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Kahmal
06-17-2010, 10:33 AM
So if your guild is lacking a Warrior Tank such as mine, I weep with you. Regardless it's something we have to deal with. I'm just wondering if I'm doing it as efficient as possible. Keep in mind that atm I'm the only Warrior in the raid so weaving in sunders can take some time. So here is my rotation

0.0 Whirlwind
1.5 Bloodthirst
3.0 Free GCD (instant Slam if available/or Sunder if your guild is lame enough to run 2 pally tanks)
4.5 WAIT 1 second (Slam here, since I had to push it back for a sunder as long as I still have over .5 sec)
5.5 Bloodthirst
7.0 WAIT 1 second (Slam here, rarely ever sunder)
8.0 Whirlwind
9.5 Bloodthirst

I used to never use Slam following a sunder since I thought it would push my rotation back too much. But since it was verified that a slam is always a dmg increase as long as BT/WW as .5 seconds left on CD. I used to just throw a second sunder during this, but from experiance I've found that using 2 consecutive GCD's on an ability that does no damage and pushes my rotation back makes my DPS plummet. So basically I throw up one sunder per rotation. (I always open the fight with a sunder though)

There are times where I will use 2 sunders back to back, or even during the 7.0 period, such as when Lust is popped early, but I"m still not sure just how much DPS all 5 sunders net the raid as opposed to me losing potential 15k+ crits while pushing back my rotation.

Also I'm wonder if it would be more efficient for Rogues to use expose armor on LK's raging spirits then for me to throw up 5 sunders.

Destruyen
06-17-2010, 10:40 AM
i usually throw 5 sunders as my first globals however i don't really know the effect that has on my dps compared to weaving the sunders in on empty gcd's. however, the increased raid dps from getting 5 sunders up at the start will more than likely make up for the bit of dps lost those first 5 globals. plus it gives your tank some threat cushion before you go all out. once i have a 5 stack i wait until 10 seconds left and plan for refreshing it during my next rotation (bt -> ww -> slam if proc or sunder -> bt -> slam if proc or sunder -> sunder no matter what to refresh -> bt).

i'm pretty sure landsoul recommended only using sunder during the phase after your second bt where you have 1 empty global and a 1 second pause before the next bt -> ww combo unless you have a slam proc but i'm not 100% on that.

Kazeyonoma
06-17-2010, 10:47 AM
I sunder to 5 right away and then go into normal rotation using free gcd's to sunder refresh. I figure the 5 stack of sunders not only boosts my dps, but every physical dps high enough it warrants using my first 5 gcds for it over my standard rotation.

MellvarTank
06-17-2010, 11:06 AM
/agree. First 5 sunders, then into the rotation.

Nez
06-17-2010, 11:08 AM
/agree. First 5 sunders, then into the rotation.

Same here when fury, mostly just to get it outa the way. LOL
When I am arms, I charge, rend, 5 sunders and off to the races.

Loganisis
06-17-2010, 11:38 AM
The more physical damage your raid has the more beneficial 5 stacks right away will be. If it's just you, it's probably not a big deal. If it's you and a hunter and a DK or more, the sooner sunder is @5, the better. Plus it simplifies your rotation later on, makes it less complicated.

If you only get 1 sunder in (or less if you priortize slam over it) per rotation cycel you could take a minute or more to get 5 stacks. That's one minute of physical damage against more armor based damage reduction than necessary.

5 and refresh :-)

Kahmal
06-17-2010, 11:52 AM
Bah make sunder a 1 stack application like Curse of Elements lol.

What about mobs that need to be burned down quickly such as Heroic LK's raging spirits? Its not like there up the entire fight, is 5 sunders off jump still worth it? Or would it be better to weave em in a bit, or would it just be better for a Rogue combo up to 5 and expose?

Destruyen
06-17-2010, 12:21 PM
its going to go down to 3 stacks in cata.

for adds that need to be burned down quickly i usually just weave sunders in on empty globals and not stack 5 off the back like on a boss. but thats 3 sunders per rotation if you dont get any slam procs unlike the one per in your op.

MellvarTank
06-17-2010, 12:32 PM
such as Heroic LK's raging spirits? Its not like there up the entire fight, is 5 sunders off jump still worth it? Or would it be better to weave em in a bit, or would it just be better for a Rogue combo up to 5 and expose?

The verdict (and math on EJ) says you have a rogue expose armor because it is less of a dps loss than warriors (non-tank) doing it.

Kahmal
06-17-2010, 07:34 PM
The verdict (and math on EJ) says you have a rogue expose armor because it is less of a dps loss than warriors (non-tank) doing it.

lol u have a link to that?

Khilbron
06-17-2010, 09:59 PM
The verdict (and math on EJ) says you have a rogue expose armor because it is less of a dps loss than warriors (non-tank) doing it.
Yeah good luck getting a rogue to expose armor. Also as Kahmal said I would like to see the post that contains their math on this as well, since I know from first hand experience that once the initial sunders are up, there is no dps loss in weaving in sunders on open globals, since they are open globals, where as a rogue would need to burn their finisher to pop expose.

Mäcintosh
06-17-2010, 11:21 PM
Soooo, Kahmal, this missing warrior tank.....

Do you want one?
What days/times do you raid?
What server?
Time zone server is in?
Horde or Ally? (Cant see this in tapatalk on my iPhone)

If you're interested, fire me a PM, you can give me this info and we'll see if something can work out.

Khilbron
06-17-2010, 11:24 PM
mispost

Kahmal
06-17-2010, 11:46 PM
Yeah good luck getting a rogue to expose armor. Also as Kahmal said I would like to see the post that contains their math on this as well, since I know from first hand experience that once the initial sunders are up, there is no dps loss in weaving in sunders on open globals, since they are open globals, where as a rogue would need to burn their finisher to pop expose.

It can be argued, Rogues have a quicker GCD for one, they stack their combos up to 5, while doing damage and then put up a 25% armor reduction, should take up to 6 seconds.

Warriors can either use 5, 1.5 second globals at while doing only White damage and Heroic Strikes which will take 7.5 seconds. A Warrior can weave them in doing more damage, but would have to skip slams.

Khilbron
06-18-2010, 12:33 AM
It can be argued, Rogues have a quicker GCD for one, they stack their combos up to 5, while doing damage and then put up a 25% armor reduction, should take up to 6 seconds.

Warriors can either use 5, 1.5 second globals at while doing only White damage and Heroic Strikes which will take 7.5 seconds. A Warrior can weave them in doing more damage, but would have to skip slams.

You also need to calculate what the cost to put up and maintain expose would be to determine whether or not it is viable.

A rogue using expose has to sacrifice dps to maintain expose(yes it goes up sooner, but requires dps loss to maintain). Looking at our guilds last heroic festergut if our mut rogue were to maintain expose, he would sacrifice a max of 16.8k every 30 seconds over the course of a 4:22 fight, that would be 8 exposes at 5 points, or 11 exposes at 4cp, for 134.4k - 184.8k damage lost.

If I were to load up 5 sunders at the start, I would miss out on 2 BT's, 1 WW, and maybe 1 slam proc (2 if I'm lucky), so I would lose 16.5k per BT at a max, 12.8k per slam, and a max of 22.2k for my WW. Which is 68k total damage lost at max, and I have no damage loss to maintain the sunder.

Using those numbers for my situation, if we were to lose our prot warrior It would be less of a personal loss for me to apply and maintain the sunders. Calculating the overall raid dps gain vs the personal dps loss would, would be a completely different calculation per raid group, based on how many physical dps are in the raid. So in lieu of doing math on everyone's individual per fight log parse, its more cost efficient for a warrior(in my position) to apply and maintain sunders, than it would be for the rogue. Now of course these numbers will change based on the fight duration.

ex.
30 - Rogue loses at most 16.8k damage, Warrior loses 55.2k - 68k
60 - Rogue 33.6k, warrior 55.2k - 68k
90 - Rogue 50.4k, warrior 55.2k - 68k
120 - Rogue 67.2k warrior 55.2k - 68k
and remember these are examples only, we don't expect 30second T10 fights. Looking at these examples If the fight duration exceeds 90 seconds then it is better to have a fury warrior sunder than it is for a rogue to expose. If someone wants to do an arms warrior loss on the opening 5 globals, plus the required global to maintain it I'm sure people would like to see that as well.

These numbers will also change based on gear levels too. ie. If the fury warrior greatly outgears the rogue, then the duration of the fight where sunder > Expose will increase, and vise versa, if the rogue out gears the warrior, the duration of the fight where sunder > expose lessens.

These numbers were pulled from a fury warrior using H.Cryptmaker MH, and Glorenzelg OH, and a rogue with H.Rib Spreader MH, and Lungbreaker OH.

Macbrother
06-18-2010, 12:58 AM
So really Khilbron you just served to prove MellvarTank's point, not counter it, given he was referring specifically to the raging spirits of the Lich King encounter.

Khilbron
06-18-2010, 01:13 AM
So really Khilbron you just served to prove MellvarTank's point, not counter it, given he was referring specifically to the raging spirits of the Lich King encounter.

I wasn't trying to counter his point, I was just laying out the numbers in general.

Kahmal
06-18-2010, 11:33 AM
I wasn't trying to counter his point, I was just laying out the numbers in general.

Well my point was regarding the Raging Spirits, if I make a rogue Expose on Festergut I'm a piece of shit lol.

Erkebrand
06-18-2010, 11:37 AM
Taken from Landsouls compendium at EJ:

If you are required to maintain a Sunder stack on the target, then it is best to get 5 stacks up as fast as possible without sacrificing your BT and WW damage. Use it in the places where you would normally use a Slam, except in all possible positions. That is, after the WW, and twice after the 2nd BT for a 9.0s rotational basis. It is best to blow your Death Wish as your first GCD however, since you won't have time to activate it while you are sundering, and also because your trinkets will probably proc while you are sundering. If you don't activate Death Wish right away, then your trinket buffs might expire before you can finish sundering and start slamming, and you will partly miss out on a great buff stack.

Maintain Sunder Armor by re-applying it after the 2nd BT in the absense of a Bloodsurge proc if it has less than 10s left. You must know ahead of time which space you will do this in, so that old procs do not expire before the Sunder GCD is finished. Use an expiring proc in the 1.0s space between WW and the 2nd BT. If you happen to have a newer Bloodsurge proc, or get a new one before the intercept time while still locked out of your GCD from Sunder, you must use it before the 1st BT of the next period or else it will have expired after the WW.

The worst thing that can happen is the Sunder stack falls off, in which you would need to reapply them again, losing a great deal of DPS. Therefore it is very important to reapply them effectively in the correct position, not only so that it does not fall off, but also so you can minimize your losses from overlapped and/or expired Bloodsurge procs, and delays of BT/WW.


This seems to be from a personal DPS point of view. As mentioned above the best way to apply sunders from a raidwide dps perspective would have to depend on the numbers of physical dps in the raid. I guess a large group of physical dps would put more weight towards stacking 5 sunders back to back during the first 5 GCD.

Kahmal
06-18-2010, 12:12 PM
Landsoul could just be refering to ones personal DPS however and not considering the raid. After all even a Protection Warrior doesn't always use his first 5 GCD's on Sundering depending on RNG of SnB.

When he refers to Sundering whenever you would slam does that mean he'd want us to WW>BT>Sunder>Sunder? Cause that 2nd Sunder would clip your BT, which sounds bad since unlike clipping BT with a Slam, your not generating direct damage with that sunder.

This garbage is annoying, all Tanks should be able to sunder lol.

Erkebrand
06-18-2010, 12:34 PM
When he refers to Sundering whenever you would slam does that mean he'd want us to WW>BT>Sunder>Sunder? Cause that 2nd Sunder would clip your BT, which sounds bad since unlike clipping BT with a Slam, your not generating direct damage with that sunder

Edit : Deleted last post since i got all his rotations wrong..brb :-)

Ahh, think i understood what he means. So a start rotation with sunder armor should be like this

0.0: BT
1.5: WW
3.0: Sunder Armor
4.5: BT
6.0: Sunder Armor
7.5: Sunder Armor
9.0: BT(start of next rotation).

However this way you will be pushing WW and BT a bit.

Erkebrand
06-18-2010, 01:02 PM
And ideally for optimal sync of procs and DW the optimal start rotation with sunder armor should be:

0.0: Deathwish
1.5: BT
3.0: WW
4.5: Sunder Armor(1)
6.0: BT
7.5: Sunder Armor(2)
9.0: Sunder Armor(3)
10.5: BT
12.0: WW
13.5: Sunder Armor(4)
15:0: BT
16.5: Sunder Armor(5)
18.0: Wait
19.0: BT (start of normal rotation - only refreshing sunder armor when less than 10 second remaining and whenever there is a free GCD(no slam proc))

MellvarTank
06-18-2010, 02:17 PM
Sorry guys, took me a while to find it. It was in the ICC raid forum.

http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t56227-major_armor_debuff/ (http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t56227-major_armor_debuff/)

and here is the discussion:

http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?67002-LK-25-worth-Sundering-Raging-Spirits