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View Full Version : Warrior Why isn't my DPS higher with ArP in spreadsheet?



haqzore
07-01-2010, 07:42 PM
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Daggerspine&cn=Scrawny

So, if you check my current armory, you'll see im still stacking pure STR (with crit on gems to meet socket bonuses).

I put my gear thru the spreadsheet when i bought my 264 chest, and realized if i change all my +20 STR to +20 ArP, and all my 10 STR/15 STA to 10 ArP/15 STA i will be "soft capped" with my NES procs.

but, i lose about 60 dps on the spreadsheet doing this. i know theres been a debate with ArP and STR, ive read and searched and read again to avoid mine being the millionth post about it. but the overwhelming consensus seems to be "stay away from ArP until you can soft cap", which i now can.

is it just as simple as my gear still being to low to be viable with ArP gemming, even at the soft cap?

Toushiro
07-01-2010, 07:51 PM
well you don't need every socket bonus, but spreadsheets are bad judgments for DPS. with a trinket proc that gives you 100% ArP with the proc will boost DPS, I've noticed this with my DK after I had gotten NES.

haqzore
07-01-2010, 08:07 PM
... the landsoul spreadsheet is the single best judgment for warrior dps there is ...

haqzore
07-01-2010, 08:07 PM
also - im not getting every socket bonus... not trying to be a jerk but... ive yet to find a respectable warrior who would consider landsouls sheet "bad judgment"

Toushiro
07-01-2010, 08:16 PM
I'm not a warrior and never said I was, just that I don't like spreadsheets, they just kill the games enjoyment and make it pure math.

haqzore
07-01-2010, 08:29 PM
I'm not a warrior and never said I was, just that I don't like spreadsheets, they just kill the games enjoyment and make it pure math.
... thats not at all what you said... by any stretch... ???


...but spreadsheets are bad judgments for DPS.

my apologies.. no more discussion about this from me. sorry to get off topic.

Kazeyonoma
07-01-2010, 11:28 PM
The thing is that when softcapping you're essentially maximizing your potential for 20% uptime on a chance to proc item, and the other 80% of the time you're gonna be hitting weaker. That's probably why in the long run your overall dps is lower although minimally. Capping passive 100% ArP for sure is the best dps for warriors, softcapping has always been more iffy because of the uptime on trinkets.

Serendipitus
07-02-2010, 12:10 AM
You should start by looking at your gems. For example, your belt currently has 10str/15stam and 20str x 2 with a 6 str socket bonus. Thats a total of 56 extra str from gems. The stam doesnt up your dps at all. If you switch out the 10str/15stam with a 20str you will get more str and thus more dps. A few other pieces have this problem as well. As for your question regarding ArmPen, i have no idea because I'm ret and stay away from ArmPen. :)

Bigbad
07-02-2010, 12:27 AM
I would worry more about your expertise and hit and less about your gems. You only need 164 hit and 26 expertise. Replace that second ring with agi/arp version or something better, get crafted boots if possible, another belt etc.

Destruyen
07-02-2010, 03:52 AM
The thing is that when softcapping you're essentially maximizing your potential for 20% uptime on a chance to proc item, and the other 80% of the time you're gonna be hitting weaker. That's probably why in the long run your overall dps is lower although minimally. Capping passive 100% ArP for sure is the best dps for warriors, softcapping has always been more iffy because of the uptime on trinkets.

pretty much this.

i found while i was still using runestone from ulduar 10 that, while my dps was awesome for 20% of a fight, i found that going to 60-70% arp was a dps increase even though on landsoul's it would show a loss. the extra arp helped my dps while the trinket wasn't procced (~80% of the time) and it wasn't too much of wasted itemization when it was procced.

you need to change quite a bit of your gear around as well. get the leather frost badge belt to lower your hit (it's better than the plate one anyways). get the agi frost badge cloak. change your ashen verdict ring to the agi version. get the toc crafted bracers. get the crafted icc boots.

Khilbron
07-03-2010, 03:18 AM
The other thing too is you aren't even at the ArP soft cap. NES proc's 678 ArP, you have 538 ArP, combined you have 1216, which is 184 ArP below the softcap.

Changes you should look at towards your gear.

Switch your meta gem to the Relentless Earthsiege (21agi 3%crit)
Remove all dreadstones
Acquire a Nightmare Tear
Buy the Leather Frost Belt(Vengeful Noose)
Buy the Scarlet Onslaught Cloak
Buy/Make the BS Boots (Hellfrozen Bonegrinders)
Exchange your Rep ring from Might to vengeance
Remove the +44AP enchant from your gloves, you are an engineer, put the hyperspeed accelerators on them.
You should be using either +23haste cloak enchant, or again you are an engineer, flexweave underlay(+23agi)
Also your boots, again you are an engineer (Nitro Boosts, +24 crit)

After you make these changes, regem however much you need to on your gear to get to 682 armorpen(shown on your tooltip), because 682 is the minimum needed to reach the softcap with Hearty Rhino food.

Also if you get a chance, drop mining for jewelcrafting.

haqzore
07-05-2010, 06:10 PM
The thing is that when softcapping you're essentially maximizing your potential for 20% uptime on a chance to proc item, and the other 80% of the time you're gonna be hitting weaker. That's probably why in the long run your overall dps is lower although minimally. Capping passive 100% ArP for sure is the best dps for warriors, softcapping has always been more iffy because of the uptime on trinkets. i hadn't thought about it this way. this makes perfect sense though. thanks.


You should start by looking at your gems. For example, your belt currently has 10str/15stam and 20str x 2 with a 6 str socket bonus. Thats a total of 56 extra str from gems. The stam doesnt up your dps at all. If you switch out the 10str/15stam with a 20str you will get more str and thus more dps. A few other pieces have this problem as well. As for your question regarding ArmPen, i have no idea because I'm ret and stay away from ArmPen. :) i'm not willing to, on my belt for example, trade 15 stamina to pickup 4 strength. i would rather have a lot more (15 stam worth) survivability than a tiny bit (4 str worth) of str. this is why i went the way i did.


I would worry more about your expertise and hit and less about your gems. You only need 164 hit and 26 expertise. Replace that second ring with agi/arp version or something better, get crafted boots if possible, another belt etc. wtf... last time i checked i was at 26 expertise. i had no idea it got this high... guess i forgot to check after my last upgrade. thanks.


pretty much this.

i found while i was still using runestone from ulduar 10 that, while my dps was awesome for 20% of a fight, i found that going to 60-70% arp was a dps increase even though on landsoul's it would show a loss. the extra arp helped my dps while the trinket wasn't procced (~80% of the time) and it wasn't too much of wasted itemization when it was procced.

you need to change quite a bit of your gear around as well. get the leather frost badge belt to lower your hit (it's better than the plate one anyways). get the agi frost badge cloak. change your ashen verdict ring to the agi version. get the toc crafted bracers. get the crafted icc boots.thanks for the info. i can't spend frosts on the leather belt or agi cloak though. ill be lucky if i get enough frosts by the time cata hits to get a 4 pc tier 10 bonus. i can def look at changing my ring to the agi one though, and see what that does in the spreadsheet.

as far as the crafted stuff goes, they arent really an option for me. i literally login about about 20 minutes per night (to queue as tank and run a heroic) and 3 hours once a week to raid icc. i simply dont have the resources for crafted items.

thanks again for the tips


The other thing too is you aren't even at the ArP soft cap. NES proc's 678 ArP, you have 538 ArP, combined you have 1216, which is 184 ArP below the softcap.

Changes you should look at towards your gear.

Switch your meta gem to the Relentless Earthsiege (21agi 3%crit)
Remove all dreadstones
Acquire a Nightmare Tear
Buy the Leather Frost Belt(Vengeful Noose)
Buy the Scarlet Onslaught Cloak
Buy/Make the BS Boots (Hellfrozen Bonegrinders)
Exchange your Rep ring from Might to vengeance
Remove the +44AP enchant from your gloves, you are an engineer, put the hyperspeed accelerators on them.
You should be using either +23haste cloak enchant, or again you are an engineer, flexweave underlay(+23agi)
Also your boots, again you are an engineer (Nitro Boosts, +24 crit)

After you make these changes, regem however much you need to on your gear to get to 682 armorpen(shown on your tooltip), because 682 is the minimum needed to reach the softcap with Hearty Rhino food.

Also if you get a chance, drop mining for jewelcrafting. if you read my post, i said id be capped when i switched all my str gems to arp. i know im not as i sit now. i'll check and see what changing my meta does for me. i don't have the resources to level JC (see above about time played).

i'll definitely look into the engi chants. these always freakin slip by me, not sure why. i totally forget them. thanks for the reminder.

as for changing frost gear, like i said above, i'm beyond the point of changing frost things i've already bought. to late in the game. if i have frosts to kill after i hit my 4pc t10, i'll look into those.



thanks again to everyone for your replies. i appreciate you taking the time to put this stuff in here for me.

Muffin Man
07-07-2010, 01:09 PM
... the landsoul spreadsheet is the single best judgment for warrior dps there is ...

Just a friendly reminder. The reason people don't like spreadsheets is that they are not the best judgement for warrior dps. A thorough understanding of your class is.

Also, in the past there are have been ample discussions about how bad spreadsheets have been with modelling arp. Not to mention that they are prone to human error. Of course they get updated, but still you should judge for yourself what works.

haqzore
07-07-2010, 07:55 PM
Just a friendly reminder. The reason people don't like spreadsheets is that they are not the best judgement for warrior dps. A thorough understanding of your class is.mine is just a question about the spreadsheet. if i didnt understand my class, i would surely be doing other things than asking for advice with a tool used to help min/max said class.


Also, in the past there are have been ample discussions about how bad spreadsheets have been with modelling arp.I was not aware of this, so i appreciate the small bit of info. But, there are also many, many more discussions agreeing with my statement that the landsoul spreadsheet is the best indicator warriors have. I much prefer tinkering with it before i drop resources on 15 new gems, etc...

Khilbron
07-09-2010, 04:25 AM
Just a friendly reminder. The reason people don't like spreadsheets is that they are not the best judgement for warrior dps. A thorough understanding of your class is.

Also, in the past there are have been ample discussions about how bad spreadsheets have been with modelling arp. Not to mention that they are prone to human error. Of course they get updated, but still you should judge for yourself what works.

A thorough understanding of your class is the key to performing your best, however landsoul's spreadsheet will show you exactly how your tweaking will affect your performance, unlike most of the spreadsheets that are thrown together and are semi-accurate, landsoul's is 99% accurate if you have a thorough understanding of your class.

haqzore
07-10-2010, 06:16 PM
A thorough understanding of your class is the key to performing your best, however landsoul's spreadsheet will show you exactly how your tweaking will affect your performance, unlike most of the spreadsheets that are thrown together and are semi-accurate, landsoul's is 99% accurate if you have a thorough understanding of your class.
jesus... finally... maybe people can stop harping on it now...

thank you

Loganisis
07-12-2010, 08:03 AM
Haq,

I wouldn't worry too much about survability. You've got plenty of Sta on gear. In fact, leather items are BiS in 3 places iirc, which is a signficant armor decrease from the plate versions. As DPS your job is to beat the holy bejesus out of ugglies. Let the tanks worry about survability (you'll still survive much longer than the paper-maches, I mean clothies).

Take the extra str.

haqzore
07-12-2010, 08:01 PM
Haq,

I wouldn't worry too much about survability. You've got plenty of Sta on gear. In fact, leather items are BiS in 3 places iirc, which is a signficant armor decrease from the plate versions. As DPS your job is to beat the holy bejesus out of ugglies. Let the tanks worry about survability (you'll still survive much longer than the paper-maches, I mean clothies).

Take the extra str.
cool. i just dont have the frosts to replace my existing frost gear. gonna get the frost gear for slots i dont have frost gear in yet. after that, it will probably be time for cata, but if not, ill look into the leather :P

Loganisis
07-13-2010, 08:44 AM
Actually, I was talking about end game BiS XD

However the leather belt is > plate belt for DPS. The agility Ashen Verdit ring is better than the Str ring. Many agility rings > str rings (ArP is usually why, as in the Agility has it the Str not as much).

But I think the belt is the only slot leather > plate for Frosties.