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View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- Keyboard Turning



Ciderhelm
06-09-2010, 01:40 AM
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http://www.tankspot.com/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

Wani
06-09-2010, 02:08 AM
See, I always picked you to be 21-25ish. Definitely not as young as 17 but you're still older than I expected. :O


Also, I must confess to being... somewhat of a keyboard turner but this is entirely because my set-up is funky and I got myself used to raiding Ulduar on a laptop and not always having a mouse, and well, touchpad turning is far far worse than keyboard turning. Being very left-handed, I can't use a mouse with my right hand, and as a result, I can't comfortably used wasd to move, so have my numpad set up for movement (8456 for up/left/back/right, 79 for strafe left/right) but still use my mouse for most things. The only problem I have with using my mouse is the inability to backpedal when I need to.

Also, an ingame example of keyboard turning vs mouse turning would've been more helpful :P

Synistah
06-09-2010, 02:14 AM
Im a clicker and sometimes a keyboard turner, but not necessarily in raids, I use my mouse to turn almost all of the time.. Keyboard turning really is slow.

Not that clicking is any better, Ive been doing it for 4 years now, And although i can keybind easily i still chose to click and still do consistently well and not cause wipes or die etc.. If i never told you i was a clicker you wouldnt know, EVER.

Infact, i keyboard turn almost everywhere outside of raids except PvP and combat. Bad habit i guess

Now im not saying clicking + keyboard turning is good, If anything its far from it.

These days its more or less a giant taboo.. GIANT NO NO! I have had people call me a good player and then i confess i click + occasionally keyboard turn, Which is usually followed by a swift retraction of the "you are good" statement.

Edit: You should have totally addressed S- Keying while on the topic of keyboard turning simply because this amazing feat is the cause of most players deaths to fires and other "things" in the game. Maybe next time?

Mithrael
06-09-2010, 02:42 AM
I have a feeling that a lot of "keyboard turners" are also "clickers", mainly because you risk overstressing your poor hand trying to do everything with it. You should really do a segment about the click/hotkey thing as well!

As the first poster, I'm also very left-handed and use the numpad for movement, which kind of sucks for some classes because of the limited amount of usable keys. Being a healer mainly, and having all my heals assigned to my mouse buttons (thank you Razer Lachesis) I don't suffer that much because of it, but when playing some alts I just have to resort to clicking the seldom-used abilities. There's always the option to just shove the keyboard to the right and use the "normal" wasd keys, but sometimes it IS hard to teach old dogs new tricks (yeah, I'm even older than you <gasp>!).

Synistah
06-09-2010, 02:49 AM
Technically the majority of keyboard turners have to be clickers, It would prove difficult to click and move your mouse away from your clicks in order to turn.

Again i as a clicker, combat this because i am right handed and use a left handed keyboard. (for when i keybind, Q-Y and 1-( on numpad added with a Shift modifier)) And i also have a mouse which has a pad on the side that acts as a secondary mouse movement.(kinda like a laptop touch pad)

Swidtter
06-09-2010, 03:17 AM
Well I get it a lot...
’NOOB’

Yes, I am a keyboard turning fat tanking bear. But it is possible to push up with a few skills.
I am pushin on LK heroic on both 25 and 10, and I have never had any problems with keyboard turning, my guild has kinda accepted my methods of moving around in a game.
But one of the most common things that I do, which ppl get all ’nub’ exited about is my backpedalling... Yes it’s slower and yes it looks retarded, but I have a question why on earth do you as a tank want to turn your back to a foe like LK or Sindy that hits so f’ing hard even my fat ass and 5 layers of fur aint enough to soak half the dmg.
I guess as a dps you can move around with your mouse, but I tend to use my mouse a lot in terms of targeting mobs for aggro/taunting, and turning my camera a bit, because the boss is blocking the whole view, and I find myself basically incapable of mouseturning, due to I would just run around in a crazy direction ’WOOPs sry, didn’t see that shadowtrap.’

So Lore I get you say keyboard turning is bad, but some players can skill up this nebbish move to matter a whole lot for their game play.

Oki, just watched the vid again. When something fast happens you have to move away from, like blistering cold on Sindy, I get it as a dps or healer you should ofc react fast with your mouse. But as a tank I don’t have like BAM MOVE moments, I like a flow in the a fight, a small dance with the boss, the only time for me to react is like ’ oh shit I have to taunt’ and then I got 3 ways of taunting (a mouse button macro - Shift+1 - an actual taunt i have to CLICK with my mouse, but it only shows when I am targeting a mob I am not having aggro on) ... So those move like hell moment the deeps and healorz are dealing with, I leave them for just them... maybe its good I am not a healer :D

And I just wanted to clarify, I am not a clicker :) I use my mouse clearly for targeting and a few clicks on my UI. (like my weird taunting thing - or to spam recount ofc when I reach no. 1 even during a fight... hell yes baby dps horny tank!)

[off topic]
Lore, you’re 26 :O I thought you was about the 40 <3
and ... girls do not play wow stupid Aliena is clearly just a fake char played by a guy ((jk I love you Aliena))
[/off topic]

Synistah
06-09-2010, 03:28 AM
Back peddling or S-Keying is a tank is fine, S-Keying as a DPS away from fire is not.. Certain situations excluded. Walking away while facing boss with your next rotation being instant casts, S-Keying in PvP, now thats where you have problems =P

I think alot of my friends have come to rest with the fact that i click, But i have been kicked from many guilds for clicking even when i out consistently perform them, Which just baffles me and quite honestly i find offensive. Though some have been merited because i can understand how "I click by choice" can be taken as me not caring about the raid or guilds progression.. In which this is not the case. I personally find i dont have massive gains in performance by Binding over clicking, However again situations arise where the small benefits add up.. IE: Progression content.

Yggdrasil
06-09-2010, 04:30 AM
Used to be a warlock in my guild that would flip out in the private applicant review threads on the guild forums if people pointed out that a player was a keyboard turner or a clicker. Insist that keyboard turning was perfectly acceptable and you can react just as fast with it. You would never guess who I ended up having to battle res when good ol fire came out right? Or who would make blanket statements about how shadow priests and warlocks couldn't break 5k dps (it was Ulduar time period mind you, but surprise surprise her boyfriend was a keyboard turning shadow priest and she was a keyboard turning warlock) She was pretty silly and eventally emo'ed out to no surprise but to this day I still try to understand why it was so important to be right on such a widely accepted practiced.

I mean like Lore said. Certain situations its worth doing. I do it while healing at times for the exact reason or reasons like it that you stated. But the difference is knowing that this is is "NOW" moment to move and a "I got a second" moment to move.

Anyways funny stuff good video. Take it easy.

Synistah
06-09-2010, 04:36 AM
I mean like Lore said. Certain situations its worth doing. I do it while healing at times for the exact reason or reasons like it that you stated. But the difference is knowing that this is is "NOW" moment to move and a "I got a second" moment to move.


Well said, There is a time that keyboard turning wont get you killed and a time that its just silly to do it. I remember when i would keyboard turn in every situation, I noticed my reaction time was slow, my deaths were high and my raid awareness was negligible. Keyboard turning will never be as fast or precise as being able to turn with your mouse especially when you need to change direction or facing multiple times in succession.

Ayeree
06-09-2010, 05:14 AM
Wedding ring, or the One Ring? Come on, you can tell me, you didn't actually throw it into the firey chasm from whence it came did you?

Synistah
06-09-2010, 05:16 AM
Maybe that's how he got his wedding ring.. He ventured into the firey chasm from whence it came to retrieve it and offer it as a gesture of love to his beloved wife. The ultimate act of life risking activity.

Scyla
06-09-2010, 05:38 AM
Well, someone told me once that he couldn't turn his char with the mouse because then he will not be able to activate his spells with the mouse.

Totally logic if you ask me :P .

And I totally agree with the assumption that most keyboard turners are in fact mouse-clickers so maybe you should do an episode about clicking next week.

Hm maybe I should watch the episode about the Nostromo SpeedPad again because I don't know if key-bindings mentioned there.

Synistah
06-09-2010, 05:45 AM
Well, someone told me once that he couldn't turn his char with the mouse because then he will not be able to activate his spells with the mouse.

Totally logic if you ask me :P .

And I totally agree with the assumption that most keyboard turners are in fact mouse-clickers so maybe you should do an episode about clicking next week.

Hm maybe I should watch the episode about the Nostromo SpeedPad again because I don't know if key-bindings mentioned there.

Ironic, I actually sent Lore quite a length message regarding next weeks topic and about it being Clicking and possibly a brief continuation on keyboard turning and a small insight to S-Keying.

Again, Its not entirely possible to Click and not be a keyboard turner since like i said its quite difficult to use your mouse to move while trying at the same time to use it in order to click spells. Hence why i <3 my mouse that has two movement options, one physically moving the mouse and the second a touch pad on the side like a laptop touchpad would be, Allowing me to click(because i choose to, when i choose to) and still maintain a high level of movement and awareness

DnQuxiti
06-09-2010, 06:10 AM
As a tank, I find that key turning has its place, even if mouse turning is better for most things. Basically, any time I need to make fine adjustments, like dealing with mobs deciding to reposition themselves, for example, then I will key turn. I also usually key turn when I need to spin a boss around, as if I strafe left and key turn right, the turn speed is usually just right to spin the boss without presenting my back.

Scyla
06-09-2010, 06:21 AM
Ironic, I actually sent Lore quite a length message regarding next weeks topic and about it being Clicking and possibly a brief continuation on keyboard turning and a small insight to S-Keying.

Again, Its not entirely possible to Click and not be a keyboard turner since like i said its quite difficult to use your mouse to move while trying at the same time to use it in order to click spells. Hence why i <3 my mouse that has two movement options, one physically moving the mouse and the second a touch pad on the side like a laptop touchpad would be, Allowing me to click(because i choose to, when i choose to) and still maintain a high level of movement and awareness

Well my guess is that we all started with some sort of keyboard turning and mouse clicking. Hell I clicked a lot of spells myself still at the beginning of WotLK (mainly hs and cleave). It worked all the way trough classic naxx and sunwell but I wasn't happy with the overall situation so I took Xavs advice and:
Keybind everything!!!!

And my reactiontime as well as my overall capabillity to play WoW rised up quite a notch. So I guess if it works for you it is ok BUT I can tell from my own experience that you could be a much better player with mouseturning and keybindings.That's all i guess.

VampyrByte
06-09-2010, 06:34 AM
Ironic, I actually sent Lore quite a length message regarding next weeks topic and about it being Clicking and possibly a brief continuation on keyboard turning and a small insight to S-Keying.

Again, Its not entirely possible to Click and not be a keyboard turner since like i said its quite difficult to use your mouse to move while trying at the same time to use it in order to click spells. Hence why i <3 my mouse that has two movement options, one physically moving the mouse and the second a touch pad on the side like a laptop touchpad would be, Allowing me to click(because i choose to, when i choose to) and still maintain a high level of movement and awareness

What mouse is that? and how does that work? I'm really interested!

Synistah
06-09-2010, 06:36 AM
Well my guess is that we all started with some sort of keyboard turning and mouse clicking. Hell I clicked a lot of spells myself still at the beginning of WotLK (mainly hs and cleave). It worked all the way trough classic naxx and sunwell but I wasn't happy with the overall situation so I took Xavs advice and:
Keybind everything!!!!

And my reactiontime as well as my overall capabillity to play WoW rised up quite a notch. So I guess if it works for you it is ok BUT I can tell from my own experience that you could be a much better player with mouseturning and keybindings.That's all i guess.

Wishmon
06-09-2010, 06:57 AM
I happen to do both depending what class im playing. i have 1 tank and 4 healers (scared of dps) and when im on my warrior tank im a clicker for most of the fights. my reaction time are fast enough for raiding as as a tank i dont really have to move a great deal so i use my mouse to do my abilities and target... ofc for whatever reason i need to move fast or having a planned movment pattern i can eaisly swap from clicking to keybinding and move with mouse.
when im on my healers it the other way round.. i use my keys to cast the spells and mouse to target frames and/or moving i still do use clicking if i dont have to move, example say i have been spamming 1,2 and 3 key and i want to cast a spell i dont use that much i click it also click when needing a pot or stone. :D

Tressym
06-09-2010, 06:58 AM
When I played a warrior tank I keyboard turned and clicked. Never had any problems at all. A few people complained about it but I simply told them that when they can point out a single situation where my playstyle causes a wipe or makes it harder to kill a boss then I'll consider changing. Until then I'll play my way and they can play their way.

Now I play a priest healer and using mouse-over add-ons pretty much requires that I keyboard turn. Again I've yet to find a situation where it hinders my progress.

I think a lot of people (like me) end up keyboard turning because they really don't know how to type. I'm a "hunt & peck" typist so the idea of keybinds just means I'd make a lot of mistakes. I did end up buying a Merc ZBoard and when I play a dps caster I find it better to move with my mouse and use the 11 keys on the left (above the movement keys) for casting. But the majority of my gameplay consists of keyboard turning and clicking. I'm having fun and that's all that matters to me.

Akeber
06-09-2010, 06:59 AM
Back peddling or S-Keying is a tank is fine


But one of the most common things that I do, which ppl get all ’nub’ exited about is my backpedalling... Yes it’s slower and yes it looks retarded, but I have a question why on earth do you as a tank want to turn your back to a foe like LK or Sindy that hits so f’ing hard even my fat ass and 5 layers of fur aint enough to soak half the dmg.

"Back peddling" as a tank is still bad. This does not mean I advocate turning your back and running, which is also bad. There is the third, and best, option of strafe running.

You can run at full speed while strafing AND your character can dodge/parry/block attacks from bosses/mobs that are attacking you from the side. Combine the two and you can be moving at full speed directly away from the boss/mobs, while still making full use of your avoidance.

Wani
06-09-2010, 07:42 AM
"Back peddling" as a tank is still bad. This does not mean I advocate turning your back and running, which is also bad. There is the third, and best, option of strafe running.

You can run at full speed while strafing AND your character can dodge/parry/block attacks from bosses/mobs that are attacking you from the side. Combine the two and you can be moving at full speed directly away from the boss/mobs, while still making full use of your avoidance.

I can think of two advantages to back peddling, one being positioning Onyxia because if you run off too quickly, chances are your healers aren't up with you. I've wiped at least once because of this. The second being positioning large groups of mobs such as on LK. You can't strafe-run because half of the mobs wind up behind you and moving back slightly also generally gets mobs just in position for a nie shockwave.

Tinytankz
06-09-2010, 09:56 AM
Well i make it no secret that i click and keyboard turn ( a running joke on my ventrilo is that my mouse and keyboard are the loudest ones on the market as you can hear them constantly) i have been looking in game and am a little upset that i do not have the option to speed up my turning IE a setting on to how fast my guy turns when i press the turn button. A sensitivity setting is avialable in a large vareity of other games and it's lacking in wow has me looking into writing an addon to try and get the functionality.

Bodasafa
06-09-2010, 10:42 AM
I mouse turn for the important stuff, ie sindragosas blistering cold. For everything else I use key board turning but its only slight adjustments as a tank you don't do a great deal of flipping around, you want your target to be still and when you move you want it to be minor. Something all tanks have had to learn to deal with since the AI pathing changes in Wrath.

I only back pedal when required like Lady Deathwhisper kiting for example. The rest of the time I strafe run from the boss if I need to move.

Aberen
06-09-2010, 11:26 AM
I agree with Boda, I use both, just depending on the situation. As a warrior tank, the "s" key is my friend right before shockwave. I also have to keyturn while tanking large mobs, so I can click target the mobs I want to pay attention to. All the important situations get the mouse turn. I have also almost perfected the charge clap jump turn shockwave. (sometimes I turn too much hahahaha)

Maritime
06-09-2010, 11:38 AM
I maintain that after 5+ years I am not "doing it wrong". I keybind everything, for both hands, with the vast majority of my abilities directly under my right hand on the numpad. Moving my right hand away from the numpad to the mouse mid-battle to turn then back to the numpad means a loss of hand orientation that requires looking down at the keyboard or risk hitting the wrong keys.

That turn may look slow, but did you notice that while I was turning the boss around I also put up Shield Block, hit him with Shield Slam and queued up Heroic Strike?

And for the record I've never actually had a complaint from anyone about my key-turning.

That said, there are times when you gotta move fast, and that's what the mouse is for (only because we lack a setting for adjusting your key-turn speed... come on Bliz!).

My playstyle/keyboard setup is admittedly terrible for PvP, where movement and positioning is so much more dynamic, but PvP isn't a significant portion of my game.

Knighterrant81
06-09-2010, 02:54 PM
At least for Holy Priest, most of our instant casts do not require you to face the target. I undbound keyboard turning on all my toons long long ago and never looked back or missed them. I'd undbind backpedaling too but I still use that for slight adjustments when tanking mobs so that shockwave hits them.

I also bind autorun to a mouse button, so whenever I am on the move, I can cast instant heals anywhere on my grid frames.

Trecus
06-09-2010, 02:59 PM
Not gonna lie to anyone about this: we literally have major problems with one of our retribution paladins for this exact reason. Now just to paint the story here. He's a great raider, good dps, reliable. But when we hit heroic Sindragosa... things just got bad. He would get killed from blistering cold like clockwork. When we had him try to run through the dragon it would work sometimes but occasionally raid damage would kill him before he got back to the healers. This week's tankspot will be a great eye opener to him.. I hope.

I will tell ya Maritime that key turning can be less dynamic for a tank. Although I've found it makes for picking up adds much easier, at least for my style.

Insahnity
06-09-2010, 03:35 PM
Perhaps a little explanation of how keyboards are designed and work, and how they compare to mice, are in order.

When you press a key, the key (Say the "a" key) contains a contact, which completes a circuit. A keyboard is designed for typing, so as soon as the contact is a closed, a single "a" is sent as a signal. However, a long time ago, computer designers quickly discovered that you can be in a situation that the computer will CONTINUOUSLY insert "a" for the duration that the contact is closed. The net result is every time somebody touched a key, they got, no joke, hundreds of "a" because the computer is so much faster than the human hand lifting off the key.To counter this, they programmed all computers to "wait" before putting another letter. This is know as a Typematic Delay, Repeat Delay, or Repeat Rate, and is a few miliseconds. So now, when you press a key, it will wait a few miliseconds between "a".

In context of WoW:
When you press the "a" key, the character turns by one pixel. Then the Typematic Delay kicks in before it moves another pixel. You might say a few milliseconds is not much, up until you factor you have to turn a thousand pixels to change directions, then a few milliseconds between a pixel becomes significant. BTW, when Lore comically turns slowly, this is in fact what he is doing, pausing between turns, which corresponds to a delayed key repeat.

Now a mouse, it was designed to track every motion, up, down, left, right, rotational, whatever. And many mice sport 1200 or 2400 DPI or Dots Per Inch, which means that a mouse "presses the key" 1200 or 2400 times PER INCH of travel. That is why characters move so quick with a mouse, especially if you see how fast it takes for your mouse to travel 1 inch (or 25.4 mm, for us international members).

NOTE:
To all you smarty pants who think you can turn fiddle with Typematic Delayto prove you can keyboard turn as good as a mouse turner, (which, in some BIOSes, you can adjust or reduce to comical values). DON'T! While it would be fantastic for WoW, you will never be able to type anything coherent again, breaking your PC. If you do this, I will laugh at your stupidity and won't be held responsible for it.

Maritime
06-09-2010, 03:50 PM
I will tell ya Maritime that key turning can be less dynamic for a tank. Although I've found it makes for picking up adds much easier, at least for my style.

Possibly. But I don't see the point in retraining years of muscle memory for what has never, to my knowledge, been a problem. Of course, for all I know my guildmates are happy I'm on a raiding sabbatical. :P

Synistah
06-09-2010, 05:04 PM
Well my guess is that we all started with some sort of keyboard turning and mouse clicking. Hell I clicked a lot of spells myself still at the beginning of WotLK (mainly hs and cleave). It worked all the way trough classic naxx and sunwell but I wasn't happy with the overall situation so I took Xavs advice and:
Keybind everything!!!!

And my reactiontime as well as my overall capabillity to play WoW rised up quite a notch. So I guess if it works for you it is ok BUT I can tell from my own experience that you could be a much better player with mouseturning and keybindings.That's all i guess.

I understand what you are saying in terms of effectivness and efficiency between keyboard turning, clicking and binding. Now just to repeat again before i go ahead because it seems you didnt read it, I can keybind everything perfectly well and i infact CHOOSE to click, Of course situations occur where i will use complete mouse clicking and keybinds such as PvP, and Core Progression Nights where the small gains i experience by binding add up with everyone in the raid combined.

I have tried numerous times, Clicking and Binding the same fights (i never keyboard turn anywhere except Dalaran), The difference in performance is maybe 2% in total and about a 1% increase in DoT uptime. Now i am NOT in anyway condoning clicking or saying that people shouldnt learn to keybind, But what i am saying is that in my personal experiences it does not effect my performance, my raid awareness and my general ability to raid.

Im a raid leader in my guild and was for a period of time a member of a Top 100 Raiding guild(Yes i know, means nothing). But apparently i must be doing something right..

So troll and/or flame me all you want for willingly being a clicker while having the ability to key bind perfectly fine, But as far as i am concerned if i can fulfill my role as good and even better then my fellow guild mates, If i dont die to fire or blistering cold, if i can maintain great raid awareness i am doing my job.. And there is nothing else i can ask for, or as a matter of fact my guild leader could ask for, Regardless if i do so while clicking or key binding it really shouldn't matter, And as alot of people have found out you would not know i clicked unless i told you.

But anyway long story short, I do my job, I have fun raiding and have fun playing. Nothing will change on me behalf.

Rennadrel
06-09-2010, 07:27 PM
Back peddling or S-Keying is a tank is fine, S-Keying as a DPS away from fire is not.. Certain situations excluded. Walking away while facing boss with your next rotation being instant casts, S-Keying in PvP, now thats where you have problems =P



Yes, us Facerolladins know this all too well.

Viertel
06-09-2010, 09:25 PM
There are a lot of people that run around with poorly placed talents and mis-matched gear. They've probably been doing it for years, just like a lot of people have been keyboard turning for years. Just because you've been doing something and have been "getting by" with it "OK" for years just like they've been "getting by" with their wonky talent choices "OK" doesn't mean it's right.

With the exception of *maybe* frontal conal attacks, there's never really any reason to backpedal. It's slower, and inefficient. If you have a problem running out of range of healers as a tank, then make them actually start moving before you're out of range. Why something with that much common sense would need to be said is beyond me. With the exception of knockback/punting attacks, "OOR!" is an only an excuse in raiding, *never* a reason*, and should be used to weed out people not paying attention from those that are.

I also don't get the mentality some people have of "it's OK to keyboard in this situation, but not in others" or "I KBT here but MT here". It makes no sense; instead of just using the mouse (which is faster and more responsive to quick adjustments), you're going to now train yourself to try to use *TWO* movement patterns? I can only imagine how many times people screw up on what they WANT to do but end up doing something else because neurons got crosswired when adjusting from two different moving patterns.

Klaerth
06-09-2010, 09:50 PM
There are a lot of people that run around with poorly placed talents and mis-matched gear. They've probably been doing it for years, just like a lot of people have been keyboard turning for years. Just because you've been doing something and have been "getting by" with it "OK" for years just like they've been "getting by" with their wonky talent choices "OK" doesn't mean it's right.


I've been trying to keep my two cents out of this one, even though this is an issue that hits me personally pretty hard in regards to WoW and the way I play.

However, this is a fallacy. Running around with poorly placed talents and mis-matched gear does not equate to whether or not you move with the keyboard or the mouse. Or whether or not you switch it up depending on what, exactly you are doing. There are definite standards regarding talents and gear that must be met, they are not relative. Whereas using a mouse or a keyboard to move your character is. There are things that as long as they do get the job done, it doesn't matter how one does them. Gemming, enchanting, using the right gear...these are not those things. The way you move your character is one of those things.

I will give you my own personal example. WoW is the first MMO I ever played. Ever. It is the one I learned on and I learned on it by playing on a laptop with no external mouse and no separate keypad. I use the four direction keys on the bottom right side. Yes. The up, down, left, and right arrows. I use shift-left to strafe left and shift-right to strafe right. I have every single ability I have bound to keys that I can access with my left hand without ever moving my fingers from the "home row" using combinations of shift, ctrl, and alt. I will every now and then use the touchpad mouse on my laptop to reposition my camera angle. I never use the mouse to target. I never use the mouse to click abilities.

Sound clunky? Sure it does.

But...

I also touch type at almost 120 words per minute with 99-100% accuracy. It is actually faster for me to do things by using the keys on the keyboard than by manipulating a mouse. And on the rare occasion when I do have to use the touchpad mouse, I can instantly get my hand back where it goes simply by feeling the bump on the F key. I can...and do...even take the time to type short messages in raid chat or even guild chat...without ever missing any part of my rotation.

Using the keyboard, for me (as someone else has already pointed out in this very thread) has become a matter of muscle-memory and habit to the point that it's almost second nature. Much like one of the greatest trumpet players in history played by puffing out his cheeks, which is the "wrong" way to do it and any music instructor worth their credentials will tell you that under no circumstances you should ever puff your cheeks out when playing the trumpet.

Sure I could turn faster with the mouse. But I've never seen the need to disrupt my muscle memory and my habits by learning the "right" way to do things. Has any of this affected my raiding ability? Not really.

People have actually accused me of either making a joke or outright lying before when I tell them that I never use the mouse. Why? Because they can't tell the difference between the way I play and the way someone doing it the "right" way plays.

Now I will concede that based on my own personal experiences, it is easier to use a mouse when playing certain DPS classes (I have obtained an external mouse and keyboard for this). I still keybind everything and do not click, but again that's because I personally find it easier and faster to "type" my actions. I learned a long time ago that I should not play healers and I do not play healers.

But on my tank? Yes. I keyboard turn and wouldn't want to do it any other way.

Goins2754
06-09-2010, 09:56 PM
I've made a particularly bad situation for myself. I've trained myself to keyboard turn & have keybound all of my abilities to the number pad. Most fights will go something like this: T - target, Numpad Enter to Judge Light, Num4 to Shield of Righteousness, Shift + NumEnter for Consecration, etc. The only time I use my mouse (most of the time) is to loot bodies.

There are only very specific times where this has caused me issues. The main one is on a fear. When I'm feared, it messes with my camera angles something fierce. Luckily, I have keybound several decent camera angles to 1-4 above WASD. It's a quick tap to reset the camera, but a slow turn to reengage the target.

I've bought a Razer Naga to help fix the situation, but man is it slow going. Learning to click 15 buttons with your thumb & learning to mouse turn all at once is a tall order.

Scyla
06-10-2010, 04:39 AM
I understand what you are saying in terms of effectivness and efficiency between keyboard turning, clicking and binding. Now just to repeat again before i go ahead because it seems you didnt read it, I can keybind everything perfectly well and i infact CHOOSE to click, Of course situations occur where i will use complete mouse clicking and keybinds such as PvP, and Core Progression Nights where the small gains i experience by binding add up with everyone in the raid combined.

I have tried numerous times, Clicking and Binding the same fights (i never keyboard turn anywhere except Dalaran), The difference in performance is maybe 2% in total and about a 1% increase in DoT uptime. Now i am NOT in anyway condoning clicking or saying that people shouldnt learn to keybind, But what i am saying is that in my personal experiences it does not effect my performance, my raid awareness and my general ability to raid.
Im a raid leader in my guild and was for a period of time a member of a Top 100 Raiding guild(Yes i know, means nothing). But apparently i must be doing something right..

So troll and/or flame me all you want for willingly being a clicker while having the ability to key bind perfectly fine, But as far as i am concerned if i can fulfill my role as good and even better then my fellow guild mates, If i dont die to fire or blistering cold, if i can maintain great raid awareness i am doing my job.. And there is nothing else i can ask for, or as a matter of fact my guild leader could ask for, Regardless if i do so while clicking or key binding it really shouldn't matter, And as alot of people have found out you would not know i clicked unless i told you.

But anyway long story short, I do my job, I have fun raiding and have fun playing. Nothing will change on me behalf.

Hey I didn't try to be offensive but if you got that impression I'm really sorry.

All I want to say was that I feel much more comfortable now that I can reach every spell with a press of a key (and only my left hand knuckles hurt while I'm playing WoW because I don't have to use the right hand to click) .
Thats what I noticed. But I also did quite well with a combination of both for quite a long time and I noticed I can do better.
I guess it depends also on what class you are playing. With my shadow priest I have a rather easy job to keep up the "rotation" but as a tank playing sounds like someone is torturing a keyboard because I hit the keys maybe 10 times during a GCD and I get the impression that when I don't do that I'm lacking in threat-production.

So if it ok for you that's fine. Oh and I do click my focus macro!


And if you feel offended by my rusty English skills one extra sorry for you! :)

VampyrByte
06-10-2010, 04:49 AM
Perhaps a little explanation of how keyboards are designed and work, and how they compare to mice, are in order.

When you press a key, the key (Say the "a" key) contains a contact, which completes a circuit. A keyboard is designed for typing, so as soon as the contact is a closed, a single "a" is sent as a signal. However, a long time ago, computer designers quickly discovered that you can be in a situation that the computer will CONTINUOUSLY insert "a" for the duration that the contact is closed. The net result is every time somebody touched a key, they got, no joke, hundreds of "a" because the computer is so much faster than the human hand lifting off the key.To counter this, they programmed all computers to "wait" before putting another letter. This is know as a Typematic Delay, Repeat Delay, or Repeat Rate, and is a few miliseconds. So now, when you press a key, it will wait a few miliseconds between "a".

In context of WoW:
When you press the "a" key, the character turns by one pixel. Then the Typematic Delay kicks in before it moves another pixel. You might say a few milliseconds is not much, up until you factor you have to turn a thousand pixels to change directions, then a few milliseconds between a pixel becomes significant. BTW, when Lore comically turns slowly, this is in fact what he is doing, pausing between turns, which corresponds to a delayed key repeat.

Now a mouse, it was designed to track every motion, up, down, left, right, rotational, whatever. And many mice sport 1200 or 2400 DPI or Dots Per Inch, which means that a mouse "presses the key" 1200 or 2400 times PER INCH of travel. That is why characters move so quick with a mouse, especially if you see how fast it takes for your mouse to travel 1 inch (or 25.4 mm, for us international members).

NOTE:
To all you smarty pants who think you can turn fiddle with Typematic Delayto prove you can keyboard turn as good as a mouse turner, (which, in some BIOSes, you can adjust or reduce to comical values). DON'T! While it would be fantastic for WoW, you will never be able to type anything coherent again, breaking your PC. If you do this, I will laugh at your stupidity and won't be held responsible for it.

While what you say about Typematic Delay is 100% correct when typing, and indeed when typing in chat in WoW. It has sod all to do with character movement. Not a jot. You see, Keyboards report when a key is pressed, and again when it is released. Your keyboard does not continuously spam your computer. You know this because if it did, and presuming you have a USB keyboard, you would not be able to do anything else as the transmission would quickly saturate the USB controller and possibly even the PCI bus with it.

Typematic delay obviously comes in when typing, anyone of us can open notepad, hold down a button and voila we can see that slight pause between the first character coming up and the subsequent 20. However back to WoW. If you tap your "a" key an animation is started that shifts your character slightly to the left and stops. When you hold down the "a" key, the character turns on the spot smoothly. If you were to take typematic delay into account there would be a small pause at the start of this movement like the noticealbe pause when spamming notepad.

More evidence of this can be seen with your action bars. I tap "2" to Shield Slam, if I hold "2" the game waits until I release before activating Shield Slam (it doesnt because I have speedy actions installed, which is a mod which wouldnt function if keyboards didnt work in a "Key Pushed" "Key Released" way, but it would if I deactivated this addon). If Holding "2" spammed the game with such message It would function the same as holding it down. Indeed it would even reactivate 6 seconds later after the cooldown.

Mice are also 2 axis devices. I'm not going to say too much about them because I'm not really familar with quite how they report movement to the computer. But most mice are 2 axis, they dont track rotation! Indeed if you were to turn it around on the spot, the changes reported to the computer will be change in the x and y movement values and not the fact the mouse is rotating.

Also, feel free to mess with Typematic Delay, you can do it in the windows control panel, under keyboard settings. I imagine Mac guys will be able to find it aswell. Setting it to the minimum avaliable to Windows doesnt break your PC, I just did it and typed this responce to you. I guess you could go edit the value itself in the registry or wherever and setting it to 0 would certainly make things interesting. But you could always put it back. This also wont do much for turning around in WoW, but might make it a bit more of a pain to type to your guildies.

Back to WoW again, the reason keyboard turning is slower is because of the time it takes to actually turn when pressing the keybaord. Since Blizz does not allow this value to be modified (Addons anyone?) it takes a definite ammount of time to do a 360 degree turn by holding down "a". I timed it to be between 1.5 and 2 seconds. With my mouse, I can do probably a hundred 360 degree turns in that time if I use maximum sensitivity values for my mouse and ingame.

Synistah
06-10-2010, 04:50 AM
Hey I didn't try to be offensive but if you got that impression I'm really sorry.

All I want to say was that I feel much more comfortable now that I can reach every spell with a press of a key (and only my left hand knuckles hurt while I'm playing WoW because I don't have to use the right hand to click) .
Thats what I noticed. But I also did quite well with a combination of both for quite a long time and I noticed I can do better.
I guess it depends also on what class you are playing. With my shadow priest I have a rather easy job to keep up the "rotation" but as a tank playing sounds like someone is torturing a keyboard because I hit the keys maybe 10 times during a GCD and I get the impression that when I don't do that I'm lacking in threat-production.

So if it ok for you that's fine. Oh and I do click my focus macro!


And if you feel offended by my rusty English skills one extra sorry for you! :)

haha actually nah i didnt take it offensively at all =P Im the one who is sorry that it came out that way haha.. Lets both agree that none of us are on the offensive =P

I PLAY A SHADOW PRIEST TOO! *gasp*

I know what you mean, At first key binding felt a lot more comfortable and it took a while to be able to feel comfortable with both and not run the risk of accidentally trying to click while im supposed to be key binding and vice versa =P

I think in general my point more or less is that as long as i am doing my job in raids by providing consistently high DPS, Good raid awareness, avoiding silly mistakes and no unnecessary or unforced deaths then it really shouldn't matter to people if i key bind or click.

Even more so after the fact such as cases where i have been removed from a guild after being praised by members once i told them i clicked, and cases where i have been denied loot because someone felt the need to yell "HE CLICKS" over vent..

penpen002
06-10-2010, 04:55 AM
I lol @ people thinking that you two are married. Oh...gotta love the interwebs!

Scyla
06-10-2010, 06:45 AM
haha actually nah i didnt take it offensively at all =P Im the one who is sorry that it came out that way haha.. Lets both agree that none of us are on the offensive =P


Well I'm tending to agree with you but on the other hand it might be time for an good old Internet flamewar!
Get the missile-launchers ready :D .

Oh... I ought to say something on the topic and it must be really really meaningful...
Hm... what about.... na won't work...

...well, I thought about it for one hour at least and couldn't come up with something useful.
I'm so sorry *sad panda*

Bashal
06-10-2010, 06:58 AM
There are a lot of people that run around with poorly placed talents and mis-matched gear. They've probably been doing it for years, just like a lot of people have been keyboard turning for years. Just because you've been doing something and have been "getting by" with it "OK" for years just like they've been "getting by" with their wonky talent choices "OK" doesn't mean it's right.

Well, this is the way I look at it. If you want to raid with folks who care about your spec and whether or not you keyboard turn, expect that you'll have to respec/learn to mouse turn or badness will ensue.

If you want to be left alone to do your own thing while you raid, raid with folks who don't care. That might be a bit of a tall order, but there it is.

Mhoram
06-10-2010, 11:31 AM
I do wish there was a left-hander that made some of these videos. It's very easy to say "just use WASD like everybody else does, but it's really not that simple. Right-handers play WoW (and other games) the same way they use their keyboards and mice everyday. Lefties have to pretty much learn a different way of using the keyboard, just for games.

Yeah, you can learn to use the keyboard and mouse right-handed. I can do it if I have to (I work in IT, so I'm always having to use other peoples' computers). But it's one thing to do it in noncritical situations, and another thing completely to be able to do it when you need split-second reactions. I just wish there was some more emphasis put on that than just "oh yeah, just run around till you get it down". As others here have said, we either have to learn how to use the WASD keys in new ways, or adapt/kluge our way through things - like the numberpad examples above.

Shivan
06-10-2010, 12:50 PM
When I first started tanking on my warrior in Mags lair someone whispered me... "are you a keyboard turner, lol. That is bad if you really want to tank." From that point on I forced myself to mouse turn and it made a huge different to me anyway. However, when healing I do use the mouse to activate most of my casts so there is some keyboard turning going on there but in most cases I know where I am going to be going in advance and turn that direction long before the movement is needed. if they ever make healers face their target I might be in trouble.

LadenTouch
06-11-2010, 01:07 AM
Id have to say that was very amusing.. I loved just idk.. loved seeing the aggravating of the fact that people do that.. i think its funny they do. And the whole intro as well. Keep up the good work.

Linoge-Fly
06-11-2010, 03:12 AM
"Gorzantus" pronunciation it was awesome :D

Felix
06-11-2010, 10:44 AM
I asked in my guild how people turn and bar our main tank ( who is insainly talented ) I was the only person keyboard turning. I now have remade my UI and spent all night and today learning how to turn with my mouse and no to click on the icons as it is not pracical anymore. I was shocked how much of a difference it can make once you convert over!

As always loved the podcast.

Necronancy
06-11-2010, 06:12 PM
Keyboard turning is almost never about not being able to mouseturn, which is incredibly easy to learn. It is almost always about not being able to use keybinds to cast, which is much harder to learn.

I think any mention of keyboard turning should also mention keybinding and unlearning the click-icon mentality.

Katfish
06-12-2010, 03:26 AM
I keyboard turn and I also mouse click. Moving around with the mouse isn't hard for me but the problem I have is not clicking on my spells. Looking down at my keyboard to find which number to press takes me longer then clicking it on my screen with my mouse. If I only used a couple spells that would be easier but that isn't the case. There are many times as a pally tank I need to cast other non common spells on others or what not. Also, if I need to move the boss back just a hair, if i mouse turn and run back, I have ran to far. So I need to keyboard turn on those moments of backing up just a hair.

On other note. As a healer I use healbot. :P lol

Tressym
06-12-2010, 06:35 AM
I lol @ people thinking that you two are married. Oh...gotta love the interwebs!

I don't believe it's an unreasonable assumption for anyone to think they're an item. Although I assume that most people, like me, don't really care either way. But if I go to a website that has a male and female host that are discussing the same subject, I might assume that they're involved. But since I don't see why it would matter in any given situation, it's something I'd never bring up.

Edit: I thought I should better clarify what I'm saying. Basically not knowing anything about the host of this site or anyone involved with it if someone told me they are a couple I would most likely believe it.

Mmiz
06-13-2010, 08:56 AM
Keyboard turning is bad in 99% of situations.. that I can keyb turn and run away from sindergosa (hc) cause I'm having a smoke doing it is not somthing I'd recomend most players.(especially shammys and others without abileties to gett fast away) I do how ever heal and in P3 sindergosa for example I will normal y do a 180 mousturn as I pop my nature swiftnes with my keyboard just to continue running with keyb and using HW on tank if needed or ch on raid if needed. (fairly comon in p3 on hc that either tank or raid need a instant at that point.) so somtimes combinations are the best but the general ruel is NONONO :D

Oh I play a resto sahmmy btw:p

Tadra
06-13-2010, 12:07 PM
I'm a clicker AND key board turner (><) but ive yet to come across something that has hindered my performance in anyway. My guild has come to terms with my "handicap" and accept me as i am. My opinion is, if you are skilled at one way of playing the game why would u mess with that just because someone says its "taboo" or bad? If u can consistently out perform that haters dont change, jusr continue to show them how skilled you are.

Kazeyonoma
06-14-2010, 10:33 AM
I'm a clicker AND key board turner (><) but ive yet to come across something that has hindered my performance in anyway. My guild has come to terms with my "handicap" and accept me as i am. My opinion is, if you are skilled at one way of playing the game why would u mess with that just because someone says its "taboo" or bad? If u can consistently out perform that haters dont change, jusr continue to show them how skilled you are.

Because as skilled as you are now, you could be even better, even if you have to suffer for a bit to adapt to the changes. In a game where the most difficult of encounter mechanics revolve around movement, clicking and keyboard turning simply is playing at a disadvantage, figuring out ways around them are cool, we all know about them, but the simple fact is you COULD be better, and claiming that your guild "accepts" you for who you are is noble, but it also means you're holding back your guild because they aren't calling you out on it.

Mhoram
06-14-2010, 12:11 PM
Because as skilled as you are now, you could be even better, even if you have to suffer for a bit to adapt to the changes. In a game where the most difficult of encounter mechanics revolve around movement, clicking and keyboard turning simply is playing at a disadvantage, figuring out ways around them are cool, we all know about them, but the simple fact is you COULD be better, and claiming that your guild "accepts" you for who you are is noble, but it also means you're holding back your guild because they aren't calling you out on it.

I'd think, if the guild were that worried about being held back, there might be far more pressing reasons than keyboard turning.

After all, some of the greatest talents in history did things in non-conventional ways.

(I'm not arguing the point that he could be better. We could all be better, no matter how good we are now (or think we are, at any rate).)

Erobinia
06-14-2010, 12:13 PM
To be able to strafe, mouse turn, key turn, backpedal, and strafe-turn effectively, and to fluidly transition between all of those, are the most valuable skills you can develop as a tank. None of your gear or rotations or talents matter all that much if you don't have the footwork down.

Swapping the locations of the strafe and turn keys (Q <--> A; E <--> D) makes this feel much more natural - there's a reason most FPS's and other "twitch" games use this as the default.

Schwegburt
06-14-2010, 02:40 PM
To the people who want to stick with clicking/keyboard turning. All the more power to you if you can pull it off, you're probably a great player in general. You can even make a million excuses for why you do better clicking and keyboard turning than the plebians in your raid, but at the end of the day Binds and Mouse turning are still better.

A skilled individual is going to perform well no matter what, but how can they do their best? Look at Usain Bolt, the bastard broke the 100m World Record in Beijing, beating his chest and slowing down the last 20 meters, with his shoelaces untied!! Guess what though, he shattered his own world record later by actually doing everything right. That's the essence of Binds and Mouse turning.

Keyboarding turning and clicking is a personal handicap, you may do a lot better than the bind/mouse turning player right next to you, but that's a relative thing. That's the same concept of Gearscore vs skill. Gearscore simply suggests maximal playing ability, and rest assured horribly geared players can and have beat raiders w/ +6k gs. But using binds and mouse turning only improve your personal abilities if you take the time to become proficient in them. We argue over min/maxxing such as gemming, talents and theorycraft why is it hard to acknowledge something that you can improve upon on your own.

Tressym
06-15-2010, 12:11 AM
To the people who want to stick with clicking/keyboard turning. All the more power to you if you can pull it off, you're probably a great player in general. You can even make a million excuses for why you do better clicking and keyboard turning than the plebians in your raid, but at the end of the day Binds and Mouse turning are still better.

A skilled individual is going to perform well no matter what, but how can they do their best? Look at Usain Bolt, the bastard broke the 100m World Record in Beijing, beating his chest and slowing down the last 20 meters, with his shoelaces untied!! Guess what though, he shattered his own world record later by actually doing everything right. That's the essence of Binds and Mouse turning.

Keyboarding turning and clicking is a personal handicap, you may do a lot better than the bind/mouse turning player right next to you, but that's a relative thing. That's the same concept of Gearscore vs skill. Gearscore simply suggests maximal playing ability, and rest assured horribly geared players can and have beat raiders w/ +6k gs. But using binds and mouse turning only improve your personal abilities if you take the time to become proficient in them. We argue over min/maxxing such as gemming, talents and theorycraft why is it hard to acknowledge something that you can improve upon on your own.

There is no personal handicap to having fun. WoW is just a video game. Being .05 seconds faster than someone else at performing a move doesn't improve your life, pay your bills, or get you a raise. Play the game the way you enjoy it most. If playing a certain way prevents you from doing everything you want to do in the game, then consider changing. Until then, just have fun.

Yggdrasil
06-15-2010, 04:26 AM
There is no personal handicap to having fun. WoW is just a video game. Being .05 seconds faster than someone else at performing a move doesn't improve your life, pay your bills, or get you a raise. Play the game the way you enjoy it most. If playing a certain way prevents you from doing everything you want to do in the game, then consider changing. Until then, just have fun.

I always find myself dump founded by responses like this. One it shouldn't be all that important to someone that does keyboard turn to defend something this trvial. Not like keyboard turning pays your bills or makes the game funner. I mean I push these 2-3 buttons is funner then you pushing those 2-3 buttons? Amazingly amazing if you ask me for sure. Reaction time speed up helps you stay alive longer and get turned to the right angles more quickly that are things that can really improve game play, oh, and please note the can. If your satisfied with where you are at then by all means. I think what most people fail to realize is a lot of people that go to sites like this really want to either learn how to be better or understand what makes certain players able to do certain things. This is one of those things. If your not interested I am confused by the whole reading and heart filled defense statements made. I mean granted I am sure it is a little more then just a game to me because it has been elavated certainly to hobby by this point. But that is just how I feel at the moment. :p

Tressym
06-15-2010, 04:51 AM
Nope, I just get baffled when people make claims such as "keyboard turning and clicking are a personal handicap" as if it should really mean that much to everyone. I rank it right up there with the folks who say they "worked really hard" for their gear. Video games don't count as hard work nor can any aspect of it equate to a personal handicap. Losing your job, not being able to walk or talk, those are personal handicaps. Video games are entertainment, nothing more. If someone is having fun by clicking and keyboard turning they shouldn't let people who take this game way too serious convince them they are somehow hindering their life over it.


I always find myself dump founded by responses like this. One it shouldn't be all that important to someone that does keyboard turn to defend something this trvial. Not like keyboard turning pays your bills or makes the game funner. I mean I push these 2-3 buttons is funner then you pushing those 2-3 buttons? Amazingly amazing if you ask me for sure. Reaction time speed up helps you stay alive longer and get turned to the right angles more quickly that are things that can really improve game play, oh, and please note the can. If your satisfied with where you are at then by all means. I think what most people fail to realize is a lot of people that go to sites like this really want to either learn how to be better or understand what makes certain players able to do certain things. This is one of those things. If your not interested I am confused by the whole reading and heart filled defense statements made. I mean granted I am sure it is a little more then just a game to me because it has been elavated certainly to hobby by this point. But that is just how I feel at the moment. :p

Subetei
06-16-2010, 10:03 AM
i've done both... anecdotal evidence doesn't prove anything. it has it's plusses and minuses. it's harder and slower to target with mouse turning. i don't think i've ever died in a raid because i was keyboard turning though. i play all casters i'm sure it's more better for melees. the difference or impact (like a lot of things in WoW) seems to get more exaggerated as time goes by. players should be more skeptical of some of these things but definitely keyboard turn does suck for pvp... sometimes.

i mean there's this phenomena where there's x and y and if you do x you suck and if you do y you are really good when it turns out the difference between x and y is like 10dps or something. there's these theoretical abstractions then a lot of confirmation bias.

uglie
06-17-2010, 07:50 PM
3 things. i am stick a keyboard turning and clicker with a lil mouse movement, and was wondering how to move backwards just little bit so that you dont have mobs beating on your back?
2) wouldn't the best time to learn to mouse move be when not progressively raiding. I.e. when cata comes out? i know i wouldn't want to mess up the fight simply because i was relearning how to play.
3) i've seen a lot of keyboard turners use tab targeting and accidently pull an unwanted mob. i personally feel mouse targetting is more precise for this reason

Mmiz
06-18-2010, 11:42 AM
I find the easyest way to strafe is to hold down mouse key and use a---d (no they aint reboud) this is somthing I used to do in fps aswell as somtimes you want to keyb turn but mostly you want to mouse turn. also this makes shifting cam easyer when healing (I shift my cam to gett better overlook somtimes then in closer as I move to move more presice (first person in dreamstate :p)


uglie:
3)for targeting if youre singel targeting assist is realy usfull.. tab targeting is however better than mouse targeting mouse targeting is just so much slower in most situations... a combination of proper tabtargeting (there are ways to make sure its the right target) and assist is defo the best most efficient targeting method.

2)spend a evening doing heroics using mouse turning.. Most ppl have litle problem mouse turning and you will learn it realy quick... and tbh even if you're only getting to lets say 85% response time mouse turning you will still outperform keyb turning and can use it raiding. (I'd try it on farm night first Tuesday in the us wed in the EU)

1)A good point when moving is you newer have to turn youre back to annything l2strafe newer backpedal even in pve strafing is so much faster.. this goes for healers aswell if you backpedal you lose valubal time you could be casting a heal. for tanks it might result in failing to pick up a ad in time or gett to the rigth position in time... for dps it means lost dps time.

Theotherone
06-18-2010, 12:24 PM
The issue of keyboard turning or mouse turning has never come up in my guild. As a practical matter I do both depending on the toon and the situation. Tanking I tend to use the keyboard more, dps on the hunter mouse more. Some of us older players learned by keyboard turning from the early FPS days and it works for us.

bali132
06-18-2010, 01:16 PM
Exciteing presentation of reality.
I like it.
and when u ,the maer see ,read my "letter",pls ask to make something abaut the "lich-king, kill-ing",so that we knw how to make it better(actually I knw couse i've done it with 12 members ,all over 45000 hp and 6000-7500 demage+ abilities ,so each araund 11000 for a hit and who had spells 24-25000 so it wasn't so hard...).

Greetings:Mr.Mysteryo,the world explorer,the explorer,highlord of the netherwing,the patros,highlord of the ebon blade,the horrible,the mad,the striker ,and the one for killing the l k i don't knw.LOL XD (56721hp,8762-10234demage)

Lachesis
06-22-2010, 01:16 PM
Personally, I see a huge difference between a good keyboard turner and a bad keyboard turner. I am the former when I play my tanks. Even in my kitty offspec, I keyboard turn.

Here's a few basic examples contrasting a good KBTer and a bad KBTer:
Sindragosa's Blistering cold:
Good KBTer: turns 90 degrees in midair, then uses strafe keys to run out. Makes it out with plenty of time.
Bad KBTer: turns 180 degrees after landing, then uses W to run out. This player dies.

Lich King's Defile:
Good KBTer: Keeps himself positioned so that hitting a strafe key will get him immediately running in a safe direction. When targeted, mashes strafe. Defile ends up away from other raiders.
Bad KBTer: does not think about his positioning at all. When targeted, uses turn key to turn, then forward key to run. Causes wipe to defile.

Rotface's little ooze spawn thingie:
Good KBTer: knows where the kiter is at all times. uses turn keys to position himself, while dpsing or healing, so that if infected he can simply run forward or strafe in a straight path to the kiter. If the kiter is behind him when infencted, MOUSE TURNS while using keyboard to run forward.
Bad KBTer: when infected, uses keyboard to slowly spin around, looking for the kiter. When he finds the kiter, he runs forward to get there.


As I hope I've illustrated, a good keyboard turner will almost exclusively use forward or strafe when moving, and have himself positioned such that he is already on a direct line to where he needs to go. A poor keyboard turner will stop, turn, move, and turn back. Most KBTers are in the bad category. A few, some of whom have posted here, are in the good column.

Also, I'd like to clarify that I am a proficient mouse-turner as well. I have a discipline priest alt that I mouse-turn almost 95% of the time on. All of my major spells (shield, pennance, flash heal, PoM, binding) are bound to mouse buttons, so it feels more natural for me to use that playstyle with that character. However, when raiding, I do often keyboard turn out of things so I can continue healing as I do so, exactly as Lore suggested in his video.

makrelll
06-23-2010, 09:16 AM
So Lore...

Unbeknownst to me, just healed a heroic with 3 of your guildies. To say it was a tad rough would be an understatement. You should make it mandatory for them to watch your tankspot videos and sign off. I won't even begin to talk about game awareness.... But UGH KEYBOARD TURNING?!?!?!? Oh Noes! "Hey look at me, I'm in a void-spawn. Hehe, I think I'll keyboard turn" Was entertaining to say the least, LOL. Anyhoo keep up the good work on the vids, very imformative! Thanks! And preach moare bout keyboard turning plox :P

Arencey
06-23-2010, 11:11 PM
Funny and down to earth. I can see why so many players have trouble picking up mouse turning, many wow players come from consoles as I do and the keyboard just feels more like doing it the old fashioned way haha, I guess I'll need to put a stop to my keyboard turning habbits thanks for the tip.

LeeRain
06-25-2010, 02:13 PM
Well i make it no secret that i click and keyboard turn ( a running joke on my ventrilo is that my mouse and keyboard are the loudest ones on the market as you can hear them constantly) i have been looking in game and am a little upset that i do not have the option to speed up my turning IE a setting on to how fast my guy turns when i press the turn button. A sensitivity setting is avialable in a large vareity of other games and it's lacking in wow has me looking into writing an addon to try and get the functionality.

Sindorf
06-29-2010, 08:43 AM
Actually had to register to comment on this one since it kinda hits home. Noone has accused me of it in-game but some friends and family have seen it and have tried to help me. There was an intervention meeting... messy affair... I can stop anytime I want...
I hate to think I am the only one who does this, but perhaps I am. I am a convenience-turner. My main is my tree (Sorry, Aliena, but there's nothin' like a tree for raid heals! j/k) and I use Vuhdo for defensive casting, mouse button/modifier combos for offensive. This means a fair portion of my time is spent with my mouse-clicks being used for casting rather than movement. Depending on the situation and whichever hand is not busy I use either method of turning. Oh, and it's not really a mouse, but rather a trackball. Don't even CONSIDER trying to take my trackball away.
Want a scary image? When I started playing in vanilla, I was a clicker and ARROW-BUTTON-TURNER!
I guess my point is, imo, to be truly flexible it is best to train yourself to do either one instinctively as situation dictates.