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View Full Version : Tanking Super Tank, does "it" exist?



DeathAdder
04-23-2010, 07:23 AM
Hi,
I read all the forums, guides, theories, etc for what and how to gear your tank, but....

When I look at most of the Tanks in the game, I see one capping the Hit and ignoring Expertise, another who is capping Expertise & ignoring Hit, but most players just "stamp" (almost) all their sockets with +30 Stamina.....????!!!!

I don't understand this really, what is the use of all these guides & theories when most just ignore it for Stamina?

So a Super Tank, should cap everything & have more stamina than a whole 10man party combined!! :p

I don't want detailed explanation for why should I do this or that, I read all tanking guides, I just want to know, should I ignore capping Expertise & Hit for the sake of large Stamina pool?


Note: Been tanking for 4 months now (Paladin) and I love it, I do HCs, VoA, ToC and ICC easily (but never ICC25 - gs 2.9 / 5.4 addon), but some times ppl comment about my low Health 38K unbuffed ('cus I do not do the +30 all sockets)

Need concise advice plz
Thanx :)

tuffmuffin
04-23-2010, 07:33 AM
Most of the time threat is hardly an issue for raid tanks, so usually they just go for the extra sruvivability that the pure stamina brings.
Moral of the story: If you don't need it, don't gem for it. No such thing as too much stamina.

Dreadski
04-23-2010, 08:11 AM
Basically this:
http://www.tankspot.com/showthread.php?65700-Expertise-Hit-and-your-Threat.-What-it-means-to-all-Tanks.-(Current-for-3.3.3)

Surivability > All

Quinafoi
04-23-2010, 08:14 AM
Effective health is the reason for stacking stamina. If you have enough health to survive being hit twice in a row, there is more time for your healers to land a heal. If you don't have enough health to survive two hits, then if you are unlucky and don't avoid a hit you are dead before a heal can land. That's the moral of the story.

The more hits you can take before you die, the more time there is for healers to heal you. You survive longer between heals.

Blayze
04-23-2010, 09:02 AM
Also, with ICC-level gear, it's very easy to hit the Hit and Expertise caps and given the Dodge and Parry on your gear, Diminishing Returns would make gemming for anything other than Stamina after that a waste.

TomHuxley
04-23-2010, 09:28 AM
Also, at least sometimes tanks may simply sign out in a different set than their "strutting-in-Dalaran" epeen gear. I have gear sets with hit and expertise capped (e.g. for trash) and ones where I don't worry about it (e.g. boss sets), although depending on your drops you can find yourself capped anyways with a threat stat (I would have to try to not be hit capped right now, although it's pretty easy to fall below the expertise softcap if I swap out one or two pieces from more survivability...just the RNG of what has dropped for me so far).

Blayze
04-24-2010, 03:01 AM
Tanking gear's good for Expertise, none of it's technically wasted. My Fury gear on the other hand has something ridiculous like 42 Expertise.

Dragaan
04-24-2010, 08:29 AM
Good tanks know how to swap their gear around. I know I don't use the same gearset all the time. Honestly...I think I swap gear for every single fight. I'm not sure if I wear the exact same gear on any 2 bosses (and obviously, I swap gear for trash as well). If you are just looking up tanks on the armory and figuring that's what they wear all the time, that's most likely not the case.

krc
04-24-2010, 01:01 PM
Good tanks know how to swap their gear around. I know I don't use the same gearset all the time. Honestly...I think I swap gear for every single fight. I'm not sure if I wear the exact same gear on any 2 bosses (and obviously, I swap gear for trash as well). If you are just looking up tanks on the armory and figuring that's what they wear all the time, that's most likely not the case.

^ This, every single boss in ICC has different mechanics, some require more pure EH, different types of MEH, additonal damage needed, etc...

Loremaster Roht
04-24-2010, 01:49 PM
I don't want detailed explanation for why should I do this or that, I read all tanking guides, I just want to know, should I ignore capping Expertise & Hit for the sake of large Stamina pool?



Here's my general priority list for tank stats:

1. Uncrittable vs Raid Bosses -- 540 Defense, or just the right buff/stance/presence/form in Cata.
2. "Enough" Effective Health (EH) -- You need to be able to survive the big hits. You can't tank when you're dead.
3. "Enough" Avoidance -- If you take too much damage, the healers can't keep up or run out of mana. You can't tank when you're dead.
3. "Enough" Threat -- You can't tank if you can't hold aggro.
4. Whatever is most useful for the encounter you're looking at right now.


"Enough" EH isn't a fixed number, it involves a lot of intangibles which depend on your raid group. Buffs and debuffs available, your own skill as a tank and the skills of your healers, your gear and their gear. It's generally agreed upon that you're never going to have "enough" EH when doing progression content (before anyone shoots off at this one), bosses hit obscenely hard and you're forced to use cooldowns to survive. One such definition of "enough" EH is that you're in absolutely no danger of dying unless you do something catastrophically stupid, or in other words a "Cat-on-the-Keyboard"-type error (new acronym -- CotK Error). You can extend this to not having to use defensive cooldown, not needing consumables like flasks or potions, and so on. You need a comfortable buffer to cover any mistakes.

"Enough" Avoidance is a fairly null concept these days due to current conditions, but was included for completeness. Bosses hit too hard for avoidance to be useful or reliable at all. Healers are NEVER running out of mana (based on what I've seen at least). In any event, the idea is the healers being unable to keep up with the damage you're taking over the course of the whole fight. Either their heals aren't big enough or their mana pool is finite (all while assuming they aren't undergeared, inappropriately geared, or doing anything wrong themselves). The idea may come into play for Cata, it may not.

"Enough" Threat is easily defined. Assuming DPS can always hold back as necessary to not pull aggro.... if they are always on your butt threat-wise and you don't beat the enrage timer, you need more threat stats. From there, it becomes a matter of convinience/smoothness/whatever-it's-called. Assuming you have more than "enough" EH, getting enough threat to allow the go all-out and never pull aggro is very nice for both you and them. Tank threat outputs got pushed pretty high for tanks this expansion and even if you don't have any additional threat stats, you're almost always guaranteed to have more than "enough" threat output. But DPS has been catching up, and with the ICC zone buff it's not quite so simple to stay ahead. You still need to survive, first and foremost.... but you may want to look at some threat increasing stats for the benefit of the raid if you find yourself with ample health.

From there, it's mostly whatever suits the encounter best. Multiple gear sets, or even just a few items you can switch in and out as necessary, helps out quite a bit. Some encounters need more EH, some more threat.... or perhaps just some more DPS to make things go that much faster (which is often the same as your threat stats). Trinkets are the easiest slot to swap in and out, and weapons as well to an extent. Slap on a DPS weapon or trinket if you have an excessive surplus of survivability.


You have to consider the whole situation, the present circumstances and all it's implications.
Threat is generally in excess, avoidance is currently too random to be effective, and surviving big hits is the main challenge for tanks right now.

You do not stack stam because it is awesome, you stack it because you need to survive big hits.

I think quite a few people gloss over the mechanics as to why people are stacking stam and almost nothing but these days, but there's a good reason for it. You should know however why they are doing it, and they have a very good reason. Bosses hit hard, and survival is the name of the tank game right now.

C°ndemned
04-24-2010, 09:54 PM
To some it up survivability is more important than anything else. This being said you get the most survivability by gemming stam over dodge/parry/def...etc. At the time threat should not be an issue for any tank class you do not want to gem or ench for hit/exp. If your having threat problems you should look into tweaking your rotation. The simple answer stack stam ignore everything else because stam is better

krc
04-25-2010, 09:55 AM
To some it up survivability is more important than anything else. This being said you get the most survivability by gemming stam over dodge/parry/def...etc. At the time threat should not be an issue for any tank class you do not want to gem or ench for hit/exp. If your having threat problems you should look into tweaking your rotation. The simple answer stack stam ignore everything else because stam is better

Partly incorrect, not just stamina but EH. For pure physical 1 stam = 11 armor, for magic you are going to have to look at this http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/index.php?f=6&t=26831&sid=f91ccab5c3230e48747cb7ab9e5d5663&rb_v=viewtopic