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Crawl
06-01-2010, 01:57 PM
Hello all,

I need to clear the air on a run I had last night. I have been a warrior tank for about 2 years and would never change. I like being in control of a run and what gets pulled and when. (well pugs may not let you) Running a full 5 man and not have anyone die feels good as a tank. Ok so now to my point.

I have rolled a new toon and he is now 80. He is a warlock (/gasp) I love my warrior and is still my main, but the warlock has been fun to dps. I was in a heroic 5 man HoR last night and there was a 80 warrior tank leading the group. I asked for vig as soon as we got in with no reply. First wave of adds came I pulled aggro and took some damage, no big deal. Second wave came, same out come. We made it to the first boss and I took threat from him and had to back off. Now I was only doing just under 2k damage for the run so far on recount. I can do almost 5k in a 5 man. So backing off I dont mind but vig would have aloud me to hit a bit harder. I started to hit harder after the first boss and when I seen I was only doing 2k damage. Only after asking for vig 2 more times in whispers then once in party chat. To have him reply "I dont need Vig". I then said, What sorry I have a 80 warrior tank and vig is my bread and butter. I then was directed to go to Tank Spot and read up on warrior tanking as I have work to do as a tank then.

This is where my question is, Am I wrong? Have in the last 2 months of me playing my warlock and only loggin in to tank heroics and ICC have warrior tanks changed?

I tank ICC 10man with a pally and I out threat him on the first boss in ICC everytime(to the point he quit trying to out threat me).

If im wrong please let me know. If im right please let that tank know. Many of us warrior tanks use this site for help when we need it but I dont think im wrong in saying he needed vig. I for one will never get rid of vig I find it a great tool for boss fights and group pulls.

If I have missed a post some where that says we dont need it please show me the link so I can do some reading and see what im doing wrong.

Petninja
06-01-2010, 02:09 PM
I forget to use Vig fairly often, to no real consequence. That warrior needed vig. You were pulling agro :P. That being said it's one talent point and it makes it a world easier for me to toss it on a healer when kiting oozes, so I'm glad it's there.

Aggathon
06-01-2010, 02:51 PM
I cannot fathom why any warrior tank wouldn't take vigilance. Clearly he did need it. Where on this site is he reading that he doesn't need it?

Crawl
06-01-2010, 03:05 PM
I cannot fathom why any warrior tank wouldn't take vigilance. Clearly he did need it. Where on this site is he reading that he doesn't need it?

THANK YOU, I thought I was going nuts. I really hope he comes back and see's this as its something he needs. I hate to call him out.

MellvarTank
06-01-2010, 03:05 PM
Yeah.... Vig is handy.... and let's face it: If you have someone peaking around 12k in a heroic you can't catch him for threat. (I have had this happen) so Vig basically reduces the damage he takes in the 2 hits it takes him to kill something. On a boss, he couldn't touch me... but trash is a different story.

Vig makes life easier, and generally serves to keep people alive. I have tanked with under-geared tanks in ICC by using cross-vigilance to reduce the incoming damage without issue. Not taking that talent is rediculous. Glyphing it is a generally bad from a survival standpoint (more useful glyphs), but from a threat standpoint...

dgen
06-01-2010, 05:25 PM
It's a free 10% threat, why wouldn't you take Vigilance? That's an approximate ~ 110k damage potential from certain classes, and that's not even counting their personal threat dumps.

Whoever was in your heroic was obviously frothing at the mouth, and needs to stop dreaming, and start theorycrafting.

SeptimX
06-01-2010, 08:08 PM
vigilance is needed, especially when my dk friend was out threat ing me, hehe... our healer suggested putting vig on highest dps guy, so onto dk friend it goes...

i also notice the warlock (less than 4k gs) PUG last night needing it, he was probably fresh lock, still gearing up, and almost every mob wants to eat him...

Cräzykiller
06-02-2010, 01:00 AM
I quite like Vig... Especially when the other tank is also a warrior. We both get 3% damage reduction! And a taunt thats never on cool down for when things get sticky! Why do people think 3% damage reduction is useless? I'm sure thats fits into the EHP thing somehow...

Dreadski
06-02-2010, 05:58 AM
Holy crap you ran across a bad WoW player who doesn't know he's bad?!!!? When does that ever happen? Seriously, take what random pugs tell you with a grain of salt...from all the context of your post it seems you knew he was wrong from the beginning. No need to second guess on that. You just got a shitty tank in a random. Happens to the best of us.

manicus
06-02-2010, 06:14 AM
Oh HAI! If you don't get vig, learn to watch omen.

You got a bad tank, but thats still no excuse to draw aggro from the tank with lolaoe. Adjust to the group, or find another group.

Ixyra
06-02-2010, 10:03 AM
thats a bad tank...as an icc geared warrior tank vigilance goes on the person that needs it - aka someone who is doing decent damage and still pulls
now i havent been tanking for two years, but what i know with vigilance is that it goes on the person who is pulling aggro the most. someone else could be close, but if they dont pull they arent a problem. unless of course there is no one else pulling haha
i just put it on the person who is pulling from me - before the instance i take my best guess and put it usually on casters like mages or warlocks, but ill put it on a well geared ret pally any day over those other two.
point being - if youre pulling, you get vigilance. that tank was stupid and cocky. unless there was someone else in the party pulling, it shouldve gone to you, who was obviously the one taking aggro with minimal to zero effort

Griff
06-02-2010, 12:05 PM
There's just no reason NOT to use it. Watch the first pull or two, see who's doing the most threat and vigilance them. Or that undergeared clothy healer.

There's not reagent, it doesn't have a cooldown..not to mention the damage reduction component.

Metasynaptic
06-02-2010, 06:40 PM
Oh HAI! If you don't get vig, learn to watch omen.

You got a bad tank, but thats still no excuse to draw aggro from the tank with lolaoe. Adjust to the group, or find another group.


Yes. Why soar like an eagle? Let's play down to the level of turkeys.

Martie
06-02-2010, 07:31 PM
Yes. Why soar like an eagle? Let's play down to the level of turkeys.
Trying to soar in a chicken coop leads to bumped heads.

A good tank doesn't really mind predictable overaggroing, though. If you know what you are doing and he knows what he's doing, taunt+aggro dump helps him.

Metasynaptic
06-02-2010, 08:22 PM
I have a 74 fire mage and I invariably top meters on dungeons. Trash packs make for good aoe. As the living bombs start popping, my damage shoots through the roof. Anything that survives is usually out for my blood.

If the tank is epic bad, I've reduced myself to single target fireball/scorch/etc to keep the peace, mostly so I don't have to wait another 30 minutes in the queue... but seriously... asking someone to pwn less in my view is a silly point of view. How about the tank suck less?

As a warrior tank, I don't mind if I have one mob stripped. It's usually a trivial taunt to pick it back up, and if the healer is vaguely decent they can cover off on any damage.

Bodasafa
06-02-2010, 08:27 PM
Vigilance is well worth the 1 talent point. There is absolutely no reason not to take it as a PvE Tank.

/thread.

nserafini
06-02-2010, 09:16 PM
Vig is a " lay up " ; set it and forget it.

As more pugs out-threat him he will learn. Or not.

Cräzykiller
06-02-2010, 11:23 PM
As a tank, I don't really have problems getting threat even with high DPS peeps. So I put Vig on the other tank so he gets 3% dmg reduction. And if the other tank is a warrior he puts it on me? Is 3% dmg reduction not important? I see a lot of people only talking about putting it on a person w/ high DPS.

MellvarTank
06-03-2010, 08:03 AM
As a tank, I don't really have problems getting threat even with high DPS peeps. So I put Vig on the other tank so he gets 3% dmg reduction. And if the other tank is a warrior he puts it on me? Is 3% dmg reduction not important? I see a lot of people only talking about putting it on a person w/ high DPS.

In a taunt sensitive fight this can be very bad if the other tank is not a warrior as you cap his threat and risk pulling the boss back to you. Also: Overheals are at an all time high... so the 3% reduction in damage is not really that important.

Bodasafa
06-03-2010, 08:04 AM
3% damage reduction on a tank is a drop in the bucket in ICC, in my opinion, all your doing is gimping their threat. I would only put it on another tank if I needed infinite taunts, which dose not happen very often.

Kyoki
06-03-2010, 08:53 AM
Clearly since you were gimping your dps and that tank was still having problems holding your thread he is wrong. Vig is an amazing talent and i always use it when it raids. In heroics however im extremely lazy and since nobody really pulls off me anyways i often forget about it. If a dps asks or pulls threat then i will toss it on him and i would never tell somebody no. Bad pug tanks are bad and ones like him will never learn. The only time i ever put it on another tank is for festergut? i always always confuse the two when im tanking the slimes just so i always have a taunt available if needed.

Petninja
06-03-2010, 12:05 PM
3% damage reduction on a tank is a drop in the bucket in ICC, in my opinion, all your doing is gimping their threat. I would only put it on another tank if I needed infinite taunts, which dose not happen very often.

3% damage is about the same as getting an additional, i dunno, 15k more armor for me. How is that not awesome? I'll tell you how. It doesn't stack with any other 3% you get from somewhere else. So if you have a disc priest with renewed hope talented the 3% does pretty much nothing, otherwise it's probably awesome.

Bodasafa
06-03-2010, 01:38 PM
3% damage is about the same as getting an additional, i dunno, 15k more armor for me. How is that not awesome? I'll tell you how. It doesn't stack with any other 3% you get from somewhere else. So if you have a disc priest with renewed hope talented the 3% does pretty much nothing, otherwise it's probably awesome.

I guess my original statement and your follow up are perceptions on both our parts. Might be interesting to see some actual math put to it.

Aggathon
06-03-2010, 02:25 PM
If the 3% was additive maybe that would be true, but I'm fairly certain that is inacurate. ~4k armor I think is ~3% reduction (but it depends on your DRs). But that's a flat reduction.

Looking further (note smaller number here = better since it's in the denominator):

(1-.7)*(1-.03) = .291
(1-.73) = .27

So actually 3% more reduction to armor is better than 3% more reduction from vigilance buffs and the like. Remember, vig does not stack with BoSanc or Renewed Hope.

Doing some more napkin math:
.27 = .3*(1-x)
.9 = (1-x)
-.1 = -x
.1 = x

Therefore to equal a 3% increase in armor, an additional buff that is multiplicative (like all damage reduction effects are) would need to be about a 10% reduction, assuming no other effects.

It's still an effin' awesome talent though.

Petninja
06-03-2010, 06:29 PM
If the 3% was additive maybe that would be true, but I'm fairly certain that is inacurate. ~4k armor I think is ~3% reduction (but it depends on your DRs). But that's a flat reduction.

Looking further (note smaller number here = better since it's in the denominator):

(1-.7)*(1-.03) = .291
(1-.73) = .27

So actually 3% more reduction to armor is better than 3% more reduction from vigilance buffs and the like. Remember, vig does not stack with BoSanc or Renewed Hope.

Doing some more napkin math:
.27 = .3*(1-x)
.9 = (1-x)
-.1 = -x
.1 = x

Therefore to equal a 3% increase in armor, an additional buff that is multiplicative (like all damage reduction effects are) would need to be about a 10% reduction, assuming no other effects.

It's still an effin' awesome talent though.

15k was probably a little overzealous. The point for me was that I'm not in "super best gear evar" and I could pretty easily cap out my armor with another 9k. That would be less than a 3% increase. I mentioned that it didn't stack with other 3% buffs, and used the disc priest talent as an example. Renewed hope gives 3% reduction to the whole raid when you cast shield. However, if you don't have a disc priest and you're not BoSancing the target of vig then you've just applied a 3% damage reduction to someone. If it were on my tank it would be equal to a ton of armor. Unless it applies after armor it should be worth more than 3% armor reduction since it works on spells too.

Edit: I probably should clarify. I don't expect to see another 9k armor on my toon. I'm just mentioning that for that amount I'll get less than 3% reduction from armor.

Is armor applied before other reduction effects? I don't see why it would be, but mechanics are mechanics and I've never bothered testing it. Maybe I should.

Cräzykiller
06-03-2010, 07:56 PM
So is Vig worth putting on tanks as long as it doesn't gimp their threat or what because of the 3% dmg reduction?

Aggathon
06-03-2010, 09:02 PM
A little more napkin math to show you how much armor vigilance is worth.

At 65% reduction from armor:
(1-.65)(1-.03) = .3395
(1-.3395) = .6605 reduction from armor needed.

.6605 armor reduction = 32363 armor
.65 armor reduction = 30893 armor

therefore if you have 65% armor reduction, or around 30893 armor, then vigilance represents the equivalent of a 1470 armor increase.

If you have 70% armor reduction (38815 armor) then you'd need an equivalent of 70.9% reduction in armor which is 40523, so vigilance is worth an equivalent of 1708 armor.

So actually since vigilance is a constant, it's actually worth more armor the more you have (since armor has DRs) but it actually is a smaller reduction in damage done (.9% vs 1.05%).

So yes, it's good, and if there is no negative to putting it on another tank and you don't have the 3% reduction from somewhere else, yes, it is absolutely beneficial to put it on another tank.


Edit: all damage reduction effects are multiplied at the same time, it really doesn't matter which comes first.

Say you just start with the 3% reduction from vigilance. Say the incoming it would be 100k raw damage. Now you're only taking 97k raw damage. Now add in the 70% reduction from armor(97k*.3), and you're now taking 29.1k damage.

Now say you start with the 70% reduction from armor, same incoming damage, you take 30k damage. Now add in the 3% from vigilance and you get 30k*.97 so 29.1k damage.

It's all multiplicative, so it doesn't matter which one comes first. The associative property of mathematics holds true again!