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View Full Version : Tanking Should Taunts Really Miss Bosses?



Kahmal
04-23-2010, 01:55 PM
I'm not saying that the RNG of Taunts is wrong. I think it adds a nice dynamic on trash pulls and such, having to react to a taunt missing is an important part of tanking.

But to have to use up a Glyph slot (where Warriors already have 2 other staple glyphs) for fights like Saurfang or Sindragosa just to make sure things stay smooth just seems dumb to me.

proudmoore
04-23-2010, 01:58 PM
If there's something you can do about it missing - i.e. using a secondary Taunt, all well and good. If your class doesn;t have a secondary Taunt (I think both Druids and Warriors only have Fixates as secondary "hit me" buttons?), then it just sucks.

I'd probably rather there were two different sort of tank swap encounters, though - one where you taunt because timing is crucial, and so you really don't want it to miss, and others where the boss *can't* be taunted, so the timing is necessarily more fluid.

Satorri
04-23-2010, 03:23 PM
What I've been hearing from Blizz lately is that they don't think it should be as easy to miss as it is. It has been suggested it might lose its chance to miss, though that will be in Clysm at this point.

In the meanwhile? It is possible to make it incapable of missing with the glyph and a very reasonable amount of hit rating to reach, so if you don't want it to be possible to miss you can attain that, it just isn't without cost currently.

Nez
04-23-2010, 03:25 PM
Am I weird to still appreciate that you can even taunt bosses?
:D

veneretio
04-23-2010, 03:32 PM
Am I weird to still appreciate that you can even taunt bosses?
:D
There should be far less bosses that are tauntable. Those that are shouldn't have their taunts miss ever and it definitely shouldn't cost us one of our major glyph slots in order to accomplish this.

Nez
04-23-2010, 03:35 PM
There should be far less bosses that are tauntable. Those that are shouldn't have their taunts miss ever and it definitely shouldn't cost us one of our major glyph slots in order to accomplish this.

That I agree with totally.
:D

Kurtosis
04-23-2010, 04:42 PM
Ghostcrawler on taunts missing (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24038825781&pageNo=3#50):

I'm going to vote for not interesting gameplay.

At the very least, you should be able to reduce your chance to miss a Taunt to zero if you reduce your chance to miss with a weapon to zero. It's also possible we'll just let them always hit.
Probably will get changed in Cataclysm.

Schmevan
04-23-2010, 05:41 PM
honestly I'd be ok if it was just weapon hit instead of spell hit, then again I can say the same thing about icy touch. I had a wipe in ICC the other day because I went to pull and had Icy Touch twice, death grip, and taunt miss in a row. A freak accident I know, but stuff like that shouldn't happen. I don't mind wiping, I do mind wiping because of stupid game mechanics beyond the player's control.

Liar
04-23-2010, 06:12 PM
Death Grip can miss?

Schmevan
04-23-2010, 06:23 PM
its happened to me, not very often, or maybe it hit and somebody pulled aggro, I might have a shoddy memory but I believe I saw a miss on my combat log

Martie
04-23-2010, 06:32 PM
I don't think that any mechanic that is so essential to many encounters should be allowed to miss.
Honestly, it's like giving heals a chance to miss - it adds a coinflip factor into the fight. Miss the flip, and you wipe.

Kahmal
04-23-2010, 06:46 PM
Ghostcrawler on taunts missing (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=24038825781&pageNo=3#50):

Probably will get changed in Cataclysm.

Like I said, I dont want Taunt to always hit, missing them during like a 5-man trash pull (at least in TBC) made things interesting. But much like how they can turn parry hasting off on certain bosses, just make other bosses where taunting is fundamental...just not freakin miss.

gacktt
04-23-2010, 08:28 PM
It's almost as if they want us to waste gold having 200 taunt glyphs and 200 X glyphs everytime we do saur->fester->putricide->sindra on HM.

Arikak
04-23-2010, 08:46 PM
it's like giving heals a chance to miss

Oh jeez, reminds me of this resto shammy in early TBC telling me that I "resisted" her heals...

Back on topic:

Changing Taunt to function off of melee hit requirements (if that's possible) makes the most sense. It keeps things interesting and gives another aspect to gearing that I think tanks need. I have no problem making sure I stay Taunt-hit capped for Cata as long as the cost of doing so is not as insanely steep as it is now.

KnThrak
04-23-2010, 11:59 PM
I suppose with all tanks having a secondary taunt-mechanic to fall back on and technically being able to glyph their taunt I don't really see the big deal.

One can always carry around a few glyphs (and should), and swap in a Taunt / Dark Command / Growl / Hand of Reckoning glyph for sensitive fights like Putricide and Saurfang if one does not like having to rely on a cooldown-based secondary taunt.

That's something I don't quite understand though, it seems a huge part of the community has an issue with swapping in a taunt-glyph for a taunt-based fight but does not consider swapping other glyphs for fights strange. Either the game is designed to allow me to optimize my glyphs per-fight - and considering how cheap they are it is currently - or it isn't, in which case I can only swap them say... once every 24 hours.

Kurtosis
04-24-2010, 02:48 AM
I had a wipe in ICC the other day because I went to pull and had Icy Touch twice, death grip, and taunt miss in a row.
Same - DG miss, IT miss, healer dead, no wipe but brez used prematurely. This happened just the other week.

Satorri
04-24-2010, 05:08 AM
There should be far less bosses that are tauntable. Those that are shouldn't have their taunts miss ever and it definitely shouldn't cost us one of our major glyph slots in order to accomplish this.

I like bosses being tauntable for sake of ease and safety, but I wouldn't mind seeing that go away so that it is truly punishing of DPS who are careless. I remember well how in BC if you pulled threat on a boss you were probably wiping the raid, that had a positive impact on people taking responsibility for their own threat.

Dreadski
04-24-2010, 07:27 AM
I like bosses being tauntable for sake of ease and safety, but I wouldn't mind seeing that go away so that it is truly punishing of DPS who are careless. I remember well how in BC if you pulled threat on a boss you were probably wiping the raid, that had a positive impact on people taking responsibility for their own threat.

Even if it didn't, at least the bastards got a repair bill and fingers pointed at them.

Liar
04-24-2010, 07:41 AM
I suppose with all tanks having a secondary taunt-mechanic to fall back on and technically being able to glyph their taunt I don't really see the big deal.


Warriors and Druids do not have a secondary taunt mechanic.

Martie
04-24-2010, 08:02 AM
I like bosses being tauntable for sake of ease and safety, but I wouldn't mind seeing that go away so that it is truly punishing of DPS who are careless. I remember well how in BC if you pulled threat on a boss you were probably wiping the raid, that had a positive impact on people taking responsibility for their own threat.
I don't like bosses being tauntable one bit - it makes DPS lazy.

Look, I honestly have no issue with taunts being part of the core mechanic in a boss fight - that's a good thing, and it makes for good boss fights most of the time. But bosses that don't have such mechanics don't need to be tauntable. (Though it would help a lot there if they gave offtanks a more reasonable chance to stay second on threat.)

What I hope they do is change taunt to be on the melee hit table, but without a chance of being dodged or parried, and at the same time, they don't change the taunt glyph. That way, tanks have a few reasonable choices to make when it comes to these things. Either you ignore taunt hit completely, which would work fine for heroics and easier raids, you have enough hit rating to be reasonably sure your taunt hits, or you make sure you hit the cap via hit rating or a glyph.
I like choices, and right now, tank that raid don't have a choice. Either they get the glyph and some hit rating, or they run the risk of wiping their raid.

Airowird
04-24-2010, 10:48 AM
First of all they should change the glyph to work for the full 17%, then we can work for making Taunt a ranged ability rather than a spell, assuming that it might take a big patch (read: 4.0 cata pre-patch) to completely overhaul Taunts.
Besides, Warriors don't want spells anyway, they only work if you wear a dress and what tank would run around in a thing like that? .... Oh, sorry Paladins

Teran
04-24-2010, 02:25 PM
You aren't forced to use a glyph. If you and your guild feel that missing ~one taunt out of ten is an acceptable risk then don't use the glyph. If you and your guild feel it is unacceptable then use the glyph.

A lot of people seem to think that glyphs are supposed to make our characters stronger by buffing a specific skill. This is the case with many of them however glyphs aren't there just to help us capitalize on the strengths of our class, some glyphs exist to eliminate a weakness. I more or less have to choose between the 8% hit glyph or a bonus to the healing I receive while frenzied regeneration is up. It's an easy choice to take in my case as I have little trouble with survival and believe missing two taunts out of a hundred is much more acceptable in terms of risk than one out of ten.

Miagorme
04-24-2010, 08:29 PM
could just gear/gem for a little more hit =p

Steakdinner
04-25-2010, 01:36 AM
Just think it's silly that it's based on spell hit, from the warrior perspective. Seeing that all of my damage is physical, I shouldn't be punished for not being at the spell hit cap.

Amaranthine
04-25-2010, 09:50 AM
Am I weird to still appreciate that you can even taunt bosses?
:D
Lol i remember those old days when NOTHING was tauntable.

It is a bit silly that the Lich King himself is driven to attack someone because they called his mother ugly

Satorri
04-26-2010, 07:20 AM
/wind up to terrible


"Yo Lichy! Yo' mummy's so fat...."

Quinafoi
04-26-2010, 08:20 AM
Maybe in Cataclysm they will make it so taunt never misses bosses, by just making all bosses immune to taunt like they used to be. Consider yourselves lucky taunt does work and don't complain about the chance for it to fail when it used to not work at all on many boss encounters.

Teran
04-26-2010, 04:24 PM
Lol i remember those old days when NOTHING was tauntable.

It is a bit silly that the Lich King himself is driven to attack someone because they called his mother ugly

I think it's also a but silly that a bear roaring can debuff his hp, a warrior or rogue can damage his indestructible armor, and that a man who is supposed to be dead can still bleed.

Come to think of it, the fact that he doesn't just use that insta raid kill 5 seconds into the fight instead of when his hp pool hits 10% is odd too.

Over simplifying game mechanics and then contrasting that with something that might be more "realistic" is just silly.

I also remember when nothing was tauntable. I also remember that warriors were the only tank fully equipped to actually tank in those conditions, anything else was not optimal or efficient.

I don't think all bosses should be tauntable, but making all bosses untauntable would just be silly. It is a valuable mechanic that adds depth to the game and being forced to choose between two good options is better than not having more good options than you have glyph space for.

Daavos
05-25-2010, 07:45 AM
Warriors and Druids do not have a secondary taunt mechanic.

I find mocking blow and CS helpful as secondary taunts.

Mert
05-25-2010, 07:56 AM
they only work if you wear a dress and what tank would run around in a thing like that? .... Oh, sorry Paladins

And proud of it! We're protected and stylish. Give me a skirt made of plate mail over horrendous, gothy skull-ridden shoulders any day :D

jere
05-25-2010, 12:26 PM
I find mocking blow and CS helpful as secondary taunts.

Those are not taunts. They are strictly Fixates. Taunts actually change threat table values while fixates do not.

2ndNin
05-25-2010, 12:28 PM
I think the answer to this one is a lot more complex and depends on how fights are designed. If threat is still not meant to be an issue, then leaving the bosses tauntable makes sense as it means tank threat imbalances can be ignored largely and you can have hard transitions without requiring an aggro reset. Switching aggro fights without a reset means there must be a mechanic in place to reduce the threat / control threat on targets meaning Blizzard needs to actually balance tank threat. Can you imagine how easy Void Reaver would have been with a threat cap set by a chain icy touching DK?

Tauntable bosses make life easier for Blizzard and tanks. I think this is one of those things where we need better control mechanics in general rather than just taunts, however if a boss shouldn't be tauntable then make it so, otherwise why not just leave it tauntable.

Loganisis
05-25-2010, 01:42 PM
I don't understand why people are upset with non-glyphed taunts missing. It seems perfectly reasonable to me that taunt success is a factor in a fight encounter - if, as a tank, you're not spec'd for it, you're letting the raid down. If a taunt misses and it becomes a raid wipe, the tank didn't perform. Thats the type of required attention I enjoy - especially on taunt fights when really the only thing you're doing is making sure you taunt off at the right time. Now having to track taunt misses in a fight with a million other things going on... that's different, but for taunt fights - what else are you doing to keep you entertained?

2ndNin
05-25-2010, 04:20 PM
Imagine a fight where mages had to use glyph of slow or there would be a potential wipe. Or Warlocks using unending breath... Its not a good mechanic to have a problem that you cannot work around using normal gear or skills. Taunt yes, requiring 1 glyph to make it work = Instructor Raz all over again,

Loganisis
05-26-2010, 06:45 AM
Imagine a fight where mages had to use glyph of slow or there would be a potential wipe. Or Warlocks using unending breath... Its not a good mechanic to have a problem that you cannot work around using normal gear or skills. Taunt yes, requiring 1 glyph to make it work = Instructor Raz all over again,

Except that this is completely different. Every tank has a fixate as far as I'm aware that lasts longer than the taunt CD. And warriors get free taunts (dunno about other classes with vig on the other tank).

And when does missing a taunt lead to a wipe?

Missing on Deathbringer - nope - unless you're right at the margin.
Putrice - maybe
LDW, Festergut - nope. With Fester you may need to taunt at 8 stacks instead of 9 - so there is a strategy built in if you're worried about taunt misses.

Others?

Taunt misses make the fight more challenging, stacking rune power, more stacks, etc, but they don't lead to a wipe. And there's enough fights where taunts are needed that it's a standard mechanic (even on trash pulls when one gets loose).

It's not like there's only a single fight in the game that taunt matters for, it's a standard, basic, encounter tool.

Nurasha
05-27-2010, 08:34 AM
I could think of Saurfang hc, where a missing taunt can be fatal.

Edgewalker
05-27-2010, 08:53 AM
Missing a taunt is only ever potentially fatal on HM Saurfang or Sindragosa, for every other fight it is completely irrelevant.
Glyph for those fights if you are worried about it... however in months of clearing ICC I have had maybe 3 taunts miss on bosses, and 0 death grips. It's not a big deal, and it will probably get changed.

gacktt
05-27-2010, 08:59 AM
Taunts going on the "spell" accuracy portion is ridiculous, a hit capped tank will be 3% below the spell cap. Missing taunts can be a real wiper on H-25 sindra/put/saur, yeah sure mocking blow/tauntshout but still.

Kahmal
05-27-2010, 12:58 PM
Those are not taunts. They are strictly Fixates. Taunts actually change threat table values while fixates do not.

Those abilities give you enough time for your taunt to come of of cooldown however thus stalling for time. However the issue still is on a fight like Heroic DBS being late on the taunt can result in him generating more runic power.

2ndNin
05-27-2010, 01:10 PM
It is not a separate issue really, our taunts are designed to use a hit table we cannot cap without sacrificing a lot of other stats for. If spell hit was worth half melée hit it would be fine. Instead we have to glyph for an incidental amount of hit, and doing so is outside of our regular roles. Ok a taunt miss is generally not a major issue (and no our fixates generally don't last long enough to get a second taunt in, paladins don't even have a fixate however they have two taunts), however why should it really be an issue at all?

If fights were designed and had a small 3% chance every 20s-3minutes of becoming much harder or even simply annoying because of a minority spec or glyph others would complain as well. Barring specific fights (resistance, ranged tank etc) a standard tank build should not be a liability as making it so makes balancing the encounter and tanks harder.

The game is and should be balanced around cookie cutter specs because requiring minority usage abilities to become pivotal is bad design when they are not common enough. If saurfang or sindragosa regularly used 3+ tanks and taunt order was irrelevant on swap it would be fine to miss because a backup is assumed, in a two tank world that backup doesn't exist so shouldn't be down to randomness.

jere
05-27-2010, 05:05 PM
Those abilities give you enough time for your taunt to come of of cooldown however thus stalling for time. Just be careful about that. They also add to the DR count of taunts. That won't matter on all fights, but some fights in heroic it will (for some reason Putricide comes to mind).

Jesauce
05-27-2010, 06:11 PM
I have to agree with Martie. I've wiped my raid a number of times due to taunts missing. Do I hate it? Of course. Do I want it to change? Not really. I love tanking and all, but really, you attack the mob, hammer through your rotation and avoid whatever nasty shit it's trying to throw at you. Having to worry about stuff outside of that, and gearing/reacting accordingly makes fights more interesting. I don't just want some easymode 'I hit this button, boss attacks me' mechanic. Putting it on the melee hit table makes sense, but it shouldn't simply have 100% hit chance.

Trading out glyphs and the such is just how things go. You gain the ability to do one thing better, so you should have to sacrifice for that.

Supermassive
05-27-2010, 10:59 PM
It does suck a bit that they miss.
But really, you don't have to waste out a glyph spot.
Pallies/dks can use the second taunt.

Wars/Druids can use the fixate which lasts just long enough to taunt again.
If your taunt misses within the next minute, god just hates you.

Mačl
05-28-2010, 03:08 AM
I'm currently ROLLING in hit rating(the melee variety, so my spell hit rating should be even higher) and I'm a draenei. Still I had missed taunts on LDW(which is'n really a biggie), on Saurfang(which is annoying) and Fester(which IS a whopper). All on normal modes.
Yes, I sometimes use Vig on my OT. But as of late, I severely outgear my OTs so Vig is best to use on my DPS/healers(dependant on set and setting).

I shall celebrate the day when I can permanently swap out the taunt glyph for something I would actually want to use. It's bad enough I have to spend 3 talent points and two glyphs to get my survival CDs down to 2min. This is just adding insult to injury.

There are fun choices(like not maxing out shield mastery so you get deep wounds), there are interesting choices(like spending points in fury to get 4/5 or 5/5 demo shout while giving up threat stats in arms) and there are stupid choices. I consider my glyph of taunt to be the stupidest choice Blizz has made me to choose, like, EVAR. Yes, I consider this even stupider than the old AP buff priests had on Inner Fire. That stupid.
End of.

Loganisis
05-28-2010, 08:28 AM
What about switching taunt to a minor glyph since there's really nothing much useful there :P

Darksend
05-29-2010, 04:36 PM
They should never ever make a boss tauntable ever again unless some specific encounter ability requires it (think kalecgos and the phasing)

/thread

(yes I realize this will suck for fights were the offtank cannot maintain vengeance stacks because he will never be able to keep up on threat but that is another story for another time)

squats
05-29-2010, 04:42 PM
I agree with darksend. Tank swaps are a boring and way overused mechanic on bosses. Almost to the point where the only thing tanks have to worry about is landing their taunt (and this is why the thread was started.. because it sucks).

Cleave soaking fights and tank swaps via real boss mechanics are fun, taunting back and forth throughout a 5-10 minute boss fight.. is not fun at all.

also, most tanks have other abilities they can use to taunt a second time to save their asses. And as long as the other tanks slow down when you taunt the boss, the DR wont matter because of how they work now.

Darksend
05-29-2010, 04:48 PM
They could even do creative things like "sindragosa's frost breath removes <insert name of the sub 35% aoe because I am blanking right now>"

Blizzard is caught in a web of its own good intentions. I have said this before, we will never EVER see another fight that is designed from the ground up to be solo tanked (things like morrowgar that can be solo tanked but is possibly easier with people splitting the lashes yes, but a straight up solo tank fight like archimonde, no. While typing that though I realized there actually have been a lot less single tank fights in the past than I thought there would be)

squats
05-29-2010, 04:54 PM
RoS was a fun tank swap fight (tho you didnt always use a real tank)

Linx boss in ZA was fun. A flat cleave fight, but both tanks had other things to do.

Council type bosses are fun



I dont want single tank fights.. i just want less taunt swaps. I want more taunt immune bosses so dps can learn to not be stupid again. ect ect ect.

oh, more CC fights plz.

2ndNin
05-29-2010, 06:58 PM
The problem with multiple tank fights (as Ghostcrawler noted) is that there has to be enough happening for 2+ tanks, yet (and the point GC missed) low enough healing requirements to keep them all standing (you couldn't have 2x HC LK damage throughput in the fight without sacrificing DPS for Healers).

I think though that this mindset is part of the WoW gamestyle, where each boss tends to be stand alone rather than being their own mini-raid. Most two+ tank fights we see involve an add section and a boss section, or two bosses with similar requirements. This was classed as boring to see / play rather than single tank fights.

Personally I like the mini-raid style encounters (council fights, large scaling adds that are actually an issue etc). We should really see more Sarth+3D encounters rather than single bosses. Of course some will fight alone and have mechanics that make them one tank or multiple (the taunt game) however there is far more flexibility in letting multiple tanks loose on an encounter (spirit phases, multiple adds, big adds, multiple bosses, splitting bosses, debuff fights, petrification fights, tank death / meltdown fights etc).

We cannot really get away from the taunt mechanic though without making threat more important as a tool. On Bloodboil it was too easy to get caught up in threat generation and become nearly impossible to get the boss switching as desired, it was a case often of get aggro then stop to allow the other tanks the chance to make up that active 10% so that the transitions could occur nicely. In the current world where TPS is unbalanced (Paladins going from godly, to OP, to relatively low on single targets for example over the expansion) simply won't work well. We need more tools and more balance for fights like this to work such that classes do not become liabilities without their taunts (bandaid fix makes threat differences irrelevant)

Bodasafa
05-29-2010, 08:15 PM
They could even do creative things like "sindragosa's frost breath removes <insert name of the sub 35% aoe because I am blanking right now>"

Blizzard is caught in a web of its own good intentions. I have said this before, we will never EVER see another fight that is designed from the ground up to be solo tanked (things like morrowgar that can be solo tanked but is possibly easier with people splitting the lashes yes, but a straight up solo tank fight like archimonde, no. While typing that though I realized there actually have been a lot less single tank fights in the past than I thought there would be)

Are you talking about boss fights that require only 1 tank? As in no adds for a OT or anything, just 1 tank?

If so that's really a bad move IMO. Tanks already have the smallest raid slots allocated to them. 2 on 10 and 2 (with the occasional 3rd) on 25. Ushering in single tank fights will only compound the problem. Personally I love multi tank fights, however I can agree I'm rather tired of the "Ill grab him first for 4 stacks , then tag your it...."

Darksend
05-30-2010, 04:58 AM
Are you talking about boss fights that require only 1 tank? As in no adds for a OT or anything, just 1 tank?

If so that's really a bad move IMO. Tanks already have the smallest raid slots allocated to them. 2 on 10 and 2 (with the occasional 3rd) on 25. Ushering in single tank fights will only compound the problem. Personally I love multi tank fights, however I can agree I'm rather tired of the "Ill grab him first for 4 stacks , then tag your it...."

No, I am talking about fights like sindragosa where it seems like they just threw the debuff on there to force it to be a 2 tank fight. Nothing is more boring than being the offtank and doing nothing till 35%. They need to stop making fights where the offtank is useless for so much of the fight.

edit: granted the last 35% is a LOT of fun (especially when trying to get the achievement on a hard mode kill) but still the first part of the fight..... BORINGGGGGGGGGG

Passive
05-30-2010, 05:21 AM
I couldn't agree more Darksend. One encounter I really enjoyed was Iron Council hard mode where the tank had to run away and die, meaning the other tank had to tank first. This WAS a taunt swap mechanic but I think a bit more inventive. Lady Deathwhisper hard mode was a great nod at old "tank swap without taunt" encounters however with the way tricks of the trade and misdirect are, there really isn't much too it other than swapping tricks/md to the OT when the MT hits 4 or 5 stacks.

The main problem is that encounters will feel forced if you always have to have adds or another boss. The feel of fighting one big massive dragon is pretty epic and it would be a shame to lose that by giving the off tank "something to do".

Darksend how would you have gone about the first phase of Sindragosa if you were to design it? What should this fight have done? Or do you think it should be more like the last phase the whole way through.

Darksend
05-30-2010, 06:40 AM
Re: Lady Deathwhisper HM

You can completely ignore the threat reduction by pumping every MD and tricks into the tank with a 5 stack since they still get that threat even with a 5 stack and just brute force the encounter.

Re: Sind

I honestly do not know, I just came up with 3-4 ideas but all of them felt "forced" because I agree with you, I hate forced tank swaps that feel artificial just for the sake of tank swaps.

Bodasafa
05-30-2010, 10:00 AM
No, I am talking about fights like sindragosa where it seems like they just threw the debuff on there to force it to be a 2 tank fight. Nothing is more boring than being the offtank and doing nothing till 35%. They need to stop making fights where the offtank is useless for so much of the fight.

edit: granted the last 35% is a LOT of fun (especially when trying to get the achievement on a hard mode kill) but still the first part of the fight..... BORINGGGGGGGGGG

On that I can totally agree. I am the OT for that fight ZZZzzzzz.

Kahmal
05-30-2010, 09:48 PM
I agree with darksend. Tank swaps are a boring and way overused mechanic on bosses. Almost to the point where the only thing tanks have to worry about is landing their taunt (and this is why the thread was started.. because it sucks).

Cleave soaking fights and tank swaps via real boss mechanics are fun, taunting back and forth throughout a 5-10 minute boss fight.. is not fun at all.



I agree with this and Darksend, tanking has become so boring where generally you just have to stand there generate threat (with much assistance from rogues and hunters) and hit taunt every now and then.

To be honest I practically felt like I was being carried through my ICC10 Hardmode group (5% buff) Since there is generally nothing significant a tank really has to. You can practically go into most encounters w/o knowing the way the fight works. You just need to know where to stand and when to taunt, meanwhile the DPS has to maximize damage while staying alive, while healers have it even harder avoiding the same things while keeping everyone alive.

Before Wrath tanks generally coordinated the way the fight would move, I remember myself alone wiped an entire 25 man raid cause I couldn't properly Main Tank The Lurker Below (I kno lol, but yea he's harder then most bosses in Wrath when you think about it) I kept getting Whirled off the platform. After doing some research I simply learned standing mid way in water is pro. But my point is nothing gets that complicated anymore.

Being able to tank certain bosses or mobs set you apart from other tanks. Being able to deal with how Lurker smacks you around and then pick up his adds (adds were trouble back then). Stance dancing through Nightbanes fears (on a day where I was absent my guild literally couldn't do it because the Warrior didn't kno how to stance dance somehow), and properly moving Hydross so you dont get multiple spawns. All of these are abilities gained through engaging a unique mechanic which keeps encounters interesting.

Teran
05-31-2010, 12:36 PM
Before Wrath tanks generally coordinated the way the fight would move, I remember myself alone wiped an entire 25 man raid cause I couldn't properly Main Tank The Lurker Below (I kno lol, but yea he's harder then most bosses in Wrath when you think about it) I kept getting Whirled off the platform. After doing some research I simply learned standing mid way in water is pro. But my point is nothing gets that complicated anymore.

Being able to tank certain bosses or mobs set you apart from other tanks. Being able to deal with how Lurker smacks you around and then pick up his adds (adds were trouble back then). Stance dancing through Nightbanes fears (on a day where I was absent my guild literally couldn't do it because the Warrior didn't kno how to stance dance somehow), and properly moving Hydross so you dont get multiple spawns. All of these are abilities gained through engaging a unique mechanic which keeps encounters interesting.

I hope you're kidding. Lurker Below was an instant kill for any competitive guild in BC. It sounds to me like you're saying tanking used to be fun because the guild you used to be in sucked. I don't mean any offense by saying this, but it is an important distinction to make. My guild did not need to stance dance to beat nighbane, we often didn't even have a warrior in the raid... but claiming a 10 man raid like Karazhan has complicated fights is a bit of a stretch no matter what skill level your guild is or was.

Being a good tank today is just as important as it was then, even more so if your guild is competitive. Fights aren't any more or less complicated than they were in the past, they are simply different... sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.

I personally like taunt switching as a mechanic, it may be over used in current encounters but when used as a way of forcing tanks to be precise over a period of time. Heroic Saurfang may not be the hardest fight, but I like that it lets you measure just how precisely your raid can play with a quantifiable score at the end that goes beyond kill or wipe.

Taunt switching is just one more thing tanks have to balance and if that were missing from the equation tanking would become as boring as a lot of people are claiming it already is.

Kahmal
05-31-2010, 03:44 PM
I hope you're kidding. Lurker Below was an instant kill for any competitive guild in BC. It sounds to me like you're saying tanking used to be fun because the guild you used to be in sucked. I don't mean any offense by saying this, but it is an important distinction to make. My guild did not need to stance dance to beat nighbane, we often didn't even have a warrior in the raid... but claiming a 10 man raid like Karazhan has complicated fights is a bit of a stretch no matter what skill level your guild is or was.

Being a good tank today is just as important as it was then, even more so if your guild is competitive. Fights aren't any more or less complicated than they were in the past, they are simply different... sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.

I personally like taunt switching as a mechanic, it may be over used in current encounters but when used as a way of forcing tanks to be precise over a period of time. Heroic Saurfang may not be the hardest fight, but I like that it lets you measure just how precisely your raid can play with a quantifiable score at the end that goes beyond kill or wipe.

Taunt switching is just one more thing tanks have to balance and if that were missing from the equation tanking would become as boring as a lot of people are claiming it already is.

No I'm not kidding....Lurker was an instant kill for any competitive guild, but when your tank isn't smart enough to avoid getting Spouted off the damn battlefield your entire raid is going to wipe. And unfortunately I wasn't. A tank that can stance dance Nightbane is indeed unneeded, but if you lack tremor totems and a "dwarf" priest things can get problematic. I'll admit I didn't raid with the more elite during TBC furthest I got was 5/6 SSC, 1/4 TK and 1/5 Hyjal but I as someone whose been tanking since vanilla I can tell the difference between encounters that are designed to challenge tanks and those that are not.

These days tanking raiding encounter doesn't feel much different then doing a 5 man since the encounters dont demand much from the tank except simple positioning and when to press taunt and generating threat isn't a challenge like it used to be due to the surplus of threat enhancements such as Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade.
So with such simplifications, tanking really doesn't feel much different then DPSing while standing infront of the boss, except that tanks are normally exempt from many of the bosses abilities.

Teran
05-31-2010, 08:05 PM
...but I as someone whose been tanking since vanilla I can tell the difference between encounters that are designed to challenge tanks and those that are not.

While you may feel this way, it is simply not true. You do not speak for me, and unless you're secretly on the blizzard raid and dungeon design team I doubt you know the first thing about blizzard's internal encounter design philosophy or intents.

It sounds as if you have a very narrow view of just what is challenging. It's just a guess, but Blizzard probably designs encounters around challenging an entire raid, not two or three of the twenty-five people. Sometimes an encounter may not seem challenging to you, but then you may not be doing all you can to increase raid efficiency as a whole. As a tank there's always something you could be doing better... and by "you" I mean "all of us tanks". Maybe it takes playing as dps and/or healing to know this simple truth, but tanking is about so much more than just keeping threat and staying alive.


These days tanking raiding encounter doesn't feel much different then doing a 5 man since the encounters dont demand much from the tank except simple positioning and when to press taunt and generating threat isn't a challenge like it used to be due to the surplus of threat enhancements such as Misdirection and Tricks of the Trade.

Misdirection mid fight is not an optimal ability for hunters to use, and tricks on a tank is a waste of dps. If you are relying on these consistently you are making your tanking easier at a cost of dps. These things might seem small but everything matters and cumulatively they add up.


So with such simplifications, tanking really doesn't feel much different then DPSing while standing infront of the boss, except that tanks are normally exempt from many of the bosses abilities.

If this is how you think things work then I have to humbly suggest that you're doing something wrong. Tanks may be exempt from certain abilities, but this is not unusual... nor is it unusual for melee dps, ranged dps, caster dps, and healers all to be immune to certain abilities based on positioning, mana pool, class role, and position on the threat list. Your implication that tanking is easy only because we don't get hit by certain crowd control abilities is just as silly as saying dpsing is easy only because they don't get hit by cleaves, breaths, and other abilities that would one hit kill any non-tank.

The bottom line is this. If you think tanking is too easy then perhaps it is time for a role or game change. I personally think that no matter how easy or difficult an encounter is, there is always something I can be doing better.

squats
05-31-2010, 08:44 PM
This thread isnt about tanking being too easy. Its about tanking being boring. Yeah sure you can do things to make the raid more efficient, but that wont make the mechanics of a fight any less boring to a tank.

squats
05-31-2010, 08:51 PM
I hope you're kidding. Lurker Below was an instant kill for any competitive guild in BC. It sounds to me like you're saying tanking used to be fun because the guild you used to be in sucked. I don't mean any offense by saying this, but it is an important distinction to make. My guild did not need to stance dance to beat nighbane, we often didn't even have a warrior in the raid... but claiming a 10 man raid like Karazhan has complicated fights is a bit of a stretch no matter what skill level your guild is or was.

Being a good tank today is just as important as it was then, even more so if your guild is competitive. Fights aren't any more or less complicated than they were in the past, they are simply different... sometimes in a good way, sometimes in a bad way.

I personally like taunt switching as a mechanic, it may be over used in current encounters but when used as a way of forcing tanks to be precise over a period of time. Heroic Saurfang may not be the hardest fight, but I like that it lets you measure just how precisely your raid can play with a quantifiable score at the end that goes beyond kill or wipe.

Taunt switching is just one more thing tanks have to balance and if that were missing from the equation tanking would become as boring as a lot of people are claiming it already is.

Saying taunt swaps force tanks to be precise is a bit of a stretch. It forces tanks to not fall asleep durring a fight, that is all.

Heroic Syndragosa is the only fight that i can think of that has a taunt swap that isnt boring as hell.

Also, your not looking at the picture that most of us are trying to paint. We are saying they need to get rid of taunt swaps and replace them with a different type of tank switch. Taunting back and fourth requires no concentration (i mean... common, how oftend does taunting late really wipe the raid?), and just is not fun at all.

Kahmal
05-31-2010, 08:56 PM
Sure there is always something a tank can be doing better but lately I stopped keeping up to date with Warrior tanking Theorycrafting since the for the most part the all a Warrior needs to do is know to keep Shield Slam on priority while facerolling Heroic Strike, tanks that dont know the beauty of Heroic Strike generally suck.

And I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard's intention to make a tanks role in encounters smaller then they used to be since bad tanks are easy to find and they'd rather not punish an entire raid because of it. Like I said I tanked 11/12 Heroic before the inflation of that damn buff and I really dont feel like I deserve to brag much about it.

Marrowgar - I simply need to follow or lead the other tanks around some stupid fire....meanwhile healers need to deal with high incoming damage while avoiding those same fires during the bonestorm.

Lady Deathwhisper - A bit more of a challenge I'll admit what with generating threat, feels like some old school encounters because of her taunt immunity, but tank swapping on Deathwhisper isn't even mandatory because of MD and Trix. Meanwhile a tank with his/her high health pool can disregard the ghost (not recommended) while healers and DPS need to stay on the move while doing their jobs.

Saurfang - I need to press the taunt button, and if assigned Shockwave an add, while ranged deal with adds that can lock them in place that will oneshot them if touched and healers must sustain an insane amount of healing where one wasted global can cost a life. (I've healed it on a paladin and I let a mark die cause I refreshed a Beacon

Festergut - once again hit the taunt button while standing in place, before you could see where the goo would be dropped DPS, and Healing had to maximize performance while watching Putrecide on a balcony chuck goo at you

Putrecide - Main Tank moves boss around depending on the fights current momentum, followed by a series of tank swaps, much more interesting then most other Hardmodes. Meanwhile the rest of the raid deals with that damn plague, goo, and pushing DPS hard enough to kill the Oozes. Votiles need to be handled carefully aswell.

Blood Princes - unless your the tanking the Shadow dude, you basically just stand where you are and move when you see a Shock Vortex spawn. While this fight is a joke on 25 man it's was one of our biggest hurdles in 10 man, since we didn't have much ranged. But as a tank there was jack I could do, or brag about after downing them since I just tanked the two Princes.

Blood Queen - if your raid is reliable enough both tanks can probably find a way to spam a cast sequence macro and go afk until the fear.

Valithria - I've yet to tank this on 25 player to be honest but on 10 man we prefer'd to solo tank it, which was very enjoyable as a warrior, the quick decision making and reaction time needed reminded me of Heroics like Shattered Halls.

Sindragosa - while most people can agree that this fight sucks, at least the tank swap required here isn't just a simple button press and there is more on the line, since many simple errors can cost the fight and I much enjoy the pressure. However I'm sure Healers have it even harder since they also need to clear their stacks, and heal through a lot of raid and tank damage, while making sure they dont blow up their raid in the process.

Lich King - haven't tanked Heroic LK but regular mode pre-buff is far more entertaining then the simple stand in the middle of the room mechanics we normally put up with. Here I'd tank LK in phase one use my vigilance and in combination of a mouse over taunting macro to keep adds on myself. Try to generate as much threat as I could on the raging spirits after picking them up quickly since we normally didn't raid with a hunter/rogue. Then having to move then close to LK w/o getting anyone blasted by their cone damage. Followed by coordinating around defiles, Valk Stuns where also my job and taunting whenever the tank on LK didn't have a CD for Soul Reaper.

So with the exception of a few fights in ICC I'm pretty sure the tank has the easiest job, I almost felt like I was carried to my Kingslayer title and I rarely feel the pressure I used to back in TBC, I only tend to get such feelings from healing these days.

Teran
06-02-2010, 12:33 AM
This thread isnt about tanking being too easy. Its about tanking being boring. Yeah sure you can do things to make the raid more efficient, but that wont make the mechanics of a fight any less boring to a tank.

I was referring to a specific fight (Deathbringer Saurfang), not all fights with a swap mechanic. As far as tanking being boring, that is in the eye of the beholder. Do you think dpsing a long string of giant feet while dodging fire and fire substitutes is "fun"? I don't think so. The fun in raiding comes from trying to become a better player with each boss kill.

I am refreshed by the challenge and once I know an encounter and all the factors that apply to me as a tank I can start looking at the encounter and all the factors that apply to the healers and dps. Once I know this I gain more control over the encounter because I understand the needs and risks my fellow raiders face in the encounter and through becoming efficient at my own job I can assist my guild mates with theirs so we become more efficient as a raid.



...And I'm pretty sure it was Blizzard's intention to make a tanks role in encounters smaller then they used to be since bad tanks are easy to find and they'd rather not punish an entire raid because of it...

I don't understand what you are trying to say with this comment. Do you really believe tanks are less important today than they were in BC or Vanilla? You're right, good tanks are hard to find... this is not a new trend starting in WotLK, this has always been the case. Additionally, it is difficult to find good healers and dps too. A raid may be canceled if you don't have a good tank show up, but the same is true for healers and dps. It is perhaps most noticeable with tanks because most guilds prefer not to have too many for fear of excessive sidelining.

Over simplifying raid encounters doesn't really prove anything because you can do it with any fight.

Marrowgar and Deathwhisper may not be ultra complicated fights but they serve as an introduction to the instance. It's rare for the first bosses of an instance to be truly difficult. Your comments on Saurfang are incorrect... in a computer game, all people ever do is push buttons at certain points. Screwing up as the tank adds more marks to the raid very quickly and while you don't directly suffer from this, your healers do and if you are sloppy you will wipe. In that particular fight the healers start off with the easiest job and end with the hardest, how hard the job actually becomes however is completely on the shoulders of the tanks and dps.

Your comments on festergut are interesting. Are you saying that all you need to do to kill festergut is survive, maintain threat, and most importantly, be aware of your surroundings? As I said before, over simplification doesn't really work because that is fundamentally true for all encounters, for all roles.

I'll agree with you on blood princes and blood queen. I rather like tanking the green dragon 25 man encounter. Each of the adds is a unique threat and trying to manage which need to die first, which needs to be interrupted, which needs to be faced away from the raid, and a few other factors is a lot of fun... the real issue with this fight though is that it only really gets hectic after a period of time and the soft enrage.

I disagree with your comments on Sindragosa. The fight is all on the tanks, botch the swap and it's a wipe. You must be aware of who is getting the debuffs, who is clearing their stacks, your own personal hp pool, maintaining threat, pre-emptively popping cooldowns if a frost breath is coming while you're stacked up... While not tanking you need to be communicating with the raid so you can clear your stacks in a timely manner so the other tank doesn't get one hit killed by a breath. The instant death element of the encounter also applies to the tanks. As a feral druid I also manage dropping the movement debuff from the frost breath.

We may have to agree to disagree however I think you are exaggerating the situation. Your role as a tank may not seem as obviously difficult or interesting as healers or dps (though I disagree) however you are in a unique position more so than the other roles to increase raid efficiency. Tank mistakes have a big negative impact on the raid, but an insightful tank who understands the encounter beyond his or her little part of it will have a big positive impact.

So with the exception of a few fights in ICC I'm pretty sure the tank has the easiest job, I almost felt like I was carried to my Kingslayer title and I rarely feel the pressure I used to back in TBC, I only tend to get such feelings from healing these days.[/QUOTE]

Kahmal
06-02-2010, 02:06 AM
I don't understand what you are trying to say with this comment. Do you really believe tanks are less important today than they were in BC or Vanilla? You're right, good tanks are hard to find... this is not a new trend starting in WotLK, this has always been the case. Additionally, it is difficult to find good healers and dps too. A raid may be canceled if you don't have a good tank show up, but the same is true for healers and dps. It is perhaps most noticeable with tanks because most guilds prefer not to have too many for fear of excessive sidelining.


First of all terrible healers and crappy DPS can easily be carried through a raid, DPS is expendable most of the time and good healers can pick up the slack of mediocre ones. If your tank's threat is terrible either the trigger happy DPS while die, or the rest of the DPS that can control themselves will have their numbers throttled. Encounters in TBC very did demand a bit more from tanks, encounters required a bit more movement, the number of required tanks varied from 1 to 5, making for a larger amount of possible encounter types. On top of those things, keeping yourself alive was a lot more emphasize thanks to crushing blows. Performing your job, while mantaining threat and trying to make sure you dont get crushed could make things a lot more ambiguous cause a Boss could quickly eat through your Shield Block charges and crush you and you'd have to react to it if you did survive. If I died I would check my combat log to see if I fucked up. WoTLK I might aswell just turn around give my healers the "WTF!" look.





Your comments on Saurfang are incorrect... in a computer game, all people ever do is push buttons at certain points. Screwing up as the tank adds more marks to the raid very quickly and while you don't directly suffer from this, your healers do and if you are sloppy you will wipe.


If a tank can't pay attention to his fellow tanks debuffs, and then press taunt when he realizes he has that bad debuff....I really dont know what to say. I dont see how my statement on Saurfang didn't show tanks have it easy on that fight. (melee even easier)



Your comments on festergut are interesting. Are you saying that all you need to do to kill festergut is survive, maintain threat, and most importantly, be aware of your surroundings? As I said before, over simplification doesn't really work because that is fundamentally true for all encounters, for all roles.



I said that the DPS and healers need to be aware of their surroundings, if Festergut wasn't considered a DPS race the tank could consider going afk when he's not tanking, infact with the ICC buff he might as well.



I disagree with your comments on Sindragosa. The fight is all on the tanks, botch the swap and it's a wipe. You must be aware of who is getting the debuffs, who is clearing their stacks, your own personal hp pool, maintaining threat, pre-emptively popping cooldowns if a frost breath is coming while you're stacked up... While not tanking you need to be communicating with the raid so you can clear your stacks in a timely manner so the other tank doesn't get one hit killed by a breath. The instant death element of the encounter also applies to the tanks. As a feral druid I also manage dropping the movement debuff from the frost breath.

We may have to agree to disagree however I think you are exaggerating the situation. Your role as a tank may not seem as obviously difficult or interesting as healers or dps (though I disagree) however you are in a unique position more so than the other roles to increase raid efficiency. Tank mistakes have a big negative impact on the raid, but an insightful tank who understands the encounter beyond his or her little part of it will have a big positive impact.


I gave Sindragosa credit as an encounter that could challenge tanks, but I was refering to Heroic Sindragosa, and then stating that Healers have it WAY harder in my opinion. I'm not sure if you've done it but while the tank is engaging in the same mechanics as regular mode for the most part, the Unchained Magic debuff that healers and casters must deal with becomes a bit more of pain. Deciding to cast with Unchained wont result in blowing up the ignorant player, but instead proceed to blow up all surrounding raid members, and in phase 3 people are pretty damn clumped up, one Unchained explosion can kill about half the raid if not more. Now since Sindragosa isn't exactly a DPS race casters should just be patient and monitor the Unchained magic for when it will come out that way they dont cast accidently when it appears on them.

But imagine a healer, think about a Holy Paladin who needs to deal with moving properly with Ice Blocks, standing on the correct side to make sure they too are not frozen, while healing the tank on the Sindy and then seeing his/her magic debuff stacks is dangerously high, calling out that he/she is going to clear his/her stacks and then see's that the other Holy Paladin or tank healer must move cause he has the next Frost Beacon, and the tanks health is taking a nose dive, panicing for the tanks life and seeing that his/her stacks will clear in time he jumps out for that day saving Holy Light only to see half the raid blown to oblivion because he/she just got the Unchained debuff, in a very tight spot.

Not saying the tank isn't important since I'll admit a whole lot of shit can go wrong for the tank that fight, but it just sounds to me like healers get the harder end of the deal.

Edgewalker
06-02-2010, 08:33 AM
Rose-tinted glasses guys. I've main tanked in 3 top 20 world guilds since Vanilla and there have been a handful of challenging tank fights in every expansion. For every Kael'Thalas or Hydross or Archimonde there were 10 Tidehunters or Supremuses or Garrs. Tanking will always have an element of "ease" to it compared to DPS or healing, but on the flipside, tanks need to be completely reliable, need to maintain a knowledge of correct itemization, and need to always play at 100% if you want to make each attempt count.
Tanking has switched from threat based and itemization based to more of a cooldown and positioning role, but it's still challenging, and still pretty damn fun.


Edit - Also Teran, Lurker was still challenging for a lot of guilds. Nightbane's original incarnation was definitely challenging for every guild and required a precise raid makeup, and from your snide, elitist comments I am guessing you never saw that version of him. No reason for that attitude.

Kanzer
06-02-2010, 03:30 PM
As a raid leader, theres a reason why I prefer tanking instead of DPSing, and thats because I find it easier to do so while making calls, watching the raid, watching my timers, etc, etc.

I've tanked since Vanilla, first as a warrior, now as my DK, and I have to say I agree with Edgewalker here in terms of the challenging to easy fights to tank ratio.

The topic has come up in the guild a couple of times, and as I said...if any role has it rough in ICC, its definitely the healers. If anyone has it easy its the tanks. Sindragosa/LK are the only two encounters I consider having any challenge at all in terms of tanking, and even then for Sindy its only during Phase 3, and even then healers have it worse, especially in heroic mode.

So I'm in the mindset that I'd love to see more challenging fights from a tank perspective, and would love mechanics to make it less mind numbing. But this is just as far as simple boss mechanics go, I still enjoy tanking alot, as theres alot of thought that needs to be put into it, and you actually have to manage cooldowns properly instead of just using them whenever they are available. Its just a simple matter of what makes the game enjoyable to you.

And yes, original Nightbane was a terror.

Kahmal
06-03-2010, 01:37 AM
As a raid leader, theres a reason why I prefer tanking instead of DPSing, and thats because I find it easier to do so while making calls, watching the raid, watching my timers, etc, etc.



I used to love tanking, since I first went Prot in TBC,I only tanked as Fury in Vanilla, and I used to resent DPS as trigger happy and expendable assets to the raid. (jerk) I was forced to go DPS during Wrath since I had the best off set and we needed a DPS warrior, it was then I noticed that Tanking feels pretty much like DPSing while standing infront of the boss, minus the large numbers.



So I'm in the mindset that I'd love to see more challenging fights from a tank perspective, and would love mechanics to make it less mind numbing. But this is just as far as simple boss mechanics go, I still enjoy tanking alot, as theres alot of thought that needs to be put into it, and you actually have to manage cooldowns properly instead of just using them whenever they are available. Its just a simple matter of what makes the game enjoyable to you.

And yes, original Nightbane was a terror.

I feel that encounters that are challenging from the tanks perspective effects the entire raid thus adding new elements to the fight which keep them interesting.

Rabban
06-03-2010, 03:53 AM
I skimed the last couple of pages of theis thread but on the first couple people where talking about DK's having 2 taunts. What are they? Obviously Dark command and most people seem to think Death Grip.

My understanding of death grip is it forces the target to attack you for 3 seconds but dose nothing for agro corect me if I'm wrong but that is not a taunt is it?

Teran
06-07-2010, 01:00 PM
I gave Sindragosa credit as an encounter that could challenge tanks, but I was refering to Heroic Sindragosa, and then stating that Healers have it WAY harder in my opinion. I'm not sure if you've done it but while the tank is engaging in the same mechanics as regular mode for the most part, the Unchained Magic debuff that healers and casters must deal with becomes a bit more of pain. Deciding to cast with Unchained wont result in blowing up the ignorant player, but instead proceed to blow up all surrounding raid members...

I don't know why you'd differentiate this from any other pool of fire on the ground except that in many cases it is even easier to deal with because a caster has two options... stop casting to negate the effect, or move away from the party and cast from a safe distance. Of course it's not as easy as it sounds in the context of Sindragosa phase 3, but then neither is the tank swap as you have a very limited window of time to drop your stack and get back out there to save the other tank. This requires a lot of personal decision making as a tank and in my opinion is exactly the opposite of the fight until that point because frankly it goes from being probably the slowest paced fight in the instance to the fastest paced fight.

I won't say it is easier or harder than what the healers have to deal with but in the case of healers communication can often mean the difference between survival and death but with the tank swap communication is unlikely to help unless you're telling the other guy to shieldwall the next breath... and that only works once during the encounter. Healers can often risk another stack or stepping away from the raid, tanks have fewer options and those they do have are less forgiving.


Tanking has switched from threat based and itemization based to more of a cooldown and positioning role, but it's still challenging, and still pretty damn fun.

Edit - Also Teran, Lurker was still challenging for a lot of guilds. Nightbane's original incarnation was definitely challenging for every guild and required a precise raid makeup, and from your snide, elitist comments I am guessing you never saw that version of him. No reason for that attitude.

Well said, I agree completely. As for Nightbane, there was an optimal raid makeup but it was not the only choice people had. As an alliance guild if we did not have a warrior in the raid we had a feral tank and often had a dwarf priest. Later on we had Shamans as well but the fight was less an issue at that point. If we didn't have a reliable fear counter we used what we had and prayed we had no non-tank resists.

As for your final comment, I try not to make assumptions about what people have or haven't seen. Frankly it doesn't really matter to me because anyone can have insight on the topic whether they saw the fight from the perspective of dps, tank, or healer. It is not my intent to be elitist and as far as I can tell, the person who I was typing to did not take what I said as being insulting.

On the internet, we're all tone deaf. I would be happy to clarify or re-phrase anything you found offensive in my post.


I skimed the last couple of pages of theis thread but on the first couple people where talking about DK's having 2 taunts. What are they? Obviously Dark command and most people seem to think Death Grip.

My understanding of death grip is it forces the target to attack you for 3 seconds but dose nothing for agro corect me if I'm wrong but that is not a taunt is it?

Based on tool tip descriptions it looks like it functions like other tanks aoe taunts. If this is the case then it doesn't change threat but may keep the enemy on you long enough to put a real taunt on him. There could also be something additional in the movement mechanic but I know little about death knight tanks as my guild unfortunately does not have one.

Kahmal
06-07-2010, 06:55 PM
I don't know why you'd differentiate this from any other pool of fire on the ground except that in many cases it is even easier to deal with because a caster has two options... stop casting to negate the effect, or move away from the party and cast from a safe distance. Of course it's not as easy as it sounds in the context of Sindragosa phase 3, but then neither is the tank swap as you have a very limited window of time to drop your stack and get back out there to save the other tank. This requires a lot of personal decision making as a tank and in my opinion is exactly the opposite of the fight until that point because frankly it goes from being probably the slowest paced fight in the instance to the fastest paced fight.

Dropping your stacks is a lot easier them most people think, many people stay behind the Iceblock until there stack completly drops off, what they dont know is that they're actually wasting valuable time doing that. If you look closely at Sindragosa in phase 3 you'll notice that she pulses an Arcane Explosion like animation about every 3 seconds. Thats the magic debuff she applies, so really all you need to do is dip behind the Iceblock until your around 3 seconds wait for her to pulse again and then run back out even if you still have the debuff because it will fall off before she reapplies it.

Joebacsi21
07-11-2010, 06:36 PM
I'm tanking as a paladin, so my statements maybe incorrect for other classas, but my opinion is making sure that taunt always hits is more important from the raid's PoV than ie. 10% more damage from judgements. Threat shouldn't be an issue, but if you miss a taunt, then make a Mocking Blow to keep the boss on yourself till your taunt will be off cd, you can still cause a big problem. There is a risk, that the boss become taunt immune if you use 2 or 3 taunt effects in a short time window, and the other tank can't taunt back when he/she should. It's like backstabbing the other tank, as the raid will realise the fact, that he/she couldn't taunt the boss back and they will blame the other tank - who didn't anything wrong. I say, it is always worth to make everything run smoothly as you can.

I think that the current mechanics of taunt is nice, and at least something motivates the tanks to get close to the hitcap. I'm afraid otherways tanks would almost completely ignore the importance of hit rating. One of my guildmates told me, taunts didn't worked in the past like now - they made the boss/mob attack you, but didn't threat itself, like the fixate effects. In other ways, you had x seconds to get in front of the dps in threat, who overaggroed you. So asking to make taunts always hit without any hit or glyph is nonsense I think.

I think tanking isn't just about to survive things. You have to pick up multiple targets immediately as well. If you know that 1 of 10 taunts can miss, then you should keep in mind, that missed taunt is a potential wipe (as the mob will oneshot one or more of the healers during you wait for your wasted taunt cd). A reasonable tank couldn't let this to happen. So, to summarize the things: don't underestimate the importance of hit, and if you want your taunt to always hit, then do whatever you can to make things like that.

Rennadrel
07-11-2010, 09:11 PM
Taunts miss for all classes, and they really shouldn't. Such a stupid thing that they miss, you have few oh shit buttons otherwise to grab back aggro during some boss fights, and the last thing you want is Lich King pimp slapping your DPS around because your taunt missed, or a Shambling Horror turning and smacking your ranged upside the head and one shotting them.

Kahmal
07-11-2010, 10:15 PM
Keep in mind before WoTLK most bosses weren't even Tauntable, if you pulled aggro, unless you were a Mage/Hunter/Rogue or had very fast BoPing Paladins.....you died..

Whatever bosses were tauntable was because of the mechanics of the fight. Hence why if a boss is supposed to be taunted....I shouldn't have to waist a glyph slot for it to not miss....

Quinafoi
07-12-2010, 08:01 AM
Is a glyph wasted if it helps you succeed?

By your argument, Glyph of Taunt is a worthless glyph. So, when you tell Blizzard that Glyph of Taunt is worthless, the first thing they will do, is find away to make it worth something by making missed taunts something to worry about. There, they fixed the problem.

Insahnity
07-12-2010, 08:33 AM
Is a glyph wasted if it helps you succeed?

By your argument, Glyph of Taunt is a worthless glyph. So, when you tell Blizzard that Glyph of Taunt is worthless, the first thing they will do, is find away to make it worth something by making missed taunts something to worry about. There, they fixed the problem.

This.

Why dumb down things? If taunts always hit, that is one less thing to worry about, making tanking even more boring. And let us say for the sake of argument they DID make a talent or minor glyph which adds 17% hit. They would then be forced to do something else to challenge you.

It's a delicate balance, keeping it simple for the common denominator versus making a fight interesting enough to not have the top 30% percentile of the skilled tanks just leave in disgust.

Shieldie
07-12-2010, 08:37 AM
ive said this before, not everyone agrees with me yet i will stand by it.
theres threshold inwhich hit becomes a survivability stat. If you are missing taunts and causing wipes, its not blizzards fault, its up to you, as a tank to make sure it doesnt happen. think of the glyph as a survivability glyph, raid survivability.

towelliee
07-12-2010, 10:00 AM
This.

Why dumb down things? If taunts always hit, that is one less thing to worry about, making tanking even more boring. And let us say for the sake of argument they DID make a talent or minor glyph which adds 17% hit. They would then be forced to do something else to challenge you.


Taunting isn't exciting to begin with. Taunt's may have been meant to miss or not dunno. But IMHO a taunt should never miss. I hate the fact that I need to glyph for Righteous Defense just to reach 17% hit. I mean at least put it on the melee hit and not spell hit cap.

Darksend
07-12-2010, 12:41 PM
Taunting isn't exciting to begin with. Taunt's may have been meant to miss or not dunno. But IMHO a taunt should never miss. I hate the fact that I need to glyph for Righteous Defense just to reach 17% hit. I mean at least put it on the melee hit and not spell hit cap.

Already done, taunts are melee hit table in beta atm

Chamenas
07-12-2010, 01:15 PM
This.

Why dumb down things? If taunts always hit, that is one less thing to worry about, making tanking even more boring. And let us say for the sake of argument they DID make a talent or minor glyph which adds 17% hit. They would then be forced to do something else to challenge you.

It's a delicate balance, keeping it simple for the common denominator versus making a fight interesting enough to not have the top 30% percentile of the skilled tanks just leave in disgust.

It doesn't dumb it down. Especially for classes with only one taunt. If a taunt misses, there's nothing you can do until it comes back off of CD, or until someone other than you manages to find a way to quickly shift threat to you. That's not fun, nor complicated, nor an interesting mechanic.

There are many ways to make tanking interesting and exciting, and something where skilled tanks can excel. Keeping taunts on spell hit so that they miss even when you're "hit capped" for most of your abilities is not one of those ways.

Insahnity
07-13-2010, 03:39 PM
Already done, taunts are melee hit table in beta atm

God Damn it. I loved having Warrior worry about Spell Hit Cap. Made me feel good about giving them Dalaran Intellect and such.

Kahmal
07-14-2010, 05:27 PM
This.

Why dumb down things? If taunts always hit, that is one less thing to worry about, making tanking even more boring. And let us say for the sake of argument they DID make a talent or minor glyph which adds 17% hit. They would then be forced to do something else to challenge you.

It's a delicate balance, keeping it simple for the common denominator versus making a fight interesting enough to not have the top 30% percentile of the skilled tanks just leave in disgust.

How the hell does a taunt missing a boss make things more exciting? It does nothing but cause potential problems, and to use such a lame Glyph to make sure it never happens over a far more interesting one is stupid.

I'm all for Taunts missing on trash, now that I find interesting cause then you have to adjust the strategy you had for tanking those 4+ mobs or so such as charging it instead and slamming your shield against him to get his attention.

Goros
07-14-2010, 06:33 PM
Then gem for the correct amount of hit and quit whining, or glyph it. You want to tank with less than 8% hit, deal with the problems it brings.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

uglybbtoo
07-14-2010, 07:12 PM
How the hell does a taunt missing a boss make things more exciting? It does nothing but cause potential problems, and to use such a lame Glyph to make sure it never happens over a far more interesting one is stupid.

I'm all for Taunts missing on trash, now that I find interesting cause then you have to adjust the strategy you had for tanking those 4+ mobs or so such as charging it instead and slamming your shield against him to get his attention.

It's another mechanism to make the fights a challenge else we get to where we are now that all the fights are boring as hell.

If idiots can't use there fixates to hold the boss until there taunt is back off CD then seriously they shouldnt be tanking.

I peronally want them to bring the old fear mechanism back that anyone feared was off the agro table.

At least I hear that CC will be back in cata .. thankly we might get back to actually have some interesting fights.

Darksend
07-14-2010, 08:30 PM
It's another mechanism to make the fights a challenge else we get to where we are now that all the fights are boring as hell.

If idiots can't use there fixates to hold the boss until there taunt is back off CD then seriously they shouldnt be tanking.

I peronally want them to bring the old fear mechanism back that anyone feared was off the agro table.

At least I hear that CC will be back in cata .. thankly we might get back to actually have some interesting fights.

If blizzard wants to use taunts as a fight mechanic, that boss should not have taunts be allowed to miss against it, end of story. Now, if they want to make it a "taunting here might make the fight easier but is not required" I am all for taunts being allowed to miss.

ICC fights:
deathbringer: taunts should not be allowed to miss with as much as that heals for on heroic.
fest: the debuff applications are far enough apart that you should taunt early enough to account for a resist and not even have to use a fixate
put: again they are far enough apart that proper timing means you will not have to rely on a fixate to fill the gap if you get a resist
sind: taunts should not be allowed to miss, especially since relying on a fixate means if you screw it up the other tank is behind a block already and the raid will get breathed/cleaved

but as I already said, taunts are based of melee hit in beta right now so this discussion is kind of pointless.

Kanzer
07-15-2010, 10:43 AM
Then gem for the correct amount of hit and quit whining, or glyph it. You want to tank with less than 8% hit, deal with the problems it brings.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Thanks for your amazing contribution to this discussion.

Darksend explained it pretty well, its no fun failing all you can eat on Sindy due to a taunt miss and the tank having no fall back second taunt. Wasn't fun, or exciting, just frustrating.

Now princess Huhuran back in the day, having to tank swamp on a untauntable mob, that was fun and exciting, sorta. Kind of like Deatwhisper...

I'm glad to see taunt is going on melee hit.

Kyoki
07-15-2010, 10:56 AM
Then gem for the correct amount of hit and quit whining, or glyph it. You want to tank with less than 8% hit, deal with the problems it brings.
Sent from my Droid using Tapatalk

Well considering its 17% and you have to use a major glyph spot one that could you know otherwise be used for a survival glyph. Blizzard obviously thought it was a big enough issue to change it to melee hit so were not the only ones complaing. Forcing people to use a glyph just to hit the cap goes against everything blizzard has been trying to do throught all of wrath.


Im glad to hear taunts are now being based off melee hit in beta.

Kahmal
07-15-2010, 11:40 AM
Now princess Huhuran back in the day, having to tank swamp on a untauntable mob, that was fun and exciting, sorta. Kind of like Deatwhisper...

I'm glad to see taunt is going on melee hit.

I too miss the Tank swaps that just didn't require a single button press. Lady Deathwhisper brings back that feeling, only difference is in WoTLK DPS is allowed to be so much more reckless.

Goros
07-15-2010, 01:09 PM
Thanks for your amazing contribution to this discussion.

Darksend explained it pretty well, its no fun failing all you can eat on Sindy due to a taunt miss and the tank having no fall back second taunt. Wasn't fun, or exciting, just frustrating.

Now princess Huhuran back in the day, having to tank swamp on a untauntable mob, that was fun and exciting, sorta. Kind of like Deatwhisper...

I'm glad to see taunt is going on melee hit.

By "correct amount of hit" I mean get to 8% hit, and then glyph, bringing you to 16% or more. I'm glad it's going to melee hit too, but if you KNOW you're having a problem with it, fix the problem. If you have a dranei in the raid you're at 17%.


Well considering its 17% and you have to use a major glyph spot one that could you know otherwise be used for a survival glyph. Blizzard obviously thought it was a big enough issue to change it to melee hit so were not the only ones complaing. Forcing people to use a glyph just to hit the cap goes against everything blizzard has been trying to do throught all of wrath.


Im glad to hear taunts are now being based off melee hit in beta. Complaining to get game mechanics changed is nice and all, but learning to play with the mechanics you have is what makes you a good player.

If you know you're wiping (or potentially wiping) from a taunt miss on a bossfight for whatever reason...and it's a regular problem or you know it's even possible...

Wouldn't that make the 8% from the major glyph the BEST survival glyph you could POSSIBLY take at that time? Since not having it means having a chance of wiping the raid?

I play a DK tank, and personally I've never missed a boss taunt yet in ICC, but I also have a little over 8% hit and over 6.5% expertise, but I haven't gemmed or enchanted for either, it just happened the way my gear fell. But I notice when I have a pally or warrior offtanking with me, their taunts miss over half the time (cooldowns 4tw). I haven't seen my druid offtank miss either...but I'm sure it happens.

Kazeyonoma
07-15-2010, 01:42 PM
Have fun working out a 8% hit set that contains either high HP or high frost resistance to tank heroic Sindragosa.

Kanzer
07-15-2010, 02:41 PM
By "correct amount of hit" I mean get to 8% hit, and then glyph, bringing you to 16% or more. I'm glad it's going to melee hit too, but if you KNOW you're having a problem with it, fix the problem. If you have a dranei in the raid you're at 17%.

Complaining to get game mechanics changed is nice and all, but learning to play with the mechanics you have is what makes you a good player.

If you know you're wiping (or potentially wiping) from a taunt miss on a bossfight for whatever reason...and it's a regular problem or you know it's even possible...

Wouldn't that make the 8% from the major glyph the BEST survival glyph you could POSSIBLY take at that time? Since not having it means having a chance of wiping the raid?

That is flawed reasoning, considering taunt doesn't miss often enough to make a major glyph slot worth it, or 'the best' survival glyph to take. Its effectively saying take something thats only useful a very small percentage of the time because the game mechanics are dumb. And get the idea out of your head that this is a bunch of complaining, this is a discussion about whether people think taunt mechanics are flawed right now, which most people agree, they are. And obviously blizzard agrees as well, hence the change in Cataclysm.


I play a DK tank, and personally I've never missed a boss taunt yet in ICC, but I also have a little over 8% hit and over 6.5% expertise, but I haven't gemmed or enchanted for either, it just happened the way my gear fell. But I notice when I have a pally or warrior offtanking with me, their taunts miss over half the time (cooldowns 4tw). I haven't seen my druid offtank miss either...but I'm sure it happens.

Considering your very limited experience in ICC on your DK, this isn't saying much. Your tank spec isn't using glyph of Dark Command, so unless your gemmed out the wazoo with hit gems (which you said you weren't) I'm pretty sure you've missed plenty of taunts, just because it wasn't critical, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. You also apparently havn't done any heroics on the DK, so again, experience...yeah. Oh, and our druid tank misses taunt all the time, wiped us on Heroic Sindy a few times, so he had to ditch a useful glyph for the taunt glyph since he didn't have a fallback like DKs or Warriors.

Kazeyonoma
07-15-2010, 05:53 PM
I've had Taunt miss, realize it missed, hit Mocking blow, get that parried, realize it got parried, then hit aoe taunt! as blood beast spawned... and they raped my face... Awesome! glyphing taunt so I don't have to go through this, because it is really the ONLY hard part of the fight as a tank? kind of stupid...

uglybbtoo
07-15-2010, 08:48 PM
And thats sort of the point it's this dumbing down of bits of randomness that takes the challenge out of all the encounters and gives us where we are heading boredom.

Prince in kara was a fun if slightly frustrating fight because depending where the hellfire totems landed made the fight easy or hard. Under the logic we have in this thread we need to know the exact order and placement they fall because hell we can't have an encounter with a bit of randomness in it cause we might fail.

Skill can overcome randomness most of the time and all this sort of thinking in the thread is take the skill out of the game like CC and fear and anything that isnt remotely controllable cause hell we cant have a wipe on a boss.

I like alot of old school players really really dislike where this is all going basically what you are all asking for is a fun fight for your lootz with guaranteed success.

Hell why don't we put a cheat button in like solataire so you can always get that kill and you can be doubly proud of the times you get the kill without using the cheat button.

Kahmal
07-15-2010, 09:48 PM
A common thing we've been saying in this thread though is if an Encounter is based on Taunting Mechanics, I shouldn't have to Glyph it so it doesn't miss.

Other then that I'm fine with taunts missing anywhere else. Back in TBC when tanking 3+ mobs was a pain as a Warrior having a Taunt miss only complicated things further but made them more interesting and fun.

Tanking in Wrath is lame, missing a Taunt on Sindragosa makes it lamer.

Goros
07-15-2010, 10:45 PM
I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.

Kahmal
07-15-2010, 11:25 PM
I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.

.....Rage? It's the Theory and Mechanics Discussion forum, were supposed to discuss such things, this is far from a stupid post that only a few people post on and shoot down as an irrelevant issue. And who knows this topic might have helped make Blizzard decide to put Taunt on the Hit table.

Fledern
07-16-2010, 03:31 AM
By "correct amount of hit" I mean get to 8% hit, and then glyph, bringing you to 16% or more. I'm glad it's going to melee hit too, but if you KNOW you're having a problem with it, fix the problem. If you have a dranei in the raid you're at 17%.

Complaining to get game mechanics changed is nice and all, but learning to play with the mechanics you have is what makes you a good player.

If you know you're wiping (or potentially wiping) from a taunt miss on a bossfight for whatever reason...and it's a regular problem or you know it's even possible...

Wouldn't that make the 8% from the major glyph the BEST survival glyph you could POSSIBLY take at that time? Since not having it means having a chance of wiping the raid?

I play a DK tank, and personally I've never missed a boss taunt yet in ICC, but I also have a little over 8% hit and over 6.5% expertise, but I haven't gemmed or enchanted for either, it just happened the way my gear fell. But I notice when I have a pally or warrior offtanking with me, their taunts miss over half the time (cooldowns 4tw). I haven't seen my druid offtank miss either...but I'm sure it happens.

I play 3 different tank classes & have raided with all of them. (Warrior, DK, paladin - cba to level a druid too :P) DK and pala have secondary taunts. They also have ranged damage attacks that they can use in a jifffy to grab loose adds, etc. ie they have the tools needed built in to do their job. I really havent felt the need to glyph for taunt on those toons (though i still would do it if i were doing heroics, just to be sure). The DK toon also found it easy to hit the hitcap too, way way easier than my warrior.

OK so i glyph for taunt on warrior, big deal you say? Add that i need to use my remaining two glyph slots to get my major cooldowns to levels required for fights - something which comes again built in on the other toons. So, when playing my warrior i'm having to sacrifice survivability that my other toons already have built in to do the same job that the other toons can also do better with their built in tools.

Consider Lich King fight. I usually tank the horrors there and we usually dont have misdirects available. The mobs are lvl 83. So while on my warrior, i have to use a taunt glyph, meaning i sacrifice a shield block glyph that would've contributed a LOT to my survival when the two enrage (remember, no hunter = no tranq). A missed taunt = dead somebody as they spawn out of range of mocking blow and challanging shout would TOTALLY ruin the positionings. On the dk, i can use deathcoil, deathgrip, ranged icy touch, dark command, so have many tools to pick up a mob at range without sacrificing any major glyph slot.

Taunts missing where taunts are required is just "uninteresting game play". Glad they fixed it.

Oh and for your last comment, this forum is for people to come & discuss ideas. This isnt whining, this is mechanics analysis.

Kanzer
07-16-2010, 04:54 AM
I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.

Like I said before, we're having a discussion. The only one raging is you, but thanks for making it clear that you still have nothing productive to add to this thread. Moving on...



And thats sort of the point it's this dumbing down of bits of randomness that takes the challenge out of all the encounters and gives us where we are heading boredom.

Prince in kara was a fun if slightly frustrating fight because depending where the hellfire totems landed made the fight easy or hard. Under the logic we have in this thread we need to know the exact order and placement they fall because hell we can't have an encounter with a bit of randomness in it cause we might fail.

Skill can overcome randomness most of the time and all this sort of thinking in the thread is take the skill out of the game like CC and fear and anything that isnt remotely controllable cause hell we cant have a wipe on a boss.

I like alot of old school players really really dislike where this is all going basically what you are all asking for is a fun fight for your lootz with guaranteed success.

Hell why don't we put a cheat button in like solataire so you can always get that kill and you can be doubly proud of the times you get the kill without using the cheat button.

Skill has nothing to do with a taunt missing on a boss fight that requires a timely tank swap, such as Heroic Sindragosa. No one likes getting a boss to 5%, perfect execution, only to wipe because of something silly like a taunt missing and then secondary taunt missing/getting parried right after, when it was required, there's nothing skillful about it, just flawed design. And who said anything about taking out CC and fear? I think you are missing the point of the topic.

Ion
07-16-2010, 02:04 PM
I guess I'm just going to say exactly what we tell people that are beating a dead horse they can't do anything to change...(especially since it's changing in caty).

SUCK IT UP AND STOP WHINING. Get over it, the world goes on...when a game turns you into a flaming asshole on some anonymous forums you might want to take a deep breath and walk away for a few minutes.

Speaking of flaming assholes on some anonymous forums...

And to contribute usefully...I agree that on fights like DBS and Sindragosa (and to a lesser extent Festergut) it's absurd that you can miss the boss with a taunt. For warriors it's less of a big deal (though Kaze pointed out a possible problem even for us), but certainly bears are lacking in options and even DKs and pallies can have problems.

To be honest the entire idea of tauntable bosses is a pretty uninteresting one and leads to poor play all around. I'd rather they just made bosses un-tauntable again, and if they DO want to make hard tank swaps part of an encounter, then just make the taunt always hit the boss.

Honestly though, hard tank swaps aren't a terribly interesting mechanic anyway.

Kojiyama
07-18-2010, 01:45 AM
I do wish tank swaps were done in a way that avoided the simple use of Taunt, but Taunt as a skill should not miss. It has never been fun and it has never been a good mechanic to have in the game. The only thing it does is cause random wipes--and nobody likes that.

More things should be Taunt immune, but leaving a chance for the skill itself to miss as a 'skill' element is really barking up the wrong tree.

uglybbtoo
07-18-2010, 06:46 PM
Skill has nothing to do with a taunt missing on a boss fight that requires a timely tank swap, such as Heroic Sindragosa. No one likes getting a boss to 5%, perfect execution, only to wipe because of something silly like a taunt missing and then secondary taunt missing/getting parried right after, when it was required, there's nothing skillful about it, just flawed design. And who said anything about taking out CC and fear? I think you are missing the point of the topic.


And thats exactly the point why should 5% be any different to 95% .. Even patchwork had and enrage close to death that used to wipe groups.

This whole topic is flawed and I get the point just violently disagree with it .. I will lobby to get your solitaire "cheat button" installed for you all.

Martie
07-18-2010, 06:58 PM
And thats exactly the point why should 5% be any different to 95% .. Even patchwork had and enrage close to death that used to wipe groups.

This whole topic is flawed and I get the point just violently disagree with it .. I will lobby to get your solitaire "cheat button" installed for you all.
Patchwerk doesn't wipe you if you have perfect execution of the fight, and it's not about wiping. Wiping is part of the game.
But I don't like games with a random wipe chance. I don't like it when games have a "you die and there is nothing you could have done about it" factor in them. So I run around taunt-hit capped. I feel I must. I feel that I lose a glyph slot because of it - I can't experiment with several glyph options because I need to be taunt hit capped or run the risk of that random wipe chance.
It's kinda like... giving a boss a chance to do a nasty enrage whenever a melee class hits him with more then 2 white attacks per second. That would force rogues to use slow mainhand weapons, and being forced in a direction like that is no fun.

Kojiyama
07-19-2010, 01:10 AM
I'm guessing the people who think that Taunt resists are fun never actually did 4 Horsemen when it was difficult progression content. ;)

Kahmal
07-19-2010, 01:59 AM
I'm guessing the people who think that Taunt resists are fun never actually did 4 Horsemen when it was difficult progression content. ;)

lol

Kahmal
07-19-2010, 02:00 AM
I'm guessing the people who think that Taunt resists are fun never actually did 4 Horsemen when it was difficult progression content. ;)

lol

uglybbtoo
07-19-2010, 07:51 PM
I'm guessing the people who think that Taunt resists are fun never actually did 4 Horsemen when it was difficult progression content. ;)

Did both the original and new Naxx as progression .. yeah you actually had to know how to tank was that so bad.

Bit like stance dancing on nightbane .. ah but that was too hard too and got removed :=)

Kojiyama
07-20-2010, 01:11 AM
Yeah, it's good to know my skill shows in server-side RNG. ;)

Martie
07-20-2010, 01:21 AM
Did both the original and new Naxx as progression .. yeah you actually had to know how to tank was that so bad.

Yes, because there being an x% chance of simply failing at something that is an essential part of the fight has something to do with knowing how to tank.
I remember my first time in Naxx. It was my first time doing any serious raid tanking as well - we had to work around paladin's lack of a normal taunt as well, it was annoying.

Teran
07-26-2010, 01:25 PM
I apologize in advance for length, I've been quite busy lately and fell behind.


Dropping your stacks is a lot easier them most people think, many people stay behind the Iceblock until there stack completly drops off, what they dont know is that they're actually wasting valuable time doing that. If you look closely at Sindragosa in phase 3 you'll notice that she pulses an Arcane Explosion like animation about every 3 seconds. Thats the magic debuff she applies, so really all you need to do is dip behind the Iceblock until your around 3 seconds wait for her to pulse again and then run back out even if you still have the debuff because it will fall off before she reapplies it.

We are aware of the animation however we have found that the moment of highest risk in the fight is a taunt switch just before or during a frost breath. We were at one point losing one or both tanks often when this happened so we decided to spend a little more time letting stacks drop so that the healers would not need to be switching targets in the midst of a high damage attack and could keep focused on a single tank.

Your method is preferable for overall efficiency but my guild just isn't at that point currently because we have limited healing resources.


Taunts miss for all classes, and they really shouldn't. Such a stupid thing that they miss, you have few oh shit buttons otherwise to grab back aggro during some boss fights, and the last thing you want is Lich King pimp slapping your DPS around because your taunt missed, or a Shambling Horror turning and smacking your ranged upside the head and one shotting them.

Attacks miss too, do you think hit rating should be removed from the game? Your argument seems to be that taunts missing make the game harder and they should be removed because that would make the game easier because the dps will no longer be getting pimp slapped. Maybe the dps should instead watch their threat... a taunt can't miss if it never needs to be used.



Taunting isn't exciting to begin with. Taunt's may have been meant to miss or not dunno. But IMHO a taunt should never miss. I hate the fact that I need to glyph for Righteous Defense just to reach 17% hit. I mean at least put it on the melee hit and not spell hit cap.

Taunting isn't exciting? I suppose it's not if you never miss. If you want to have a more exciting raid, drop all your hit gear and the glyph. If on the other hand you want to be a good tank, do your job and make sure the boss doesn't go kill the raid in an exciting fashion.


It doesn't dumb it down. Especially for classes with only one taunt. If a taunt misses, there's nothing you can do until it comes back off of CD, or until someone other than you manages to find a way to quickly shift threat to you. That's not fun, nor complicated, nor an interesting mechanic.

There are many ways to make tanking interesting and exciting, and something where skilled tanks can excel. Keeping taunts on spell hit so that they miss even when you're "hit capped" for most of your abilities is not one of those ways.

There is always something that can be done. Classes may have only one taunt, but every tanking class also has one fixate which forces the enemy to attack you without adjusting your threat level for a certain amount of time... enough time for your real taunt to come off cooldown. If you miss two in a row, gem for hit. In my current gear with the glyph, I miss maybe one taunt every other week. When this happens twice a month I am generally in a position where it either doesn't matter, or I can blow my aoe fixate and the problem is solved.



Darksend explained it pretty well, its no fun failing all you can eat on Sindy due to a taunt miss and the tank having no fall back second taunt. Wasn't fun, or exciting, just frustrating.

I have to disagree there. The only reason you might fail is if your tanks are unprepared or improperly gemmed and glyph'd for the fight. Honestly, who in their right mind would even attempt that without having their taunt miss chance removed? If you were frustrated, you have no one but the tank who missed the taunt to blame for not showing up to the raid prepared.


Have fun working out a 8% hit set that contains either high HP or high frost resistance to tank heroic Sindragosa.

I have main tanked heroic Sindragosa with hit (including taunt with glyph) and expertise (parry) capped and 70K+ hp. The other tank and I sat down and looked at the fight. We realized only her frost breath is any threat at all to a tank and that can easily be negated with a tight rotation or proactive use of cooldowns and trinkets so we chose to tank the fight without any frost resist gear and it worked out... Actually we had spent quite a bit of time wiping on her while wearing frost resist. If she wasn't so damn stingy with her trinket drop we'd be able to eliminate virtually all the risk in the fight from her frost breath.



I've had Taunt miss, realize it missed, hit Mocking blow, get that parried, realize it got parried, then hit aoe taunt! as blood beast spawned... and they raped my face... Awesome! glyphing taunt so I don't have to go through this, because it is really the ONLY hard part of the fight as a tank? kind of stupid...

You did a lot of things wrong in this situation. First, you're not hit capped. Second, your expertise is apparently not high enough... this could be debated but in the face of missing a critical mocking blow I think it's safe to say. Third, you apparently were not paying attention to the timers, given the choice of aoe taunting blood beasts onto yourself or letting Saurfang gain a few more blood points waiting on a refresh on your taunt cooldown, you should have opted for the blood points.



Tanking in Wrath is lame, missing a Taunt on Sindragosa makes it lamer.

Cataclysm is in beta, it's not too late to ask blizzard to just have tank classes come with included macros so they can just play themselves.



.....Rage? It's the Theory and Mechanics Discussion forum, were supposed to discuss such things, this is far from a stupid post that only a few people post on and shoot down as an irrelevant issue. And who knows this topic might have helped make Blizzard decide to put Taunt on the Hit table.

To be honest there isn't a lot of discussion going on. People are just saying they don't think misses should be able to happen in one breath and that the game is too boring in the next. Seems contradictory to me, but to each their own.


Skill has nothing to do with a taunt missing on a boss fight that requires a timely tank swap, such as Heroic Sindragosa. No one likes getting a boss to 5%, perfect execution, only to wipe because of something silly like a taunt missing and then secondary taunt missing/getting parried right after, when it was required, there's nothing skillful about it, just flawed design. And who said anything about taking out CC and fear? I think you are missing the point of the topic.

If a missed taunt were merely silly, then it wouldn't be a big deal. Since it is actually a big deal, a missed taunt is a scenario that should be taken seriously and planned for either by proper gearing and glyphing, or some other backup plan. I personally have built my tank in such a way that such a scenario never happens because I have planned ahead. Choosing a gear setup for your character requires time and intelligence, including pieces to increase effectiveness in certain situations is a sign of forethought and wisdom. Missing a taunt in a fight has everything to do skill because if you are 'Jim Anonymous'* using someone elses BiS list and didn't think for yourself about scenarios where a missed taunt is unacceptable then you have no one to blame but yourself.

*Note, I'm not accusing you or anyone else of being this guy, but we all know they exist.


I'm guessing the people who think that Taunt resists are fun never actually did 4 Horsemen when it was difficult progression content. ;)

The general complaint seems to be that tanks don't have enough to do in a fight. Chance to miss a taunt a factor warriors should have to take into account just like any other class has to take into account their chance to miss an attack... or do we really want warriors to always hit, always keep threat, and always successfully taunt with minimal action required by the player?



I'm sure Cataclysm will bring with it a lot of changes, but the chance to miss taunt is just an occupational hazard that each tank must work out for themselves based on personal and guild needs. All the people saying taunts shouldn't be able to miss sounded dangerously close to saying something to the effect of "Tanks shouldn't be able to die". It seems there's a fine line between having the game played for you and having fun.

Kazeyonoma
07-26-2010, 02:11 PM
you know... sometimes responding just isn't worth it.

With melee hit table for taunts in Cataclysm, lets just put this thread to rest.

Closed.