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Sky
07-04-2010, 04:05 PM
Feedback is always welcome, in order to improve this guide.

Introduction-

Hi! My name is Sky or BlueSkies, and I've written a guide intended to help people to become knowledgeable with the Torment the Weak/Fire (TTW/Fire) Spec for Mages.

This guide assumes the reader is raiding Icecrown Citadel, or wants to raid Icecrown Citadel.

This spec brings extremely high DPS, 5% spell crit debuff, and Focus Magic to the raid.

TTW/Fire becomes superior to Arcane in sustained DPS past a certain gear point because of how TTW/Fire scales. Arcane also suffers from scaling issues from reaching the soft and hard haste caps with a certain level of gear. Fire also has the advantage of superior itemization compared to Arcane when using ICC gear.

Here is a comparison of the benefits between Fire vs. Arcane-

Fire- Superior sustained DPS, Vastly superior multi-target damage ability for AoE damage. The more AoE damage there is through Living Bombs, the more more Hot Streaks will proc, increasing single-target damage as well.

Arcane- Less gear reliant, superior controlled burst damage. Burst damage is superior through two ways, some of the strongest cooldowns in the game and intelligent usage of Missile Barrage. Very mana efficient with 2T10. (http://www.frostnova.ch/tachyon/blogArticle.do?action=view&id=38567936)


Table of Contents-
1. Talents
2. Glyphs
3. Stats and other Things
4. Gear
5. Mods and other useful Programs
6. DPSing Priority order
7. Cooldowns
8. ICC25 and Heroic Halion Boss fights tricks

1. Talents-

Talent Spec-
The basic spec, with all required talents, is 18/51. http://www.wowhead.com/talent#of0Vck0cZ0Ec0RhIhVubhct

The last two points can be put into Magic Absorption, Student of the Mind, Arcane Meditation, or Flame Throwing. It’s entirely up to a person to decide which talent points are the most important.

In the second tier of Arcane Talents, it’s entirely reasonable to move one or two points from Arcane Concentration or Student of the Mind to Magic Absorption if a situation calls for it.

What the Talents do-

Improved Fireball- Reduces the base casting time of fireball by .5 seconds, at max rank this is from 3.5 seconds to 3 seconds.

World in Flames- Increases the critical strike for Flamestrike, Pyroblast, Blastwave, Dragon’s Breath, Living Bomb, Blizzard, and Arcane Explosion by 6%. This is a solid talent, by investing 3 talent points, Pyroblast and Living bomb, two of the three main fire spells, gain 6% critical strike chance. Blizzard and Flamestrike are used for AoEing as well, making this talent useful for trash.

Ignite- Everytime a fire spell crits, it leaves a dot that ticks twice for 20% of the damage done, for a total of 40% of the damage done. This spells ticks every two seconds, but this can be pushed back if another spell lands and critically hits before the first tick goes off. When this occurs, the Ignite pool, in other words, the total amount of damage Ignite has to tick, will be increased by that amount.

Here is a easy way of understanding.

This following scenario presents what happens when a fireball crits.
00:00:00 Fireball lands and crits for 10,000, creating a Ignite pool of 4,000
00:00:02 Ignite ticks for 2,000, Ignite pool is now 2,000
00:00:04 Igite ticks for 2,000, Ignite pool is now 0.

Now this scenario presents what happens when a fireball critically hits consecutively. (ignoring Hot Streak here)
00:00:00 Fireball critically hits for 10,000, 4,000 Igite pool
00:00:02 Ignite ticks for 2,000, 2,000 left in Ignite pool
00:00:03 Fireball critically hits for 10,000, 6,000 Ignite pool (2,000 left from the first critical hit fireball, 4,000 from the new critical hit fireball)
00:00:05 Ignite ticks for 3,000, 3,000 left in Ignite pool

A somewhat-important thing to know is the phenomenon of Ignite Munching. This occurs when two spells critically hit simultaneously. When this happens, the Ignite of the earlier critical hit is lost.

This most often happens when Hot Streak is Immediately used at the end of Fireball, resulting in both landing at the same time. If both of them critically strike, then the Ignite from the Fireball is lost.

This also happens with Living Bomb. If Living Bomb explodes while a Fireball or Pyroblast is in flight, the Ignite from the Living Bomb is lost.

This is quite annoying, and there is not much that can really be done to offset this from happening. One thing that can be done is to always prioritize Living Bomb over Pyroblast, and hold off from casting Pyroblast until the Living Bomb explodes if the Living Bomb is almost done. This runs the risk of wasting Hot Streaks.

Other methods utilizing the instant-landing nature of Fireblast and Scorch are almost certainly not worth it, except in the case of moving. In this case, it is not a bad idea to do Fireblast then Hot Streak while moving, if the last spell that landed was a not a critical strike to avoid wasting Hot Streaks.

Pyroblast- One of the three main fire spells, this is only used in conjunction with Hot Streak. This spell, since patch 3.3.3, both has a higher critical strike chance than Fireball and hits harder than Fireball. Combined with its instant cast nature with Hot Streak, this is a much more potent ability than Fireball.

Burning Soul- Reduces spell pushback by 70% and reduces threat by 20%. The 20% threat reduction is very valuable here, since it is preferable to not use 3 seconds to drop threat with invisibility. The spell pushback is very valuable for boss fights like Marrowgar, who’s Bonestorm causes constant spell pushback. With this talent in combination with Concentration Aura, the mage will be immune to spell pushback.

Flamethrowing- Increases the range of all fire spells by 3/6 yards. This talent is useful if there’s a risk of going out of range, or a large boss fight area. This talent is relevant for certain boss fights, Marrowgar, Lady Deathwhisper, Professor Putricide, Valrithria Dreamwalker, and most importantly Lich King.

Improved Scorch- Increases the critical strike chance of Scorch, Frostfire bolt, and Fireball.

The relevant parts of this talent is increasing Fireball critical strike chance by 3%, and the Improved Scorch debuff. If there is no warlock using Improved Shadowbolt, then it is up to the TTW/Fire mage to keep up the 5% debuff. Sucks to be you.

Master of Elements- 30% of base mana cost is refunded when a spell critically hits. This is the biggest source of mana regen by a significant amount.

Playing with Fire- Increases all spell damage by 3%, and increases all spell damage taken by 3%. This really means dealing 3% more damage and taking 3% more damage, because all damage you do will be spell damage, and the majority of raid damage done by bosses is spell damage.

Critical Mass- Increases critical strike chance by 6% for all fire spells. This really means all of the spells you cast, since Fireball/Pyroblast/Living bomb are fire damage.

Fire Power- Increases all fire spell damage by 10%, pretty self-explanatory.

Pyromaniac- Increases critical strike chance by 3% and 50% mana regeneration while casting. This is another important source of mana regeneration.

Molten Fury- Increases all damage done to targets below 35% HP by 12%. This talent essentially gives Fire mages an “execute.” Cooldowns should be popped when boss HP goes below 35% if possible.

Combustion- A cooldown that increases critical strike damage bonus by 50%, and causes each fire spell to cast to increase critical strike chance by 10%. This lasts for three direct-damage critical strikes. This cooldown should be used when a trinket proc with spell power has procced, or with the 4T10 bonus, or both. This is because the effect of Combustion is increased when a direct damage spell that crits, crits harder.

Empowered Fire- Increases the spell power coefficient by 15% for Fireball and Pyroblast. Also regenerates 2% of base mana every time Ignite ticks. This talent gives Fireball and Pyroblast an incredibly high spell power coefficient, far more than most other DPS spells.

Hot Streak- When 2 direct damage critical strikes caused by Pyroblast, Fireball, Fireblast, or Scorch occurs consecutively, the next Pyroblast ast will be instant. This talent is the reason why Pyroblast is used for TTW/Fire, as it makes Pyroblast, normally an unbearably long cast, instant-cast.

Burnout- Increases spell critical strike damage bonus by 50%, and increases the cost of critical strikes by 5% of base mana cost. This increases your damage from critical strikes from 150% of a normal hit to 175%. The increases mana cost is pretty trivial. This spell also increases the damage Ignite does, since Ignite damage is based on how much the critical strike hits for.

Living Bomb- The third major TTW/Fire spell, this ability leaves a 12 second dot on the target. The dot ticks 4 times total, and at the end of 12 seconds, an explosion occurs. The explosion hits harder than the dot, and is also a 10 yard AoE direct damage spell.

Every hit of the explosion counts towards Hot Streak, meaning that if multiple enemies get hit by the explosion, Hot Streak can proc several times instantaneously. While this means wasted Hot Streaks, this spell does provide good ways to do more Hot Streaks.

This spell is not worth using if the enemy dies before the explosion goes off.

Living Bomb is an extremely powerful AoE spell if the explosion is allowed to occur. Do notice that it takes 12 seconds for Living Bomb to explode, so the Effect of Living Bomb is measured by how long the trash pack lives –after- 12 seconds.

In other words, if the trash pack lives for 24 seconds, then that’s 12 seconds of Living Bomb explosions. This is an important distinction because most AoE spells like Seed of Corruption or Mind Sear do not have to worry about this. To put this into perspective, imagine what would happen if 24 seconds was changed to 16 seconds. There would only be 4 seconds of Living Bomb explosions compared to 12, which is a much more drastic reduction in AoE damage than Seed of Corruption or Mind Sear.

Arcane Subtlety and Arcane Focus are filler talents to access the rest of the Arcane tree.

Arcane Concentration- 2/4/6/8/10% chance of a clearcasting state, which makes the next spell cast cost no mana.

Magic Absorption- 40/80 Spell resist, and fully resisted spells regenerate 1% of total mana. This is a strong PVE talent because most raid damage is spell damage, so a mage can take a significant amount of less damage in a boss fight.

Student of the Mind- Increases Spirit by 4/7/10%. Not that strong of a talent, but it does increase your crit strike chance. It’s not a very strong talent because the closer a mage gets to Best in Slot gear, the less spirit the gear will have. Complete Best in Slot has no spirit at all. At or near this point, Student of the Mind will be a very weak talent.

The first point is more valuable than the second and third points.

Focus Magic- The reason why everyone else loves mages. The recipient of this ability gains 3% critical strike chance as long as the ability is up. This also grants the mage 3% critical strike chance for 10 seconds every time the recipient critically strikes with a spell.

Order of usefulness for Focus Magic, assuming all things are equal-

1. Fire Mages
2. Shadow Priests
3. Elemental Shaman
4. Arcane Mages
5. Warlocks
6. Balance Druids
7. Frost Mages

Torment the Weak- The main reason for going down the Arcane tree instead of the frost tree for Icy Veins. This talents causes Fireball and Pyroblast to do 12% more damage on slowed and snared targets, and in a raid, the boss will almost always be affected by Judgements of the Just, Infected Wounds, Thunderclap, or Icy Touch. Those abilities count as a slow because they reduce the boss's attack speed and will enable Torment of the Weak on the target.

2. Glyphs-

There are only three viable choices for glyphs, Fireball, Living Bomb, and Molten Armor.

Glyph of Fireball- Lowers cast time of fireball by .15 seconds. This is weaker than the previous incarnation of 5% more fireball critical strike chance, but still solid.
Glyph of Living Bomb- Living Bomb ticks can now be critical strikes. The critical ticks can also cause Ignite.
Glyph of Molten Armor- Molten Armor grants another 20% more critical strike chance from spirit. This increases your critical strike rating from spirit from 35% to 55%.

3. Stats

There are three main stats for a TTW/Fire mage, which are Spell Power, Critical Strike Rating, and Haste.

Hit is assumed to be hit capped.

TTW/Fire gains no hit from talents, so 13 or 14% will be needed. 3% hit will be provided by either a Shadow Priest or a Balance Druid. 1% more hit may be provided by a Draenei.

The usefulness of each stat compared to each other relies on your gearset. One particular gearset may place the order of importance in Spell Power>Haste>Crit, while another gearset may have Crit>Haste>Spell Power in order.

Spell Power- Increases the amount of damage spells do. Fireball and Pyroblast have a 115% and 130% spell coefficient respectively, meaning that the formula for those spells would be-
Fireball Damage = ((888-1132) + (115% of spell power)) * (Talent Modifiers)
Pyroblast Damage = ((1190-1510) + (130% of spell power)) * (Talent Modifiers)
Living Bomb follows a different formula.
Living Bomb Damage = (345(20% of Spell Power) + 345(20% of Spell Power) + 345(20% of Spell Power) + 345(20% of Spell Power) + 690(42.86%)) * (Talent modifiers)

Haste- This increases increases the speed you cast. For TTW/Fire, a desirable level of haste is to have enough haste so that three fireball casts are affected by the 2T10 bonus. This requires about 650 haste assuming all raid buffs. Of course, the more haste, the better. Depending on gearset, haste still may be the most valuable stat. Another useful amount of haste to have is 1175, meaning that with Heroism, it will be possible to fit in four fireballs within the 2T10 Mage bonus.

Here are the useful milestones for haste, ignoring the effect of lag. These all assume full raid buffs.
650 Haste- Fitting in three Fireballs within the 2T10 bonus.
781 Haste- GCD is at 1 second with 2T10 bonus.
925 Haste- Fitting in four fireballs within the 2T10 bonus with Heroism and Black Magic active.
1175 Haste- Fitting in four fireballs within the 2T10 bonus with Heroism active.

All of these numbers were calculated using http://milamber.ch/spellhastecap.html

Critical Strike Rating- This stat increases the chance of critical strikes. This stat is very powerful for TTW/Fire because about 40% of damage done will be through Hot Streak and Ignite. Both of these abilities cannot occur without critical strikes. Critical Strike Rating becomes better the higher a mage’s critical strikes chance gets. Usually, depending on gearset, as a mage’s gear gets closer to Best in Slot, critical strike rating becomes the most important stat.

At a certain amount of haste, Critical Strike Rating starts to become noticeably better than haste because GCD will become capped at 1 second with enough haste.

Critical Strike Rating also provides more haste indirectly by increasing 2T10 uptime through more Hot Streak procs.

Spirit- Gives critical strike rating through Molten armor.

2T10 Bonus- This gives 12% haste for 5 seconds. Realistically, this really means (5 – GCD) seconds of 12% of haste. The importance of this set bonus is to have it apply to as many casts as possible, not have as high of a % of uptime as possible. Having this bonus apply to the first .1 second or 1.5 seconds of a fireball cast does not matter, because the casting time of the fireball will be the same either way.

Gemming-

Meta- Chaotic Skyflare Diamond
Red Socket- Runed Cardinal Ruby, Potent Ametrine, or Reckless Ametrine depending on what is better for your current gearset.
Yellow Socket- Either Reckless Ametrine or Potent Ametrine, depending on what is better for your current gearset.
Blue Socket- Purified Dreadstone.

For TTW/Fire, -ALL- socket bonuses, except for ones that give Intellect and Spirit, are worth getting.

4. Gear

Gear-

TTW/Fire Best in Slot*-

Helm- Sanctified Bloodmage Hood (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51281/sanctified-bloodmage-hood)
Neck- Blood Queen's Crimson Choker (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50724/blood-queens-crimson-choker/)
Shoulders- Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51284/sanctified-bloodmage-shoulderpads/)
Back- Cloak of Burning Dusk (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/54583/cloak-of-burning-dusk/)
Chest- Robe of the Waking Nightmare (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50629/robe-of-the-waking-nightmare/)
Bracers- Bracers of Fiery Night (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/54582/bracers-of-fiery-night/)
Gloves- Sanctified Bloodmage Gloves (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51280/sanctified-bloodmage-gloves/)
Belt- Crushing Coldwraith Belt (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50613)
Legs- Sanctified Bloodmage Leggings (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/51282/sanctified-bloodmage-leggings/)
Feet- Plague Scientist's Boots (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50699/plague-scientists-boots/)
Ring 1- Ring of Rapid Ascent (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50664/ring-of-rapid-ascent/)
Ring 2- Ashen Band of Endless Destruction (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50398/ashen-band-of-endless-destruction/)
Trinket 1- Charred Twilight Scale (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/54588/charred-twilight-scale/)
Trinket 2- Phylactery of the Nameless Lich (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50365/phylactery-of-the-nameless-lich/)
Weapon- Bloodsurge, Kel'Thuzad's Blade of Agony (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50732/bloodsurge-kel-thuzads-blade-of-agony/)
Off Hand- Shadow Silk Spindle (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50719/shadow-silk-spindle/)
Wand- Corpse Impaling Spike (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/50684/corpse-impaling-spike/)

*Requires 2 Veiled Ametrine to reach Horde hit cap, not required for Alliance.

Enchants-

Helm- Arcanum of Burning Mysteries (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/44159/arcanum-of-burning-mysteries/)
Shoulders- Master's Inscription of the Storm (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/61120/masters-inscription-of-the-storm/), Greater Inscription of the Storm (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/44135/greater-inscription-of-the-storm/)
Back- Lightweave Embroidery (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/55642/lightweave-embroidery/), Springy Arachnoweave (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/63765/springy-arachnoweave/), Formula: Enchant Cloak - Greater Speed (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/44472/formula-enchant-cloak-greater-speed/)
Chest- Formula: Enchant Chest - Powerful Stats (http://db.mmo-champion.com/i/44489/formula-enchant-chest-powerful-stats/)
Bracers- Fur Lining - Spell Power (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/57691/fur-lining-spell-power/), Enchant Bracers - Superior Spellpower (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/60767/enchant-bracers-superior-spellpower/)
Gloves- Hyperspeed Accelerators (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/54999/hyperspeed-accelerators/), Enchant Gloves - Exceptional Spellpower (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/44592/enchant-gloves-exceptional-spellpower/)
Belt- Etenal Belt Buckle (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/41611/eternal-belt-buckle/)
Legs- Brilliant Spellthread (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/56009/brilliant-spellthread/)
Boots- Nitro Boosts (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/55016/nitro-boosts/), Enchant Boots - Tuskarr's Vitality (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/47901/enchant-boots-tuskarrs-vitality/)
Ring 1- Enchant Ring - Greater Spellpower (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/44636/enchant-ring-greater-spellpower/)
Ring 2- Enchant Ring - Greater Spellpower (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/44636/enchant-ring-greater-spellpower/)
1H Weapon- Black Magic (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/59625/enchant-weapon-black-magic/)
2H Weapon- Enchant Staff - Greater Spellpower (http://db.mmo-champion.com/s/62948/enchant-staff-greater-spellpower/)

Professions-

The three best professions are Engineering, Jewelcrafting, and Tailoring, in that order.

Engineering assumes that Saronite Bombs are used on cooldown.

Engineering is the strongest due to the usefulness of Hyperspeed Accelerators and Nitro Boots. Saronite Bombs and Springy Arachnoweave fill out the Engineering arsenal.

The best profession combination is Engineering/Jewelcrafting.

If you don't want to bother with Saronite Bombs, Jewelcrafting/Tailoring is a good option as well.

The other professions of Blacksmithing, Enchanting, Leatherworking, Inscriptioning, and Alchemy have small DPS differences than the best professions.

5. Mods and other useful Programs


Spreadsheets-

Rawr-

http://rawr.codeplex.com/

Rawr is a program that can be used to calculate how much of an upgrade an item is for you, the optimal choice for gems, and so on. I strongly recomend using Rawr to decide what to gem with what, and what items to go for.

Simulationcraft-

http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/

Another useful tool is simulationcraft. What it does is simulate boss fights and estimates DPS, and what ability usage should look like in a fight. Optimally, actual boss fights should look similar to simulationcraft's numbers, within reason. Don't use this for comparing to fights like Blood Queen Lana'thel, for example.


Mods

Popular Mage mods are-

Magefever
Magealert
Scorchio2
Fortexorcist


These are all popular mods used to keeping track of mage abilities such as Living Bomb or Hot Streak procs.

Power Auras- This mod can be configured to do nearly anything. I use Power Auras for Hot Streak procs, the uptime for Pushing the Limit, when I'm Power Infusioned, when I'm innervated, among other things.

Other very good mods that are useful increasing DPS are-

TimeToDie- This mod tells you the estimated time till the boss's death. This is extremely useful for deciding when and how a mage should use his cooldowns.

Proculas- Very useful for knowing the time left for Internal Cooldowns before they are available to "proc" again. Black Magic, Phylactery of the Nameless Lich, etc., are examples. Do note that Phylactery of the Nameless Lich and Heroic Phylactery of the Nameless Lich are not included, so they will have to be added manually into the code.


The DPS Mods I use are-

Scorchio2- For keeping track of Living Bomb, 5% crit buff, time left until Mirror Image wears off.

Power Aura- For knowing when Hot Streak procs, when I've been innervated, Power Infusioned, if the target doesn't have Living Bomb applied, if I don't have Molten Armor enabled, and the time left on Pushing the Limit.

Proculas- For knowing how long it will be before my Internal Cooldowns are ready again.

TimeToDie- Very useful for knowing how Cooldowns should be used during a boss fight.

OmniCC- Displays the cooldowns left on an ability in seconds and in tenths of a second.

AZCastBar- Displays the cast time of a spell in hundredths of a second.


6. DPSing

The #1 rule for DPSing for mages is to always be casting.

The #2 rule for DPSing for mages is to never stop mid-cast to do a different cast.

On the most basic level for TTW/Fire, DPSing follows the priority order of Living Bomb->Pyroblast->Fireball. However, it is really more complicated than that.

There are three main factors, in no order of importance.
1. Wasting as few Hot Streaks as possible.
2. Keeping up Living Bomb uptime as high as possible.
3. Keeping up 2T10 Bonus as high as possible, in the sense of having it apply to as many spells as possible.

So in the following scenarios, the order of importance will change depending on those factors.
For example, if back to back Hot Streak procs occurs, a mage would not use Hot Streak consecutively. The mage would do-
Hot Streak- Fireball-Hot Streak, or-
Hot Streak-Fireball-Fireball-Hot Streak, or-
Hot Streak-Fireball-Fireball-Fireball-Hot Streak.

This is to allow for higher uptime for 2T10 bonus, because Hot streak will simply reset the 2T10 bonus to 5 seconds. Choosing any of the three Hot Streak Scenarios depends on the last Fireball or Living Bomb critically striking and how close Living Bomb is to exploding.

In general, it is very much preferred to do Living Bomb before Pyroblast. This is because of two reasons-
1. Increased Living Bomb uptime.
2. To avoid wasting a GCD of time of 2T10, which would occur if Pyroblast-Living Bomb was done.
3. To reduce Ignite Munching.

To avoid this happening, pay attention to how much time left Living Bomb has before exploding. If Living Bomb is going to explode within 1-3 seconds, it would be wise to consider holding off using Hot Streak until Living Bomb explodes, then using Living Bomb then Hot Streak. Do not wait too long however, and pay attention to if the last few spells are critical hitting, because avoiding wasting Hot Streaks is desirable.

Remember that Living Bomb is not worth using if the enemy dies before the explosion, so if the boss will die before Living Bomb explodes, do not use Living Bomb even though this will lower Living Bomb uptime.

Generally, for Living Bomb uptime should be between 80-90%, and usually ends up between 84-88%.

Damage Break down for a Tank and Spank fight will usually be-

~20% Ignite
~20% Pyroblast
~50% Fireball
~9% Living Bomb
~1% Other

For boss fights with adds, Living Bomb will make up a greater proportion of the damage. Pyroblast will also start to do more damage than Ignite due to more Hot Streak procs.

Be aware that since Hot Streak and Living Bomb are instants, you can move a bit everytime you cast them and not lose any DPS time as long you only move during the GCD. This a good and efficient way to move if the need to move away is not immediately pressing, such as moving away from the center after dealing with Pact of the Darkfallen on Blood Queen Lana'thel.


7. Cooldowns

Fire's cooldowns favors fights that are about 3:30 to 4:00 in length, because that offers the highest uptime for Mirror image. Fights that are about 2:40 to 3:15 in length are not so preferred, but it's not really so bad because it also means a higher uptime for Heroism.

If holding off using a CD means being able to use it one less time during a fight, then it's not worth holding it off.

I very strongly recommend a mod that tells you when ICD's are about to go off CD, such as Proculas, so you know when they're about to proc, and the "TimeToDie" mod, which is invaluable in helping to know when and how CD's and ICD's should be used or taken advantage of.


This picture represents a Festergut fight, cooldown usage is typical of a 3:30-4:00 minute fight.


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/MyOnlyStar/WoW/fire.png

The two "one thin blue line" represent Heroism uptime. You can see all the CD's that are up between those times, including ICD's such as Siphoned Power (Phylactery) and Surge of Power (DFO). Just try to get as much uptime stacking those as possible. However, it's not really possible to control ICD's without losing DPS because they just proc by themselves, but just do the best possible.

The "double thin blue line" is a line that shows what CD's, in the sense of spell power, that combustion gained benefit from. On the line you can see how Combustion gained benefit from Siphoned power and about 500~ SP Surge of Power.

The “red block” is when I should have popped my CD’s at, instead of where I actually did.

On the other side you can see about two "one thin blue line" that represent Quad Core, the Mage 4T10 bonus. The same idea applies here, try to stack as many CD's and ICD's as possible.

I would have done better if I had popped accordingly to the red marks instead of when I actually did.

The "double thin blue line" represents preferred Combustion usage.

This fight represents the Professor Putricide fight, which was about 7:30 long.


http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e224/MyOnlyStar/WoW/fire2.png

In this Professor Putricide fight, you can see much of the same idea. The third Quad Core+ Heroism was not all that optimal because of where Siphoned Power procced, aka not really within Heroism, but that's ok because lining CD's/ICD's with Heroism is still the best choice.

Of course, it's not always possible to get CD's lined up the way you want them to, due to the nature of the fight, when Heroism is procced, RNG on ICD's proccing, (I'm looking at you, DFO. *shakes fist*) or if the optimal time CD/ICD wise is a bad time in the actual fight, such as having to move somewhere or CC something.

Remember that the execute for TTW/Fire is when the boss is below 35% HP, so it would be wise slightly delay CD's in order to pop them for the execute phase. The execute phase should always be carefully considered when planning CD usage.


8. Icecrown Citadel and Halion Boss Fights

Lord Marrowgar- Since bonespikes are done with a timer, you can predict when they are about to occur. Most strategies for Lord Marrowgar has the raid stacking close to Marrowgar to trivialize the Coldflame, so you can delay Living Bomb slightly so that it will explode when the spikes have just come up, and it will hit the spikes since the raid is stacked up on the boss.

Lady Deathwhisper- Put the focus on Lady Deathwhisper and keep up Living Bomb on her. If using the strat that gathers up all the adds and tanks them on Lady Deathwhisper, you can Living Bomb the adds and AoE them down for big e-peen damage.

Gunship- Living Bomb everything.

Saurfang- Again, it’s possible to slightly delay Living Bomb so that it goes off just as the bloodbeasts spawn. However, do to the significantly reduced AoE damage that bloodbeasts take, it’s not really worth the bother.

Festergut- Tank and spank. Iceblock the first Pungent Blight, get spores for the second Pungent Blight if needed.

Rotface- Tank and Spank. Pay attention to the pipes behind you, if they're shooting ooze, blink away.

Professor Putricide- The adds will most likely survive a Living Bomb, so as a slime spawns, put Living Bomb on it first. Keep focus on Professor Putricide and keep up Living Bomb on him even as you’re DPSing the add. Usually adds don’t live long enough for a second Living Bomb to be worth it.

You can use Invisibility when Professor Putricide is in middle of casting Tear Gas in Normal mode, so you don't get effected by the 20 second stun. Invisibility can also be used for the slimes so that they stop targeting you, much like a hunter using Feign Death. It’s also possible to Ice Block before the green slime reaches you to explode, causing it to stay in place for the duration of the Ice Block. Don't forget to keep Living Bomb up on Professor Putricide heroic during the phase changes.

Blood Princes- If you want to cheat on the DPS meters, you can keep up Living Bomb the fire-user prince and the kinetic-using prince. Don’t living bomb the shadow prince because the Living Bomb explosion can hit the black orbs on the tank.

Blood Queen Lana’thel- You can delay Living Bomb slightly if you’re about to get bitten within 6 seconds of Living Bomb going off. If you get the shadowflame debuff, run away with the debuff, then blink back to your spot. If you get Pact of the Darkfallen, finish your cast then blink to the middle, because you’ll get there before the others by using blink anyway. Go back to your spot by moving a bit every time it’s time to use Hot Streak/Living Bomb instants.

Dreamwalker- Living Bomb is really only worth using on the abominations and sometimes the Blistering Zombies. Flamestrike then Blizzard work well here for rot worms and if the tanks like to gather up adds and tank them in the same spot.

Sindragosa- Living Bomb every Ice Tomb as soon as players get hit by them. It’s sometimes worth recasting Living Bomb on your first Ice Tomb target. If worried about the stacks, you can change spell casting order a bit by attaching instants at the end of every fireball, like this.

Fireball-Living Bomb-Fireball-Pyroblast instead of Fireball-Living Bomb-Pyroblast-Fireball.

Remember that Mystic Buffet applies every 6 seconds, meaning that the stack is renewed every time the debuff gets to 2 seconds. So if the debuff is at 4 seconds, you can pop out, cast an instant, then back behind the ice tomb.

You can use Frost Ward to significantly lower the damage of Ice Tomb if you're targeted.

You can use Ice Block to get rid of the Unchained Magic debuff. If you do this, be sure to use Ice Block as as soon as you get the debuff. Be warned that using Ice Block for Heroic Sindragosa will clear the Unchained Magic debuff, as well as setting off all Unstable Magic debuffs, which will deal damage to the raid around you.

With the 25% ICC buff, you can get to 8-10 stacks of Unchained Magic in P1 with little worry of death.

Lich King- You can cheat on the meters by Living Bombing the Shambling Horrors and Drudge Ghouls. Depending on your raid group, it may worth Living Bombing all of the Val’kyrs that spawn. If they die before the explosion occurs, then it’s not worth it. If a mage gets 2/2 Flamethrowing, then the mage can continue to DPS Arthas during Phases 1.5 and 2.5. Only apply as many Living Bombs that will explode for the Vile Spirits.

Halion- The physical realm is much more favorable for mages. If you're assigned to Physical Realm for P3, then pop all of your CD's at the start of P1, and save Quad Core and Potion of Haste for P3. This is assuming that the kill will be less than 6 minutes. Don't forget you have the ability to decurse Consumption.

Heroic Halion- Set focus on Halion. If assigned to DPS the big add, use a target macro to select it, it's fairly annoying trying to click the big add. Use only one Living Bomb for the big add, chances are a second Living Bomb won't explode. Keep up Living Bomb up on Halion while DPSing the big add by using a focus macro for Living Bomb. If assigned to DPS the small adds, use only as many Living Bombs that will explode. For the Shadow Realm, the best place to be is between the center of the room and the wall, this makes it fairly trivial to not die to Twilight Cutters and makes it easy to drop off Twilight Consumption.

Feedback is always welcome, in order to improve this guide.

leethaxor
07-04-2010, 10:07 PM
TTW remark: Its not the boss will be slowed or snared. Its that the boss will be immune to such affects and because of the immunity that the are subject to TTW.

Push back remark: Push back in general is good, not just on fights like Mar. Any fight with large amount of raid damage push back prevention is good. You could also mention that 70% plus pally imp. conc. aura means total resistance to push back.

Gunship remark: Keep up LB on the riflemen for e-peen dps. (Better then who cares (?) )

Sky
07-05-2010, 12:37 AM
Guide was changed slightly to be more easily understood.

Bosses aren't immune to all slows and snares, just the actual application of snares and certain slowing effects. However, as long the debuff is on the boss, even if not actually effecting the boss, Torment of the Weak is activated.

takolin
07-05-2010, 01:58 AM
Comment on spec:

Student of the mind is not worth it. You're better of with 1 point magic absorption to increase chance on survival. Your healers will thank you on fights with considerable magic damage.


About TTW:

Bosses are immune to normal snares, but tanks should all apply a combat slow that decreases the attack speed of a boss which triggers ttw.

Another haste cap you might want to add:

When raidbuffed you're GCD will be capped under ptl when you got 781 haste.

The reason why crit starts overtaking haste at a certain amount of gear is twofold:

*GCD will be capped making haste for all instants less valuable.
*Crit rating increases PTL uptime which equals to more haste, so crit is 2 stats in one assume you're using the 2set.

Note about BiS list:

BiS sets are depending on race and profession. So you might get better results with a different setup.

Note about professions:

The difference between JC and BS/LW/alchemy/inscription/enchanting all lies withing a 1-2 SP difference and shouldn't be noticeable.

Note about priorities:

Ever since pyro started hitting harder than FB (3.3.5 when pyro got buffed), it should always be prioritized before FB despite the lower PTL uptime. By delaying HS, you also increase the chance of wasting HS procs.

Sky
07-05-2010, 02:27 AM
I'll add about the GCD being capped with 781 haste with PtL.

Also will slightly change the wording on Torment of the Weak to clarify that those slow abilities listed abilities cause the boss to attack slower and thus activate TTW.

Added that other professions are only a bit weaker.

Noted why crit strike rating becomes better at higher gear levels.

You can avoid wasting Hot Streak procs by paying attention to the last Fireball/Living Bomb critting. There is little reason to immediately use Hot Streak if the end result is the same amount of Hot Streaks but higher PtL uptime.

Krenian
07-05-2010, 08:51 AM
Very well written guide and definitely something to keep an eye on. If you do have the time, would you be able to touch upon the Frost and Arcane trees and give out a guide the same manner? I especially like the graph, as you illustrate what the information you give out.

Keep up the good work. :)

(In no way can I say if the guide is accurate; I don't play a mage at all lol But the style and writing is very nicely written.)

Mystik
07-05-2010, 03:17 PM
Bookmarked :)

Awesome job!

Ariedan
07-05-2010, 03:38 PM
I don't know fire as well as I do arcane, but everything looks pretty legit at a glimpse. I've also played with this guy, and he's one of the most analytical mages I've ever encountered. Thumbs up from me.

Ryoushi
07-05-2010, 04:25 PM
Registered so I could say thanks for the brilliant and detailed guide. So, thanks.

I have a question though.
Isn't Robe of the Waking Nightmare (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50629) & Ring of Rapid Ascent (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50664) & Crushing Coldwraith Belt (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50613) superior to your current chest/ring/belt combo? (At least as Alliance?)

I didn't check the intellect or sockets/bonuses, but I compared the stats of both 3-item sets:
#My Set
261 crit
150 haste
98 hit
436 SP

#Your Set
271 crit
122 haste
111 hit
412 SP


Ryo.

Sky
07-05-2010, 04:55 PM
Hmmm, you appear to be right. Updating.

Ariedan
07-05-2010, 04:56 PM
Registered so I could say thanks for the brilliant and detailed guide. So, thanks.

I have a question though.
Isn't Robe of the Waking Nightmare (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50629) & Ring of Rapid Ascent (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50664) & Crushing Coldwraith Belt (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50613) superior to your current chest/ring/belt combo? (At least as Alliance?)

I didn't check the intellect or sockets/bonuses, but I compared the stats of both 3-item sets:
#My Set
261 crit
150 haste
98 hit
436 SP

#Your Set
271 crit
122 haste
111 hit
412 SP


Ryo.

I can answer that for him. The chest has never dropped, and the belt and ring have dropped maybe once, and they went to someone else.

Sky
07-05-2010, 05:16 PM
Very well written guide and definitely something to keep an eye on. If you do have the time, would you be able to touch upon the Frost and Arcane trees and give out a guide the same manner? I especially like the graph, as you illustrate what the information you give out.


Well, TTW/Fire becomes the dominant spec at higher levels of gear, Arcane and Frost are inferior. I don't see the reason to make a guide for Arcane and Frost. Well, some people still like to do Arcane, so maybe I'll do an Arcane one.

Krenian
07-05-2010, 05:49 PM
Well, TTW/Fire becomes the dominant spec at higher levels of gear, Arcane and Frost are inferior. I don't see the reason to make a guide for Arcane and Frost. Well, some people still like to do Arcane, so maybe I'll do an Arcane one.

Understandable I suppose. I have been fiddling with my mage and she's just doing abysmal damage and I've given up on her. It's the first DPS class I simply cannot fathom on how to play properly.

Sky
07-05-2010, 05:58 PM
Well, give me your armory for your mage and tell me what you've been doing, and I'll do my best to help out!

Darksend
07-05-2010, 06:06 PM
Well, give me your armory for your mage and tell me what you've been doing, and I'll do my best to help out!

Word of advice, you do not want your guide cluttered with people linking armories, it gets the guide very off topic. If anything, advise people to make a thread in the HALP forum and have them put a link with the addendum "please keep all comments in the HALP thread"

Sky
07-05-2010, 06:07 PM
Ok!

Krenian, if you don't want to post in the HALP forums, just pm me your wowarmory!

Ryoushi
07-05-2010, 06:41 PM
Thanks for updating.

If you're in the Cata beta, a short guide for the superior levelling spec(s) would be great. I want to be sure I'm 100% prepared :p

Sky
07-05-2010, 06:48 PM
1. Get as geared as you can.
2. Use a spec that has high initial burst or good AoE
3. ???
4. Profit

Ryoushi
07-05-2010, 07:09 PM
1. Get as geared as you can.
2. Use a spec that has high initial burst or good AoE
3. ???
4. Profit

Well, a lot of the stats and the specs are being changed, so it isn't that clear which is going to be better for the dungeons.
Guess my fire levelling spec would work for most situations though, but I'd still like to hear from a Beta tester o:

Sky
07-05-2010, 07:14 PM
Unfortunately I'm not in the beta : (

Krenian
07-05-2010, 07:14 PM
Bah my mage is honestly really a side quest type deal of me playing around with. I'm not pushing really hard on getting better. At most i'm getting her the tier 9 gear and setting her aside. This mana bar thing is confusing and I run out and I am not happy with this lol

Sky
07-05-2010, 07:24 PM
If you get 2T10, you can just use Arcane Missiles everytime Missile Barrage procs! Will also mean little mana issues.

Ryoushi
07-05-2010, 07:31 PM
If you get 2T10, you can just use Arcane Missiles everytime Missile Barrage procs! Will also mean little mana issues.

Can I ask how much of a DPS difference this is? I've compared both several times but only on the target dummies, always roughly the same DPS but AB0234AM obviously has much better mana control.

Mystik
07-05-2010, 07:36 PM
Can I ask how much of a DPS difference this is? I've compared both several times but only on the target dummies, always roughly the same DPS but AB0234AM obviously has much better mana control.

I've been wondering the same thing. I've done tests on target dummies), with nearly the same results both ways :confused:

Sky
07-05-2010, 07:41 PM
http://www.frostnova.ch/tachyon/blogArticle.do?action=view&id=38567936

According to this the DPS difference should be very small, but is much more mana efficient. If this results in having to evocate less, then it may be more DPS.

Doing Missile Barrage every time it procs will mean higher 2T10 uptime, which is why it works well.

Krenian
07-06-2010, 07:45 AM
Maybe I should just go arcane now that I have three pieces of Tier 9. >.> Maybe it's the fact that yanno...I have shoddy gear that i'm doing so bad. lol I'll have to respec her to Arcane cause maaaaan I love Fire but I can't do Fire.

Xodiv
07-06-2010, 08:18 PM
Hi there. Thanks for the guide, it's very good.

It is long though. It's good to be comprehensive but I would encourage you to take time to revise it with intent to tighten it up - remove anything that isn't conveying useful information.

I have (quite a) few comments and suggestions.


TTW/Fire Mage Guide

I don't think this is the right name. I've never seen anyone refer to the spec that way. Most mages would refer to it just as Fire spec; there is no viable fire spec without TTW, only Frostfire spec. Just name the guide Fire Mage Guide, or if you feel strongly about it Fire/TTW Mage Guide.


TTW/Fire becomes superior to Arcane past a certain gear point because how TTW/Fire scales. Arcane also suffers from reaching the soft and hard haste caps with a certain level of gear, limiting DPM potential.

I think you are overstating this. "Theoretically superior in terms of sustained DPS in a tank-and-spank encounter when we ignore ignite munching" would be accurate, but the reality is that player ability separates DPS far more than the difference between the two specs.

Arcane has a lot more burst damage than fire, and that's significant. Often doing 30k DPS for 20 seconds is a lot more important than averaging out 2-500 DPS higher. I know this is the Fire guide and clearly you are a fan of the spec but a bit more balance in giving the negatives as well as the positives would be good.


Flame Throwing

You are underrating flame throwing, and I suspect the reason is that in your guild you aren't applying the scorch debuff. Without Flame Throwing the range of scorch, and thus your range, is 30 yards. This is a disadvantage in ICC.


Ignite Munching

I think you could trim most of this section, leaving it with the basics of "this happens" and "there's nothing useful you can do to avoid it."


Burning Soul ... in combination with Improved Concentration Aura, the mage will be immune to spell pushback

70% is enough to provide full pushback protection with (normal) Concentration Aura. Improved Concentration Aura is not required.


Student of the Mind

It is worth mentioning that the first point is more valuable than the second and third points.


Focus Magic

You listed this as a major benefit the mage brings to the raid. It would be worth listing how to best use it if you see it that way.


Jewelrycrafting

This should be "Jewelcrafting". Needs fixing in multiple places.


It's not worth not using a CD if it means not being able to use it an extra time in a fight.

This is an extremely clumsy/hard to read sentence. A rewording would help.


Fire favors fights that are about 3:30 to 4:00 in length

Given the varied length of fights in ICC and some of them being significantly longer, this seems an odd statement. I know you are trying to get across that you get better average DPS where you get higher cooldown uptime, but that's ont fire specific and I think the statement as written is either pointless or incorrect.


Professor Putricide ... Itís also possible to Ice Block before the green slime reaches you to explode, causing it to stay in place for the duration of the Ice Block

I am told this has been fixed 3.3.5. I haven't exhaustively tested the behaviour but it definitely didn't behave as before when we did this fight last week.


You can use Invisibility for ... the slimes so that they stop targeting you

This is a good way to mess up your raid positioning and get people killed and I would really not recommend it.


Blood Princes- If you want to cheat on the DPS meters

This is a waste of space in your guide. And it's a waste of time to do as well.

And a final point, that you have not covered moving during the GCD cooldowns for Living Bomb and HS-Pyro, which is an important way of maximising Fire DPS.

Best wishes, X.

Sky
07-07-2010, 12:39 AM
I've updated/reworded/corrected/added onto the the guide, but haven't made all the changes due to a time constraint.

I also want to recieve more input if PP really did change in 3.3.5 in regards to Ice Block.

I do Scorch in ICC, because my guild's warlocks don't like keeping Improved Shadowbolt up and rather be destro. My spec does have 1 point in Flamethrowing, but I've never found it a significant issue having to move to get into range.

I've been used to knowing the spec and calling the spec as TTW/Fire since Ulduar, so I'm surprised you've never heard the spec referred to as such before now.

Thanks for bringing up the point about directly noting about moving during the GCD using Hot Streak or Living Bomb, that slipped my mind.

What I meant about cooldowns is that the times on the cooldowns for fire favors a certain fight time, and cooldowns for other classes may favor a different fight time length.

Sky
07-07-2010, 05:57 PM
Ok, I finished changing the guide, but I am not 100% certain if my list for Focus Magic is correct.

Fire mages do have strong burst, just that it is only semi-controlled.

Can any other mages provide input if Ice Block for slimes in PP really did change in 3.3.5?

I just did Heroic PP, the behavior didn't change at all for slimes and Ice Block.

Goros
07-08-2010, 08:28 AM
Nothing changed in PP with ice block.

You may want to add that if you watch for phase changes early enough you can invis just before he stuns everyone and then break invis and continue dpsing while he's working at the table.

I personally prefer arcane over fire, but I'm not really geared to the point where fire becomes a superior spec. It really doesn't shine until you are in mostly 277 gear with nothing below 264.

I also like being able to dedicate my points that would normally be in Hit for fire to dps for arcane, since we only need 210 hit to be raid ready.

Sky
07-08-2010, 12:53 PM
I did mention that you can use invisibility for tear gas, but I'll reword it to make it clearer on the guide.

Fire gets roughly equal/better to Arcane when you're in mostly 264 with some 251 gear, especially on fights with adds or with spell pushback. This is partly due to Arcane hitting the soft haste cap fairly easily, and having to stagger cooldowns loses some of the multiplicative benefit compared to stacking all cooldowns.

Goros
07-08-2010, 02:49 PM
Are you sure about that? I've seen people run the numbers and from what I saw the modeling shows arcane and fire being neck in neck (arcane being win until all 251/264) until fire gets into almost all 277 gear...once that happens fire edges out arcane in the same gear level by around 3-500 dps overall averaged throughout the fight.

Since I'm an arcane junkie I'm going to say that since the modeling shows perfect circumstances, low latency, and a player that never fat fingers, fire loses until all 277 gear is equipped.

World of logs shows fire mages all beating arcane when in all 277, but arcane and fire show neck in neck on a ton of the fights and people's armory's show mostly 264...

Sky
07-08-2010, 06:53 PM
Hmm, I think I worded what I said previously in a bad way.

Not all fights (obviously) are patchwerk style fights, which most modeling measures.

So, since most boss fights in ICC has either adds, target switching, and/or pushback, it is better to go with Fire for ICC once you have mostly 264 with some 251 gear because overall the fights will be better for Fire because Fire generally does better than arcane for those aspects.

If you -really- need high burst for Saurfang for blood beasts, or knocking up Kinetic Orbs for Blood Princes, Arcane is better, but for everything else, off the top of my head, it would be better to stick with Fire.

If people are just going to stick on a boss though, I can't imagine the numbers would be very different.

Goros
07-08-2010, 07:53 PM
Why would target switching matter to arcane? I raid on my arcane mage and target switching does nothing to my DPS. The Arcane Blast stacks don't happen on a target, they are a debuff on yourself. I tab target all the time and never lose dps. I would imagine fire with the need to have scorch and/or living bomb on each target would lose more DPS from target switching.

Plus the fact that arcane has faster casts would probably put arcane at an advantage. When I looked at WoL it wasn't for patchwerk fights, it was for ALL fights, top 10 ranked per fight 10/25 and 10/25 HM.

I like what you did with fire but am hard pressed to think that it does what no one says it can (or what they can show).

Sky
07-09-2010, 01:13 AM
The thing is with Fire with target switching, it's possible to leave LB on the main target (the boss) and put a Living Bomb on the add, and have two Living Bombs ticking. Those LB's can possibly explode and effect the other. Even if they don't effect the other, LB is still a very high damage per execute time. The initial damage done to the add isn't as strong as Arcane, but as time gets to past 12 seconds, Fire will do more damage than Arcane if you do total damage, which would be calculated as boss + add.

It's also not as simple as Living Bomb's ticking, LB's can count towards Hot Streak, and the more adds there are, the more beneficial it is.

On Sindragosa, you can LB on all of the Ice Blocks and the LB explosion will effect the nearby Ice Blocks, causing significant damage and proccing lots of Hot Streaks.

It's why on P3 for Lich King, you can LB a bunch of Vile Spirits and then do chain Hot Streaks from the LB's exploding every GCD and proccing Hot Streak. Arcane doesn't have a possibility of doing something like that.

There's more examples, but these should give the idea for what Fire can offer for boss fights with adds.

Goros
07-09-2010, 07:03 AM
I see what you're getting at, but other than some anecdotal evidence I can't find a WoL where that shows a definitive dps increase over arcane unless the mage in question is in all 277 gear.

I'm not saying it isn't possible, I just can't find anything.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Sky
07-09-2010, 03:24 PM
Well, I don't know what to tell you. Looking at WoL DPS ranking parses, Fire pretty much dominates Arcane, although that could be explained by what you said about mages in 277 gear.

Boss fight closest to Patchwerk, Heroic Festergut-

Arcane #1- 18,754
Arcane #200- 14,705

Fire #1- 23,814
Fire #20- 16,831

Boss fight with Adds, Heroic Professor Putricide-

Arcane #1- 14,989
Arcane #200- 11,709

Fire #1- 17,631
Fire #200- 14,323


Normal Festergut-

Arcane #1- 16187
Arcane #200- 13976

Fire #1- 18,465
Fire #200- 14,523

Professor Putricide-


Arcane #1- 14,000
Arcane #200- 11,964

Fire #1- 15957
Fire #200- 12976


Normal mode parses are more likely to be done with mages with less than full 277 gear, but there's still a pretty decent difference between Arcane and Fire for Normal Vs Heroic, Festergut Vs. Professor Putricide.

I know this is far from concrete evidence, but this is the best I could think of at the moment that has any sort of somewhat useful comparison.

I can't think of a way to compare gear to spec to boss fight, or a site that does that.

Goros
07-10-2010, 08:33 AM
Yeah I just spent time looking at people's armories (since I'm a rawr freak) and comparing the arcane to the fire. Fire in 251/264 is inferior or neck in neck with arcane.

in 277 gear it wins.

Xodiv
07-11-2010, 07:49 PM
With respect to focus magic priorities, there are two considerations: how much benefit the recipient gets, and how much uptime you get.

The second is largely irrelevant in ICC gear as all caster classes have high levels of crit and are casting crit-capable spells frequently enough. There is a slight disadvantage to DoT classes because DoT crits don't proc FM (that I know of).

The first is easy to determine as it is simply how well the recipient scales with crit. See the crit column in this table (http://code.google.com/p/simulationcraft/wiki/SampleOutputT10#DPS_Scale_Factors) for T10-level values.

The only extra complexity is players who are crit capped, which is only likely to be moonkin, but the table seems to reflect that anyway.

Thus the priority order is:

1. Fire Mages
2. Shadow Priests
3. Elemental Shaman
4. Arcane Mages
5. Warlocks
6. Balance Druids
7. Frost Mages

Sky
07-11-2010, 08:17 PM
Updated thread, thanks!

Goros
07-12-2010, 05:41 AM
Blue, I ran a test yesterday out of boredom and put together a fire set for myself (just swapping 4 items of equivalent item level to make hitcap), set up my powerauras strings and macros, and messed around with fire over a period of about 4 hours.

Once I got the rotation down (I included scorch because it was a target dummy) the DPS was very close to each other overall. Self buffed, on a boss target dummy, here is the breakdown.

Arcane - 30k Mana pool, 1 Hasted Evocation, 2 Mana Gems used - 3:15 seconds total uptime, ~6.3k DPS, 1.144M Damage Done
Fire - 26k Mana pool, 1 Hasted Evocation, 2 Mana Gems used - 3:27 seconds total uptime (not including dots ticking down after OOM), ~5.9k DPS, 1.218M Damage Done.

Now, assuming that I screwed up a few times with fire being unfamiliar with it, and that I had a short streak where the RNG screwed me and I didn't get a hot streak as often as I might in a raid, the overall DPS output single target with fire seems to be better, but uptime between arcane and fire is negligible (12 seconds more in fire - yes the spells use less mana but your mana pool is far smaller, so they are neck in neck there). Fire is clearly less bursty, at this time for me (in almost all 264 gear in both specs) I'll be picking the bosses I down with fire vs arcane carefully based on raid makeup and the needs of the fight. I assume that having a warlock in the raid will make it so Scorch will be out of the rotation also giving me one less thing to worry about, which will raise DPS by a smidge.

Here is the video of both so you can take a look and see what I might be doing wrong in Fire. Also, does Potion of Speed outweigh Potion of Wild Magic for fire?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJd-O0uvw5c

Sky
07-12-2010, 06:24 AM
Well, several things to consider-

1. If your armory is up to date, then you weren't optimally gemmed for fire.
2. Fire gets more out of raid buffs than Arcane does. Raid buffs include 5% crit, 5% crit debuff, 3% crit debuff, spell power from either a warlock or shaman. Fire receives more benefit to dps from all of those buffs than arcane does. This is intuitively grasped by knowing the spell coefficients for fire and arcane, and the stats table Xodiv linked should corroborate to this.
3. Your fight time from start to OOM was better for your CD usage. While your mana ended before your AP and Icy Veins ended, you still got about 9 seconds of uptime on them. That's 2.75 uses of Arcane power, and 1.5 uses of Icy Veins.
4. I know you said this, but you aren't used to fire in a raid.
5. Raid buffed, you'll get much more Hot Streaks than you would self-buffed. That plus more Ignites can result in a significantly different damage distribution among your spells. The increased Hot Streaks and Ignites would mean fire sees a bigger jump from raid buffs than arcane.

If you're doing normal mode ICC25, may I recomend the following bosses be done as fire?
-Marrowgar
-Saurfang if you don't have to dps the adds, Festergut to compare yourself to previous resets
-Professor Putricide (although this requires to be good about keeping up LB on PP while dpsing adds, as well as applying a single LB on the slimes assuming they live long enough to explode)
-Sindragosa


Three of those fights favor fire a decent amount over Arcane.

Yea, you won't need to scorch if you have a demo or aff lock, but do be aware that locks may or may not keep up the debuff below 35% because other spells naturally replace them.

Yes, potion of speed is still better than potion of wild magic.

All in all, I'd be sure to be able to get a parse for the bosses you're fire on and see how well you did fire, for a more accurate comparison to arcane.

Out of curiosity, what combat text mod is that?

Goros
07-12-2010, 06:43 AM
1) I know I wasn't optimally gemmed for fire. I only swapped 4 items out of my Arcane set to make hitcap. I should be using more SP/Crit than SP/Haste, but I wasn't going to regem all my gear just in case it didn't work.

2) I'll take a look at the table, but I take your word for it.

3) Yeah I looked at them when they came up for fire but with the mana that was left decided not to tap them

4) Practice I suppose.

5) I'll give it a whirl. I need to start collecting gear for fire, as I was mostly focused on BIS for arcane. Looks like I have to farm up another abyssal rune to replace my talisman of resurgence (I scrapped my old one).

I have my power auras set to warn me if my (or the locks) debuff drops off the boss. (Need to check to see if I have it set for Focus target also...)

We'll be doing Marrowgar on HM, but the other 3 will be normal mode. I'll see about not DPSing the adds, but it's probably going to depend on how much ranged decides to show up (it is summertime).

I'll swap my macro to potion of speed for fire and skip WM except for Arcane.

The addon is miks scrolling battle text.

Sky
07-12-2010, 02:42 PM
That's Mik's? Got it, thanks.

If you have the badges, Mithril Pocketwatch is also an option.

Theotherone
07-13-2010, 10:52 AM
That's Mik's? Got it, thanks.

If you have the badges, Mithril Pocketwatch is also an option.
http://www.wowhead.com/item=40682 is the emblem version; the other is a Brewfest drop. I had forgotten about this an am now going to pick it up for my 3 week old 80 fire mage.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&cn=Violalee. She has some gear/gem issues, but the immediate need was to get GS up and do reasonable dps to get into ICC if I had to pug to get some drops. Seems on my server GS trumps knowing the fights.

Goros
07-13-2010, 11:11 AM
Thanks for the link. I had the sundial for months until I replaced it with the abyssal rune for my arcane spec.

I would almost steer you into arcane instead of fire at that level of gear because arcane is going to do more for you right until you hit all t10 or better equivalent gear.

I do equal dps on arc and fire in the above target dummy video, but like blue said, fire will scale better with raid buffs. I pulled 12.5k on saurfang 25 last week in arcane and hopefully will do more in fire this week. I was swapping to beasts last week also.

When I was arcane in your level of gear I was pulling 7k or more.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Theotherone
07-13-2010, 11:48 AM
Thanks for the link. I had the sundial for months until I replaced it with the abyssal rune for my arcane spec.

I would almost steer you into arcane instead of fire at that level of gear because arcane is going to do more for you right until you hit all t10 or better equivalent gear.

I do equal dps on arc and fire in the above target dummy video, but like blue said, fire will scale better with raid buffs. I pulled 12.5k on saurfang 25 last week in arcane and hopefully will do more in fire this week. I was swapping to beasts last week also.

When I was arcane in your level of gear I was pulling 7k or more.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Yeah, I've been told Arcane is better for me at this gear level, but I really, really like fire - I leveled with it and feel attached. I'm averaging about 6k give or take (did 9.5k the the other day on Fire boss in VoA, but the planets aligned and Hot Streak was proc'ing like mad). That said I intend to dual spec to Arcane also, but with 4 80s it gets a bit expensive; I go through more gems, pots, foods etc..

Deedles
07-13-2010, 12:40 PM
Student of the Mind is crap, and will be gone soon. :)

I find range to always be a DPS boost. Dont'cha hate it when all your abilities are red?


Yeah, I've been told Arcane is better for me at this gear level, but I really, really like fire - I leveled with it and feel attached. I'm averaging about 6k give or take (did 9.5k the the other day on Fire boss in VoA, but the planets aligned and Hot Streak was proc'ing like mad). That said I intend to dual spec to Arcane also, but with 4 80s it gets a bit expensive; I go through more gems, pots, foods etc..


Don't dual spec for fire/arcane. To optimize both requires different gemming, and that would be a giant pain in the behind I am sure.

Goros
07-13-2010, 02:34 PM
Dual speccing is fine, but gearing changes a lot. You need 210 hit for arcane, almost 400 for fire. Crit becomes worth more etc. Choose one to be your main and one for your off, and gem correctly for the main. The other set just have "in case".

OH also...blue...I pulled 10k dps on VoA25 in a crappy pug in fire today. I think I'm sold.

Theotherone
07-14-2010, 08:05 AM
Don't dual spec for fire/arcane. To optimize both requires different gemming, and that would be a giant pain in the behind I am sure.

I'm becoming a bit of an altaholic. As we kind of drift through the end game in advance of Cat, ICC 10 (and to some exent) 25 are becoming pure farm content. Take my hunter for example, there are some specific items it could use for it's MM set, but recently, I've been collecting all the hunter mail without ArPen for a Survival spec set. (I really like Survival better then MM, but MM is a bit better dps). So the other night in ICC 25 I picked up http://www.wowhead.com/item=50040 for 5 DKP. It was me or DE. Frost Emblems are going to Primordial Saronite so my son can get his http://www.wowhead.com/item=49888. When we run ICC 10, there's normally a fair amount of cloth that gets DE'd. So, gearing and gemming both specs will be something to do, between leveling a 'lock, Priest and Rogue.

Sky
07-14-2010, 03:37 PM
Oops yea, I should've said the Sundial, not Mithril Pocketwatch.

I agree there's nothing wrong with dual specs, and like what Goros said I'd gem for one spec and share the gear for both fire and arcane.

How did ICC go as fire, Goros?

Ryoushi
07-14-2010, 05:32 PM
Just out of interest... At what point will my Rawr begin to value Crit over Haste for Fire? Not sure if it considers factors such as professions, but it's choosing haste over crit which I find surprising. My haste is a little low, I guess, until I get DFO, but I'd still expect crit to be superior, no?

Goros
07-14-2010, 06:23 PM
Oops yea, I should've said the Sundial, not Mithril Pocketwatch.

I agree there's nothing wrong with dual specs, and like what Goros said I'd gem for one spec and share the gear for both fire and arcane.

How did ICC go as fire, Goros?

I'll let you know Thursday... voa was an upgrade in 25 man.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Goros
07-14-2010, 06:30 PM
Rawr accounts for diminishing returns, and might recommend crit to a certain point, but then haste to take you to the next dps threshold. After getting more hasty gear, it will probably recommend more crit once it thinks you have enough haste to move the dps up again.
Make sure you have the correct buffs selected in the buffs tab, as well as maintain scorch, maintain snare, hasted evocation and automatic armor from the options tab. Otherwise it will make incorrect assumptions and possibly the wrong recommendations.

Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Sky
07-14-2010, 06:58 PM
Yea, basically what Goros said. What Rawr values haste vs. crit entirely depends on your gearset and current levels of haste and crit.

Ryoushi
07-14-2010, 07:54 PM
Aha! Thank you.
I did update my Options tab now.

Seems if I swap my current trinket to DFO it values crit over haste and I'm going for DFO anyway, so not a problem :).

Kazeyonoma
07-14-2010, 11:34 PM
Stickied for now, please keep editing based on feedback, and thanks for your efforts!

Sky
07-15-2010, 11:55 AM
Will do, and thanks!

Goros
07-15-2010, 10:52 PM
I'm all over the board on damage as fire, but haven't gotten the rotation down and haven't gotten used to watching for different stuff yet.

I see the potential (festergut, rotface, etc) but am not performing to it's potential. It definitely scales better with the buffs, but I took a hefty DPS loss because of personal performance.

Sky
07-16-2010, 07:25 AM
Ooh, ok. Have fun as you get better as fire, or if you want me to look over your parse and analyze, go ahead and whisper me the parse!

Anubis Black
07-25-2010, 10:16 AM
The talent is called Torment the Weak, not Torment of the Weak. That type of mistake was made at the start of the expansion 2 years ago, I thought it was long gone, but I was wrong.

Another reason for Fire's superiourity is the poor itemisation for Arcane in BiS gear. There are no good ilvl277 Bracers for Arcane, since LD 25man HM ones don't have Haste and the next best are the Rotface 10man HM ones which are ilvl264. Also, before the latest patch, Arcane had to use an ilvl258 Trinket in their BiS list, now the Halion 25man HM Trinket helps with this issue, however the Tier items as well as most ilvl277 loot still favours Fire.

Arcane is NOT more mobile. This is utterly incorrect. In fact, this is one of the reasons Arcane falls behind Fire in ICC. The mobility of the fights makes Arcane suffer a lot, due to the lack of strong instants and the reliability on keeping up a steady rotation. Fire on the other hand grants invaluable mobility through Hot Streak, Living Bomb and a strong Fire Blast alongside a priority rotation rather than a dynamic one.

Also, Arcane is definetly not mana efficient. If you want to keep up competitive dps you need to cast as many ABs as possible at 4 stacks and this is extremely mana consuming. The biggest mana concerns arise when you do LK 25man HM as Arcane. This is when you realise this specialisation cannot compete partially due to the mana inefficiency.

Flame Throwing is a must for every self- respecting Mage raiding ICC. This talent is one of the biggest strengths of the Fire specialisation. Being able to stay so far away from the boss leaves you a lot more space for reaction to random events (e.g. tank death, boss abilities, adds etc.) as well as being able to be as high as possible on the threat list before actually pulling aggro. Not including it in your specialisation is a huge mistake. The actual dilemma is between Magic Absorption and Student of the Mind and it depends on your healers and your survivability.

Gemming: Blue sockets: Purified Dreadstone if the socket bonus per blue gem is >= to 5sp; Runed Cardinal Ruby otherwise.

BiS lists are highly subjective. You should state the race (this gives you an idea for the hit cap as well as the racials used) and professions for every list that you make and include the fact that it is dependent on them.

I will comment on the other parts of your guide when I have time to read them.

Regards

Ryoushi
07-28-2010, 07:52 PM
Back, and with Heroic DFO! Woot! Almost pulling the highest DPS in my raid, just a little behind the boomkin & 2 rogues. Another trinket, please! :D


I was just wondering, is there a point at which 63SP will be better than Black Magic? The mage closest to BiS gear on my realm is using 63 rather than BM, so I thought I'd check here if it was preferred once again at higher levels of gear.


Cheers,
Ryo.

Sky
08-01-2010, 08:28 AM
AnubisBlack-

You're right about Torment the Weak, I changed the guide to reflect this.

You bring up some good points about Arcane's mobility and you're right about gear suitability in ICC.

I don't agree that Arcane is that mana inefficient, DPS is very similar by using Missile Barrage on proc to spamming Arcane Blast. There is a good amount of adds on LK25HM anyway, so there's little reason to be Arcane compared to Fire anyway on that fight.

As for Flamethrowing, I understand your point about being able to react to boss abilities, but I don't understand what you mean by "being as high as possible on the threat list before pulling agro." There's only two threat limits, which is 110% in melee range, and 130% beyond melee range. Flamethrowing isn't going to affect this.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about gemming. If you mean that if the socket bonus is equal or bigger than five spell power, use a Purified Dreadstone to get the socket bonus, it's the same thing that I'm saying in the guide. The difference is that that Haste and Crit Rating socket bonuses would also be worth gemming for because they have similar values to spell power.

I did mention the Hit cap difference for the BiS list.




Ryoushi-

I'd switch to 63 SP if Rawr suggests you should, but I don't think 63 SP will ever become better than BM for Fire as long there isn't a strange combination of gear. I'd run Rawr on that mage and check what it says.

Ryoushi
08-18-2010, 04:13 PM
Can't seem to find this for certain anywhere.

Do the ticks/explode on Living Bomb all scale with the spellpower from when LB was applied or by the spellpower at the time of the tick/explode?


Thanks,
Ryo.

Sky
08-20-2010, 02:16 PM
I did some somewhat unscientific testing. I went to a training dummy in SW, applied Living Bomb when I had less than six seconds left on Siphoned Power, and compared the dot ticks before and after Siphoned Power wears off.

Recount -suggests- that the dot ticks have the same spell power before and after the buff wears off, so I would say that-

Living Bomb dot/explosion scale with the spell power from when Living Bomb was applied.

Andreah
08-24-2010, 06:53 PM
A fascinating and highly informative read, thank you very much BlueSkies for an excellent post.

I have a question about AoE rotations for my Fire Mage, during trash clearing. I know it's not nearly as important as Boss fights, but I'd like to make my Mage as efficient as possible during my Daily heroics and while clearing Trash in ICC and other raids.

Obviously, for trash that lasts less than 12 seconds, Blizzard is probably most efficient, as Flamestrike and Living Bomb are too slow to do any real damage.

However, for 10+ trash mobs that last say 20-30 seconds, is it better to living bomb everything in sight, pure Blizzard them, or alternate between Blizzard and Flamestrike. And is there a break point in the number of mobs where it is better to Living Bomb, or better to use an AoE spell?

My own experiences tend to show that 4-6 mobs tend to be better as Living Bombs, but more than that, I use Flamestrike / Blizzard in rotation. I can't find any way of testing with consistent results that tells me if this alternation is better or worse than just using Blizzard, or whether I would be better to just continually Living Bomb everything?

leethaxor
08-24-2010, 07:25 PM
On festergut:
You can invis out of pungent blight, you can use this avoid ever having to gather spores, unless of course you get spores.

Sky
08-24-2010, 08:42 PM
Andreah, use as many Living Bombs that will explode. If a mob pack lasts 20 seconds, use 8 seconds to apply Living Bomb, then do Flamestrike, then Blizzard. This way, all of the Living Bombs you applied will explode.

Living bomb is the single best AoE ability AS long as it explodes.

Leethaxor- Seriously? I wonder why this would work. I had the impression that Pungent Blight is a AoE ability, not a single target ability that just single targets everyone in the raid.

Can anyone else offer a similar anecdote?

Goros
08-25-2010, 03:48 AM
Tear Gas in PP normal is an AOE ability that can be invis'd/cloaked off. I would imagine the effects would be similar.

feralminded
08-25-2010, 06:50 AM
Tear Gas in PP normal is an AOE ability that can be invis'd/cloaked off. I would imagine the effects would be similar.
It can't be invis'd "off", but rather around. I guess that's semantics though, just trying to convey the proper message.

Xcuse
08-30-2010, 08:08 AM
Tear Gas in PP normal is an AOE ability that can be invis'd/cloaked off. I would imagine the effects would be similar.
It also has to be vanished and can't just be cloaked^^

Sky
09-12-2010, 02:25 AM
The guide was changed to include a mod/spreadsheet section and to add Halion to the list of boss fights.

Please give me feedback about the mod section, I think it's pretty weak.

Sky
10-13-2010, 04:51 PM
Take note that I DO plan on updating this guide for Cataclysm raiding. Take notice, -raiding- because my computer died on me, so I probably won't be updating this within the next couple weeks.

Goros
10-14-2010, 05:15 AM
Let me tell you that mages will be getting a massive nerf...especially fire mages... and that whatever you would write now won't matter shortly.

Big changes for those looking to be fire in 4.0.1 - Gem blue sockets as int/hit, yellow as int/crit, and red as int.
Check your enchants as many got deleted in the patching and will need to be replaced. Blizz says "oops, sorry".
Glyphs - yes, we only have 2 prime glyphs at the moment for fire. Living Bomb & Pyroblast. Major - Fireball, Molten Armor, Mirror Image.
Items - the 5pc is worth using now. I reforged hit off items to get to the 25 man raid hit (368) but you can stay at 17% if you are concerned with 5 mans. All the hit went right into mastery.

Unbuffed - 3433 spellpower, 824 haste, 369 hit, 42.62 crit, 10.33 mastery, unbuffed. Hit a boss target dummy for just over 3 minutes without using any cooldowns and sustained 10k dps. Nerf incoming.

Goros
10-15-2010, 01:47 PM
Nerf wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.

Anyway, I reforged everything to mastery, except I ended up at a 16% hit with only about 40% crit. Went to 17 mastery for the extra dot damage, and it helped.

I moved some haste off heroic DFO and made it mastery, and took crit off of heroic spyglass and made it haste.

I aimed for 850-ish haste for a 2 sec fireball, and wound up at 838, which is fine for now.

Pulled 12k in a 25 VoA, so in ICC i'd expect almost 16k? We'll see how everything scales out.

Moved my target dummy dps to the mid 11.5k range up from 10k pre-nerf, but that includes cooldowns and going OOM

Goros
10-16-2010, 08:15 AM
15.7k on Saurfang 10N.

The next nerf went in this morning. See what it looks like later today.

Goros
10-18-2010, 05:05 AM
Ok so I've done a mess of research and it seems that mastery at level 80 has different benefits for different classes & specs, and in the case of Fire Mages might not be worth it.

What I've done is reforged as much crit & hit as I could to haste (because of the way haste effects DoT's now) and still maintained 16% hit and over 40% crit. 16% because I have dranei in both my 10&25 man raids.

Then I gemmed anything that was only 5 spellpower socket bonus to 20 int, and kept my gems to activate the meta in the int/hit purple, and used them in items giving 7 or 9 sp bonuses. Yellow gems went in as 10int/10haste

Will post results later this week.

Potvora
10-18-2010, 08:03 AM
Hi.
Can you post here your armory link?

Potvora
10-18-2010, 08:24 AM
aaa..i found you :)http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Archimonde&cn=Aliiza
but i think armory isnt working..your last activity is on Oct 9, 2010. mine on 12-Oct-2010
My dsp on Saurfang 25HC was 11k with this equip http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Hellfire&cn=Potvora .when we are in raid im seventh in dps with just + 2k dps with all the buffs(icc buff too)..i dont know what im doing bad. so i reforged everything to crit ..now i have about 41% crit, 16.7% hit, 22.63 haste, master 8.63 and 3130 sp unbuffed + i resocketed blue gems, now i use 10 intel and 10 hit. I do about 10k dps on boss dummy..thats more than anyone in my guild..My rotation is: scorch, LB, Fireball, Fireblast(impact or when theres no CD) and pyroblast when hotstreak procs. im casting fireblast bcs it has a big chance to crit. After the reforge of my items i wasnt in raid but im sure i would not be in top5.

Xodiv
10-18-2010, 02:58 PM
16% because I have dranei in both my 10&25 man raids.

Heroic Presence no longer provides a hit buff to party/raid members.

Goros
10-19-2010, 05:50 AM
Heroic Presence no longer provides a hit buff to party/raid members.

Well that's crappy. I wonder why I haven't missed at all on a dummy at 16% though? I used to miss pretty frequently, but I recorded various dps tests in SW and IF (like a couple hours worth of them) comparing mastery to haste reforging and didn't see one miss. Might just have been lucky.

Yes my armory (and most other mages armory) seems to be broken since the patch, because I'm not wearing half that gear anymore as I changed stuff out for fire (it was my arcane set).

Anyway, unless you can get OVER 45% crit, your crit from 20-45% basically has the same impact on your dps, you won't see any changes or benefit unless you go over 45, and well over at that.

Because of the new way haste works for mages, our DoTs last the same amount of time, but can tick more often before ending. Haste is your friend in fire now more than ever. The trick comes in balancing your hit and haste, and figuring out if mastery is worth anything to you or not.

Yes it increases your DoT damage by x%, but in my tests so far, it seems very close to the dps output you'd see in reforging to haste where you could and leaving the rest alone.

I'll find a good answer eventually, but the setups I was testing (I'll make a video demonstrating later this week) were: 3811 SP, 32.02% Haste, 16.2% Hit, 44.59% Crit, Mastery 8 (6202GS). Second one was 3811 SP, 26.59% Haste, 39.10% Crit, 16.05% Hit Mastery 17.17 (6202GS)

In SW where there are multiple dummies taking splash damage, the dps from haste was around 11k where the mastery dps was over 13k. In ironforge (where only 1 dummy takes damage), both seem to sit in the 9.9k-10.5k (using all cd's as well as running OOM on each test, for a true reading).

I have run multiple tests with the same gear setup in the same location to mitigate RNG issues between gear choices, and fraps'd them all. I'm probably over an hour worth of video at this point.

Potvora
10-19-2010, 03:02 PM
Anyway, unless you can get OVER 45% crit, your crit from 20-45% basically has the same impact on your dps, you won't see any changes or benefit unless you go over 45, and well over at that.
Why?
with 20% you have chance that every 5. spell will be a crit. with 45% every second..
i see in your talents that you dont have improved fire blast talent. i dont understand. anytime i cas a fire blast its a crit and when i cast it ater a fireball crit i have a hot streak. i thought fire is about hot streak and crits bcs pyroblast is a massive dmg. if its a crit its massive massive dmg..then you cast a fire blast and you have hot streak again.

maybe its true...: crit to haste..the only way how to know is try it :)

Potvora
10-19-2010, 03:23 PM
ok. i reforged everything to haste..only 0.1sec+casting time of fireball..and i have done many more dmg and dps with arcane..damn it
btw same dps with fire as previously

Goros
10-20-2010, 06:39 AM
Why?
with 20% you have chance that every 5. spell will be a crit. with 45% every second..
It's not a linear increase in change like you seem to think it is. There's a point where your t3 and t4 hotstreak talents intersect and crit becomes more or less useful depending on where you sit on this sliding scale. Here is the link: http://elitistjerks.com/f75/t104767-fire_cataclysm_discussion_updated_4_01_a/p12/#post1766032


i see in your talents that you dont have improved fire blast talent. i dont understand. anytime i cas a fire blast its a crit and when i cast it ater a fireball crit i have a hot streak. i thought fire is about hot streak and crits bcs pyroblast is a massive dmg. if its a crit its massive massive dmg..then you cast a fire blast and you have hot streak again. I have 1 point in it, but the fact of the matter is that the benefit of having 3 points in piercing ice and 2 in netherwind presence outweigh a second point in fire blast. Once we hit 85, it will change as you will be able to go 3/3 in netherwind and 2/2 in fire blast.

Fire blast however is a straight DPS loss even on a crit, as is spamming scorch to trigger a pyro. Currently (according to best testing) the highest DPS rotation for fire is Scorch, LB, FB spam till pyro, then combustion with LB, Ignite and Pyro active on the target. Impact Fireblast when it's up during a multiple target fight but useless on single target.


maybe its true...: crit to haste..the only way how to know is try it :)

From my testing, Haste to Crit once you're above 45% is a dps loss. Ideally (at least what i've found) is Crit above 45%, haste as high as you can get it from there, and no mastery.

Why haste? The way haste works now is your DoT's tick more often but stay on the target the same amount of time (so living bomb doesn't wear off after 4 ticks, you can get it to 5 or 6 if your haste is high enough). The lines for the tick increases are around 29% and then 36% haste, so get as much as you can.

Tschus
10-20-2010, 11:41 AM
The living bomb DPS grows linearly with haste, so the tick numbers per cast isn't that much important. But it's better to cross the haste threshold to add another tick when you're close to it. Because you'll get a longer living bomb duration, nets you more time on casting other spells.

And from what I've read from the EJ thread, crit scales better after 45%.

Edit: Just read another thought on living bomb duration: shorter living bomb duration gives more explosion during a certain amount of fight. Well, I'm not so sure about which is better now. lol

Goros
10-20-2010, 02:37 PM
That's not the case anymore. haste doesn't effect duration, only the number of ticks. Living bomb will always last for the same period of time, unfortunately it's easy to cut off the last tick by refreshing it early, thus you need to let it drop off before recasting it.

As for crit, 45% is the minimum. I tested reforging haste into crit (taking me to 51%) and dropping my haste to 730-ish, and my dps dropped on the dummy in ironforge by a full 1.5k dps, and it wasn't RNG, i tested over 2 days with 4 attempts each and fraps'd them.

Mastery is sadly wonderful for multiple targets and trash, but utterly fail on single target (I have tested this and will have a video of all 3 reforging sets ready for the weekend).

Potvora
10-20-2010, 03:42 PM
thank you Goros.
And did you try arcane? its easy to get a very high dps with priority : haste, mastrery, crit..didnt try: mastery, haste, crit..
(cant try bcs wow is now unplayable)
for me its about +2k dps more than fire..didnt try in raid(cant try bcs wow is now unplayable)

Clestin
10-21-2010, 04:15 AM
hey :) any of u happen to be very nice and help me with what i need to reforged ? cause i cant see what i should reforge and not.. and is my spec ok or do i need to change it? http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&cn=Clestin

/Clestin

Goros
10-21-2010, 04:49 AM
hey :) any of u happen to be very nice and help me with what i need to reforged ? cause i cant see what i should reforge and not.. and is my spec ok or do i need to change it? http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Silvermoon&cn=Clestin

/Clestin

Make a thread in the "halp" forum. Or just read the previous 6-8 posts because that's all we're talking about here. This is not a thread to discuss armory of individual characters.

Goros
10-21-2010, 04:52 AM
thank you Goros.
And did you try arcane? its easy to get a very high dps with priority : haste, mastrery, crit..didnt try: mastery, haste, crit..
(cant try bcs wow is now unplayable)
for me its about +2k dps more than fire..didnt try in raid(cant try bcs wow is now unplayable)

I haven't touched arcane no.

My question to you is when it was 2k dps more for you, did you go from full mana to OOM in cycle, or just until you hit a peak? My impression so far of arcane is that without cycling through regen cycles your DPS drops drastically and you can't allow yourself to drop below 40% mana...in my experience impossible unless your fights are short, and that includes using an evocation.

All my numbers are based off of overall dps from full to OOM, as that's the only real way to judge total dps output in a raid when hitting a dummy.

Tschus
10-21-2010, 05:52 AM
At 37.5% of haste, which is exactly when you get a sixth tick of living bomb, the interval between living bomb ticks is 2.1818 secs and it has 6 ticks. The total duration is 13.09 secs.
At 37.4% of haste, the interval between living bomb ticks is 2.1834 secs but it has only 5 ticks. The total duration is 10.92 secs.

If you use recount to monitor the dps, I think it's better to use the dps number at exactly when you go oom. The dot ticks after that will lower the number.

Goros
10-21-2010, 10:20 AM
If you use recount to monitor the dps, I think it's better to use the dps number at exactly when you go oom. The dot ticks after that will lower the number.

Yep, that's the number i was using.

As for the haste thing, are you 100% sure of that? I was under the impression duration was identical after 4.0.1 hit regardless of haste, it just gave you extra ticks depending on your haste %.

Potvora
10-21-2010, 02:54 PM
my test with fire: casting until i get oom without using evocation, but i use gems and arcane torrent. with arcane too.
i use gems bcs its a buff for arcane so i use them with fire to make no differences. i dont use evocation because its a big plus for arcane.i dont know a fight that can last longer than you get oom with arcane. if you have a good rotation and timing it can last very long

Goros
10-21-2010, 07:34 PM
Potvora, what kind of numbers are you putting down on a Dummy and on Saurfang in 10M with arcane?

Sky
10-21-2010, 09:14 PM
I like how the thread is being kept active about mages in Catac discussion! Keep it up! :)

Potvora
10-22-2010, 05:59 AM
not sure what do you mean but. i look on the dmg done afrer combat. and im looking on recount all over the time im testing. i wasnt Saurfang 10N yet bcs 25 and 10 have common save. And in 25 im always freezed now so I cant try it..same on Horsman
But it is not easy to try different techniques in ICC bcs you cant go to ORG and reforge while you are in raid and every boss has different resistances..this can last weeks. arcane(crit, mastery, haste or haste, mastery, crit) fire(haste, mastery, crit or crit, mastery,haste) 4 weeks of testing....
But what im interested in is how it can be(fire) with crit,mastery,haste..because when i full reforge to crit i have about 47% crit chance with molten armor and intel buff. in 25 man raid full buffed it can be + 10%(not sure) of crit. then you can feel the difference..but i cant..:(

Goros
10-23-2010, 07:44 AM
No, from my testing (putting me over 52% crit base) it's a straight up DPS loss, and a big one.

IMO for fire you need crit to 45%, then haste for the rest. Anything giving 5sp or less socket bonus go 20 int gem, screw the bonus (the gem is better). For the rest, int/haste and int/hit gems when you want the larger socket bonus.

Theadan
11-03-2010, 06:19 AM
what about the mastery?
Is usefull reforge item to have mastery? And wich stat i have to reforge? (sorry for my terrible english)
i mean between critical, hit and haste wich one i have to sacrifice?
thanks for any reply

Theotherone
11-03-2010, 07:05 AM
I reforged my Spirit to Mastery, and, where I could, to Haste. Interesting thing about Mastery, my dps varies widely depending on Hot Streak procs, but my Damage Done is consistently top on the meters (while our Arcane mage was topping DPS, his damage done was near the bottom), the DoTs are just beating the hell out of the bosses. While numbers are not my strong suit, I think the Mastery has a lot to do with it. I tend to prefer topping Damage Done over topping DPS.

Goros
11-03-2010, 12:22 PM
Damage done is the most important number. Ideally, you should be at the top of both DPS and Damage Done provided you know what you are doing and are doing it right.

When someone has more DPS and less Damage Done, it means they have inactive time - time when they aren't casting anything...which is the first rule of DPS - Always Be Casting (ABC).

I pulled 23k on Sarth last night to do 35% of overall Damage Done. The next closest was a hunter at 9.7k and 13% damage done.

Since they nerfed fire, I went back to arcane with the exception of a few select fights with adds.

On to my findings with fire:

The best single target DPS with fire was reforging to 16.5% hit or more, a minimum of 45% crit (with molten armor), and as much haste as you can stack after that. For aoe's, mastery took a clear lead over haste, and stacking crit was a straight DPS loss vs all of the above.

So, my priority list for reforging would be Hit>Crit (to 45%)>Haste>Mastery>Crit

Theotherone
11-08-2010, 06:46 AM
I took your advice, reversed my reforging, put my crit back up to about 35% (with Molten Armor), put a little spirit to mastery or haste depending the item - puts my haste at 964; went back in on the LK last night and on the first phase (effectively a target dummy) was at around 17k dps, but was told to back off cause I kept aggroing everything with Living Bomb. Took Living Bomb out of the rotation for phase 1, and my dps dropped like a stone.

Your right about watching the LB ticks and not clipping it; you really need to be mindful to not put it up early.

Goros
11-09-2010, 05:32 AM
I started using magenuggets and combustionhelper to keep track.

I ended up giving up on mastery completely for fire, i went straight haste once i hit the 45% crit number with molten armor (because of the t3/t4 hotstreak ROI for crit). When we hit 85 mastery should be the best stat for fire hands down because we'll see our dots (including ffb) ticking for 200%+ damage.

Right now, it's basically useless except on adds.

In my testing with multiple targets in fire with mastery on the SW dummies (where combustion and LB spread to 2 other dummies because they are close together) I was pulling a sustained 13.5k on the dummies alone. In Ironforge with the single dummy it was around 9.5k, but when i dumped mastery and put it in haste it went to around 10.5k.

In arcane I can pull and maintain 11.5k on dummies self buffed, indefinitely, with spikes during cd's of over 20k dps....in ICC10 I'm averaging around 15k on single target fights in arcane, and similar in fire, but have some mastery reforges going on in arcane where I sacrificed some crit. It is weird being arcane and not running OOM, ever.

This week I'm testing arcane without extra mastery at all, just haste & crit for everything.

Theotherone
11-09-2010, 06:31 AM
I started using magenuggets and combustionhelper to keep track.

I ended up giving up on mastery completely for fire, i went straight haste once i hit the 45% crit number with molten armor (because of the t3/t4 hotstreak ROI for crit). When we hit 85 mastery should be the best stat for fire hands down because we'll see our dots (including ffb) ticking for 200%+ damage.

Right now, it's basically useless except on adds.

In my testing with multiple targets in fire with mastery on the SW dummies (where combustion and LB spread to 2 other dummies because they are close together) I was pulling a sustained 13.5k on the dummies alone. In Ironforge with the single dummy it was around 9.5k, but when i dumped mastery and put it in haste it went to around 10.5k.

In arcane I can pull and maintain 11.5k on dummies self buffed, indefinitely, with spikes during cd's of over 20k dps....in ICC10 I'm averaging around 15k on single target fights in arcane, and similar in fire, but have some mastery reforges going on in arcane where I sacrificed some crit. It is weird being arcane and not running OOM, ever.

This week I'm testing arcane without extra mastery at all, just haste & crit for everything.

I'm going close to OOM in fire; I really want Clearcasting back, but pulling points from the Frost increased crit chance talent doesn't thrill me; but then again no mana = no casting = no dps . I end up going over to Mage Armor to mana regen during lulls in a fight. I beginning to think that for Fire spirit may not be a complete waste.

Goros
11-09-2010, 01:35 PM
I think we'll see more healer synergies with Cata, where our healers will be tossing us enervates and power infusions as part of the rotation as opposed to having to beg for them.

At least I hope so.

Goros
11-11-2010, 12:40 PM
Just as a note to anyone that has access to it...

I swapped my Muradin's Spyglass (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50345) for my Reign of the Unliving (http://www.wowhead.com/item=47182) and noticed a significant increase in DPS in Arcane, both during burn phases and overall damage done. And yes, my spyglass was reforged for haste.

I am unsure this swap would be beneficial to Fire (for a number of reasons), but haven't tested it in ICC or on a dummy yet. Does anyone have any concrete trial & error from it yet?

Tschus
11-11-2010, 11:02 PM
I took your advice, reversed my reforging, put my crit back up to about 35% (with Molten Armor), put a little spirit to mastery or haste depending the item - puts my haste at 964; went back in on the LK last night and on the first phase (effectively a target dummy) was at around 17k dps, but was told to back off cause I kept aggroing everything with Living Bomb. Took Living Bomb out of the rotation for phase 1, and my dps dropped like a stone.

Your right about watching the LB ticks and not clipping it; you really need to be mindful to not put it up early.

What's the strategy you're using in phase 1? If the OT picks up the adds and tank them separately from LK, I dont think the living bomb would be a problem due to the hugely reduced explosion damage and the restriction of 3 targets.
If it's really a problem, try clipping off every explosion instead? With the current DoT system, you will be only clipping off the explosion but not the last tick if you refresh it during the second last tick and the last tick. That gives you a 100% uptime on living bomb. Compare with the extra explosion damage which is weaker than the DoT ticks, I would say it might not be a dps loss.
(I'm not sure, not tested it myself, and haven't done any researches or reading on this though.)

Any of you tried another way of reforging - get a healthy amount of haste (1000~1200 I guess) and then put crit as high as possible? My gears are too sucks for testing reforging so can't tell how it goes. And from any resources I've read, mastery isn't worth it for fire currently.

Goros
11-12-2010, 05:22 AM
Mastery is only good for trash, which basically makes it bad for bosses (in fire).

Your haste cap is different for everyone, depending on your latency. I have around a 50 latency, so I run around 1100 or so. I reforged my haste to 34%, which reduced my crit to around 34%, and my DPS went down significantly on the target dummy.

The magic number for fire seems to be crit around 45%, so a base of like 41-42, plus molten armor. There's a chart earlier in this post detailing the t3/t4 hotstreak return on investment for crit.

My dps went down when i reforged over 45% crit. It's tricky to get right.

Tschus
11-12-2010, 07:42 AM
I guess it's because you're sacrificing too much haste for the crit, not because crit isn't good after 45%. If I understand the chart right it says that crit is becoming better and better after 45%.
Umm, what haste cap are you referring to?

Goros
11-12-2010, 11:46 AM
where your latency to the server alters the speed of how much haste will benefit you. People at 150 latency cap around 1k, people at 400 cap around 900. Their ping doesn't allow them to take full advantage of the haste their character might have, no matter how hard or fast you pound the keyboard. It's different for everyone, and can vary from day to day, but I get no benefit over 1100 at around 50 latency. I also have black magic and use double speed pots, as well heroism. With any of the 3 proccing, I hit GCD cap and can't benefit for more (if i stack speed pot and heroism I don't get any faster).

I was still pulling in around 850 haste when i reforged to over 50% crit, and it was a HUGE dps loss. Remember that haste effects how many ticks you get on your DOTs before they wear off, so there is more of a balance between the 2 as opposed to a clear cut haste>crit or crit>haste relationship.

I'd say crit to 45%, then haste to 1100, then crit up from there...for me at least. mastery was a complete and utter waste except on multiple mobs, better of just not reforging an item than to put anything into mastery.

I tested 2k worth of gold reforging and recording boss dummy videos in IF and SW, and with my gear that was the best I could get (average Item Level of 271).

Theadan
11-18-2010, 12:24 AM
HI, would like to know if 45% critc is unbuffed or with buff?
thanks for reply

Goros
11-18-2010, 04:52 AM
45% is with molten armor.

shady1989
08-16-2012, 09:51 PM
Thanks for this awesome guide ! i'd ask for a big favor ill post my gear and stats and proff's could you advise me in geming and enchants ? because I'm very disapointed with my dps in icc :(

shady1989
08-17-2012, 06:26 AM
Head : Sanctified Bloodmage Hood item lvl : 264
Neck: Amulet of the Silent Eulogy
Shoulders: Sanctified Bloodmage Shoulderpads item lvl: 264
Back: Volder's Cloak of the Night Sky item lvl : 264
Chest: Sanctified Bloodmage Robe item lvl: 264
Wrist: The Lady's Brittle Bracers item lvl: 264
Hand's : Sanctified Bloodmage Gloves item lvl: 264
Waist: Belt of Omission item lvl: 264
Leg's: Leggings of Woven Death item lvl: 264
Feet : Plague Scientist's Boots item lvl: 264
Ring1 : Ashen Band of Endless Destruction item lvl: 264
Ring2 : Loop of the Endless Labyrinth item lvl: 264
Trinket1 : Reign on the Unliving item lvl: 245
Trinket2: Muradin's Spyglass item lvl: 251
Main Hand : Frozen Bonespke item lvl: 264
Off Hand : Symbol of Transgression
Wand : Corpse-Impaling Spike

Prof's : Engineering and Jewelcrafting!
Human mage by the way
Anyone some advice on geming and enchanting these item's?

sifuedition
08-17-2012, 08:30 AM
Holy necro batman. This thread was 3 years old.

Recommendations...

Get to 85 and gear up.

shady1989
08-17-2012, 09:11 AM
the server where i play is only at LK
That's the only reason im asking :(
Anyone some advice?

Sky
08-21-2012, 05:48 AM
Enchants are listed in the guide.

I'm assuming you're playing on a server that's up to date with WotLK, so gems are generally as many reds as you can get while having the metagem active.

Honestly, your stuff isn't bad at all, I would focus on how you're using your CD's, spells, and your efficiency in movement. Analyze and learn after each boss fight. That will result in a bigger DPS increase.

Martie
08-21-2012, 06:10 AM
Anyone some advice?
Stop being a freeloader and start paying for the game.

shady1989
08-24-2012, 04:25 AM
Sky thanks for youre reply i finished my new geming and i have 3053 spellpower 49% fire crit chance and 693 haste self buffed i used 12 spellpower 10 haste in every red and yellow slot do you think i should youse 23 only in red sockets and 20 haste in yellow?

Sky
09-03-2012, 06:45 AM
Refer to this section-

"Haste- This increases increases the speed you cast. For TTW/Fire, a desirable level of haste is to have enough haste so that three fireball casts are affected by the 2T10 bonus. This requires about 650 haste assuming all raid buffs. Of course, the more haste, the better. Depending on gearset, haste still may be the most valuable stat. Another useful amount of haste to have is 1175, meaning that with Heroism, it will be possible to fit in four fireballs within the 2T10 Mage bonus.

Here are the useful milestones for haste, ignoring the effect of lag. These all assume full raid buffs.
650 Haste- Fitting in three Fireballs within the 2T10 bonus.
781 Haste- GCD is at 1 second with 2T10 bonus.
925 Haste- Fitting in four fireballs within the 2T10 bonus with Heroism and Black Magic active.
1175 Haste- Fitting in four fireballs within the 2T10 bonus with Heroism active."

Get the haste that you need, and then have as many red gems as possible. Yellow sockets should be filled with either int/haste (depending on socket bonus) or simply be straight up int. Red is always int.

I'm not gonna answer any further questions because your questions could have been answered by reading the guide.