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View Full Version : Tanking Warrior Tank, having aggro issues/one shot issues



Flamehoof
06-12-2010, 11:26 AM
I like to tank, and have always thought I did it fairly well. I have pretty good gear, am hit and def capped through gear alone, and am gradually getting more expertise. I know my rotation pretty well: Devestate+Heroic Strike spammage, Shield Slam when it's up, Revenge when its up, maintain TC and Demo Shout debuffs, shield bash when there's nothing else to do. And yet, I have a weird issue with aggro, especially initial aggro. I have more trouble with bosses like Saurfang, or the ToGC bosses that spawn directly into combat, not allowing me to charge, but I have trouble sometimes on other bosses in ICC as well. 1 example that made me look particularly bad was last week doing heroic Saurfang 10. I was sitting there spamming my taunt waiting for him to enter combat, I gain aggro, but while I'm waiting for my next global the ele shaman behind me picks up full aggro and gets smashed in the face. We wipe on second beasts because there's no longer enough ranged to kill them. Now, I have succesfully tanked this boss, yea even this whole raid, without any issue like that. However I'm gaining a reputation on my server as a bad tank for this aggro issue. I was wondering if anyone might be able to help me figure that out. My armory link is below (Just got a name change, otherwise it'd be the same as my forum name.)

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Illidan&cn=Gamelon

P.S. A related issue, I have this weird problem sometimes, especially on Princes but also on Fester and, ffs 3D zerg Sartharion, where I'll be at full HP (which in ICC is around 60k since the 20% buff), I'll pull say Val and Tal and be face down in 5 seconds or less. Is it bad healers or what? HALP!

P.P.S. TL;DR I have aggro issues and die a lot, wtf is wrong with me?

Passive
06-12-2010, 11:37 AM
On saurfang I usually go berserker stance and use reckless ness about 7s before engage (boss mods have engage timers) and use bloodrage/shield block so i have enough rage to do a big shield slam crit to open with and because I blocked, revenge will light up and crit.

Other things could be that you dont heroic strike enough. Are you clicking? Are you keyboard turning? Hows your latency? Do you run with any rogues or hunters?

With regards to dying. Do you know the encounters well? Do you know when to use your defensive cooldowns appropriately? Are you getting external cooldowns from the healers? Are your healers doing something wrong?

Flamehoof
06-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Recklessness is an interesting suggestion. What about the extra damage taken though?

I have all my moves bound to my keyboard and I mouse turn exclusively. I don't even have turn keys on my keyboard anymore. I have HS on my B button and Dev on my V button, the B key is the only one on my keyboard (I have a 1 year old gaming laptop) that is starting to fade. Latency is normally under 200 MS, although I can't always control wether or not my family members decide to stream or DL something on the family PC. Last 2-3 weeks we've run we had a hunter once and a rogue once. We don't have a steady lineup and have to pug a lot, so we can't always get one. I should mention that rarely if ever have I lost aggro later than 30 seconds into a fight.

I know the encounters better than my penis, and that's saying something. I've been farming ICC since day 1, not always successfully but usually at least decent progression. On Princes I always pop Shield Wall at pull because I know I'm gonna get wrecked and healers aren't always reliable to begin casting big heals until after pull.

Dreadski
06-12-2010, 11:59 AM
You kinda sound mixed up on rotation, it's a priority system: Shield Slam if it's up > Revenge (or Shockwave) > Devastate. Heroic strike should always be queued unless you don't have the rage for it. You also need to be hitting the button before the cooldown is up to ensure you get the most out of each GCD and can beat the server lag. Also, have the Pillars of Might crafted, the T10 legs are the worst in the game no matter which version you get (including heroic 277).

Harmacy
06-12-2010, 11:59 AM
Your ele sham attacked before you could even get two globals off? He's a bad then. Common sense: wait at least 2-3 seconds for the tank to generate at least a little aggro. Opening up the exact moment combat starts is a great way to pull aggro and go squish. Not your fault.

Still, opening up with Taunt is not the greatest idea. Normally I open up with Heroic Throw followed by SS, but I didn't think of stance-dancing and popping Recklessness right before combat started... that's a good idea! I'm gonna have to do that from now on, if my survival is not in jeopardy that is.

If you're losing sustained aggro, well that's another problem altogether, but you don't mention that.

I see little reason for you to go squish like that. I would give credit to RNG and sleeping healers, unless you did something dumb like turn your back to a boss (or tank with a fishing pole equipped).

Some problems in armory:

- You have no points in Imp TClap. That 10% slow is crucial to reduce incoming melee damage, get it ASAP. Take the points from either Shield Spec or Focused Rage (I'd recommend going 2/5 Shield Spec, because threat seems to be an issue for you so the extra rage conservation will help get out more HS's).

- Under expertise cap. Get Cataslysmic Chestguard when you get the 95 emblems, it's a huge upgrade for you. Not only will it softcap you on expertise but it will also trade avoidance for armor, which is a wonderful deal. All you really lose is some dodge/parry (who cares) and the little green "heroic" label under the name. In the meantime, try eating expertise food rather than fish, to help with aggro a bit.

Flamehoof
06-12-2010, 12:40 PM
@Dread - I do indeed hit HS before the GCD, I know how its queueing system works. I also use Snowfall KeyPress addon to help minimize my downtime as well. I'll work on the priority system more, as it is I've really just been hitting whatever was up from those few basic moves. I have the pattern for Pillars, I'll look into getting that done.

@Harm - Thanks for the tip about Taunt, and its nice to know the sham was a baddie >.< However, I'm wondering about the chest piece. You suggest the emblem chest, and Dread suggests the crafted legs, but I really like the bonus cooldown from 4-piece tier. What would you guys suggest about that?

In terms of spec, do any of these look better?

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000053351225000212521030113321
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000020000000000000000000000303000000000000 000000000000053351225000212521030113321
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000020000000000000000000000303000000000000 000000000000023351225000212521330113321
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000023351225000212521330113321

Passive
06-12-2010, 12:53 PM
Go with either of the deep wounds specs, they're the best for threat.

About stance dancing. You can actually pop reck, then switch to battle stance and pop retaliation too. The damage from retaliation is some extra threat and you don't need to worry about the increase damage taken with reck up, if you time it right its going to be up for about 5 seconds maximum in the fight. If you die in the first 5 seconds... then I don't know :D

Remember using shield block will also increase the damage done by your Shield Slam via block value. You can also consider pre-potting with an armor pot, it means you can use another one later on in the fight and the armor it gives is a nice little attack power bonus via Armored to the Teeth.

You could even go so far as switching out your shield for one with block value and titanium plating on to increase shield slam damage on engage. You could also use a slow 1hander dps weapon for increased devastate damage. You can always switch to a fast weapon after initial threat so you can start heroic strike spamming, and you can switch the shield out too (in combat).

Flamehoof
06-12-2010, 01:05 PM
So, for a weapon, something like Frost Giant's cleaver? I have that.

I always pre-pot, especially since the Princes issue started. Everything I can do to keep from getting a 20k melee from Tal and a 40k special from Val inside of the same GCD. It HAS happened.../nerd rage

Gonna take the 5/5 Shield Spec, 3/3 Deep Wounds, 3/3 TC, 0/3 Focused Rage. I like the extra 3% block from Shield Spec. And I've never had a problem with rage starving.

So basically, to sum up the pre-fight advice: inside of the 7 second mark on my DBM I pop Reck, Retaliation, make sure I'm in D stance, pot, heroic throw for aggro, shield block and shield slam? That sounds like some awesome initial numbers. I'll try it out tonight.

Any thoughts on the gear issue that came up? I don't have the emblems for the chest yet, but I have access to all the mats I would need for the legs. Don't wanna throw too much gold at the problem until I know which solution to use though.

Harmacy
06-12-2010, 01:14 PM
Pillars of Might, you should always be wearing. Accept no substitutes.

As far as which chestpiece to wear, you could alternate between Cat chest and the 264 tier (if you get a token to upgrade it that is). Cat goes in when you need the threat from expertise, tier goes in on fights where threat is not a huge issue but the extra cooldown is. I wouldn't bother with the 4-piece until you can get a token for your chest though (and probably one for the shoulders first).

The 4-piece is nice, but I'd say that the Cat Chest is good enough to outshine it in most situations.

Flamehoof
06-12-2010, 01:16 PM
Ty Tankspot, you've been a huge help. ICC 10 is tonight, we'll see if this translates into some pro tanking.

Passive
06-12-2010, 01:19 PM
Well pillars of might are definitely the best legs in the game for 90% of fights. I personally would use Tuskarr's Vitality on boots instead, and 18 stam on gloves but i guess change the threat enchant out when you sort out your threat issue. You should definitely spend the money on the Pillars of Might, you'll eventually get the emblems for the tier chest, and as I see you're doing 10hc, you'll eventually get 4 set 264.

When I mentioned the slow dps weapon I only meant for initial threat due to the higher weapon damage for devastate. Heroic strike with a fast weapon will always come out on top for threat. Often the hastle of weapon switching isn't at all worth it.

Good luck, post any finds you make.

Rob Swift
06-12-2010, 01:25 PM
Try disabling Snowfall for a night and see how that works out.

I've accidentally enabled it a couple times, since I pvp on other toons, and I know when it's enabled by how much threat I'm losing. Snowfall is great for snap decisions like a shield wall or an intervene but can really destroy you on abilities that are spammed, Shield Slam as it's coming off of cooldown or Heroic Strike especially.

Another thing that has almost doubled my threat gen. is binding Heroic Strike to scrolling the mousewheel up and down. Roll the mousewheel up and down while tanking and never get a white hit again.

Crommi
06-12-2010, 02:36 PM
However, I'm wondering about the chest piece. You suggest the emblem chest, and Dread suggests the crafted legs, but I really like the bonus cooldown from 4-piece tier. What would you guys suggest about that?
T10 4pc can be useful in fights like Sindragosa and LK, but not absolutely required. For example, on Lich King we found it more useful to have protection warrior just Safeguarding protection paladin who solo-tanks Lich King in phases 2 and 3. Haven't made it to phase2 on heroic25 yet, so I can't tell you if the same strategy still works there.

Dreadski
06-12-2010, 02:47 PM
@Dread - I do indeed hit HS before the GCD, I know how its queueing system works. I also use Snowfall KeyPress addon to help minimize my downtime as well. I'll work on the priority system more, as it is I've really just been hitting whatever was up from those few basic moves. I have the pattern for Pillars, I'll look into getting that done.

@Harm - Thanks for the tip about Taunt, and its nice to know the sham was a baddie >.< However, I'm wondering about the chest piece. You suggest the emblem chest, and Dread suggests the crafted legs, but I really like the bonus cooldown from 4-piece tier. What would you guys suggest about that?

In terms of spec, do any of these look better?

http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000053351225000212521030113321
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000020000000000000000000000303000000000000 000000000000053351225000212521030113321
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000020000000000000000000000303000000000000 000000000000023351225000212521330113321
http://www.wowarmory.com/talent-calc.xml?cid=1&tal=3502000023000000000000000000000300000000000000 000000000000023351225000212521330113321

HS doesn't have a GCD, I'm talking about the 3 to 4 abilities.

Griff
06-13-2010, 09:11 AM
Still, opening up with Taunt is not the greatest idea. Normally I open up with Heroic Throw followed by SS, but I didn't think of stance-dancing and popping Recklessness right before combat started... that's a good idea! I'm gonna have to do that from now on, if my survival is not in jeopardy that is.

This is very true. You end up with less aggro from this for your first gcd than just about any other ability in your typical 'rotation'. Don't open with taunt. Remember, its based on spell hit and not regular hit so while you, being hit capped, aren't going to miss often (expertise is low still) with a nice meaty shield slam, you can miss a taunt more readily.