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Loganisis
06-16-2010, 08:18 AM
I didn't want to hijack http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?67988-Tanking-BiS-3.3.3 to ask this question. It's the first thread that I've seen that really teases out rings, and the first notion that the Rep Ring isn't one of the 2 BiS. So without further ado...

I'm looking at two sets of rings, one is a more standard, all cases set, and one is a magic-damage-slanted set (LDW/Sid/LK). If I'm reading the discussion correctly, the picklist goes something like this?

EH
Devium's Eternally Cold Ring [264/277] http://www.wowhead.com/item=50185 (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50185) is always #1, so for the 2nd ring:
If pure EH = Band of the Twin Val'kyr [245] http://www.wowhead.com/item=48027 closely followed by Signified Ring of Binding [245] http://www.wowhead.com/item=49489
If Hit Need = Ashen Band of Endless Courage [277] http://www.wowhead.com/item=50404


Magic-intensive
Devium's Eternally Cold Ring [277] http://www.wowhead.com/item=50622 (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50622) and
Juggernaut Band [277] http://www.wowhead.com/item=50642 (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50642)

or if no access to Heroic

Any two of
* Ashen Band of Endless Courage [277] http://www.wowhead.com/item=50404
* Juggernaut Band [264] http://www.wowhead.com/item=49985 (http://www.wowhead.com/item=49985)
* Devium's Eternally Cold Ring [264] http://www.wowhead.com/item=50185 (http://www.wowhead.com/item=50185)

Is this the case? Is it the same across all tanking classes?

gacktt
06-16-2010, 09:03 AM
Ring of binding is better than twin valkyr because it gives 30 resistance to everything and has nearly equal EH to begin with. Juggernauts band is a terrible ring in every aspect of wotlk's raiding scene.

Loganisis
06-16-2010, 10:25 AM
Twin Valkyer has 30 stamina, Binding has 30 resistence - I could see these two maybe being swappable based on the fight? If you have a lot of ticking magic/area damage or moderate magic it would seem Binding would be better, but for fights like Rot, Fester, Saurfang, the physical prince - wouldn't Twin be better?

Why is Juggernaught so poor? Would you still run Twin/Binding over it? Or Devium's 264 or the Rep over it? And why?

gacktt
06-16-2010, 10:27 AM
Twin Valkyer has 30 stamina, Binding has 30 resistence - I could see these two maybe being swappable based on the fight? If you have a lot of ticking magic/area damage or moderate magic it would seem Binding would be better, but for fights like Rot, Fester, Saurfang, the physical prince - wouldn't Twin be better?

Why is Juggernaught so poor? Would you still run Twin/Binding over it? Or Devium's 264 or the Rep over it? And why?

It's weaker than devium/binding/valkyr in terms of EH.
If you want hit, then use the rep ring.
If you want avoidance... well, if you REALLY wanted 55 parry rating instead of 800armor/30resistance then I guess you can use it.

Loganisis
06-16-2010, 10:40 AM
I wasn't suggesting using it in pure EH fights where both Stamina and Armor was a factor. In fights with very large magic damage it does seem to be of more value than most other rings.

However given the fact that even in magic-focused fight there is physical damage, I can see where the 11 stamina it gives may not really be worth all that much.

So at the top end of rings, you're really looking at Devium + whichever you want between Binding/Valkyr in every ICC fight?

Aggathon
06-16-2010, 10:55 AM
I am still a firm believer that Twin Valks is better than the ony25 ring because of the stairstep nature of restistance, until you hit the 10% mark anything below that is still based on chance and isn't a guaranteed minimum, even then, I'm fairly certain Twin Valks is still more EHP although there is a decent argument that the ony ring is "better" EH since armor also increases effective healing per second. Honestly they're on the same plane and using one instead of the other isn't going to hurt you. We're talking about MINOR MINOR mathematical differences.

Loganisis
06-16-2010, 11:12 AM
I am still a firm believer that Twin Valks is better than the ony25 ring because of the stairstep nature of restistance, until you hit the 10% mark anything below that is still based on chance and isn't a guaranteed minimum, even then, I'm fairly certain Twin Valks is still more EHP although there is a decent argument that the ony ring is "better" EH since armor also increases effective healing per second. Honestly they're on the same plane and using one instead of the other isn't going to hurt you. We're talking about MINOR MINOR mathematical differences.

So by end game go with the Devium + 1 other +armor ring for all situations? Even in the 'classic' magic-laden fights like LDW/Sid/LK? And would GotW coupled with Ony meet that 10% threshold (sorry, I don't fully understand resistences other than I'm usually 'fair' in raid)

Aggathon
06-16-2010, 12:16 PM
So by end game go with the Devium + 1 other +armor ring for all situations? Even in the 'classic' magic-laden fights like LDW/Sid/LK? And would GotW coupled with Ony meet that 10% threshold (sorry, I don't fully understand resistences other than I'm usually 'fair' in raid)

http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/

TL;DR the first level is 10% at 128 resistance, so Aura (80) + ring (30) = 110, close, but no cigar. Now lets say you have at least 28 resistance somewhere else too (or just like a flask or cloak enchant or something) and the 30 resistance pushes you over the step to the next tier of guaranteed minimum resistance, then yes absolutely the ony25 ring would be better in that circumstance provide that there is enough magical damage in the fight to tilt the TEH calculation in its favor (which it very well might since it's such a small difference anyways)

Theotherone
06-16-2010, 12:26 PM
Well you all have me convinced, I'm done for as a tank - I must confess I obtained the Juggernaut Band from our 25 man ICC run last week and wear it along with the Ashen Band of Endless Courage; I also made the Pillars of Might for my Pally tank, not my DK since it has Leggings of Lost Hope - woe is me; time to hang up Shadow's Edge :( http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&cn=Theotherone

Insahnity
06-16-2010, 01:18 PM
I am still a firm believer that Twin Valks is better than the ony25 ring because of the stairstep nature of restistance, until you hit the 10% mark anything below that is still based on chance .

Referring to Elitist Jerks (http://elitistjerks.com/f15/t44675-resistance_mechanics_wotlk/) post on resistances. At 130 resistance with a totem or aura, you are already GUARANTEED 10% resistance (and really, averaging 20% reduction). If you can't arrange a simple aura or totem, then there is something seriously wrong. I am not sure where you are getting hung up on chance, the spread is VERY narrow (25% chance -10 from average, 50% chance of getting the average, and 25% to do BETTER than average). Considering you are willing to run with almost no expertise or hit and still manage threat, a 25% chance to get 10% less benefit should not be a point of contention

Please note, auras give 130 resistances, and MotW gives 75 (non-stacking with each other, buffwise). That's why the chart has 75 and 130 as the first 2 data points.

When looking at EH, I value armor or resistances over stamina, unless the gains are severely lopsided. it's better to not take the damage than to depend on a healer to heal you. (Please don't bring in overheals, it does not mean your healer is over geared or taking it easy, it just means s/he is being less efficient in his timing or is limited in tool selection when keeping you alive. That's hopefully gonna change in Cata for healers).

If we limit the discussion to Frost Damage (Sindrigosa), Titanium Frostguard is still good on the EH charts, despite being an ilvl 200 item. 100 stamina + Gem Socket + 68 frost resist is a lot of EH. It has no wasted itemization on piddly things like strength or avoidance.

Binding's is a severely undervalued ring. It has ~250 more armor than Twin Valks, and when combined with an aura (130 resist), Flask of Lesser resistance (50), the 30 resistance get boosted to 210 (and you can move up from there, LW patches (70), cloak enchants (15), Titanium Frostguard (68)).
At 210, you are averaging 30% resist (bouncing between 20-40, with 50% of them being 30%).
At 293 (+Cloak+frostguard), you are averaging about 36% resists. You can see on the chart at EJ that the 340 and 352 resist does have benefits even though you have non-step improvements.
At 363 (+cloak+wrist+frostguard), you are averaging about 40%, guaranteed 30%. This comes at a cost of 102 stamina, 225 armor, and whatever stamina and possible net armor losses on the ring(s). Plug that in to the damage distribution Sindy does and you get your answer as to the worth of this setup.

gacktt
06-16-2010, 03:42 PM
Well you all have me convinced, I'm done for as a tank - I must confess I obtained the Juggernaut Band from our 25 man ICC run last week and wear it along with the Ashen Band of Endless Courage; I also made the Pillars of Might for my Pally tank, not my DK since it has Leggings of Lost Hope - woe is me; time to hang up Shadow's Edge :( http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alexstrasza&cn=Theotherone

You can tank 11/12 hardmodes in tier 9 at this point. Anything more is just gravy.

Ion
06-16-2010, 05:10 PM
It's not really step-wise...each point of resistance still reduces the chance of the "worst case" resist. Just because that extra 30 resistance won't get you to 219, the fact that it DOES get you to 210 (with the aura/totem and resist flask) eliminates a bit more than 3% of the chance that you get a 10% resist (cutting it down to under 1%). If you lob on a cloak enchant then you've got your complete elimination of the (now minuscule) chance (and added in a minuscule chance for a 50% resist).

It's never "wasted".

Theotherone
06-17-2010, 06:22 AM
You can tank 11/12 hardmodes in tier 9 at this point. Anything more is just gravy.

Yeah, I was being sarcastic. We're 11/12 LK 10 right now and hopefully, we down him this week to move on to hard modes. We took a few shots last night, but people were tried and kind of zoning out.