PDA

View Full Version : The Weekly Marmot -- AVR & Encounter Design



Ciderhelm
05-25-2010, 01:56 AM
_QKb1rApLME

http://www.tankspot.com/snowfall/donorbanner.jpg (http://www.tankspot.com/premium.php)

Doomtroll
05-25-2010, 02:42 AM
Avr also provided a much better way of making strategies for new bosses. Rather than saying something like "5 yards around the edge of the pointy thing on the floor over there, you guys see what I mean?" you would just draw a circle around it. It wouldnt even need to stay on during the fights, it just made things so much easier to explain. And I certainly dont look forward to throwing smoke flares around once again...

About AvrE.. I agree with most of what you said, and there are only a couple of times where DBM doesnt tell you everything you need to know. AvrE might be too much, and I can see why Blizz is removing it..

Malitia
05-25-2010, 03:01 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?63640-Icecrown-Putricide-Hard

"Players with Plague Sickness are easily visible by the green disease aura that surrounds them."

Aliena
05-25-2010, 03:11 AM
And a big ole icon on your raid frames if you have them configured properly!

Pf0llz0r
05-25-2010, 03:27 AM
I would like to see another version of AVR (or something similar to it) sometime in the future that let you "paint" out strategies and such before boss fights (which will be disabled once u enter combat), kinda like Doomtroll said.

AVRE is kinda the ultimate retard addon tbh, the stuff it does is easily detected anyway and you dont need an addon telling you "this place is no good, go here instead"
BUT some things where quite usefull tho, For example on sindragosa the circle under you get under your player when get targeted by her iceblock thingy shows both the splash-radius and a timer to tell when it will hit.

I can understand why blizz want to remove this addon but painting possibilitys of AVR could still be very usefull (either an addon or as an future feature which is implemented in the game)

Just show me the cooldown on boss-abilities (read DBM) and Im a happy lock :D

badly written but at work so cant spend that much time checking my grammar/spelling

Scyla
05-25-2010, 03:29 AM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?63640-Icecrown-Putricide-Hard

"Players with Plague Sickness are easily visible by the green disease aura that surrounds them."

Owned? :D

Well the effect is not quite as visible as it could be and I find it easier to look at the raidframe (I'm using sRaidFrames, but I guess you can handle it with grid and the corner indicators or something like that I guess) to tell to whom I can pass the plague and announce it on teamspeak.

Again you need external addons to manage this and I don't know how well you can see it in the normal raidframe.

And Lore you are right, the problem is the way Blizzard designs encounters and that goes as far back as Molten Core with the masses of dispells you have to handle over to some kind of threatmeter for Vael (that was ktm if my mind serves me correctly; and yes I know you can handle it without, I also did that) and classcalltimers for Nefarian so that hunters can act the whole fight (again can be done by a stopwatch witch is again an external tool; and quite annoying for the player who is designated for the job).

The bosses made huge leaps in terms of difficulty from classic via BC to WotLK and though did the Standard UI but it never get to a level where it was not sufficant for the encoutners.

Maybe you can handle most of the situations as a damagedealer or a tank with the standard UI but as a heal it can be an nightmare (I'm assuming this because the times when I used the WoWs own UI are over by far) and I guess fights like Anub heroic can't be done by players who use the standard frames.
But even if you can raid sucessfully the standard interface the arrangement of the frames ist terrible and widespread with info displayed to huge that you don't need and info to small that is very important.

So... to wrap things up:

Do you need addons to raid successfully? Yes!
Do Blizzard designs bosses with the knowledge that players use addons? Yes!
Does AVR-E went to far? Definitely yes!
Does Blizzard rethink their interface and boss encounters? They have to!

And it is a shame that AVE (not the encounter part of the addon) is going away because it was (as I pointed out in the AVR news thread) some kind of next level stuff.

Norfolk
05-25-2010, 03:57 AM
I definitely agree with what you said. We have been able to kill bosses before without AVRE so it is merely an inconvenience to have it disabled by Blizzard. However it did show to me personally a lot of things in a very convenient way. I have to say by being a melee class there is always something annoying with the camera angle. No matter how far you zoom out I personally can't really find a comfortable distance. Too far and either there is a chandelier or longboat in front of it (yeah a frigging longboat in UP) or for mobs with small hitboxes I end standing too far away to hit them (minor inconvenience again which can be remedied by strutting around a bit). Too close and I can't see anything when everything starting from bandages causes an animation the equivalent of a Hydrogen bomb explosion.

This resulted ultimately in me toning down almost all the visual effects to minimum in order to maintain a clear visibility and greater situational awereness. Not exactly what I had in mind when I upgraded my computer tbh...

AVRE did show a lot of minor things that were a bit uncertain sometimes. For example on Rotface (an easy encounter I give you that) We did not know that the exploding goo picks the location of players when it STARTS to cast instead of finishing it. We used to group up once it started casting. AVRE showed a flaw in this by clearly informing that the danger areas were determined as soon as cast starts rather than when the Big Ooze finishes the cast. We switched to grouping up right before slime stack hits 5.

On Festergut the spore radius is much easier to read and you can spread out a bit more to avoid the malleable goos thrown by PP. Still this was more of a problem with the flashy animations covering the green impact point than the spore radius.

Looking at the Halion fight I can already feel that Blizz has tried to make the ability animations much clearer than before. Everything you need to be aware of is in plain sight. They have improved animations before. Remember Sartharion void zones being red? They were almost impossible to see sometimes in the melee pile.

I sometimes envy the overall view the ranged people get. :P

Overall AVRE helped in many gimmicky abilities to simplify them all into "danger here" with rather good visuals. If an ability has 8 lines of text and lots of conditionals in the sentence it is hard to react to it when you get it the first time. Usually you will just die while reading the description. Of course this is all about learning new bosses. After a while you will know these abilities by heart anyway.

Shame to see the addon go, but we will no doubt manage without it as well. Hopefully Blizzard will make more specific animations and clear visual clues on what is happening in the future. Halion seems like a very good example of what the future will bring.

Kiezer
05-25-2010, 04:21 AM
I wouldn't say everyone thinks you're bad a Putricide now, probably just allowing enough time to see a message and pause the movie in time to read it all before it ends :)

Holyprincess
05-25-2010, 05:00 AM
Having never used AVR i cant miss it, but the planing and drawing part would help leaps and bounds to explain what i need my raiders to do. I shut off DBM for old content i dont need it for i like to "listen" to the bosses see if i can do it the old way having never been a raider pre-BC. I dont want my hand held by the game, and the raid leader, yet as a tank i need to know everything going on with out wasting time. Avr the drawing part needs to be aloud in or come back in some form, but not go as far as to hold your hand though the whole fight.

Knighterrant81
05-25-2010, 05:42 AM
Lore, I can see where you're coming with Heroic Putricide, but healers have already been dealing with this kind of problem for a long time.

Make your raid frame show who has the plague debuff. Then run to someone who's little box doesn't have the debuff. Can't find the person on the game screen once you've selected their raid frame? Turn on nameplates, and get an addon like tidyplates and set it up to light up like a roman candle on your target.

We have the same problem with this on BQL. Some people just have a really hard time tracking down people who aren't bitten. But former healers turned shadowpriests like me never have a problem. I know exactly who has been bitten and who hasn't, and I can quickly and easily find the person who I want to bite on the game floor. (This is made even easier because my warlock buddy and I always trade bites on the same location on the floor). I've only ever been MC'd once or twice on this fight, and that is usually when someone stealth bites my target when my debuff's low.

Don't lament AVR. Get Grid or some other raid frame addon and set it up to show debuffs.

I suppose Blizzard could build this stuff into the base game so you don't need addons for it though. Sort of like how on NRB you could easily see who has poison or a burning bile debuff - they're either green or on fire!

Aberen
05-25-2010, 06:13 AM
It will be said 100 times I'm sure...AVR was bad, but had good ideas in it. Drawing tactics in realworld prefight, good, staying through the whole encounter, hand holding. Visual range circle, good, colored with a countdown timer, hand holding.

I don't mind AVR being broken.

Can I get a perma 5yd range circle pls.

Scyla
05-25-2010, 06:28 AM
...
Can I get a perma 5yd range circle pls.


Well, you can get a range circle on the minimap. I'm using Chincilla Minimap and it has this feature. I'm using it for my healing priest so I can see in which direction I have to move when someone is out of range. The downsides are that you have to zoom in so that you cant get a good look on the range and the direction arrow for your char often is in the way especially when the range for the circle is very small (~5 yards).
So not optimal for small distances but maybe an addon author can do something with the minimap but I'm not sure if it is possible to draw something on the minimap with patch 3.3.5.

Ajire
05-25-2010, 06:38 AM
Our guild debated at one point whether we we should start to use AVR or not. We chose not to, partly because we expected blizz to pull the plug on it, but more because we felt people need to learn watch out for the encounter mechanics and learn to deal with them - in fact, that is the whole point of having fun - or feeling miserable - with raiding.

And I didn't find it particular easy to use anyway.

Amamaeth
05-25-2010, 07:36 AM
Avr also provided a much better way of making strategies for new bosses. Rather than saying something like "5 yards around the edge of the pointy thing on the floor over there, you guys see what I mean?" you would just draw a circle around it. It wouldnt even need to stay on during the fights, it just made things so much easier to explain. And I certainly dont look forward to throwing smoke flares around once again...

About AvrE.. I agree with most of what you said, and there are only a couple of times where DBM doesnt tell you everything you need to know. AvrE might be too much, and I can see why Blizz is removing it..

^This pretty much. I never used AVR or AVRE, but when I heard about it (pretty much the same day they announced it's death) I was looking forward to using it, in a raid leader perspective, to quickly go over raid strategies without too much confusion on raid positioning.

Coro
05-25-2010, 07:37 AM
I agree with most everyone else. I am a raid/guild leader and I encouraged a lot of my guildies and friends to get this addon, specifically for the pre-fight explanations. I have a couple of "those guys" that just can't seem to understand my directions as I explain positioning on the boss. Obviously, it gets hard to run around and show where to stand.

For example, blood queen. Before AVR we had to do a little sit and talk (where in the middle someone would shout "LEEERROOYYY JEENKKINNS" naturally) as I explained positioning, but would always *somehow* create confusion. When we got AVR, I was able to draw circles and color code them to show who stands where. This cut down on a lot of frustration from miscommunications or understandings, and made my life as a raid leader a lot easier. I agree with others, it would be fantastic if I could somehow draw or mark spots that would "disappear" in combat. Or, if they would give us more flares that could be created with wotlk mats that would make me happy too.

EressŽa
05-25-2010, 08:09 AM
Can't find the person on the game screen once you've selected their raid frame? Turn on nameplates, and get an addon like tidyplates and set it up to light up like a roman candle on your target.

Why didn't I think of this sooner. I even already use tidyplates, but for my dpser. I've always had trouble figuring out where individuals were in the sea of people so I usually would hit them with a penance or PoM. It's time I turn on the targeting option in Vuhdo!

Knighterrant81
05-25-2010, 08:34 AM
Why didn't I think of this sooner. I even already use tidyplates, but for my dpser. I've always had trouble figuring out where individuals were in the sea of people so I usually would hit them with a penance or PoM. It's time I turn on the targeting option in Vuhdo!

Yeah I just downloaded the latest version of Tidyplates too, and it does a better job of highlighting your target now, at least, in my opinion.

Trexokor
05-25-2010, 08:40 AM
I think what Lore is saying it pretty much spot on.

When it comes to Putricide itself, the little green you get around your character when you have Plague Sickness is very difficult to see, especially zoomed out. There is no animation, it's just a light green cover. As someone said earlier, Northrend Beasts had the right idea. I found myself looking at the game world to see who had Burning Bile and the acid and react that way, because it was very clearly visible at a glance.

Having to set up your Grid or other addon to see who you can pass it to and then select them and /follow or use another addon to see where they are is clunky and frankly quite stupid.

Redox
05-25-2010, 08:48 AM
Lore, I can see where you're coming with Heroic Putricide, but healers have already been dealing with this kind of problem for a long time.

Make your raid frame show who has the plague debuff. Then run to someone who's little box doesn't have the debuff. Can't find the person on the game screen once you've selected their raid frame? Turn on nameplates, and get an addon like tidyplates and set it up to light up like a roman candle on your target.

We have the same problem with this on BQL. Some people just have a really hard time tracking down people who aren't bitten. But former healers turned shadowpriests like me never have a problem. I know exactly who has been bitten and who hasn't, and I can quickly and easily find the person who I want to bite on the game floor. (This is made even easier because my warlock buddy and I always trade bites on the same location on the floor). I've only ever been MC'd once or twice on this fight, and that is usually when someone stealth bites my target when my debuff's low.

Don't lament AVR. Get Grid or some other raid frame addon and set it up to show debuffs.


I'm sorry, but using grid is not an applicable replacement for an on screen queue as to who is safe to pass the plague off to. Grid may let me know that XXX is free, but that doesn't mean XXX will be easy to find. It takes to long to correlate who doesn't have the debuff and where they are standing. The other problem is there are so many things you have to look out for that if your staring at grid to see who is safe to pass it off to, you will most likely find yourself running straight into a malleable goo, or some other nonsense that the fight has you avoiding.

I only used AVRE for the disease for H Putricide, everything else was shut off because I hated all the circles and colors blocking my screen. AVRE showed one thing; blizzard is incompetent with letting players know exactly how some mechanics work, and that they really need to work harder at letting us be aware of how some things work. The other thing that needs to be addressed is making sure that these graphical queues are visible even on low settings. I've heard plenty of people in our raids complain that they didn't notice X ability because they have their graphics so low.. that was a shortcoming AVRE fixed, and is something blizzard should keep in mind when they put in there version of it.

Dawnbreaker
05-25-2010, 10:42 AM
I think this had the potential to be a good video, but I think Lore missed the boat on why this mod exists and why it is being blocked by Blizzard. The real problem with the ICC encounters is that a full half of them have the "Stand X yards away from others" requirement, either a static spread (Saurfang) or a dynamic one (Sindragosa, BQL). The "obscureness" of spreading out at X yards, which people might argue is "skill", is what is making these encounters difficult. Instead of relying on a DBM/BW range box, we got a circle on the ground, which is much faster visual communication (similar to Lore's point regarding Unbound Plague and who to pass it to).

If you were to back up to Ulduar, arguably the best raid instance of the expansion, AVRe would be nearly useless. Blizzard was already providing visual cues, such as Council circles, Hodir circles, Mimiron Rocket circles. Back up to KT/Sartharion, and void zones have a circle to not stand in before they do damage. What do we have in ICC? None of those, we rely on people with /say over their heads and have to move away from malleable goo and defile. I mean, really, are people happy with the /say mechanic we have to use? That is effectively requiring DBM/BW for certain encounters, and Blizzard is making that requirement.

In short, the encounter philosophy changed such that:
1) it is dangerous to stand together, so the raid must maintain a spread of X yards (varying per encounter)
2) The "fires on the ground" have become invisible, meaning there are no visual cues that tell the raider he/she has been targeted for disaster (unless he's running a boss mod like DBM or BW, which encounter designers seem to now assume, hence mechanics like Goo/Defile).

Knighterrant81
05-25-2010, 10:43 AM
I'm sorry, but using grid is not an applicable replacement for an on screen queue as to who is safe to pass the plague off to. Grid may let me know that XXX is free, but that doesn't mean XXX will be easy to find. It takes to long to correlate who doesn't have the debuff and where they are standing. The other problem is there are so many things you have to look out for that if your staring at grid to see who is safe to pass it off to, you will most likely find yourself running straight into a malleable goo, or some other nonsense that the fight has you avoiding.

I only used AVRE for the disease for H Putricide, everything else was shut off because I hated all the circles and colors blocking my screen. AVRE showed one thing; blizzard is incompetent with letting players know exactly how some mechanics work, and that they really need to work harder at letting us be aware of how some things work. The other thing that needs to be addressed is making sure that these graphical queues are visible even on low settings. I've heard plenty of people in our raids complain that they didn't notice X ability because they have their graphics so low.. that was a shortcoming AVRE fixed, and is something blizzard should keep in mind when they put in there version of it.

If I only had Grid then sure it would be hard. But with nameplates up I can easily see my target and where he's standing. Then all I have to do is run from point A (where I am now) to point B (where my target is standing) while avoiding Malleable goo. Not the easiest thing in the world, no, but I have all the information I need to make the correct decision quickly.

Ballador
05-25-2010, 10:48 AM
I just have one minor "complaint" about the Putricide encounter, either in normal or heroic. My guild is having issues (yes, we end up defeating him, but it takes multiple attempts) with Maleable Goo. I know every raider has DBM installed, yet they are still getting hit with Maleable Goo. I have also had the pleasure of defeating Heroic Rotface, and in THAT encounter, when Putricide throws the Goo from the balcony, we at least get a green circle warning us that the goo is inbound. Why couldn't they put target circles on the ground for this mechanic in the Normal and Heroic versions of the Putricide encounter?? It makes sense to me!

someidiot
05-25-2010, 01:18 PM
Blizzard was already providing visual cues, such as Council circles, Hodir circles, Mimiron Rocket circles. Back up to KT/Sartharion, and void zones have a circle to not stand in before they do damage. What do we have in ICC? None of those, we rely on people with /say over their heads and have to move away from malleable goo and defile. I mean, really, are people happy with the /say mechanic we have to use? That is effectively requiring DBM/BW for certain encounters, and Blizzard is making that requirement.

Thats a really good point, i didnt even think about that.

swelt
05-25-2010, 03:14 PM
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?63640-Icecrown-Putricide-Hard

"Players with Plague Sickness are easily visible by the green disease aura that surrounds them."
This is true, but it also goes some way to highlight other problems with raid encounter design. The effect is too subtle and too hard to see with everything else going on on screen. It probably looks really cool to the art guy that drew it, but the gameplay guy should have stood up and said "no make it brighter". What makes that even worse is a pet bug bear of mine... spell effects. I realise that everyone wants their character to look super cool when they fire their lazers/heals/cooldowns but in a raid context 25 sets of spell effects dwarf half the visual cues that the encounters do actually put in. Boss speech competes with "pew pew, chop chop", "glowing eyes/raised hands/inhaled breath" visuals are dwarfed by the gigantic moonbeams/fireballs/holy hammers et al (please explain why devastate should have a gigantic ghostly sword animation?) which seem to scale up in line with the model scaling.

Remember the red void zones in the red room surrounded by red fire at Sartharion? They were still a pain to see when they became blue. Classic example of this type of design error.

A simple fix? The sliders for spell effect detail and sound effects should be separate for player and non-player effects.

As to the specific putricide encounter, Deadly Bossmods will raid mark the closest person without a disease and draw an arrow on your screen directing you to that person. Is this too much hand holding?

Heladys
05-25-2010, 06:12 PM
The biggest win I saw with AVR/AVRE was with range denotation. I'm a tank. What the heck do I know about 8 yard, 10 yards, 12 yards separation?

Mods like DBM/BigWigs which guess at your range from other players and show a frame with people who're too close only give you part of the information since you still have no real solid way to grasp ranges while looking at a 2D representation of a 3D world at varying levels of zoom and angle of view. Maybe for casters who have to develop a better sense of ranges, but for melee? Nah.

Now yes, we all dealt with it for years. We got thru it just fine. It was painful however, particularly on the "one person twitches and the raid dies" fights. Having a nice projected range around your character was probably too easy, but it was a breath of fresh air after years of annoying and completely random range-based mechanics.

surf3001x
05-25-2010, 08:16 PM
The joke Lore makes at about 4:00 into the movie was like terrible.

But so terrible it was hilarious. You knew the moment those words slipped out what you had done ha-ha.

spacebananas
05-25-2010, 09:08 PM
Just a quick thing about finding someone without the debuff. We all use vent, so long story short the person who doesnt have it should call it out. When raids are planned placement of who is where is also usually planned, and so most people should know where said person is, or even more so have the person with it click on the minimap.

example in use. I (joe) gets it, I in turn click on the minimap(which should ping so if people dont see, they can hear it) and fellow raider (mike) who doesn't have it calls over vent, "I got it", runs over, boom problem solved. Reverse the role of finding someone without, and just have someone without find the person with. Maybe that's just me.

Haam
05-25-2010, 09:37 PM
"blizzard needs to make sure they are giving the players the information they need [to beat encounter]" -Ciderhelm

They don't give you accurate distance measurements which are needed for almost every encounter. We use mods to have distance checks.

The only difference with AVR is that it displays the information in a way that is useful.

Fudandragg
05-25-2010, 11:16 PM
It's going to give All of World of Warcraft's Raiding strategic value back, so End-Game guilds will give them some difficulty.

Irons
05-26-2010, 12:17 AM
For some reason, I know a lot of people who can't seem to see the animation for the debuff on heroic putricide after you pass the plague.

There is one. Its a kind of greenish blackish smoke thing. It really stands out to me.

Is it a spell detail level problem?

Jaen
05-26-2010, 12:59 AM
And a big ole icon on your raid frames if you have them configured properly!

Does the default interface allow for that big ole icon on the raid frames? Because if it doesn't, then you are saying in order to do the encounter, you must install X ui addon. If one must install said raid frames addon, then how can it be argued that AVR or a similar addon is less appropriate than the raid frames ui addon? The encounter design lacks in a way that the general populace needs to install third party addons to reveal the information needed in the encounter.
Bringing us back to Lore's request: make the Sickness a bit more visible. (or other similar effects in encounter design)

To be fair, I play in a heavily modded ui. (sans AVR as I felt it was pushing the line of cheating/playing the game for me, but that is my own moral compass guiding my own choice) So I have the big ole icon for debuffs on Grid and it's easy just as you say.

Ciderhelm
05-26-2010, 01:02 AM
Does the default interface allow for that big ole icon on the raid frames? Because if it doesn't, then you are saying in order to do the encounter, you must install X ui addon. If one must install said raid frames addon, then how can it be argued that AVR or a similar addon is less appropriate than the raid frames ui addon?
It can be argued because it's not black and white, it's not so cut and dry as "these two mods do the same kind of thing and are thus equal evils." That is Blizzard's argument, at least:

While some other mods also work to this end, we find that AVR and the act of visualizing strategy within the game world simply goes beyond what we’re willing to allow.

Terra
05-26-2010, 08:46 AM
AVRE is nearly impossible to contain on Blizzards side. I think Blizzard is doing the right thing. HOWEVER, I want something like AVR for static drawings. It would be lovely if Blizzard built it in game. I think Lore is right on target and some things could be done better form the blizzard side. Most of the bad feelings about AVR come from the dynamic visualization issues. I still see great value as a raid leader in static AVR drawings. Smoke flares are nice. Shammy totems are nice, but AVR is so much better. If they are going to break it, I wish there was a way to ONLY break the dynamic non-static drawings and allow me to go John Madden on my raid floor.

In any case, I instructed my guild to unload AVR and AVRE last night in anticipation. I think about 75% of them did. Nonetheless, we did just as well as we always do. 2 wipes, cleared everything short of the Lich King. (BTW we haven't killed the Lich King yet. Hoping that comes tonight).

2ndNin
05-26-2010, 09:29 AM
I think people are looking at this from the wrong direction, we comment that mechanics are invisible rather than marked obviously however marking it reduces all area of effect mechanics to simple don't stand in the shape checks.

Malleable goo is no different to a delayed void zone, however the non marked end point makes us instead treat it like a line effect like marrowgar's fire. We note the target and move from the line connecting the boss and the targeted player. We have a largely visible mechanic requiring focus to note (issue 1) and implied knowledge of the raid layout (issue 2).

Issue 1 is the level of focus required to spot these mechanics. Each is typically semi subtle compared to the obviousness of a voidzone. I would say that this is actually a good issue, however should likely be constrained to hardmodes. These mechanics are interesting twists on the move from the circle however might be too taxing or annoying for easy modes.

Issue 2 is the implied knowledge of raid positioning, tracking the approximate position of 24 or 9 other members within the raid to make easy snap judgement based on the text alerts. Again this seems like it should be an assumes capabilty of raiders to be able to actually track their raid through ui mechanics (nameplates) or just through mental tracking. I think people wanting to remove this aspect are looking to simplify the game too much. No non scifi environment would give us a true HUD with names and directions. Maintainig this as an implied raiding skill seems like a good thing.

None of the issues avr fixes in combat are ones I think it should realistically deal with, either they are intrusive or are attempt to replace core skills of playing such as actually knowing or guessing how the mechanics work and tracking your own raid.

Rhyseh
05-26-2010, 09:45 AM
As a raid leader I love these addons. They give me the ability to draw my strategy in real time and show my raiders exactly what I mean when I explain a strategy. It gives me the ability to accurately target locations without being limited by pesky range limitations on flares or the irritating cooldowns and then have to deal with them expiring 3/4 of the way through a long encounter. Especially when encounters like Sindragosa are so easy to wipe on if one person drops their Ice Tomb in the wrong place. For me being able to place raid symbols on the ground meant I didn't have to spam Raid Warnings with crude positioning drawings.

As an Oceanic raider AVRE made certain mechanics (like malleable goo) much easier to manage due to the fact that most of us play with 300-400+ ms. To further explain my point here; at present Malleable Goo and Defile are identified on players by /say, /yell and raid icons. For most people these all originate from a foreign source i.e. someone else's DBM does the /say for malleable goo or the RL's DBM places raid markers. What this effectively means for us is that every time Malleable Goo (or a similar debuff) is cast on a player we experience a number of delays before we experience the message. There is the time taken for the information stating malleable goo is being cast to reach the affected player, there is the time it takes for their DBM generated "Malleable Goo on me" message to reach the server, there is the time it takes for this message to get from the server to the rest of the raid, the time it takes for us to react and then there is the time it takes for the information of the actions we took to reach the server. All in all this reduces the amount of time we have to react significantly to a large amount of effects (not just malleable goo). AVRE was great here because it cut out the need to have someone else's machine react to the event and relay it back to the server, thus cutting out a large portion of the delay and giving us more time to react to events.

So while I do agree that certain elements of AVR and AVRE do go too far, there are also elements that make life easier as a raid leader and significantly easier as an Oceanic raider.

Dawnbreaker
05-26-2010, 10:57 AM
I think people are looking at this from the wrong direction, we comment that mechanics are invisible rather than marked obviously however marking it reduces all area of effect mechanics to simple don't stand in the shape checks.
And yet, if we mark the mechanic in one method that's fine. If we mark it via another means, it is not fine?

Malleable Goo/Defile/Shadow Trap? We play "run away from the chat bubble" instead of "run out of the circle on the ground". Spacing on BQL air phase? We look at our range text box instead of a circle around us. Where to stand for Sindragosa? We use smoke flares/elune stones to mark spots instead of static markers on the ground.

Point is, we are already marking these things. Someone found a more visual way to mark it, and suddenly it became "bad".

Terra
05-26-2010, 11:32 AM
A thought to throw out to Blizzard developers. Create an item called Kilroy's Can of Incandescence. Item is an off-hand item and is only usable by people with Raid Assist or Raid Leader status. Item can only be used while not in combat and will allow you to paint on the floor and will remain there until the instance is reset or person loses raid lead/assist status.

Color text: "Kilroy was here, or there, or there and sometimes there, but never ever ever over there."

My $0.02

Trustbuster
05-26-2010, 05:39 PM
"Stand X yards away from each other" encounters seem to be the biggest cop-out on making a normal mode into a hard mode. I would like to see all of those go away. Examples of intelligent, interesting hard mode debuffs/abilities include Blood Princes Shadow Prison and quicker-dropping Kinetic Bombs, Sindragosa's 6x AOE damage Unchained Magic, as well as her Icy Grip/Blistering Cold and Permeating Chill (although the latter is unfairly punishing to faster attacking classes like rogues and enhancement shamans), and Lady Deathwhisper's punishing ghosts (right after aoe frostbolts no less) and quick-spawning adds.

I fail to see how Cataclysm's stated goal of relatively equal difficulty of 10 mans and 25 mans is achievable when so many encounters rely on the "range" penalties, and those penalties are so incredibly easier to deal with in 10 man.

2ndNin
05-26-2010, 05:49 PM
And yet, if we mark the mechanic in one method that's fine. If we mark it via another means, it is not fine?

Malleable Goo/Defile/Shadow Trap? We play "run away from the chat bubble" instead of "run out of the circle on the ground". Spacing on BQL air phase? We look at our range text box instead of a circle around us. Where to stand for Sindragosa? We use smoke flares/elune stones to mark spots instead of static markers on the ground.

Point is, we are already marking these things. Someone found a more visual way to mark it, and suddenly it became "bad".

Those scenarios though are different. The malleable goo is run away from a moving chat box that may have shifted before you notice it (no permanant maker, delay intolerant, small visible marker). Defile and similar again gives the main target the full time to move away from the raid and others slightly less so. It is not quite a twitch mechanic however it is likely the closest wow has come. Twitch requirements of 1-1.5 seconds aren't that bad, 3+ are typically easy for most. It's tight but that's hardmodes.

As for permanant markers, at current we have no "goblin pain marker" or similar making marks on the world, but at the same time mechanics are simplified to represent this, sindragosa always hits 2 people with 5+ seconds of warning. If we allow marks to make positioning easier ( and 10+ yards from raid in the opposite direction of the last or similar are not taxing) then the corresponding event must be mre difficult to make the ease of mechanic up. So we might see sindragosa cast 1-4 iceblocks with the health split to the same effective difficulty as 2 now. Additionally these might have variable ranges or chain off of unchained magic to 30 yards not 10.

I understand what you mean by one form of marking vs another however the autoreaction time required for circles in play vs Reading text is way lower and requires little thought. As lore said it shows safe spots causing people to run. Elunes stones and flares would be nice, but from an immersion and reaction pov they are still slower than circles and obvious marks which makes hard things still hardish because no one lays down a standing grid of flares to mark 10 yard safeties.

Dawnbreaker
05-27-2010, 10:09 AM
I understand what you mean by one form of marking vs another however the autoreaction time required for circles in play vs Reading text is way lower and requires little thought.
The reaction time needed for both examples is the same, the only difference is the visual cues on the screen. Labeling one version as "skill" while the other as "too easy" is a subjective matter. Personally I prefer the graphics and I think it is a failure in encounter design for raiders to need to use either the chat bubble or the circle on the ground. Whoever the encounter designer was got really lazy and just assumed everyone would have DBM/BW installed and that we would play the "chat bubble" game, but apparently the "don't stand in the circle" game he has found offensive.

2ndNin
05-27-2010, 03:58 PM
It takes longer to read text and understand its meaning than to interpret being inside or outside a circle (at least from what I have seen), I can't find a medical text to back me up but anecdotally its true. Going by a few sites (like http://www.billiondollargraphics.com/infographics.html so no credible research) its saying images are 60,000 faster processing than text due to their parallel nature (you can assess multiple things in a picture at once in a way you can't with text - context is generally quite spatially related). Most range meters are text based, I suppose you could go on the simple presence of a name if there is only a single spread mechanic but that's not as finely grained information as the circles.

You said it yourself, "Personally I prefer the graphics", but that is largely irrelevant, why should all mechanics use a graphical representation rather than relying on an interpretation of movement (malleable goo). For objects they want us to use "don't stand in the circle" techniques for, they put down a circle, for others they create invisible circles with interpretable clues. Defile would be a huge non issue if it created a circle where it would be spawned, instead it requires raid awareness on behalf of the target and the raid (2 people moving at 180degrees from each other travel 2x as only one moving). This then links into the valk'yrs mechanic whereby non-coordinated spreading results in a manageable but much more difficult and inefficient handling of this mechanic. Again this would be simplified by placing two circles saying "raid goes here, defile target here".

Personally I like having the differentiation between knowledge, implicit, and visual effects even if the underlying mechanics are the same they feel different and the raid responds differently too them.

Do your raiders actually play the chat bubble game? At least in raids I have been part of (ICC 10 12/12, ICC 25 11/12 + various hardmode attempts) I don't play a game of watching chat bubbles, I see what is coming and I know where the raid is, I respond to that and act on it, I follow the path of the ooze and I try and predict things like the landing spots for the ooze puddles. I guess I just like the idea of having to watch where the missiles fall as well as tracking the other boss mechanics and the raid rather than having it all reduced to the fundamental essential truth of "safe area" vs "not safe area".

kedicik
05-28-2010, 03:18 AM
shoot me for not reading all the posts so far, but i just want to say what i have in my mind.. i will take the weekly ICC quest example...
this is the way blizzard designed the encounter, this is the way the encounter is,
this is the mechanic which makes this encounter something other than tank and spank,
this is where you need fast clicks (to see who hasnt debuff) and a lag free environment (this comment is to most beloved blizz) to spot the one without debuff and run to him/her in 10 secs,
the coordination to avoid deaths bec of disease is the thing which seperates pugs (i have seen and been in some really succesful ones but u know most r just pugs) from guilds and guilds from raiding guilds and raiding guilds from succesfully progressing guilds,
this is why we (the raiders) are still playing this game, doing hard modes, heroic raids, to satisfy our need for overcoming a challenge

now, i have AVR (and maybe AVRE too not sure about that) installed, but used it once to draw some circles in darnassus and thats all... i am not saying blizz should remove it, people using it arent good raiders, nor i am saying it shouldnt be removed.. all i am saying is, check the list above, and decide if you really want to use this addon.. after all it is our freewill to use it or no.

back in the good old days of ulduar, i have experienced many wipes just because some people are standing under the snow (cant remember the name) in hodir encounter and dying which has already been showed by blizzard, so if you are a raider who knows what to do this addon wont give u anything and again if you dont know what to do this addon wont give u anything saying from personal experience.

the bottom line of wall of text is, i am very happy wiping on LK over and over and over, rather than using this addon showing me where to go, because this is what contributes to my gaming experience, makes it more delightful (not wiping on LK ofc, overcoming the challenge with combined skill of me and my guildies).

cheers

Essq
05-31-2010, 12:05 AM
Or we could just turn this situation around :)

Instead of delivering the plague, why not pick it up?
Why is it the affected persons problem, to get rid of it? Just get one who do not have the debuff pick it up.

And whoa, now this is about teamplay, instead of one person having to throw his debuff away on his own. So now ppl are handeling the debuff instead of trying to get rid of it.

Zellviren
05-31-2010, 05:25 AM
As Lore said (and this thread has meted out), this particular AddOn has caused a real split-down-the-middle regarding the viewpoints of players. Essentially, though, I think too many people are concentrating on the Professor Putricide example that he used and not the actual point; the default game interface is, quite often, not sufficient when dealing with complex mechanics.

I think we can all come up with examples of where that was the case and I'm not going to point any out because I think it could derail the point again. But arguing that things like VuhDo or Grid should be used is off base because they're not part of the default interface. Put bluntly, people seem to be arguing that you can solve Blizzard's lack of functionality in-game by using other AddOns to compensate.

Lore is saying that you shouldn't have to do this at all. The Blizzard interface should be good enough without AddOns being needed.

Funnily enough, my most recent blog discusses AVR and its removal and, I admit, I come to the same general conclusion as Lore on a couple of points. It's not really the AddOn that's to blame, more the encounter design. However, I believe that boss mods in general are way too sophisticated and are now forcing Blizzard to complicate encounters to the point of silliness. People working on things like heroic Professor Putricide and heroic Arthas are not telling me that they're having fun - they're telling me that they're stressed out. The slightest error in judgement is causing wipes. They're not playing the game without their hand being held, they're absolutely dependent on the timers in their boss mod to do what they need to do, at the right time. That doesn't take "skill" and isn't "fun" for those I speak to about it - it's learning an encounter by brute force repetition and hoping you down it before your tries expire.

Dazdor
05-31-2010, 08:26 AM
I have an issue with your example of the Plague Sickness/Unbound Plague example. Their are debuffs and as such can be displayed on player's unit frames (which every raider should be running) making the managing of the Plague no more tedious than glancing at your unit frames to determine who is unplagued, clicking their frame, finding the little circle underneath them that is built into the game, and running towards them. As an example: I am the only Shaman in my 10 man raid. On BQL I have my grid set up to display a small purple icon on the right side of each player's unit frame when they have the Essence of the Blood Queen debuff. What this allows me to do is quickly determine the optimal time to blow Bloodlust.

Nonetheless I do understand what you're trying to say with that example and I'm willing to bet there are plenty of other similar examples available that would be better suited for what you're trying to say. AVR, in my opinion, is an addon for people that don't like to pay much attention to their surroundings or don't want to invest the time to learn how to use Grid or something akin.

My point is that there are plenty of other options that don't break Blizzard's Terms of Use (or Service or whatever) for handling encounter mechanics.

2ndNin
06-01-2010, 06:35 AM
The basic UI is sufficient for all raiding needs, having raided all of ICC without a single mod up one night I can say that it is doable. It is not as simple, it doesn't present all the information you may want but it does give you access to all you need to complete the encounters.

Erdinger
06-02-2010, 09:51 PM
Or we could just turn this situation around :)

Instead of delivering the plague, why not pick it up?
Why is it the affected persons problem, to get rid of it? Just get one who do not have the debuff pick it up.

And whoa, now this is about teamplay, instead of one person having to throw his debuff away on his own. So now ppl are handeling the debuff instead of trying to get rid of it.

Funny no one mentioned it earlier.

Brutallic
06-02-2010, 10:17 PM
Very much of raiding revolves around reacting to and anticipating boss abilities.
Typical examples would be..
The boss doing an AoE from his position.
The boss targeting a random raid member with an ability that does AoE damage.

These are both typical examples of boss mechanics that you probably see most raid instances and there are PLENTY of addons that assist you in anticipating these things. Just about any bossmod will help define when exactly said AoE ability is going to be cast, and that further helps you react by being able to anticipate when you need to check your debuffs, or visual cues around you that show you where this AoE ability is being targeted.

However, everyone is so focused about AVR being "hand-holding" it goes further than just handholding, AVR can be used in many ways, it would probably have had some kind of use outside raids too if it had developed further with other things in mind, those that made it clearly had raiding specifically intended for its use but I'm sure that drawing objects in the game world can have other uses that might not be completely legit.

Anyways, what I really liked about AVR was that it showed a very precise and intelligible way of measuring whether or not you are too close or to far away from whatever it is you need to avoid or be close to.

I'm not worried AVR is being broken, there is this other addon called HudMap which will basically place a map spanning across your screen that shows you the players in your raid and where they are, and also paints them with a dot if they get one of those AoE abilities targeted at them, and it's 2D so it isn't as intrusive to the game world as AVR was.