about here. We saw Holy/Ret, which was OP but made sense, and Prot/Holy, which was obviously an unintended consequence of Paladin design. Blizzard has spent pretty much all of Wrath just trying to fix tiny things they overlooked in the Paladin class overhaul (putting Repentance in reach of Holy Hybrids, allowing Prot to convert Stam to Spellpower, poor tanking performance around about early Ulduar, the massive burst of 3.0 Ret combined with defensive cooldowns) that people exploited. That was design time that was basically wasted because they were going back and fixing what they'd already tried to fix. The end result is, once again it looks like they're dumping the entire Paladin design in Cataclysm. (personally, I think they need to move more of the trainable defensive cooldowns into the talent trees, but that's another topic)

The new talent system creates concentrated coolness. You have fewer choices, yes. But those choices are (hopefully) much more meaningful. And it also allows Blizzard to more easily predict and balance for player choices. Sure, maybe you can't get your Shockadin, but Blizzard (and the rest of the WOW playerbase) doesn't have to worry about waking up on patch day to discover that suddenly Paladins are doing disgusting amounts of ranged DPS (or, to be fair, absolutely terrible melee DPS) or something. That means more design time into improving the game, and less design time into fixing outliers.

As for uniqueness, thats something you'll have to get over in an MMO. Find the "splat" you like to play, and try not to worry about how many other people play your spec. You'll be a better player, and a happier one. There's a reason there's cookie cutter specs after all: they're pretty much just better. They're just trying to make it so you can get the cookie cutter spec, and then have a few talents left over that you can spend how you like, and be your own unique snowflake.

You aren't unique for hitting the Red Button, just being contrarian. Blizzard is better off building the game for the 99% of other people who just want to hit the Green Button without having to get an advanced degree in their class.

Dedic
07-15-2010, 05:44 AM
@Akeber

Just because someone doesn't conform to the accepted ways doesn't make them wrong.

I don't know how I feel about the new trees but if they are removing freedom from the player then I can respect those who take exception to it.

hageos
07-15-2010, 08:01 AM
i just looked at the new talent calculators and i got to say i dont like the fact that a ret pally cant use divine sacrifice . before i stopped playing wow i downed the lich king and one of the main strategies in the guild i was in was that all paladins had to have divine sacrifice if not gaurdian . and we used it constantly . the guild downd him in 25 man @ 10% and i downd him at 15 % . this is my toon http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=The+Venture+Co&cn=Hageos and yes i know i dont have the most 1337 gear but i was pulling 9k dps for a ret paladin and for the gear i had on and for the spec i used . it was tailored to the paladin tank that specced deep into ret so i could get divine gaurdian with hte least amount of dps talents taken away . ret is also my offspec , i was mainly a tank with full sanctified gear and 3 heroic pieces when i stopped at 15% . although i do like that paladins seem to be getting more dps related talents i dont like the fact divine sacrifice will not be an option as its served me so well in the past

Bashal
07-15-2010, 08:59 AM
Some people are just uncomfortable with being a, say, Protection Warrior, when that doesn't really make them unique, it just makes them one of a large group of people in the game....

That kind of contrarian attitude that you describe may very well be true, but I think new players have a much simpler explanation for their odd builds (the same reason my first toon had an odd spec). It goes something like this:


Hey, what's this flashing button? Talents? That's new. Ok, it says I have one point to spend. Oh look, three trees...hmmm...there doesn't seem to be anywhere good to spend this one talent point. +1% crit, +1% dodge, or -1 rage on my heroic strike... wow, these all suck. Hmm.. some nice stuff waaay down at the bottom. Jeez, that'll take forever! I want something useful now, and these are all crap.

Well... I get hit a lot, so I'll take the dodge. I guess in four more levels, with +5% dodge, that might make some noticeable difference.

/shrug.And thus, a noob is born.

Akeber
07-15-2010, 02:18 PM
Just because someone doesn't conform to the accepted ways doesn't make them wrong.

Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole may not be "wrong", but it certainly isn't right.

jvoodoochild
07-16-2010, 06:40 AM
Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole may not be "wrong", but it certainly isn't right.

Nor is thinking that there isn’t a square hole.

Say a guild wants the scorch debuff in their 25s. Is it Blizzard’s intent to limit player innovation to say the fire tree is a DPS tree with some tricks, so work within that tree exclusively? Is it “wrong” or a “sub-par” game experience to say to your guildies, hey you stick to straight boss DPS, and I’ll support you with buffs from my tree, control (polymorph) from your tree, and I may even throw some points into frost for some trash aoe goodness?

It’s a HUGE game, and not every situation is going to be solved with a simulator build based on perfect conditions.

Skirataado
07-16-2010, 06:18 PM
I believe they've already said that they don't like when people do hybrid trees for PvP, just to pick up all of the PvP talents, which is the whole reason they eliminated the duration reduction talents in the first place.

There are a couple of situations I know of where players will take half of one tree and half of another in legitimate ways (ie: not niche PvP trees). The two I can think of off the top of my head are the AP+10% and Improved Icy Talents Blood/Frost hybrid for DK, and the Demo/Destruction setup.

But again, they call these failures on their part and want to get rid of them anyway.

Most of what Lore says is reasonable and helpful, however in the case of builds with less than 51, not exactly the case. A blanket statement like "right now no one really spends less than 51 point in their given tree," and saying something is as binary as a green and red button is suprisingly closeminded. Two such builds i've enjoyed using for my prot warrior are the Unrelenting Assualt build and a lesser known DW+ImpCleave build (15/14/43 (http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LAM00fZhxfZVIdrx0zidIzk:Mhf)). I'm not saying the changes are bad or that the game will be less fun without the option to make these builds, just that this assumption wasn't the best one.

Kazeyonoma
07-18-2010, 01:08 AM
Imp Cleave is 100% terrible if you're giving up shockwave,sword and board, damage shield, and 2/3 critical block. I'm sorry, that just doesn't make sense at all, to sacrifice those 3.66 talents, to do 266 more cleave damage... These are EXACTLY the types of builds blizzard wants to avoid happening because they aren't well thought out. Yes you get a little more cleave damage, yes you even glyphed for cleave for an extra target, you glyphed for lower rage cost thunderclap (which i don't really understand since if you're aoe tanking, you have plenty of rage to tclap on it's 6 second coolddown), and you glyphed for sunder armor. But a few things. Damage shield in that duration coupled with 3/3 critical block will likely generate more threat across multiple targets anyways, having sword and board increases your critical strike chance of devastate by 15% something that you'll be spamming since you glyphed for sunder armor, and lastly, not having free shield slams + shockwave doesn't make any sence at all. Shockwave + Tclap combined together is possibly the highest front loaded aoe threat combo of any of the 4 tanks, yet you're giving up the main component of it. Combine that with the fact that during the stun, you can shield slam 1 target for massive burst of threat, then cycle through the rest with devastate, (which if glyphed generates 5%*AP more threat, that you're giving up), ALL while cleaving would be more beneficial to you then this pseudo cleave spam spec you've created.

Dedic
07-19-2010, 05:58 AM
Trying to fit a square peg in a round hole may not be "wrong", but it certainly isn't right.

I find your analogy to be less than adequate. As jvoodoo has already explained why, I will just leave it at this: the game is called "World of Warcraft", not "World of Pegs and Holes".

Knighterrant81
07-26-2010, 02:04 AM
As Kaze has pointed out, there is a right and a wrong answer to specs. That's why there are cookie cutter specs. Someone has spent way more time than you have thinking about your talents, and has figured out the best way to spec (or at least can argue why on just about every point).

With talents, you really have to consider your goal with your spec. It could vary depending on what you are doing. You could be solo leveling, leveling through dungeons, leveling through pvp, you could be raiding, you could be doing heroics, you could be doing bg pvp or arena pvp. Heck, you could even be a Hunter soloing old content; each situation calls for different sets of abilities.

Regardless, there is always a right answer. At the very least, if you get out there in the real Azeroth, and find that something you researched isn't working as well as you though it would, you experiment for yourself. But if someone who's put in a lot of time and effort into testing talents says something, you might want to examine *your playstyle* instead of *their posted spec*. I'm doing this right now with my new Hunter. I put all my talents into pet survivability. Turns out, I pull aggro off my pet. Guess I should have put some pet damage talents in there too! I thought the posted spec looked funny. Turns out it was a good idea after all. (I still don't get why people take imp. Revive Pet though, maybe my pet will die all the time now that I'm dumping survivability talents o.O).

Take leveling. When leveling, your goal (one can assume) is to level as quickly as possible. You will take talents that reduce downtime. That means, talents that increase survivability, increase burst damage (as opposed to sustained damage that is more important for long encounters instead of going from mob to mob). Movement speed, resource return, and flat modifiers will all increase your leveling speed. Whatever gives you the most efficient leveling speed is the right answer. You can quibble in places, but generally the right answer will be clear, or made clear through testing.

Now, that doesn't mean you can't pick up whatever talent you like. But don't expect to be the most efficient leveler. Similarly, you won't be as good as you could be at BGs, 5 mans, or the like - and you most likely will be sat during raids because you fall behind due to your refusal to respec (which your raid leaders/officiers/class-mates harp on you for daily). You will also be mercilessly slaughtered in arenas.

If you like to play like that, fine. Most of us don't. We want to get to the next goal, be the best we can be at our toons. Don't complain when Blizzard decides that having to do hours of research after every patch to find the right answer isn't the way they want people to play the game.

Now what is interesting is the new philosophy on utility talents. This provides much more "quibble room". If the choice is between utility and utility, there will be multiple right answers, and my right answer will be different from your right answer. Thus, we will have interesting choices without potential pitfalls for new players.

jvoodoochild
07-27-2010, 11:37 AM
The cookie cutter spec on EJ for arc mages does not include Slow. Congrats you’ve just failed several boss fights where the spell is invaluable. Now before the wipe the cookie cutter spec did more DPS than the clear with Slow, but you can’t cash in meters at the gear vender.

All cookie cutter specs do is give the highest possible DPS, HPS/M, or TPS under ideal circumstances. Someone please refute that statement. The game is composed of nothing but un-ideal circumstances. Because of that, I rather play with someone who thinks for themselves than a drone. But that’s just me.

Please read the related Blue posts. The talent changes where meant to bring more cool and more impactful talents than what is seen today. The intent is NOT (as people have stated in this post) to make it harder for a newb to pick a “bad” spec, nor is it meant to take out the need for heavy number crunching to obtain the “best” DPS

IMHO forcing everyone (when they didn’t before) to pick talents from level 15 to 69 in one tree exclusively is not a positive step. It stifles creativity which just so happens to be one of the things I enjoy the most in the game.

-Joel

Bashal
07-28-2010, 03:58 PM
It stifles creativity which just so happens to be one of the things I enjoy the most in the game.

There are lots of ways to be creative in the game. While there's room for creativity in a spec, you can really only carry that so far before a spec, while original, isn't really of much benefit regardless of the situation you find yourself in.

People shouldn't chase after being a special snowflake just for the sake of being a snowflake. Snowflakes melt.

harrythered
08-03-2010, 06:49 AM
A good and positive outlook on a pretty poor talent overhaul :P Unfortunately we will see much more 'cookie cutter' talent builds due to less talents available and again some pretty awful choices left..on a pale horse?.. just no.....
Blizzard forced people into 'cookie cutter' builds due to some pretty poor options within the talent tree and this seems like an easy way out.....I have tried the beta tree's on wowhead and find myself taking talents I don't want/need or are just useless to get the '31' talent.
It is a big change to the game Cataclysm and maybe it would have been better to concentrate on making one thing really good instead of several things not bad.

Stoutale
08-03-2010, 07:25 AM
I feel that they have taken the craft out of my war.

(on that note, I honestly think I might be dropping all of my points into my Protection Warrior talent tree at this point, maybe they should give us at least 3 resets to use within a month after it resets)

Bashal
08-03-2010, 08:47 AM
Blizzard forced people into 'cookie cutter' builds due to some pretty poor options within the talent tree and this seems like an easy way out.....

As long as there are talents which boost PvE or PvP performance, there will be cookie-cutter. There will always be something that is "best" mathematically on some spreadsheet somewhere. The only way they can eliminate that is if all talents had little effect on PvP and PvE play.

...in other words, a bunch of talents nobody wants. :P

I'm not saying they got all of the optional talents right in these new trees, some people feel their class has bad options, and I'm not going to argue that. But I think the biggest issue Blizzard had was balancing specs. The more points people got, and the deeper the trees went, the more possible combinations of talent point investment was were to worry about.

They had to make a change like this, imo, because the trees were getting too messy, and there were too many people looking for (and finding) spec loopholes.