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Carterhova
04-21-2010, 08:11 AM
I believe some of our DPS are under performing. We were lucky to get where we did last night.

If you are familar with Logs could you take a look at this and tell me what you think?

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/zbijkss5jdpjr5ut/

Thanks so much for your time.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 08:15 AM
Wiped on LDW by doing the weekly quest there the first time. Not sure where the DBS fight went to either. I will look for it as well

Jakhammer
04-21-2010, 08:20 AM
I'm only looking at Festergut right now, since it's the best case scenario to check your dps issues.

Edit: I see Whumper is your Resto. Scratch my previous comment.

gacktt
04-21-2010, 08:36 AM
7.6k top is extremely low, and the guys doing 5-6k is unacceptable. A 245/251 raid should be doing 8k+

Jakhammer
04-21-2010, 08:47 AM
No, 7.6k top is not extremely low for this group. It's ICC10, with players who are clearly not progressed. However, the mage doing 5k dps on Festergut is 100% unacceptable.

But honestly, your biggest problem is your raid's awareness. Whumper stood in a death and decay for a full 3+ seconds on LDW, there were a string if deaths resulting from un-interrupted Frostbolts, your tanks were continueously losing aggro (killed your rogue & ret paladin... both of which have ways of completely avoiding aggro issues). A low dps group can survive just fine in ICC10, if they know how to avoid basic mechanics.

You're group isn't raid aware, and that's your deaths.

Bashal
04-21-2010, 08:53 AM
for ICC 10 Festergut, if you have 3 healers, the average DPS needed per DPSer is 5.6k on normal mode to just barely make the enrage timer.

If you use two healers, which is less safe, the required average drops to 4.7k.

But in both cases, you're cutting it very close.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 08:54 AM
I, Whumper, stood in DnD because I didn't want to died by our Quest guy. Darren(sp). Either move and died by DnD or die by him hitting me. We had our hunter's pet having agro on him. I Pulled off by healing agro. Ret pally/rogue died because RL called to wipe it because our quest died due to some AoE.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 08:55 AM
I believe we were 2 healing Festergut. We only 3 Heal Rotface because we have 1 healer run with our Off Tank.

Jakhammer
04-21-2010, 09:07 AM
I, Whumper, stood in DnD because I didn't want to died by our Quest guy. Darren(sp). Either move and died by DnD or die by him hitting me. We had our hunter's pet having agro on him. I Pulled off by healing agro. Ret pally/rogue died because RL called to wipe it because our quest died due to some AoE.

Alright, that makes more sense then.

Regarding Darnavan. You can two tank this fight, and the tanks only can be responsible for Darnavan. Of course, using two druid tanks is a more difficult comp, but they just need to tank Darnavan next to LDW (a good 20 yards away) up on the stage, and taunt switch as needed. During the first phase, only one tank is needed anyhow.

Regarding the rest: Interrupts on Frostbolts are required. They are spaced SO FAR apart that a DK dps (or even tank) can solo-interrupt with his Mind Freeze ability. The Cult Adherents need to be the first to die, with the fanatics second. Stay away from the ghosts (saw a few deaths to that) and move out of DnD right away. These are all completely avoidable damage sources, and this will greatly improve your progression if executed correctly.

As long as your DPS are burning the same targets, you won't have a problem with LDW rezzing one of them. If they all take forever to go down, then good luck getting time to DPS LDW herself.

I see you are using a two-healing method for Festergut, and nobody died except for you right at the beginning (tank aggro issues?). Your overall DPS for the fight is fine, but your mage is slacking.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 09:10 AM
Yeah I was calling out Ghosts over vent. but people kept getting hit by them.. No idea why they don't move to avoid DMG but you got me. Died at beginning on Festergut because I ran with the tank and put Riptide on him. Figured he would charge in, but didn't.

Quinafoi
04-21-2010, 09:33 AM
Lets start with the top end, the rogue that in general was the highest DPS.

They are glyphed for Tricks of the Trade...
They cast it... 1 time on Festergut, 1 time on Rotface, 0 times on Lady Deathwhisper, and 2 times on Lord Marrowgar for a total of 4 times on bosses. He also cast it twice on trash or before bosses.

That's +15% damage for 10 seconds every 30 seconds for someone else not being used. He also has the tier 10 two piece bonus which makes the ability free and actually causes it to generate energy instead. Even if they are just using it on the tank, it would still help. Ideally your tanks would have sufficient threat that he could use it on another DPS to buff the overall raid DPS. For example, on the Festergut fight they could have applied Tricks of the Trade about 5 additional times which if used on the next highest DPS, the retribution paladin, would have resulted in about 56,000 additional damage dealt by the paladin or an increase of 280 effective DPS (a 3.8% increase for the paladin overall). Additionally, Expose Armor may also have increased the DPS generated by both feral druids, the retribution paladin, and the hunter in exchange for some of the rogues dps. That you'd have to experiment with though because you don't want to take too much away from the rogue.

While you may like to focus your attention on the low performers, it seems that the majority of the raid is underperforming, including the top end.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 09:36 AM
Wow. Never thought about it that way Quinafoi. Thanks for your insight.

Kraul
04-21-2010, 09:51 AM
No, 7.6k top is not extremely low for this group. It's ICC10, with players who are clearly not progressed. However, the mage doing 5k dps on Festergut is 100% unacceptable.

But honestly, your biggest problem is your raid's awareness. Whumper stood in a death and decay for a full 3+ seconds on LDW, there were a string if deaths resulting from un-interrupted Frostbolts, your tanks were continueously losing aggro (killed your rogue & ret paladin... both of which have ways of completely avoiding aggro issues). A low dps group can survive just fine in ICC10, if they know how to avoid basic mechanics.

You're group isn't raid aware, and that's your deaths.

THIS.

To compare. this is my guilds last ICC festergut kill. With 3 healers.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-oszamb8q9aejknfm/sum/damageDone/?s=6091&e=6366

We've also killed Rotface and now the Princes with that kind of DPS. Does it make it more challenging? Sure. Do you run up against enrage timers? All the time. But you can kill bosses with out everyone in the raid being over 6K dps in ICC 10.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 09:54 AM
Well some of our raiders also have 25m Gear and are pretty much full 251 gear atleast. We only 3 heal Rotface and have tried both 2 healing Rotface/Professor but 3 healers make it easier on us, but harder for the DPS. But with the gear currently 6k DPS is not something too bold to say as a minimum

Quinafoi
04-21-2010, 09:57 AM
It's easy to look at someone and say 5k dps is too low, the other guy is doing 7k. However if you do that you tend to overlook the fact that 7k dps is too low, that other person is possably underperforming as well. You have to basically do an audit of everyone to find where the gaps are.

Kraul
04-21-2010, 10:02 AM
It's easy to look at someone and say 5k dps is too low, the other guy is doing 7k. However if you do that you tend to overlook the fact that 7k dps is too low, that other person is possably underperforming as well. You have to basically do an audit of everyone to find where the gaps are.

Exactly and even audit what they are doing. For a while we had a rogue who was one of our top DPS. But early on we had trouble downing Marrogar. Then I looked at the log and noticed that top DPSer was doing absouletly no damage to the bonespikes. After a specific talk with him and a general discusion to all raiders about the importance of that, Marrow was soon on farm.

I don't even look at our logs for the basic numbers anymore. You have to dig in there deep to really analyze.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 10:07 AM
Yeah Just talked to our Rogue. He only has ToT macro'd to my DK. Thats why he never used to as much as he normally does. Will work on that.

IgnusFatus
04-21-2010, 10:14 AM
Quina hit the nail on the head really. I'll just throw in my obserations on the Shadow priest.

Looking at Festergut, Your spriest had DoT uptimes on VT of 85% and devouring plague at 72.5%. This is much too low for 2 spells that should be at least > 90%, preferably as close to 100 as you can get. That said, your priest also could unequip his hit trinket and still be hit capped. Just because something is ilvl 245 doesn't mean it's right for your gear setup. He could buy the emblem of heroism trinket and be doing higher dps. The last thing I noticed is that he has his 4pc t10 and a decent amount of haste. This means he can probabl drop mind blast from his rotation completely (including the 5 talent points) and use mind flay instead for a dps increase.

All of these things are easily found from many reliable sources on the internet. Encourage your raiders to research their classes outside of raid time, and be sure to point out that even if they're the top now, a 500 dps improvement for them is the same for the raid as a 500 dps improvement from the guy at the bottom. Everyone is in it together.

Quinafoi
04-21-2010, 10:16 AM
Yeah Just talked to our Rogue. He only has ToT macro'd to my DK. Thats why he never used to as much as he normally does. Will work on that.

They should change it to use focus.


#showtooltip
/focus [mod:alt]
/cast [@focus,help,nodead] [] Tricks of the Trade

That way if their priority changes, they can easily change it by changing their focus. For example on Blood-Queen Lana'thel, they may want to use Tricks of the Trade on the tank first, however after that they may switch to the first person who was bitten. They can use a macro like that where if they hold the modifier alt, it will set their focus and tricks their current target. If they already have a focus set and don't hold alt it will go to their existing focus. And if they don't have a focus and aren't holding alt it would just cast tricks on their current target.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 10:17 AM
Okay. Thanks for all the responses I will be directly my team to check out this post and to look up more info on their classes. If you see anything else that can be helped. Please let me know.

Thanks so much for the time and responses.

Carterhova
04-21-2010, 04:07 PM
So I am going to assume that. Our group is under performing as a whole. Top, Middle and Low DPS all have something to work on as well as everyone being more Raid Aware. IE: Interupting Frost bolts, moving from DND, not standing infront of slime spary etc.

Quinafoi
04-21-2010, 04:12 PM
Yes and stay out of those whelp caves, that's a 50 DKP minus.

Jagarr
04-22-2010, 04:22 AM
Reading the responses has been a nice wakeup call so to speak. Now the trick is going to be getting everyone in our guild to read this thread and take it as an opportunity to correct some problems that have been nagging at us for a few weeks now. Thanks everyone for the constructive criticism.

Skyru
04-26-2010, 09:03 AM
I, Whumper, stood in DnD because I didn't want to died by our Quest guy. Darren(sp). Either move and died by DnD or die by him hitting me. We had our hunter's pet having agro on him. I Pulled off by healing agro. Ret pally/rogue died because RL called to wipe it because our quest died due to some AoE.

It was mentioned you are a resto shaman right? If you have issues like this in the future create a focus macro with windshear and use it whenever it comes off cd. It reduces threat and is off the gcd so you don't have to stop healing to use it.

Likewise you could do the same thing with LDW to help interrupt the frost bolts... sure you have a -17% chance to hit but if it means saving the tanks life I think its worth it to spend the little bit of mana.

You can beat the encounters by over gearing and brute force... or take a lesser geared group and use all the tools available to make it happen. Doesn't seem like either one is happening for you at the moment.