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Symbi
04-23-2010, 07:21 AM
Hello, I have been playing warrior for about a month (1-80+ raid time) so my knowledge of the class is limited. My guild is currently 10/12 in ICC and I have been having some threat issues in 10man as a warrior tank (obviously on bosses). While DPS don't pull complete aggro from me, top DPS will usually pull higher TPS. This issue mostly exists with a hunter in my group.

Just for a little background, when I start my "boss rotation" I will charge the boss and immediately shield slam for a big threat jump while I position the boss, after that I will take care of getting my sunder up to (5) with devastate. After this, I will just use shield slam, thunderclap, concussion blow and revenge whenever they are available (as well as devastate to refresh my stacks). This usually sets me up with pretty high initial threat, but the high DPS classes in my group are usually able to pull near the same amount of threat near the mid point of the encounter, and on occasion more than me near the end.

I keep shield block up whenever its available for that little extra bit of threat and mitigation.

Keep in mind that I'm not an experienced warrior user, and I leveled as fury so the prot spec and play style isn't really something I'm extremely comfortable with yet. Any advice or tips would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

Dreadski
04-23-2010, 08:08 AM
Rotation for bosses should be Shield Block > Shield Slam > Revenge > Shockwave > Devastate. Keeping tclap and conc blow on CD is gimping your threat for sure. Don't bother with conc blow unless you need to stun something, tclap every 30 seconds to keep the debuff on the boss, otherwise don't touch it. Can we have an armory link to make sure nothing about your spec or glyphs need tweaking?

Aggathon
04-23-2010, 08:11 AM
Actually shockwave is the highest threat (isn't it, or did that change and i dum?) and imo you should save shield block for times when you need it, but if you do need threat it is a good button to hit.

But ya, everything else.

Symbi
04-23-2010, 08:11 AM
No problem,
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Dalvengyr&cn=Zygomatic

boogi
04-23-2010, 08:27 AM
Shockwave is and isn't your biggest threat. Shield Slam, Revenge and Sunder do more threat if they land which is the big caveat. Shockwave can't be parried or dodged so it's a nice opener with trigger happy dps so you don't have to worry about parries or dodges (Shockwave can actually miss but the chance is very slim). I use Shockwave in my rotation beacause I'm usually running with low expertise and hit so I figure that Shockwaves threat is good on the overall too.

TomHuxley
04-23-2010, 08:59 AM
I presume you are putting Vigilance on your Hunter? Aside from that, as noted above Shield Slam > Revenge > Shockwave > Devastate are the only abilities you worry about from a threat-rotation point of view (remember guys, this is threat, not damage we are maximizing here). Also remember that with your Glyph of Devastate it only takes 3 Devastates to get to 5 stacks, so honestly I wouldn't worry about prioritizing it if threat is an issue, as you'll get 5 stacks in the first 12-15 seconds anyways.

Concussive Blow is just not a part of our boss rotation after the 3.3.1 nerf. Thunderclap is useful for the haste debuff, but not for threat, so only reapply it when it falls off. And if you haven't already, bind Heroic Strike to your mouse scroll wheel so you can make sure you are heroic-striking every GCD that you are above 40 rage...which should be almost the entire fight. Heroic Strike spam is a huge boost to single-target threat.

Vong
04-23-2010, 09:50 AM
Is your hunter putting MD on before you pick up boss as with that initial boost to your threat he shoudnt really catch you back up tbh. Also chuck Vig on him and as long as you have not got a stooopidly low expertise you should be fine.
Remember your dps are getting a 10% buff now whereas your threat isn't.
I've had a couple come close in our ten mans but with these steps you will be ok.
Good luck.

Dreadski
04-23-2010, 10:17 AM
Actually shockwave is the highest threat (isn't it, or did that change and i dum?) and imo you should save shield block for times when you need it, but if you do need threat it is a good button to hit.

But ya, everything else.

Well the exact prio of the 3 abilities is debatable, but all of them are much higher than Tclap and Conc blow....As long as those 3 are on CD above dev you're more than likely fine. Only thing I'd change is glyph of cleaving to something useful on bosses, unless that's just temporary for trash.

Airowird
04-25-2010, 12:43 AM
If you wonna know what move does the most threat with your gear ... see sig.

Generally it is Shield Slam > Revenge > Shockwave > Devastate.
Keep Shield Block up on the CD and only demo & TC to refresh the debuff.
If there is a Ret paladin in the raid, don't bother with Demo shout, and try to replace a Devastate when you TC for minimal threat loss.

Also, I would advise to replace the Glyph of Blocking with a Glyph of Shield Wall, but that can be debated.

Dragaan
04-25-2010, 02:05 AM
Shockwave can't be parried or dodged so it's a nice opener with trigger happy dps so you don't have to worry about parries or dodges...

Shockwave can be dodged, but not parried.

madocks
04-25-2010, 05:47 AM
As mentioned above, In addition to your rotation, spam HS when tanking bosses. Rage shouldnt be an issue for you on boss fights, its a bucket load of threat added

Dreadski
04-25-2010, 07:15 AM
If you wonna know what move does the most threat with your gear ... see sig.

Generally it is Shield Slam > Revenge > Shockwave > Devastate.
Keep Shield Block up on the CD and only demo & TC to refresh the debuff.
If there is a Ret paladin in the raid, don't bother with Demo shout, and try to replace a Devastate when you TC for minimal threat loss.

Also, I would advise to replace the Glyph of Blocking with a Glyph of Shield Wall, but that can be debated.


I get angry because every single ret in my guild has pursuit of justice instead of vindication. I just want to make them all splat.

Airowird
04-25-2010, 07:53 AM
I get angry because every single ret in my guild has pursuit of justice instead of vindication. I just want to make them all splat.

Well if they're top DPS, just let em pull aggro once in a while on a farm fight and blame it on having to refresh Demo too often :P (make sure to tell the other threat wh***s to be careful ofcourse ). Sometimes people don't want to play team untill you teach them to :)

Amaranthine
04-25-2010, 09:45 AM
Were i you I'd drop your glyph of cleaving and add in glyph of vigilance, that will DEFINITELY help you on threat. Also, there're a few fights where i toss vigilance around a couple of different people.

Usually i put it on our top DK first b/c he has silly burst aggro, then about 30-45 seconds into the fight i toss it onto the mage (first mage i've ever seen who out TPS's hunters o.O)

As for the rotation i do very similiar to you shield slam>revenge>shockwave>devastate. I never use conc blow, i never am in a rush to stack sunders, and i always keep TC and demo shout up . I never really have much of an issue with threat.

Hope that advice helps! Good luck in there!

edit: I also am spamming heroic strike about 95% of the time

Dreadski
04-25-2010, 09:54 AM
Shockwave can be dodged, but not parried.

Eh? How so?

Sirloinsteak
04-25-2010, 11:39 AM
ok this is how i teach all the new warriors in my guild in the easiest way to pull threat as a warrior .... step 1. glyph of devastate and heroic strike, step 2. macro/bind your heroic strike to your devastate, step 3 open with heroic throw, shield block, shield slam and spam the hell out of your macro and pop everything else as it comes off cd but always revert back to smashing your macro in between ... spaming that dev/heroic strike macro alone should hold about 7-8k tps pretty consistently, so its easy to pull high threat as your moving as well ... as u should know u can still attack a boss when ur strafing if he is in malee range

so as an example just say you had the number 2 as your macro and 5 as every other ability u have (for the sake of the demonstration) your start should be 555 22222252222225222222222522222222222225222252222222 252222225222222, if u spam it fast enough u will devastate every time the gcd is up and you'll heroic strike with every white swing and when sword and board proc u quickly hit it then instantly straight back to the macro as with all your other abilities ... if any one can pull off u doing that they must be pulling like 13k dps and have no threat reduction abilities because we have people in our guild that can pull 11k dps and no one comes close to pulling off me.

and yes you can do this with just devastate as well but the heroic strike binding makes a lot of difference if threat is what your after.

Vlad
04-25-2010, 10:52 PM
What the guy above is saying in you need this macro:
/cast Devastate
/cast Heroic Strike.

Boss rotation is:
Charge/SS/macro, and spam revenge when ever it's up.

Trash rotation is:
Charge/clap/SW/macro (you probably won't need this for trash), and spam revenge and clap when ever it's up, don't forget to tab target to track threat and spread the revenge love around.

My warrior is an alt and has a slightly old school build (5/15/51) which is better for survivabilty because of imp demo and CS.. and staying alive is your job, not dps. Personally I think warriors who think they need bleeds to hold aggro/dps are misguided.
I'm no pro but 10k tps on a boss is normal, 15k+ is not unusual.
I'm actually gonna get around to dropping Vig at some point because I just don't need it.

Dreadski
04-26-2010, 04:48 AM
Macro-ing heroic strike to anything is a great way to run yourself dry on rage. Also the post above mine is incredibly uninformed. The Deep Wounds bleed is a free way to add plenty of extra DPS to the boss. No one said it was anywhere near "necessary", but it's been a staple in the cookie cutter warrior build for the entire expansion, because the alternative 5/15/51 is useful on a handful of hardmodes. Also dropping vigilance is...silly. It's free threat, and the number of uses is unlimited.

Vlad
04-27-2010, 03:06 AM
I can't say I've ever had rage problems.. mebbe in vanilla but not since then that I can think of. Our dps are pretty brutal so I can't say raid dps has been a problem, and even though they're good they've never pulled off this "alt".. Do you have a problem holding lolaggro?

Also isn't it your job to stay alive? last time I checked more health and dmg reduction help that better than deep wounds.. It always makes me lol when tanks go to the trouble of adding stam enchants to shoulders and gloves but somehow justify skipping imp CS.

Sure 5/15/51 is a personal preference, but at least I have a solid argument why I would choose it..

Dreadski
04-27-2010, 04:59 AM
Excuse me, I typo'ed. What I meant to say was the alternative 5/15/51 build is only necessary on a tiny handful of hardmode bosses, namely Sindragosa and Lich King. I did give a valid reason for choosing this spec most of the time...simply because you reject my reality and substitute your own is no reason to say my statement is invalid. So you prefer 500~ extra HP, that's great and I'm happy for you. I didn't say I have trouble holding lolaggro, that's your assumption, though I mentioned nothing about threat, I mentioned DPS and why it's a bad reason to drop vigilance from your spec, it just has too much utility. What are you going to do with 1 point anyway? 1/2 reflect? 1/2 disarm? Oh, I got it. 1/2 imp rend, right? Please.

Vlad
04-27-2010, 05:07 AM
max out incite to help with trash, sticking with 51 points in prot means vig is the weakest ability if you're way ahead on threat which pretty much every tank is nowadays.
And I plan to start doing HM's on my warrior and priest now I've done em all in 10's on my DK, so prob thats why I'm surv focussed.

Dreadski
04-27-2010, 05:32 AM
Link your exact spec, if you would.

Casja
04-27-2010, 09:33 AM
For burst aggro i like to heroic throw then charge SS. Then I always put vig on the strongest melee in the group since melee threat is higher than ranged threat and if a hunter pulls off and dies learn to MD k thx bai. When i am tanking in our progression 10m our mage pulls anywhere from 10-13k depending on fight and i never have issues with him. Also i know this is anti-rage but i bing HS to every ability because i tend to stay hit capped and close to exp cap so i never have any rage issues unless i am OT. But my guild all works well together. Our best geared tank is a pally but I do most of the MT on boss because i can out threat him and as a OT i am always rage starved and we risk a aggro loss on the initial swap if i dont pull first.

Vlad
04-27-2010, 02:30 PM
Link your exact spec, if you would.

Its this right now http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZhg00xZVGtrx0zVdIzsGo so when I get around to it I'll drop the vig to 3/3 incite because it's handy for pulling trash of the other tank in fights like LK etc, I could probably get rid of conc blow too but it's handy for chain CCing one of the saurfang adds along with SW while it get's burned by the melee (we only have one ranged dps in our grp :/ ). I thought about dropping some points in crueltly to max demo out.. dunno, it's just that with so much excess threat it seems silly for me to spec threat talents.
I guess vig is nice for an undergeared OT on something like HM fester or dual enraged mobs on LK, but we just CD it.. I get to heal them on my priest each week too and they're stupidly easy fights anyways.

One thing I don't get is why HM LK isn't a requirement to get your mount.. not that I'm complaining :) , I guess it's the difference between doing alone and one light..
Oh yeah, love the cat raiding changes! even though we have 400+ toons in our guild we struggle to get 25 competent ppl together so for progression 10's are it for us I'm afraid.

Kazeyonoma
04-27-2010, 02:50 PM
you're having problems doing threat, but then you don't get full incite, or deepwounds or impale, also for survivability you gimp yourself by picking up 5/5 crit instead of 5/5 imp demo, and now you're gonna drop VIGILANCE? which is free 10% threat for 5% more crit on 3 of your situational rage dump/aoe abilities?

I'm sorry but I fail to see the rationale here.

Do your rotation right. Spec/Glyph accordingly. Utilize Tricks/MD. That's all you need.

Dreadski
04-27-2010, 04:28 PM
Its this right now http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZhg00xZVGtrx0zVdIzsGo so when I get around to it I'll drop the vig to 3/3 incite because it's handy for pulling trash of the other tank in fights like LK etc, I could probably get rid of conc blow too but it's handy for chain CCing one of the saurfang adds along with SW while it get's burned by the melee (we only have one ranged dps in our grp :/ ). I thought about dropping some points in crueltly to max demo out.. dunno, it's just that with so much excess threat it seems silly for me to spec threat talents.
I guess vig is nice for an undergeared OT on something like HM fester or dual enraged mobs on LK, but we just CD it.. I get to heal them on my priest each week too and they're stupidly easy fights anyways.

One thing I don't get is why HM LK isn't a requirement to get your mount.. not that I'm complaining :) , I guess it's the difference between doing alone and one light..
Oh yeah, love the cat raiding changes! even though we have 400+ toons in our guild we struggle to get 25 competent ppl together so for progression 10's are it for us I'm afraid.

You know what else is handy for pulling trash off the OT on LK?? Vigilance.

Dreadski
04-27-2010, 04:35 PM
You know what else is handy for pulling trash off the OT on LK?? Vigilance.

Also Kaze made a good point about demo shout, however if you have good rets in the raid that take vindication it's really up to you. For a spec I'd prefer something like http://www.wowhead.com/talent#LVZGV00xZVItrx0didczsho:crTomM instead...maxing out on more effective talents and minimizing less useful ones. Debatable to take two points from somewhere and put them in safeguard as well, depends on raid makeup. I don't know why you would not take imp disciplines though. Boggling.

Airowird
04-27-2010, 04:43 PM
@Vlad:
I like the fact that you feel you can dump Vigilance (which is a total of 20% threat buffer you gain without having to do anything in a fight), but you still have 2/2 Damage Shields. In fact, if you think threat is so lol ....
* Why don't you move the points from Armored to the Teeth to Imp Demo?
* Why do you have Incite, Imp. Revenge, 1H Spec, Sword & Board or Damage Shield while you could pick up Imp. Spell Reflect, Imp. Disciplines or Safeguard? All which do what you want fro a tank, reduce damage taken!! (And you'ld still have 8 'less useful' points left for DPS talents)
* Why don't you put your spec & gear in my spreadsheet and show us how much threat you actually average out? (rather than throw out a range that covers the entire ICC gearing scope)

Not to bash you, but you can't just come around and say to the people that have thouroughly tested all the talents and come up with the current 'standards' and just make bold statements without any evidence to back it up, especially if your own spec contradicts what you say.

Adrael
04-27-2010, 09:17 PM
@Vlad
Hi there.

The specs you posted above are not ideal for either survivability or threat. An ideal survivability specs would have imp. Demo Shout for mitigation (as Kaze suggested). Plus, these specs are only useful for a handful of bosses, although if you don't have problems with threat you can use it on any boss for more mitigation and HP.

The Deep Wound build is a better choice for threat generation. But other than that:
- Shield Specialization isn't too useful for either threat of survivability, while Incite is great.
- Focused Rage help a lot with rage issues (if you find yourself starved)
- Damage Shield is great for AoE tanking.

Glyphs is something that was discussed here, but generally a glyph for imp. Dev is the best single glyph for extra threat. However, if you have a high DPS that constantly pulls off threat, you might wanna consider imp. Vigi. I use that one.

Further more, sometimes it helps having dual specs, for sustainability and DPS/TPS.


Cheers!

Vlad
04-27-2010, 11:59 PM
Wartotem:
Yeah moving some point to demo are probably what I need to do, I haven't looked too hard at it but it's probably a change I'll make.
Imp disciplines isn't something I've found I've needed, SW just isnt really used much more oftne than the standard CD. And since I tend to off CD SB/LS and maybe a GS if we're really worried, it could be worthwhile if I had to deal with something that hits really hard on a short CD but there isn't anything out there right now.. we don't even bother with tanks swaps on soul reaper, but then again we're only doing it in 10.. so a little easier I'm sure. The only really scary boss I can ever think of is maybe broodlord's massive shots, or algalon's brutal beatings..
I have thought about spell reflect but the spells that matter usually arn't reflectable, and I have to disagree about shield spec, the extra rage generated is what allows macro spamming.. 5% block is nothing to be sniffed at either. Safeguard is a waste.
I think the original point I was trying to make was if you're already miles ahead on threat, isn't it better to spec some more survivability?

Adrael: yeah dual tanking specs is a good idea, esp since prot dps is already pretty good.

Prucilak
04-28-2010, 10:36 AM
I have HS and Dev right next to each other on my bartender.

Get a MD from the hunter, Do a heroic throw at the same time as a charge, then doing TC and SS. Start doing HS/Dev/HS/Dev/HS/Dev till you gain 5 stacks. Use SS/Revenge whenever its on cooldown.

The way I choose who to vigilance, find a high threat class (lock/hunter/rogue/dk.) I also usually choose who is going to have the most time fighting the boss. Such as saurfang, its a bad idea to put it on a ranged.

I pull 7-9k threat full time and can burst to 13k in short spans, depending on crits. If I'm not careful, I can easily pull aggro from my OT in ICC and such. :(

Bladesong
04-28-2010, 11:40 AM
@ OP

There's a ton of good advice here that you should follow which will greatly improve your threat. I just wanted to add that you should never sweat a hunter who is breathing down your neck on threat - if they get too close they can use Misdirection to transfer some threat to you or they can Feign Death and completely wipe their threat.

Question for everyone - If survivability/Def minimum isn't an issue, then wouldn't a slow dps weapon add to threat?

Crommi
04-28-2010, 04:56 PM
Question for everyone - If survivability/Def minimum isn't an issue, then wouldn't a slow dps weapon add to threat?
I was under the impression that fast weapons are better for threat due to Heroic Strike and slower are better for DPS with Devastate spam.