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Stackhouse
06-04-2010, 12:59 PM
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Bleeding+Hollow&cn=Stackhous%C3%AB

There's my armory link. I'm in my hit/exp gear because I pick up raging spirits for LK and snap threat is so essential. In addition, I'm typically 2nd tank to a Phrawd (our pally MT) and hit/exp has obvious advantages being OT.

I keep Vig glyphed for 25 HM DW fight, which I MT for but switch it out with SS and Last Stand glyphs when needed.

Our guild, Descent, is 11/12 HM 25 ICC as of last week and will be putting attempts on H LK soon.

That being said...PLEASE CRITICIZE AND ADVISE on my gear/glyphs/spec or anything else you may have an opinion on!

I'm looking for any kind of good advice or criticism drawn from REAL EXPERIENCE in raiding 25 ICC HM. Please do not reply with theory crafting and speculations if you've never, or are not currently tanking up to date, on par content. I can ask any "know it all" tank on my server for empty advice.

I'm starting this thread HERE in hopes of improving on my already considerable tanking experience from those who are tanking at a level near or above my own.

Looking forward to the flames!

Bodasafa
06-04-2010, 01:06 PM
If you were main tanking you would be better off with Pillars of Might and a 4pc tier bonus. Aside from that perhaps some slight spec/glyph changes, but those are more personal preference things.

To be honest I wouldn't change a thing. You stated you have a niche role in your guild and are set up for the task. Good tanks tailor their set up to the fights they are pitted against and what the guild needs. Who could ask for more?

Stackhouse
06-04-2010, 01:24 PM
Thanks Boda =)

Griff
06-04-2010, 01:49 PM
For a threat set, you might want to switch the stam enchant on your gloves out for armsman. The 2% isn't a huge bump all things considered but its a bump nontheless and 2% is 2%.

I'm also curious about your spec. Do you find you get alot of use out of 2/2 Safeguard over Imp. Revenge?

Supermassive
06-04-2010, 01:55 PM
For a threat set, you might want to switch the stam enchant on your gloves out for armsman. The 2% isn't a huge bump all things considered but its a bump nontheless and 2% is 2%.

I'm also curious about your spec. Do you find you get alot of use out of 2/2 Safeguard over Imp. Revenge?
I imagine he's using that for LK.
You safegaurd the Tank on LK and eat the melee/ reduce the 50K hit.

Faction
06-04-2010, 04:28 PM
You will probably need some points in improved demo shout if you are tanking horrors (With Shield Wall, last stand and taunt glyphs). Stack all ilvl 277 stuff for stamina to live through 2 x shrieks from raging spirits and also absorbing vile spirits.

Having off-sets for threat and all is just gravy. Nothing is even remotely close to H:LK 25 in difficulty in ICC, so just faceroll 11/12 and plan only for progression.

Dreadski
06-04-2010, 05:59 PM
I'd go and grab the 4p with the shoulders and chest if you have the sanctified (try to get some heroic tokens, no?) and couple them with the legs you have on for LK or even Pillars. With the 20% buff you may even be better off with the greater armor value.

Stackhouse
06-05-2010, 04:09 PM
Thanks guys. I've been trying to get my hands on some heroic tokens but our guild uses EPGP and I'm getting pwned by Hunter/Shaman Officers with vastly more EP. Definitely once I get some 277 Sanct. I plan on moving to 4 piece and pillars for legs. In preparation for H LK I need to....

Glyph Last stand, SW, and Taunt...
Respec to progression including Imp. Demo. Shout etc....

Anything else you can think of?
If I'm OT/Safeguarding/Vile Spirit tanking is 4 piece with pillars best set up or just stack 277 stam. pieces?

I GAVE YOU A TOPIC...TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES

Bodasafa
06-05-2010, 08:36 PM
Thanks guys. I've been trying to get my hands on some heroic tokens but our guild uses EPGP and I'm getting pwned by Hunter/Shaman Officers with vastly more EP. Definitely once I get some 277 Sanct. I plan on moving to 4 piece and pillars for legs. In preparation for H LK I need to....

Glyph Last stand, SW, and Taunt...
Respec to progression including Imp. Demo. Shout etc....

Anything else you can think of?
If I'm OT/Safeguarding/Vile Spirit tanking is 4 piece with pillars best set up or just stack 277 stam. pieces?

I GAVE YOU A TOPIC...TALK AMONGST YOURSELVES

I would wager the 4pc + Pillars for either role are probably the best set up. Your getting a new CD of roughly 14K+ every minute at your disposal. I'm not sure the minor jump in stam from the off set items would win out.

The difference is as you stated, pretty much in the spec.

Crommi
06-06-2010, 03:56 AM
Enraged Shambling horrors hit for ~80k, so it's more about getting fast dispels from hunters and then using combination of stuns and cooldowns when they perma-enrage at 20%. You only need to tank 1-2 horrors while LK tank handles ghouls as well, so threat is not an issue even if you go with more defensive talent spec.

gacktt
06-06-2010, 05:00 AM
Our DK usually holds shambling horrors when enraged and he never really dies from it even if our hunters are all asleep and don't dispel. I'm pretty sure they only hit for maybe 50k with enrage and only 1 shots you if they frenzy after a set amount of time AND stack enrage.

What's with the bracers? having extremely bad luck on 10 and 25? Use 277 val ring and onyxia 245 ring.

Crommi
06-06-2010, 06:04 AM
Our DK usually holds shambling horrors when enraged and he never really dies from it even if our hunters are all asleep and don't dispel. I'm pretty sure they only hit for maybe 50k with enrage and only 1 shots you if they frenzy after a set amount of time AND stack enrage.
We're talking about Lich King 25HC and they most definately one-shot tank with enrage.
Here's couple takes from deathlog where either tranq. shot came too late or stun missed:

[21:27:29.615] Shambling Horror Shockwave Crommi 75041 (O: 3656, A: 6400)
[21:41:04.485] Shambling Horror hits Crommi 75041 (O: 3505, A: 12340)
[21:56:59.804] Shambling Horror hits Crommi 43600 (O: 45318)
[22:32:41.294] Shambling Horror hits Crommi 47649 (O: 41029)

gacktt
06-06-2010, 07:22 AM
We're talking about Lich King 25HC and they most definately one-shot tank with enrage.
Here's couple takes from deathlog where either tranq. shot came too late or stun missed:

You sure he didn't already have frenzy at the time?

In 4 months of tanking horrors in 10/25/25h I have never seen a horror cast shockwave within 10 seconds of an enrage, but they certainly will shockwave with the 100% damage frenzy effect.

Crommi
06-06-2010, 08:28 AM
WoL is not very user-friendly to find out stuff like that, but seems like Shockwave and last example might have been combination of Frenzy + Enrage, but 2 and 3 were just plain Enrage.

Edit: Anyways, we're getting bit sidetracked here, proper place to discuss encounter mechanics would be LK topic in strategy section.

gacktt
06-06-2010, 09:08 AM
If he hits normally for 80k on enrage, then that would mean the moment he frenzies he would also hit for 80k, and 160k with both up, and 240k shockwaves with everything up, which is rather unlikely as I have never seen that happen.

dgen
06-06-2010, 11:50 AM
Thanks guys. I've been trying to get my hands on some heroic tokens but our guild uses EPGP and I'm getting pwned by Hunter/Shaman Officers with vastly more EP. Definitely once I get some 277 Sanct. I plan on moving to 4 piece and pillars for legs. In preparation for H LK I need to....

Glyph Last stand, SW, and Taunt...
Respec to progression including Imp. Demo. Shout etc....

Anything else you can think of?
If I'm OT/Safeguarding/Vile Spirit tanking is 4 piece with pillars best set up or just stack 277 stam. pieces?

I GAVE YOU A TOPIC...TALK AMONGST YOURSELVESI will try to be brief (and blunt), as best possible, but will probably fail with the 'being brief' side of things.

First of all, your Officers are retarded. You are not going to down LK 25 Heroic without tanks in full iLevel 277 tier gear(at least) + Pillars, with ease, prior to the ~ 25% ICC buff. It will not happen. The ICC buff adds to Health, not Armor.

4pc acts as an amazing CD, and used with Last Stand can act as one of our best on-cast 'saves.' - if your Officers aren't focusing on gearing tanks first, you might as well not raid until they are(dem brick walls start to hurt your head after a while, trust me, I know).

Why is your focus set on threat in a lot of what you've posted? 1 Misdirect / ToT from each of the Hunters' & Rogues' in the raid should suffice - so long as you're not slacking with gaining threat yourself, in conjunction with MDs, your threat will be fine. Make sure the assigned Hunter and/or Rogue is doing their job for the entire duration of the threat redirection too.

If you're looking to literally min-max (I'm not quoting you, but you seem to want to have a best chance at a kill), I'd suggest changing both professions to Leatherworking & Jewelcrafting. You get max EHP, and since you're OTing during the Lich King encounter, +70SR to Bracers (combined with +20SR on Cloak & +25SR / 30 Stamina on Helm) is your bread and butter for this scenario in particular, to give an example.

Spec and Glyphs are 100% unfaultable for LK 25 H, though I thought I'd mention that I agree with everything posted above regarding the change you've recently made. Safeguard carries Warriors so hard for LK 25 H.

Glyph of Vigilance is pretty rubbish to be honest. As I mentioned earlier, 1 Misdirect / ToT from each of the Hunters' & Rogues' in raid will suffice so long as you are at your computer.

Usually I would have listed your Race as the first 'thing to change' in my criticism, but for LK specifically, I think Draenei is best LOL, bloody spacegoats(someone correct me if I'm wrong).

Don't listen to the person who advised that you change to Armsman for a threat set - threat is never that necessary, as aforementioned.

I was going to mention the respec to 5/5 Demo, but you've already got that covered.

To conclude, granted your Officers are willing to pull their heads in regarding the progression gearing (in terms of giving you Prot tokens over Hunters and Shamans), you should be expecting a kill before the release of the 25% buff, so long as Hunters and those assigned to Snares/Stuns are onto it.

Good luck, you're attitude is one of the best I've seen in those asking for help via. these forums.

Mert
06-06-2010, 06:11 PM
The ICC buff adds to Health, not Armor.

Since Armor's contribution to mitigation is based on your max health, the benefits to each cancel each other out. Or, in other words, Armor contributes the same amount to EH before the buff as after it.

For tanking the adds, a decent amount of Armor isn't necessarily a bad idea - their melee and Shockwaves are mitigated by Armor as well as Attack Power debuffs. However, since Armor doesn't mitigate the Shrieks or Vile Spirit explosions, I'd suggest it's not wise to go for a full Armor set if you're going to be handling those elements of the fight as well.

Dgen's post is generally spot on in most regards but I just wanted to clear up the misconception that Stam gets more beneficial than Armor as the buff increases as that is not the case (except in niche moments like Last Stand / Ardent Defender / Warrior 4pc).

dgen
06-07-2010, 07:12 AM
Since Armor's contribution to mitigation is based on your max health, the benefits to each cancel each other out. Or, in other words, Armor contributes the same amount to EH before the buff as after it.

For tanking the adds, a decent amount of Armor isn't necessarily a bad idea - their melee and Shockwaves are mitigated by Armor as well as Attack Power debuffs. However, since Armor doesn't mitigate the Shrieks or Vile Spirit explosions, I'd suggest it's not wise to go for a full Armor set if you're going to be handling those elements of the fight as well.

Dgen's post is generally spot on in most regards but I just wanted to clear up the misconception that Stam gets more beneficial than Armor as the buff increases as that is not the case (except in niche moments like Last Stand / Ardent Defender / Warrior 4pc).Hey, can we please hug?

Mert
06-07-2010, 08:10 AM
For you, any time ;)

/hug

Cartz
06-07-2010, 08:18 AM
Since Armor's contribution to mitigation is based on your max health, the benefits to each cancel each other out. Or, in other words, Armor contributes the same amount to EH before the buff as after it.

I think he was more referring to the fact that he won't get any more armor unless the officers in his guild modify their gear strategy. The fact that this guy has been a part of 17 heroic wing boss kills and hasn't seen a token is a bit of a problem. The gloves and chest with bonus armor are both set pieces, so if he wants to maximize his armor, he needs two tokens.

'Loot Systems' and 'Fairness' be damned, you need to impress upon your officers that you need to be fed some tokens over the two classes who see very marginal improvements from 277 tier loot.

Mert
06-07-2010, 08:42 AM
Well yes, in that case I think his Officers might do well to be a little more flexible in their gear distribution, especially where tier tokens are concerned. Without wishing to get too much off-topic, this is one of the reasons I came to dislike EP/GP - while initially it seemed a good and fair way of doing things (and I'd actually recommend it for a guild that isn't focussed on bleeding edge progression), it inherently sees no difference between your MT and the raggedy DPS tagalong who comes to all the raids but never quite performs as well as the others in his class. See also: Suicide Kings. A zero sum system isn't automatically better but it does tend to organically favour tanks in the long term simply because tank loot rarely goes for more than the minimum, save the occasional amazing yet incredibly rare drop.