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CARAMON1
05-26-2010, 08:53 PM
Hi again,

Wrote prior Post asking for advice. Was approx 34k HP then and since then have Gained 2.5 k via Corroded Skeleton Key and few Stam Gems etc . Added 2-3 Stam Enchants. Still keeping Avoidance idealism in play.


Just thought I'd post again and give update of how far Caramon has got so far in ICC - 10.

He has gained The Corroded Skeleton key and swapped with Black Heart. Only other Item change was The Ashen band of Courage instead of prior ring which I cant mind. Stuck a few extra stamina Gems on. Still not enchanted all Gear correctly as some would desire. Nothing has dropped for me in ICC and Key was for 60 EoFrost and got Ashen band of Courage cos Reputation went to Friendly via ICC attempts.

Been into ICC 10 maybe 5-6 times now. Not bad Boss kill ratio. Raids lasted maybe 3 hours each max . Every excursion caused at least 1 Boss death. Tonight we went through the 1st 6 Bosses with only I think 1 death-Wipe. Me and Tipke shared MT or OT roles as we how we felt at time.

Have not watched any Tankspot Videos on Bosses. Do not use any Macros (apart from "Taunt from me " when Warriors gotta count Debuffs.

Use a mouse to manually target and click Icons, Use Keyboard to move via Arrow Keys and Numpad to Assign Kill Order - Skull Ornage Blue Star aka SOBS...nice and simple. Move Skull onto next target as prior enemy dies to focus DPS. Kill Orders help us Warriors, and helps Raid .

But I do read Boss Tactics add on as I come to a new Boss(Can be read on same screen easily). You can use Ctrl+C to copy approx 2 lines of text at a time from Boss Tacs and use Ctrl+V to paste into Raid chat. Tips can be linked from same place if the Raid wants extra info or we have doubts on something. Everything you need to know is there and how to play against every Boss. Listening to a fellow Raid member helps also.

Deadly Boss Mod I use tolink us all the Raid Bosses Skills and Abilities as they arise and even showing us Stacking Debuffs for all of us to see as they come up. (Simple few clicks of a few buttons to setup each Boss afore you even try ICC 1st time is all that is needed.)

The Raid Team from the Guild was fun, no pressure, and full of lovely people. We share ideas as we play, and are a easy going , open minded bunch of people. The same people werent on every Raid. Not all were above 5k Gear Score. We are NOT die hard Raiders.

3 x Lord Marrowgar
1 x Lady Deathwhisper
1 x Gunship Battle
1 x Deathbringer
2 x Festergut
2 x Rotface
1 x Valithria Dreamwalker

ICC , like any other Raid Instance , isnt based on Gear levels, but SKill 50% , Talent Tree Skills Combinations 25% and Gear last 25 %.Caramon was under 5k Gearscore all through it. Main Tanked them all at some point. No outlandish extra healing required. Other Tank/(s) also learned as we went.

Used Recount to link his Heals Taken and Damage Taken , nothing amiss.

Basically more Avoidance than Stamina Warriors do cope fine. Here is my current link:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shattered+Halls&n=Caramon


As real life permits I hope to have MT/OT them all with not much aleration. Time will tell.

Keep you posted,

Caramon

Dreadski
05-27-2010, 04:27 AM
Congrats on your progress.



Used Recount to link his Heals Taken and Damage Taken , nothing amiss.

Basically more Avoidance than Stamina Warriors do cope fine. Here is my current link:

http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Shattered+Halls&n=Caramon


As real life permits I hope to have MT/OT them all with not much aleration. Time will tell.


? You do realize you've gained 15% more health and your healers heal you for 15% more the entire time, this week 20% right? Also, how are you an avoidance tank still? You've gemmed 8 parry and 30 dodge rating, hardly 1% gained from it, even less with Chill of the Throne counted in.

Loganisis
05-27-2010, 06:54 AM
Mellvar said it best:


Let's put it this way: World First Arthas kill -> Tanks were geared for EH. End of story.

Bodasafa
05-27-2010, 07:28 AM
I have to agree with other posters Caramon. You had lots of good advice in your other thread that you did not follow (why you felt the need to double post and start a new one, I'm not sure?) . In the current game gemming for avoidance is wrong. Its been proven time and time again EH(Effective Health , Armor + Stamina) is the proper way to gear/gem for success right now.

Listen to your fellow tanks, they know.

Dreadski
05-27-2010, 07:43 AM
Particularly enjoyed the helm and shoulder enchants. Either you're using the old exalted Aldor one or you haven't even maxed Hodir rep yet. Either way you're better off farming random BG's for 2 hours and getting the 30 stam enchant.

Selene
05-27-2010, 07:55 AM
Oh wow.

Entirely wrong Helm enchant, and gem in that socket. Never use an Orange color gem for a tank. Get the Argent Crusade enchant.

Work up your Hodir rep for the shoulder enchant or get the pvp enchant.

Cloak would have been a better upgrade than the key. Black Heart & Glyph are a viable combo for a very long time in ICC.

Spend some gold and get the 245 crafted bracers made.

Get those gloves enchanted.

Never gem for pure dodge, if you are going to gem for dodge, you use Dodge/Stam.

Get your blacksmithing up for those 2 extra sockets, that's 60 Stam you are missing.

nserafini
05-27-2010, 08:01 AM
I don't get this post. It's good to see you are progressing but are you looking for help ?

And just a suggestion, but re-inventing the wheel isn't worth it. Go for EH.

Loganisis
05-27-2010, 10:04 AM
I don't get this post. It's good to see you are progressing but are you looking for help ?

And just a suggestion, but re-inventing the wheel isn't worth it. Go for EH.

He's a strong advocate of avoidance and this is showing off that with a 15/20% ICC buff you don't have to have the best setup. Which is true - there's a 10man that downed Morrowgar in all blues @ the 15% buff.

However the point isn't that avoidance is bad - it's that EH is better. Enchanting/gemming your gear in a sub-optimal way just limits the ceiling of contribution to the raid you can reach.

nserafini
05-27-2010, 10:40 AM
Understood, but I guess this is more of a theorycraft post ( why I was wondering where the help ? was ) ....

Dreadski
05-27-2010, 10:46 AM
Nah not theorycrafting, I'd imagine this is an in-yo-face post. Even though he only took a small amount of the wealth of excellent advice given to him, he was still able to survive. But then no where does he mention all of this success was achieved with major raidwide buffs in place.

nserafini
05-27-2010, 11:03 AM
Did I get FACED ?

Dreadski
05-27-2010, 11:47 AM
Did I get FACED ?

Um, no. He faced himself, if anything. He proved zero other than you can enter the raid with 15 or 20% more everything in sub-par gems and enchants and still have some success. And Undergeared (Gevlon's Blue raid) already proved that in nearly every raid instance now.

Bodasafa
05-27-2010, 01:19 PM
Its the old saying.

"Just because you can do something, doesn't make it right."

CARAMON1
05-27-2010, 02:02 PM
Hello all,

I am not making a thread here to prove a point to you guys. But the last 2 threads I have made have been absolutely torn to shreds by you guys. You expect every Gear Item to be Gemmed perfectly and Enchanted to precision. It is your way , or no way.

I was making a point to the loads of people who post here to ask " What can my Tank do? Where can he Raid?" . The answer to those questions are not black and white. Gear has far far too much emphasis put on it. When is said it is 25% of your characters whole play - I am NOT lying. Blizzard has stated those words in 1 of the Official manuals from Burning Crusade. I'm trying to maybe at least open 1 persons eyes who is scared to post here in case the get torn to shreds.

Also if you read my previous Post....Examine my Tank , Disect , Advise...more than 500 times it was read. I took on board some of your guys advice because I simply DO NOT have the time to become Exalted in everything , or raise my Blacksmith skill - It fecking bores me to tears. ALso more importantly I'm a father and WoW is 1 of my pastimes.

I Raid and Tank 100% of the time for the last 3+years. Long ago I saw I could not keep up with my Gear I constantly get. Why bloody bother Enchanting and Gemming it when more will come along that night or next day. Waste of time and money to be frank.

From conversations and reading Websites ICC sounded...ooohh... scary..wow. Having done it 5-6 times now, it is a great graphical Instance and well achievable to many players with not "Perfect Gear".

2nd Last thing , I question everything and I am not Big headed or a show off. I love to help people , why must I explain my myself.?

Dreador , ?

" Nah not theorycrafting, I'd imagine this is an in-yo-face post. Even though he only took a small amount of the wealth of excellent advice given to him, he was still able to survive. But then no where does he mention all of this success was achieved with major raidwide buffs in place. "

What Worldwide Buffs are you bloody talking about ? You are a glass half empty type mate. Crack a smile. Perhaps some players can out tank you with less. Or you believe that to be impossible also?

I dont want to get into a arguement, but I am perfectly within my rights to stand up against multiple mocking. Kind of lowered my faith in this website.....

In a Raid if all players can achieve 75% of their playing capacity. Itll be a success. 50% SKill, 25% Talent Tree, 25% Gear. Blizzard based their Raids on this.... ask em .

"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."


"Unhappy is the fate of one who tries to win his battles and succeed in his attacks without cultivating the spirit of enterprise; for the result is waste of time and general stagnation. Hence the saying: The enlightened ruler lays his plans well ahead; the good general cultivates his resources."


Gear aint it all,



Caramon

Bodasafa
05-27-2010, 02:47 PM
What Worldwide Buffs are you bloody talking about ? You are a glass half empty type mate. Crack a smile. Perhaps some players can out tank you with less. Or you believe that to be impossible also?

The ICC buff that increases every month now up to 20%.

Listen were not trying to "tear you down". But when you post false information that has been proven on this site we have to call you on it. Just cause you can tank some stuff in ICC with less than optimal gear/enchants/gems/un-maxed professions, dose not mean you should.

People come here to find the best way to do something. Not the "what can I get by with and have my raid pick up my slack" way to do something.

CARAMON1
05-27-2010, 03:39 PM
Bodasafa (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?1644-Bodasafa)

I am not posting false information. I am posting on behalf of those who have less time on game. Weaker Gear. I do not mind being scorned at.
The statement "what can I get by with and have my raid pick up my slack" way to do something. Implies again that I must be relying on others to get me through. Does that mean the Best geared dont slack because their Gear/Gem/Enchant Balance outweighs the other 75% of a characters Skill + Tree , or because they best Geared know everything ...many get Gear due to others running Raids..with no clue about wtf they are doing .

Why dont you guys make a thread showing minimum Warrior Tank setup for ICC ? Reasons WHy also. That would show people who come here an efficient way to do something.

Means you would not have to listen to my delusional Threads :o)

Caramon

Dreadski
05-27-2010, 05:45 PM
Bodasafa (http://www.tankspot.com/member.php?1644-Bodasafa)

I am not posting false information. I am posting on behalf of those who have less time on game. Weaker Gear. I do not mind being scorned at.
The statement "what can I get by with and have my raid pick up my slack" way to do something. Implies again that I must be relying on others to get me through. Does that mean the Best geared dont slack because their Gear/Gem/Enchant Balance outweighs the other 75% of a characters Skill + Tree , or because they best Geared know everything ...many get Gear due to others running Raids..with no clue about wtf they are doing .

Why dont you guys make a thread showing minimum Warrior Tank setup for ICC ? Reasons WHy also. That would show people who come here an efficient way to do something.

Means you would not have to listen to my delusional Threads :o)

Caramon

Right here buddy ----------> http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?60155-Agg-s-Prot-War-Tanking-Guide

And further, if you really want your brain to hurt --------->http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?66564-Why-We-Do-What-We-Do-(An-in-depth-explanation-of-EHP-and-ICC-3.3.3-tanking-mechanics)

We're not posting things to prove you wrong. You were proven wrong 5 years ago when Molten Core was released. The only thing that's changed is that now in WotLK the scale has slid even further away from avoidance stacking and more toward EHP, especially since the inclusion of socket-able items. No one's here to attack you, but you ask for advice and the BEST advice has been laid out for you, item by item, talent by talent, gem by gem. By people who have completed the content you are just setting foot into, yet you are still convinced that your outdated and incorrect theories are sound.

CARAMON1
05-27-2010, 08:35 PM
Tahnks for last post Dreador,

Loved the Mechanics Thread. Learned a few things which will stand me in good stead. Thanks.
Aim for 31600 armor approx for a 65% reduction in damage is efficient.
Dont write off Avoidance.
What gets me is the whole experiment was on calculating chance of Festergut hitting a Tank 5 times in a row over 100 hits. He even says it not conclusive. The boss he speaks off I have Main Tanked him to a successful death twice. Unsure my Kill to death ratio. Only been in ICC 5-6 times.

Ending Conclusions:

When all is said and done, it is obvious from the math, the graphs, the experiences, etc. that in ICC for progression fights, EHP is the way to go. However, it is also obvious that this is not an exact science like it is with DPS. With DPS there is a lot less variability, a lot less probability involved, and the DPS charts appear far more continuous (especially since they're usually over longer time periods than 12 seconds) than the discrete nature of tank damage and healing. In the end, it comes down to what I have in my signature:

DPS is Science, Healing is Art, Tanking is Strategy.

Having experienced the Boss, I know it was a DPS race. I also know using the Trinkets equipped and Shield Wall and Block etc was vital. I lived through it with 36k Hp. If i mind I was sitting around 49k-51k mark depending on Raid buffs. I can see the figures now I have to aim for in Avoidance and Armor to be efficient. The Gear will bring that....when/if they drop. Stamina will rise...more EH.

Until then, Ill continue as I am. See where it takes me. I really do appreciate debates and I'll know when Caramon is not able to Tank the remaining bosses. That day hasnt arrived yet for me. Maybe I was lucky. Maybe we make our own luck. I can see what all you guys are showing me. I appreciate it.

Thing is we are all different. We fight with the Gear we have and the skills we have learned.

Hope someone learned something out of all this debate..........that it aint written in Stone...


Till next time,

Caramon

Bodasafa
05-27-2010, 10:36 PM
Caramon I can appreciate not having a whole lot of time to devote to the game and using the gear you have available to you.

That's not my issue with what your saying.

Preaching that using avoidance gems is any proper way to gear a tank, is false information though. It doesn't take any more time to get the right gem cut and placed than the wrong one. I'm having a hard time figuring out if your just here to troll us or you just don't get it.


Hope someone learned something out of all this debate..........that it aint written in Stone...

Actually were at the end of an expansion. All the theory craft has been proven for it. So in a sense it is written in stone. Not following the proven theories established by the community dose not make someone "special", it unfortunately makes them "uninformed".

Anyway I wish you the best.

Selene
05-27-2010, 10:46 PM
People in suboptimal gear/specs/rotations are able to get past content, because Blizzard has made it EASIER than it was when it was first put out.

redneck6979
05-28-2010, 12:42 AM
I have 2 kids a wife and work full time yet I am able to raid 8 hours per week 3 days per week in a strict 10 man guild and have 4pc T10 and frost emblem stuff. You can make it work to get the gear needed to tank it properly.

These 5-6 runs that you have ran are not bad just proves with the 15-20% buff anyone can raid ICC now. We were clearing up to the Blood Queen before the 5% buff went into effect. (everything hit like a mack truck)

What I am gathering so far from this threat is that people have given you the advice you need to successfully tank ICC and you have chosen to use some of it. Next time you are in ICC with your current gear turn the 20% buff off and see if your theory still holds up. You might, might, be able to make it up to Festergut without the buff but you wont be able to get him down with your current gear. Even if your raid out gears it and you don't. The tank will quickly become the cause of the wipe on that fight if they are not fully ready.

just my 2c worth.

PatrikL
05-28-2010, 02:01 AM
When you don't have much time to learn the thoery behind it all and dont have the time to collect the best gear it is if anything even more important to listen to advice from the people who know better.

No one is criticizing your gear and not even the fact that you didnt follow the advice given previously really. What they are saying is that even if it has worked for you in ICC it does not mean that it is the best way to do it. With the raid wide buff we get in ICC these days a lot more is forgiven than before. Some people who come here and read this thread before having read any of the stickies or previous discussions about avoidance might be lead to the wrong conclusions so threads like this will always have people pointing out "sure it might work, but it is not the best way" just to make sure those new visitors don't get it wrong from the start.

manicus
05-28-2010, 03:34 AM
I'll dismiss this as a poor trolling attempt. Someone lock the thread.

CARAMON1
05-28-2010, 05:01 AM
Let me clarify myself again ,

I am not here to wind you guys up, rip the pish, "Trolling" or "Facing" and whatever other strange words you can create to mean "This guy is wasting our time".

I have looked at Caramon and must laugh ,myself at the Orange poor Gem on my Head socket - Was skint and was just something to stick in it.

* I realise I must get my gloves enchanted.

* Shoulders will remain as they are at present because I am revered with Sons of Hodir and not exalted.

As Selene says "Cloak would have been a better upgrade than the key. Black Heart & Glyph are a viable combo for a very long time in ICC." I currently have The Black Heart, Fervour of the Frostborn , Icks Rotting Thumb to mix and match with my Glyph and Corroded Skeleton Key. I have options there to alter dodge a lot and stamina and Armor. My problem with the Black Heart is it has a chance to give HP per hit"..Not guaranteed. ( Caramon is probably wrong again here and expect another firing squad).

My Helm I added the 25% Frost and 30 stamina cos of the 30 stamina and was cheap. Rather than the only other 1 I can get from Keepers of time and that is only dodge and defense which i dont need. So feel free to laugh, but I have my reasons...Time again .

* I will alter the red dodge Gem in my Legs to a Dodge / Stamina.

I have appreciated your advice and have understood it. Hope that shows you why I have done what I did, and know how to better it .


Gear I have options to wear to alter stats

Here is what I have as backup gear and perhaps I should be wearing some of this instead.

1 Hander spares - Falrics Wrist Chopper, Lucky old SUn.

Black Spire Sabatons - Boots.

Wrynns Breastplate of Conquest requires only 1 yellow socket Gem stuck in. Stam and Dodge Gem already in and Stamina Enchanted. WIll give me +5 % as a 2 piece on devastate. The - 2 seconds of my Taunt cooldown isnt really that good cos a DPS gets my Vigilance and resets it constant anyways.

Icebound Bronze Curaisss is other spare chest.

3 spare Waist items. Stormtempered Girdle, Waistguard of the Tutot , Girdle of the Pallid Knight.

Neck spares are Warlords Depravity and Shard of the Crystal Forest .

Ring spare. Loop of the Twin Valkyre.

Cloak - Platinum Mesh Cloak spare.

113 Emblem of Triumph. 143 Gold.That is Caramon Laid Bare. I sometimes wear the reserve Gear and they are all enchantd and Gemmed decently. If something sticks out like a sore thumb to be worn instead of what I have currently, let me know. Please.

I understand that Effective Health takes away the %chance% of not being Hit by an avoidance stat because you accept you are gonna be Hit. I see the Logic in mass Health Points via Stamina stacking. I see the best way is a balance of both, I see the graph of Avoidance v 5 Hits out of 100 from Festergut..40 % is achievable.

I see where I should aim for on the Armor to be near 75% damge reduction. Any more is a waste.
http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1522&d=1272929944 (http://www.tankspot.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=1522&d=1272929944)

I understood most of that before, but we always learn every day, and I thank you for the comments given.

What I will ask and not 1 of you has even commented on it, even after almost 700 readings of my last 2 posts. The statement I made about Gear being 25% of the whole characters being. 50% beiing your skill, the last 25% being boosted by your carefully chosen Talent Tree. This is written in Dungeon Companion 2. They encourage Raiders to look beyond the Gear, to try to achieve through skill and endevour.

What do you all say on my Main Point ? That is the reason I happily Raid without worrying every day over the BEST way to gear. That is why I posted to show others that it can be done. I didnt think I needed to be crucified for it.

Respect,

Jason aka Caramon " Not Special" Just open minded.

PatrikL
05-28-2010, 05:28 AM
Caramon, I dont think anyone here disagrees with you on the statement that the success of gameplay is a combination of skill, gear, talents and whateverelese. It is just that gear is something easily discussed, but skill is not. One should alwyas strive to improve all aspects on the game if one is looking to get better.

Most people here at tankspot will value skill over gear but it is such a given thing that no one even comments on it!

I have no impression that your post was trolling and to be honest I think very few do but it doesnt mean all will agree with you. Making a post titled as a bit of a successstory while gemming for avoidance (and including a GS reference) tend to get you some comments here. Don't take it personal, try posting *anything* at some other sites and see what type of answers you get :-)

Kyoki
05-28-2010, 09:08 AM
Like PatrikL said we value skill over gear but when somebody who says their skilled refuses to accept the evidence laid out before them simply because they can do icc which has been nurfed alot with the 20% buff in suboptimal gear. Guess what i downed up to putricide this week in a pug with 2 dps who couldnt break 3k and another under 4k. Thats with the buff.

If your hear and posting stuff like this then you obviously have the time to look up the proper way to gem/enchant your gear. Not doing so and gemming for avoidance is simply being ignorant. Spend 100g and you can be exalted with the sons of hodir, dont have the money then run a few heroics. Im pretty sure you can also buy sons of hodir rep with badges aswell so their is no excuse not to be exalted with them.

Here i will answer this question again. Just because gear is only 25% doesnt mean you should ignore the gemming/gearing method that is proven to be most effective. Doing so isnt open minded its just being stupid.

"What I will ask and not 1 of you has even commented on it, even after almost 700 readings of my last 2 posts. The statement I made about Gear being 25% of the whole characters being. 50% beiing your skill, the last 25% being boosted by your carefully chosen Talent Tree. This is written in Dungeon Companion 2. They encourage Raiders to look beyond the Gear, to try to achieve through skill and endevour.

What do you all say on my Main Point ? That is the reason I happily Raid without worrying every day over the BEST way to gear. That is why I posted to show others that it can be done. I didnt think I needed to be crucified for it."

Here i will answer this question again. Just because gear is only 25% doesnt mean you should ignore the gemming/gearing method that is proven to be most effective. Doing so isnt open minded its just being stupid. I dont think anybody comes here to look for a subpar way to raid they look to see what is the most effective way. Everybody makes mistakes and gemming/gearing properly helps to reduce the chance that a wipe will occur because of said mistakes.

CARAMON1
05-28-2010, 09:19 AM
Kyoki,

I admit I have been a bit ignorant and instead of finding the answers I have drawn them from you guys via the 2 threads. The Gemming/gearing experience has caused me great time consumption and flittered away much Gold. Perhaps I will never be a devoted follower due to the role I play....stupid - yes, worry over it ?- no.

In all honesty I havent taken anything personal here. I actually respect your Website and the ones who are in the know. That was why I posted here and no where else.

I have benefited from it. I hope I havent caused any enemies. Perhaps it is time for you guys to close this thread, as people start to talk about Skilll v Gear. PatrikL says it nicely and perhaps some things are better left unsaid. :o)

Even after all this , I will never dwell on every item I wear. But I now at least know where to get everything I need should I become more tidy and a perfectionist.

Thanks for your help. Hope to post more here in future if thats okay.

Caramon


"The only people with whom you should try to get even are those who have helped you."
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don’t matter and those who matter don’t mind."

Aggathon
05-28-2010, 12:02 PM
Wow... I guess people really weren't kidding when I first wrote that that it would be quoted and misquoted for years to come...

Look, getting an optimal setup isn't hard, and I'm sorry but your brief ICC10 normal incursions are not sufficient evidence to convince me that it's okay to gem for straight dodge. If you can afford a +20 dodge gem then you can afford a +30 stam gem. If you have 2 hours to raid, then you can wander around in BGs for 2 hours to get the +30 stam/+15 resil shoulder enchant.

Does it truly matter with the 20% increased HP buff? For ICC10 normal: no, not really. Is it optimal? No.

I've avoided saying this flat out because I know a lot of people would jump down my throat, but man... forgot avoidance. Seriously, I flat out ignore it and am just happy with whatever is on my gear. Maybe without the ICC -20% dodge debuff it would matter, or if tanking mechanics were different, but they're not.

I will admit though, this does feel like a trolling attempt to me. If you actually do want to discuss it and my article more, feel free to PM me.

Dreadski
05-28-2010, 02:56 PM
Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.